US Government Shutdown

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Meiam:
GOP control the senate, GOP control the congress (for now), GOP control the supreme court but apparently no one is in control of the presidency.

That would require the adults in the Party and Congress to discipline our toddler-in-chief every time he throws a Temper Tantrum. Which apparently they're terrified of doing so they just let him cry and kick and scream over and over again with this "Well, nothing to be done. He's just like that" enabling excuse.

I mean, that's assuming there are any adults in the GOP at this point, which I'm increasingly skeptical about.

Dalisclock:

Agema:

Adam Jensen:

No, I think that it's literally retarded to vote for someone because they promised to build a [best case scenario] useless wall. Congratulations on your advanced thinking.

The wall might be useless. But at least it is a symbol of trying to do something. For people who have spent decades being ignored, or betrayed by those polticians who offered false promises, it means someone has finally listened to them.

Well, Pretends to listen to them. I've yet to see what Trump has done for the poor or the working class.

Unless he means the white people afraid that brown people are taking their jobs and their guns and their religion, in which case, he actually is listening to them and stoking their fears.

People really only want theatre that plays to their ideas of Here's Who's Fucking You Over (tm). They don't really want to bother with the complex and disappointing subtleties of 'Actually there are several different interests and power structures which contribute to the current situation of which your personal experience is actually only a small part of the overall picture' which require the dangerously intellectual, unmanly and unpatriotic degenerative conditions of Instrospection and Analysis.
That shit's for degenerate liberal pinkos.

Palindromemordnilap:
So we can all point to this when we're trying to explain toxic masculinity in future, right?

Calling it 'toxic masculinity' is honestly giving it a looooooot of undue credit.

Seanchaidh:

No, that doesn't mean closing our borders. It means working on the project of socialist internationalism..

Thanks for link to https://blacksocialists.us/our-strategy Reviewing. More below...

Abomination:

Someone has to sweep the streets, clean the gutters, and maintain the roads.

Income disparity is not driven by immigration,

There are plenty Union bosses that would beg to differ.

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

I don't know if its still the case but Paris used to be spotless. Plenty of well paid government servants did sweep the streets. Heck, I'd love the gig if it paid enough.

ITMT: I'm feeling pretty disillusioned about the concept of self government. Just gotta figure out how to make my way in the world that is.

image

Gorfias:

Abomination:

Someone has to sweep the streets, clean the gutters, and maintain the roads.

Income disparity is not driven by immigration,

There are plenty Union bosses that would beg to differ.

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

I don't know if its still the case but Paris used to be spotless. Plenty of well paid government servants did sweep the streets. Heck, I'd love the gig if it paid enough.

ITMT: I'm feeling pretty disillusioned about the concept of self government. Just gotta figure out how to make my way in the world that is.

Plenty of Union bosses would be wrong too.

In every scenario where the minimum wage has been increased the "trickle down" economists have been proven time and again their predictions were incorrect. Not only did inflation not increase at the rates they speculated, but it more often than not DECREASED.

Federally mandated employment reform is needed and it needs to HEAVILY favour employees in the United States. The economy is circling the drain and being propped up by debt spending. The money is being generated from nothing and that big bubble of air is bound to burst.

That the minimum wage is so low in the US and that worker rights are almost non-existent is an outright travesty. It is an employment CONTRACT and there needs to be stipulations for it ending without proper compensation. An employee needs a buffer (usually in the way of paid holiday time accrued) so that if they are to be replaced, and their source of income destroyed, the company needs to consider the cost of doing so. There is so much wrong with the system in the 'States and the "too big to fail" mentality is going to backfire so godsdamned hard.

Gorfias:
I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

Try reading "By Light Alone" by Adam Roberts. It's a semi-comedic look at a future virtually without jobs - the super-rich live off investments, the poor have been given photosynthetic hair so don't even need welfare for food, and that just leaves a vastly attenuated middle class filling a few roles automation hasn't yet managed to take over.

Dalisclock:
Well, Pretends to listen to them. I've yet to see what Trump has done for the poor or the working class.

Absolutely nothing, obviously.

But if the Democrats haven't made their lives significantly materially better, they're ripe for the electoral picking by anyone who flatters their preconceptions. After all, given the choice between someone who does nothing for you and calls you a racist bigot and someone who does nothing for you but tells you you're what makes America great, you'll take the latter.

Agema:

Absolutely nothing, obviously.

But if the Democrats haven't made their lives significantly materially better, they're ripe for the electoral picking by anyone who flatters their preconceptions. After all, given the choice between someone who does nothing for you and calls you a racist bigot and someone who does nothing for you but tells you you're what makes America great, you'll take the latter.

Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

erttheking:
Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

I'd also note that not all working class or poor people are cishet and white. And the working class or poor people being called racist bigots aren't generally being called that just because they are working class or poor.

Thaluikhain:

erttheking:
Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

I'd also note that not all working class or poor people are cishet and white. And the working class or poor people being called racist bigots aren't generally being called that just because they are working class or poor.

People act like there aren't tons of poor urban people of color.

Agema:

Try reading "By Light Alone" by Adam Roberts.

Thanks! $6 on Kindle. There was a movie with a similar plot with regards to a returning child that has radically changed causing family to suspect he's not really the missing kid. Based on a true story. No Audible version :-( Downloading shortly.

erttheking:

Agema:

Absolutely nothing, obviously.

But if the Democrats haven't made their lives significantly materially better, they're ripe for the electoral picking by anyone who flatters their preconceptions. After all, given the choice between someone who does nothing for you and calls you a racist bigot and someone who does nothing for you but tells you you're what makes America great, you'll take the latter.

Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

The man who promised them a big wall also promised he'd bring jobs back and (disingenuously) attacked the sort of trade deals (which is to say investor protection treaties) that destroyed those towns. And what were Hillary's plans for these towns? Did she communicate them effectively? Were they even close to adequate to the task?

Seanchaidh:

erttheking:

Agema:

Absolutely nothing, obviously.

But if the Democrats haven't made their lives significantly materially better, they're ripe for the electoral picking by anyone who flatters their preconceptions. After all, given the choice between someone who does nothing for you and calls you a racist bigot and someone who does nothing for you but tells you you're what makes America great, you'll take the latter.

Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

The man who promised them a big wall also promised he'd bring jobs back and (disingenuously) attacked the sort of trade deals (which is to say investor protection treaties) that destroyed those towns. And what were Hillary's plans for these towns? Did she communicate them effectively? Were they even close to adequate to the task?

And just look at all these jobs he brought back. And on the campaign trail Hillary was against those deals too. Don't let your hatred of the Democrats make Trump look like a good guy, he hasn't earned it.

They were more than the nothing that Trump had to offer.

Gorfias:

Agema:

Try reading "By Light Alone" by Adam Roberts.

Thanks! $6 on Kindle. There was a movie with a similar plot with regards to a returning child that has radically changed causing family to suspect he's not really the missing kid. Based on a true story. No Audible version :-( Downloading shortly.

I can't do this reading thing anymore and get disappointed when its not listenable

erttheking:

Seanchaidh:

erttheking:

Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns voted more for the man who promised them a big wall, I feel like pride is coming before self-interest.

The man who promised them a big wall also promised he'd bring jobs back and (disingenuously) attacked the sort of trade deals (which is to say investor protection treaties) that destroyed those towns. And what were Hillary's plans for these towns? Did she communicate them effectively? Were they even close to adequate to the task?

And just look at all these jobs he brought back.

Nowhere did I say he was credible.

erttheking:
And on the campaign trail Hillary was against those deals too.

After having been for them. And having said that sometimes you need to have a public position and a private position. Her credibility was about as tarnished as Donald's.

erttheking:
Don?t let your hatred of the Democrats make Trump look like a good guy, he hasn?t earned it.

They were more than the nothing that Trump had to offer.

They were less than the lies Trump DID offer. And never did I say that lying made Trump a good guy. We're talking about what we can infer about people by how they voted, not whether Trump is a good guy.

Seanchaidh:

erttheking:

Seanchaidh:

The man who promised them a big wall also promised he'd bring jobs back and (disingenuously) attacked the sort of trade deals (which is to say investor protection treaties) that destroyed those towns. And what were Hillary's plans for these towns? Did she communicate them effectively? Were they even close to adequate to the task?

And just look at all these jobs he brought back.

Nowhere did I say he was credible.

erttheking:
And on the campaign trail Hillary was against those deals too.

After having been for them. And having said that sometimes you need to have a public position and a private position. Her credibility was about as tarnished as Donald's.

erttheking:
Don?t let your hatred of the Democrats make Trump look like a good guy, he hasn?t earned it.

They were more than the nothing that Trump had to offer.

They were less than the lies Trump DID offer. And never did I say that lying made Trump a good guy. We're talking about what we can infer about people by how they voted, not whether Trump is a good guy.

Then don't act like Trump was a reasonable alternative.

And? Trump used to be a Democrat. Didn't stop Republicans from voting for him.

Trump said nothing about helping rural towns, just some vague nonsense about coal jobs, and most rural towns jumped, even the ones without coal jobs. I get it, you hate the establishment, but that doesn't change that people voted for Trump against their own self interest

See I'd like to shake my head about this but I really can't since our illustrious Prime Minister has managed to finagle it so that there are only six sitting days for Parliament between now and the May election.

A pox upon both their houses, and I hope they get naught but coal and dry pigeon shit for Christmas.

erttheking:
Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns

Pity she didn't make more noise about that in her electoral campaigns, because whilst I'm not American, the only ones I saw seemed to be about portraying Trump as a sex attacker.

That's not so bad per se, but when your opponents are characterising a candidate as a "women and minorities first and stuff the rest" liberal, it kind of helps reinforce that attack.

trunkage:
I can't do this reading thing anymore and get disappointed when its not listenable

Audio is for music, visuals are for reading.

From my perspective, I have to read a huge amount not on audio for my job. I commute for 5 hours a day, so I've lots of time to read for leisure. Although I have to say, a lot of what I read for work is heavyweight stuff so I usually struggle to read any complex books.

Gorfias:

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

There's a book called Bullshit Jobs you might want to check out. At least 40% of our population and probably much higher are working at jobs that don't actually need to be performed.

The guy who wrote it also wrote this article a few years ago:
https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Agema:

erttheking:
Considering that Hillary actually had plans to deal with declining rural towns and the majority of the people who lived in those towns

Pity she didn't make more noise about that in her electoral campaigns, because whilst I'm not American, the only ones I saw seemed to be about portraying Trump as a sex attacker.

That's not so bad per se, but when your opponents are characterising a candidate as a "women and minorities first and stuff the rest" liberal, it kind of helps reinforce that attack.

I'm going to do something uncharacteristic and offer a defense of the Clinton campaign on this score, although it's a bit backhanded so maybe it's not that uncharacteristic after all:

The people who own the largest media conglomerates have an interest in reducing Democratic campaigns to "women and minorities first and stuff the rest" liberalism. So it could be the case that Hillary's stump speech (for example) was largely reasonable in its priorities and we wouldn't even know because of the skew by media lens.

That being said, it's not like that tendency is unpredictable; her billion dollar campaign and all its high-priced consultants should have addressed it more forcefully (at all?). Her ads and public messaging were suuuuuuuuuuch dogshit.

I think part of the success of people like Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders is that they say things that are so outside of what the Overton window was just years before that mainstream media is tempted to attack them and in doing so publicize their position instead of just ignoring it.

Fuck it, run on gulags for Goldman execs and guillotines for Bezos and the Waltons.

Agema:

trunkage:
I can't do this reading thing anymore and get disappointed when its not listenable

Audio is for music, visuals are for reading.

From my perspective, I have to read a huge amount not on audio for my job. I commute for 5 hours a day, so I've lots of time to read for leisure. Although I have to say, a lot of what I read for work is heavyweight stuff so I usually struggle to read any complex books.

I get cranky if it takes me more than 10 mins to drive to work. I'm too old for more than that

renegade7:

Gorfias:

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

There's a book called Bullshit Jobs you might want to check out. At least 40% of our population and probably much higher are working at jobs that don't actually need to be performed.

The guy who wrote it also wrote this article a few years ago:
https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Reviewing, thanks. Before doing so, I already agree.
I think it was Milton Friedman (MF) in this story from China. When viewing 100 workers shoveling out a tunnel,
MF: In the US, 1 guy with a bull dozer could get this done faster.
Chinese Supervisor: Yes, but we have provided jobs to workers.
MF: Oh? You're trying to provide jobs. Then replace their shovels with spoons.

Jobs are not only about the economy but also about social factors. But finding the right balance is a thing.

renegade7:

Gorfias:

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

There's a book called Bullshit Jobs you might want to check out. At least 40% of our population and probably much higher are working at jobs that don't actually need to be performed.

The guy who wrote it also wrote this article a few years ago:
https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

An interesting addition to that article. In the 60's and 70's bank workers went on strike three times, once for 6 months solid. It barely affected our economy. In contrast our public transport workers went on strike several times in the last few years and it caused chaos. Ireland is one of the rare examples where economists were able to actually see the effects of the shutdown of the financial sector and we saw it was "fuck all really."

Seanchaidh:
The people who own the largest media conglomerates have an interest in reducing Democratic campaigns to "women and minorities first and stuff the rest" liberalism. So it could be the case that Hillary's stump speech (for example) was largely reasonable in its priorities and we wouldn't even know because of the skew by media lens.

As well as that, Trump's stupid antics were more newsworthy than boring competence. Lots of mileage in "isn't this guy funny" headlines.

Agema:
But if the Democrats haven't made their lives significantly materially better, they're ripe for the electoral picking by anyone who flatters their preconceptions. After all, given the choice between someone who does nothing for you and calls you a racist bigot and someone who does nothing for you but tells you you're what makes America great, you'll take the latter.

I wonder if that's the issue.

Honestly, Democrats are pushing for medicare for all (got close with Obamacare), income raises, better schools, higher quality food and the like. That objectively makes people's lives better.

Trump literally put into heads of state Cronies who were against that. And Trump is still praised by his cult.

And if one doesn't want to be called a bigot, one must stop voting against people's lives because of their biases. Instead of saying "Hey, I believe my all-encompassing love that was taught to me via my religion draws the line at sympathy for minorities, equal human rights for homosexuals, and that others deserve the freedoms I enjoy. How DARE you think that makes me a bigot?!".

Like, in concept, I get what you're saying. No one wants to have bad things said about them. But when one actually believes in the negativities that others rightfully point out about said person.. then what's the problem?

Gorfias:

There are plenty Union bosses that would beg to differ.

I am concerned with the day when we live in a world with no jobs. How will goods and services be distributed. But we're not there yet.

I don't know if its still the case but Paris used to be spotless. Plenty of well paid government servants did sweep the streets. Heck, I'd love the gig if it paid enough.

ITMT: I'm feeling pretty disillusioned about the concept of self government. Just gotta figure out how to make my way in the world that is.

image

I mean, it's a cute picture. But in practice, it's a little disingenuous.

It's not just the 1%. I have no delusions that they aren't loving it. But a major of the elected Republican officials love it, as well. And vote for the inequality as well. We can spend a lot of time seeing what Trump himself has done. Taken from this Article, we can see major blows to the American Worker directly.

-Enacting tax cuts that overwhelmingly favor the wealthy over the average worker: In fact, the Trump Act has been designed to permanently give a tax cut to the top 1%. And that's by Republican design.

-Taking billions out of workers' pockets by weakening or abandoning regulations that protect their pay: Trump's administration overturned and killed a hard fought plan to protect worker's overtime pay, considered more erosion in Labor Standards.

-Blocking workers from access to the courts by allowing mandatory arbitration clauses in employment contracts: Trump's Solicitor literally came into the court case supposedly fighting for the workers, and instead decided to back the company. The blow here is that mandatory arbitration backs the Employers over disputes normally nearly 80% of the time. Trump and his crew decided it was prudent to fight that all disputes now would be handled in this fashion, and it would be woven into their contract, virtually assuring workers can not win a fight for anything owed to them

-Ensuring Wall Street can pocket more of workers' retirement savings: For some reason or another, Trump's Adminstration has been dragging on issuing a rule that would protect billions of dollars of Worker's retirement savings. There seems to be no rhyme or reason here. I can't find why Trump's administration has even wanted to delay signing this rule in for so long. It just seems that workers would get their fair share and that seems to annoy Trump.

There are other good examples in the article, but these issues really directly affect the American Worker and not only their ability to earn, but to save for when they are too old to work. It used to be that if you worked a Department Store Job for 30 years, you will have enough in pension to live off of. Now? Trump is looking to slash Federal Pensions, Republicans are looking to slash to the ground Social Security and Medicaid even though we all paid into it, and don't get me started about that time they were looking at our 401(k)s with hungry eyes...

I want to stress that I'm actually not attacking you in this situation. I know we see things differently, but you've proven to at least listen to others and attempt to learn more about a situation. I find that valuable in this day and age.

But if you actually hate these things, you need to hate them at the source. The one percent benefits, and benefits monstrously. But it's the elected political sycophants in service to Big Business that allows these chances for them at all. And Historically, the majority of those elected officials are Republicans.

Oddly enough, it's not Fiscally Responsible to vote for Republicans lately, as they only care about big business.

ObsidianJones:

I wonder if that's the issue.

Honestly, Democrats are pushing for medicare for all (got close with Obamacare), income raises, better schools, higher quality food and the like. That objectively makes people's lives better.

In general, I think "the people" have a very poor idea of what makes them better or worse off. They get straightforward changes to salaries and taxes very easily (hence why tax cuts tend to be big vote winners, even amongst people who say they want higher taxes). If tax cuts ultimately mean decreases in public services (that they have to compensate for with the their own expenditure), they notice later on that they feel poorer, but they don't necessarily draw the cause and effect links. They readily credit changes in economic progress to the government of the day, irrespective of whether the government has done a damn thing to change the economy.

I think a lot of what the Democrats do is surprisingly marginal, or offset by other factors. For instance, under Bill Clinton the incomes of the poor increased really well. But on the other hand, at the same time the salaries of the "1%" absolutely skyrocketed - far more so than even under Reagan - and the wealth gap increased. Sure, people felt richer under Clinton, and that made him a popular president. But that huge wealth gap also underpins a lot of modern unhappiness. It's not like people actually blame the Democrats for it, but I don't think they believe the Democrats really fix it, either. Those manufacturing jobs have been outsourced to China, and the Democrats didn't stop it. The coal mining jobs have gone, and the Democrats didn't replace it with new industry or otherwise stop the communities decaying. And so on... I'm not necessarily saying the Democrats could or maybe even should have somehow intervened in many of these cases, but nevertheless they're people often who may look at the Democrats and wonder what the hell the Democrats ever do for them.

ObsidianJones:
snip

Thanks, and interesting links.
Successful big governments like Sweden for instance bristle at the accusation that they are socialist, stating that they are very capitalist but have high taxes on everyone which pay for a healthy safety net.

I think we need a less progressive tax system that makes the top 50% of Americans paying more into that system. Right now tax cuts help the 1% because they are paying a disproportionate amount of taxes to begin with.

This isn't going to happen from the corporate Democratic party. If it means tax cuts to the 1%, would it be more likely to come from the Republican party?

Previous links from other posters speak to the possibility of a society with 20 hour work weeks. Sounds good to me.

Gorfias:
I'm with Ann Coulter on this one. Trump is making excuses. It is absurd to think he needs anything more than his position as Commander in Chief of the US military to make the wall happen. But he isn't. He's on his way to being a one term President.

No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

The good news is I'm old and may be dead before it all comes down.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

This and the Brexit fail so far are terribly demotivating. Why vote when a ruling elite do what they want anyway, regardless?

I think you're placing your blame on the wrong mark. The Brexiteers control the government. Brexit failing isn't the fault of remainers obstructing things but the brexiteers themselves being an inept burden to the process who spend more time trying to kill May than actually deliver Brexit.

And in America the Republicans control most branches of government and in fact all of them before the midterms. So you can blame Trumps incompetence for those failings.

Hades:

Gorfias:
I'm with Ann Coulter on this one. Trump is making excuses. It is absurd to think he needs anything more than his position as Commander in Chief of the US military to make the wall happen. But he isn't. He's on his way to being a one term President.

No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

The good news is I'm old and may be dead before it all comes down.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

This and the Brexit fail so far are terribly demotivating. Why vote when a ruling elite do what they want anyway, regardless?

I think you're placing your blame on the wrong mark. The Brexiteers control the government. Brexit failing isn't the fault of remainers obstructing things but the brexiteers themselves being an inept burden to the process who spend more time trying to kill May than actually deliver Brexit.

And in America the Republicans control most branches of government and in fact all of them before the midterms. So you can blame Trumps incompetence for those failings.

Well, May did voted remain, so there is some obstruction. But Brexiteers will do anything to take her down. Unsuccessfully on many occasions. I would hate to see them gaining complete control and trying to negotiate if they're too incompetent to take May out. There is literally nothing special about her.

Hades:

I think you're placing your blame on the wrong mark. The Brexiteers control the government. Brexit failing isn't the fault of remainers obstructing things but the brexiteers themselves being an inept burden to the process who spend more time trying to kill May than actually deliver Brexit.

And in America the Republicans control most branches of government and in fact all of them before the midterms. So you can blame Trumps incompetence for those failings.

I agree with your statement and this is WORSE than obstruction. Those who ran on Brexit and won, like Trump on the Wall, are betraying the voters that voted for them meaning, what is the point of voting? Or staying politically aware? I dunno. Keeps me from drinking 24/7.

Trump ran on a lot of things that he didn't deliver on. Not delivering on a moronic wall is actually a good thing.

Gorfias:
I think we need a less progressive tax system that makes the top 50% of Americans paying more into that system. Right now tax cuts help the 1% because they are paying a disproportionate amount of taxes to begin with.

Tax cuts help the 1% because they are targeted to do so. And making the system more regressive would in fact be a tax cut for the rich or a tax increase for everyone else, so asking for that is basically just cruel.

We should have very much higher taxes on the very rich (billionaires and hundred millionaires at the very least) in order to prevent them from enjoying their current level of power and control over everyone else.

Gorfias:
I agree with your statement and this is WORSE than obstruction. Those who ran on Brexit and won, like Trump on the Wall, are betraying the voters that voted for them meaning, what is the point of voting?

Well, that's the tricky thing. The people who "sold" Brexit to the public weren't in positions of government office to deliver it - the official advice of the government was stay in the EU. Many of the leading figures selling Brexit weren't even elected national politicians. And then some of these leading Brexiters were offered major offices of state to oversee Brexit, and haven't been able to negotiate the results that they'd promised the public anyway. Let's take the joke of Dominic Raab, leading Brexiter made secretary of state for exiting the EU, who refused to even vote for the exit deal his department had been in charge of negotiating. Just to give you an idea how dysfunctional it all is.

They were charlatans. The public voted for charlatans, and duly got them.

The second issue was that the Brexit referendum was seriously flawed. A referendum should really offer clear policies. The problem is that Brexit was not a defined option. It consisted of a wide range of different policies and positions, such that no-one who voted it could know what they would be getting. Never mind that national policy was conflated with EU policy in ways that were not true and created more confusion. Now we are getting a clear picture of what Brexit means, turns out people don't like it, and - polls suggest - had they known this would be the endpoint of Brexit, they'd probably have voted to remain in the EU. Never mind we now know that the Leave campaign broke electoral law as well, and there is the issue of Russian electoral interference which there's plenty of evidence of, but the government has declined to significantly investigate(!).

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. Except millions of people's lives get hurt by this one.

Gorfias:
...like Trump on the Wall...

Did Trump win on the wall?

It's hard to know how many votes Trump won on the wall. It's apparently in the negative with both Democrats (obviously) but also independents.

Trump largely won the basic Republican vote - the people who vote Republican all the time no matter who the candidate is or even to a large extent what the specific policies are. Most may support the wall, but potentially it didn't make a blind bit of difference to their voting intention. If it did, specifically, shift a small percentage of key voters in key states, how do we measure that up against all sorts of other policies which individually specifically shifted a small percentage of key voters, but which aren't getting attention and may have been reneged upon?

Let's imagine, for example, a policy that is 95% unpopular, but not deemed so important in terms of party support with by those people, but swung 5% of voters. Is that 5% support more important than the 95% against? Is that policy more important than the policies which actually garnered the president the ~50% public support that he got the vast majority of his votes from?

SO as this shutdown continues and Trump issues his Pay freeze for Federal workers as he touts his awesome economy while simultaneously attempting to claim economic hardship as his reason not to pay the bills ( again) to force workers to work without pay and without receiving back pay while congress still gets paid; Lets hear from the people who are being directly affected by this since Trump does not seem to think they are important enough to care about here:

"Broke my lease to accept new fed job for which I have to attend 7 months of training in another state,"another Twitter user said. "Training canceled with shutdown. Homeless. Can't afford short-term housing/have to work full-time for no pay/returning Christmas presents."

"My husband is a Park Ranger in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and he had to sign his furlough papers," one woman tweeted. "We have a 4 yr. old and a 4-month-old, and we don?t know when his next check will come. Mortgage is due, Christmas 2 days away."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/12/28/living-paycheck-paycheck-is-disturbingly-common-i-see-no-way-out/

And more from #shutdownstories:

single mom, single income. If my pay from last two weeks shows up I have enough to pay bills, but not buy food. We live direct deposit to direct deposit, & something vital is always breaking - car brakes, stove, furnace.🤞 nothing goes until this is over.

thankfully my auto loan was able to defer my truck payment in Jan so I won't default on it an other bills this month. If no backpay, I'll likely be evicted Feb 1.

My husband is active duty Coast Guard. Everyone thinks the military is getting paid during the shutdown, but the Coast Guard is facing no pay on the 1st due to being DHS and not DoD. We live in NYC, pay over $2K/month in rent, have a toddler and one on the way.

My insurance premium is $600 per month & my sons Insulin & pump supplies are an additional $600 per quarter. Barely making it. Now I'll be going to work.....paid in the future

I'm a contracted employee for the federal government and the difference is that there is no chance of compensation for the shutdown days for me and others in my position

We were relying on that paycheck to pay the car payment because I was too sick to work most of the month. Thank you, Mr. President

Last summer, our city was ravaged by the Carr Fire. Whiskeytown Lake (where Carr Fire started) is now unattended. The teams doing recovery work are furloughed. Winter rains and runoff will further damage the rivers, lake and forest. #ThanksTrump

My children don?t care about walls. They do care about having a warm house to live in, a car to ride in, clothes to wear, and food in their bellies ? none of which is possible if their mom can?t go to work.

All of you people saying we should have saved 3 months salary clearly don?t understand how it works for the military/working class. Must be nice to have extra cash to save. Thanks for your empathy

https://twitter.com/hashtag/ShutdownStories?src=hash

Yea, really have to get a load of these guys who do not understand why the poorly paid people are forced to live pay check to pay check and then have the gall to blame them for not having 3 months worth of bills saved because they are underpaid to begin with. Are people seriously that dense that they have no idea that the poor didn't "choose to be poor" and that being poor means you don't actually have any money to survive? If those who cannot afford to save money took the jobs from those who do, guess who would not be able to afford to save money then? Geeze these people do not even seem to understand this can happen to anyone.

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