US Government Shutdown

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Silentpony:
Something fishy about this. i don't trust for one second trump or the republicans negotiated in good faith. they're up to something

I don't think there's really any catch to this three week opening. They simply caved and agreed to open it for three weeks. Trump and the Republicans were actually being blamed for it more and more despite some people trying to argue that it was "both sides". Today major airports were pretty much shutting down due to a lack of air traffic controllers showing up for work. I think that probably did it. Also Pelosi honestly wasn't budging at all and gave no signs of doing so. If there's any kind of catch, it would be that Trump may be serious about the national emergency threat this time around.

So I guess we'll see if that threat comes to pass in three weeks. Now that the government is open, Democrats honestly have even less incentive to make any kind of deal with him. If he declares a national emergency over it and mobilizes the military to make his stupid wall, he'll just be lighting himself on fire. For example, land needs to be taken from people on the border in order to make room for the wall and....well...put the pieces together.

Nedoras:

I don't think there's really any catch to this three week opening. They simply caved and agreed to open it for three weeks. Trump and the Republicans were actually being blamed for it more and more despite some people trying to argue that it was "both sides". Today major airports were pretty much shutting down due to a lack of air traffic controllers showing up for work. I think that probably did it. Also Pelosi honestly wasn't budging at all and gave no signs of doing so. If there's any kind of catch, it would be that Trump may be serious about the national emergency threat this time around.

So I guess we'll see if that threat comes to pass in three weeks. Now that the government is open, Democrats honestly have even less incentive to make any kind of deal with him. If he declares a national emergency over it and mobilizes the military to make his stupid wall, he'll just be lighting himself on fire. For example, land needs to be taken from people on the border in order to make room for the wall and....well...put the pieces together.

Well, Trump claimed the blame in the first place, but if they spend the next 3 weeks going "you caved, you caved, neener neener neener" I'm not sure Pelosi can keep the blame off herself. I don't think Democrats as a whole will or should take collective blame when we hit the deadline without a deal again, but there's an excellent political opportunity for anyone who wants to raise some choice fingers in the air at McConnell and Pelosi and push a compromise through.

Ms. Coulter had an interesting choice of words for President Trump today...

Burnouts3s3:
Ms. Coulter had an interesting choice of words for President Trump today...

Yes, because we all know that this idiot is who really calls the shots for the idiot in the white house right now right? LMAO

What I do not understand is why anyone remotely cares what either or them think tbh. Why would anyone listen to people this ignorant? Don't they have that lightbulb go off in their heads when listening to these people telling them that these people have no clue what they are talking about?

tstorm823:

Nedoras:

I don't think there's really any catch to this three week opening. They simply caved and agreed to open it for three weeks. Trump and the Republicans were actually being blamed for it more and more despite some people trying to argue that it was "both sides". Today major airports were pretty much shutting down due to a lack of air traffic controllers showing up for work. I think that probably did it. Also Pelosi honestly wasn't budging at all and gave no signs of doing so. If there's any kind of catch, it would be that Trump may be serious about the national emergency threat this time around.

So I guess we'll see if that threat comes to pass in three weeks. Now that the government is open, Democrats honestly have even less incentive to make any kind of deal with him. If he declares a national emergency over it and mobilizes the military to make his stupid wall, he'll just be lighting himself on fire. For example, land needs to be taken from people on the border in order to make room for the wall and....well...put the pieces together.

Well, Trump claimed the blame in the first place, but if they spend the next 3 weeks going "you caved, you caved, neener neener neener" I'm not sure Pelosi can keep the blame off herself. I don't think Democrats as a whole will or should take collective blame when we hit the deadline without a deal again, but there's an excellent political opportunity for anyone who wants to raise some choice fingers in the air at McConnell and Pelosi and push a compromise through.

He did claim the blame, but he and the Republicans really tried to shove that blame onto Schumer and Pelosi as quickly as possible. Hell, Trump blamed Schumer literally the day after he said he'd own the shutdown. I don't think the Democrats are really going to rub it in that he caved. It's not beneficial for them at all to do so. I'm sure late night shows and some people in the media will do it though, as well as people on social media. I don't think it's a good thing mind, as it's just more likely to cause him to do something stupid in the future out of spite.

I'm not sure if the Democrats will take any blame for Trump calling for a national emergency though. Ultimately Trump's demand for the wall and how it's been outlined is insanely flawed. He seems to literally just want to build a barrier and nothing more, claiming that more patrols, drones and the like are just "bells and whistles". So he's asking for money to basically continue Bush's border fence, only being even more costly for no reason. There's also a hell of a lot of logistical problems with the wall, none of which have been addressed. He just demands money over and over to build a thoughtless barrier that won't do a damn thing. People blaming politicians for not compromising with a thoughtless plan are fools themselves. Compromise just for the sake of it isn't a good thing.

I do agree that some politicians will push for a compromise seeing this as a way of earning some points, I just don't see how that will get them points with many people. Sure there are still people saying "both sides need to come together", but that's shrinking.

Lil devils x:
SNIP

To be fair with Trump's obvious dementia, decades of drug abuse and overall low IQ and attention span, I wouldn't be surprised if Kushner makes more than a few decisions, many more than we think, and Trump just parrots what Kushner says.

I mean wasn't there a report a year or so ago that Trump just stops listening to briefings if his name isn't mentioned at least once per paragraph?

Silentpony:

Lil devils x:
SNIP

To be fair with Trump's obvious dementia, decades of drug abuse and overall low IQ and attention span, I wouldn't be surprised if Kushner makes more than a few decisions, many more than we think, and Trump just parrots what Kushner says.

I mean wasn't there a report a year or so ago that Trump just stops listening to briefings if his name isn't mentioned at least once per paragraph?

That is why I cannot remotely understand why anyone takes anything he says seriously let alone voted for him. He is a moron, why did anyone think this was a good idea in the first place? The guy is seriously as dumb as a rock and people actually think he should run the nation?! Even Patrick Star Would have been a better choice.

CNN has reported that the government will reopen for 3 weeks or something.

Marik2:
CNN has reported that the government will reopen for 3 weeks or something.

Yes, that was posted earlier in the thread here:
https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056497-US-Government-Shutdown?page=6#24287375

and why Coulter is complaining about it above.

Lil devils x:

Marik2:
CNN has reported that the government will reopen for 3 weeks or something.

Yes, that was posted earlier in the thread here:
https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056497-US-Government-Shutdown?page=6#24287375

and why Coulter is complaining about it above.

Mobile version isn't very good when looking through the forums.

Marik2:

Lil devils x:

Marik2:
CNN has reported that the government will reopen for 3 weeks or something.

Yes, that was posted earlier in the thread here:
https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056497-US-Government-Shutdown?page=6#24287375

and why Coulter is complaining about it above.

Mobile version isn't very good when looking through the forums.

Yea it is hard when it takes forever to see one post at a time. Let's just hope one day we look back on these times and giggle at the barbarianism of the internet people like us had to use. XD

BreakfastMan:
Surprised, and heartened, to see the Democrats finally grew something resembling a spine.

It turns out the way you deal with a screaming toddler is to keep telling him no and deny him the ice cream. Even if the child screams for 32 days straight. Still not getting the ice cream.

Who would have thought?

Basically, Pelosi and Schumer are Trumps Mom and Dad now and disciplined him for his tantrum the way he apparently has never been disaplined in his fucking life. If only his real parents had done this when he was 5, the world might have been spared so much.

I'd say that maybe the GOP can learn something from this, that maybe enabling him when he acts like a fucktard is exactly why he keeps acting like this, but I don't believe the GOP is capable of learning anything at this point.

Burnouts3s3:
Ms. Coulter had an interesting choice of words for President Trump today...

If Ann Coulter wants to run the country, she's welcome to run for office. Oh, she doesn't have to. She just pulls Trumps strings and he goes "Yes, Ma'am. Can I have another?"

We shouldn't overlook the fact that it was a relatively mild set of flight delays that ultimately ended the shutdown. Gee, a staff shortage at airports during a government shutdown? Wholly unpredictable. Inconveniencing the rich gets legislation moving. Now imagine the power of a general strike.

tstorm823:
I don't think Democrats as a whole will or should take collective blame when we hit the deadline without a deal again, but there's an excellent political opportunity for anyone who wants to raise some choice fingers in the air at McConnell and Pelosi and push a compromise through.

What compromise? The Democrats won't fund a wall, and Trump demands one.

Increased border security funding has already been offered. Arguably, that is the compromise - but it involves a huge climbdown for Trump compared to the Democrats, and it remains to be seen whether he'll swallow it.

If he declares a national emergency and builds the wall by executive fiat, that's some authoritarianism trying to bypass proper channels, and let's see how that goes down.

Seanchaidh:
We shouldn't overlook the fact that it was a relatively mild set of flight delays that ultimately ended the shutdown. Gee, a staff shortage at airports during a government shutdown? Wholly unpredictable. Inconveniencing the rich gets legislation moving. Now imagine the power of a general strike.

I was imagining that was what would end this. Literally the entire TSA calling out sick on the same day and watching the Nations air travel grinding to a halt. Sure, it's a risk of getting fired, but when you're living with the reality of working without pay(still having to commute to work, buy food, pay for heat, rent, etc) for a month(and until today, no end in sight) with your fate in the hands of a toddler throwing a fit, you don't have many options at that point.

Seanchaidh:
We shouldn't overlook the fact that it was a relatively mild set of flight delays that ultimately ended the shutdown. Gee, a staff shortage at airports during a government shutdown? Wholly unpredictable. Inconveniencing the rich gets legislation moving. Now imagine the power of a general strike.

An necessary observation, well said.

Of course, the financial throttling of all these workers have forced some to rely on gaining debt and/or arrears to make ends meet which come with the usual expected fines and charges. Let's not delude ourselves that this whole farce doesn't benefit certain established systems already financially controlling too much of the human population as it is.

Burnouts3s3:
Ms. Coulter had an interesting choice of words for President Trump today...

Wait, really? George HW Bush? I mean, that seems like a weird jab. As far as Republicans go, HW was less focused on bigotry, but like, why not go after someone like Jimmy Carter or Obama or something?

That said, this (and a bunch of others) calling Trump a wimp supports my theory that when debating Trump and his ilk, we should just go for emasculating him. I bet if we tried to claim Brett Kavanaugh wasn't man enough to rape anything, he would have raped a woman on national TV just to prove us wrong.

Nedoras:

He seems to literally just want to build a barrier and nothing more, claiming that more patrols, drones and the like are just "bells and whistles". So he's asking for money to basically continue Bush's border fence, only being even more costly for no reason. There's also a hell of a lot of logistical problems with the wall, none of which have been addressed. He just demands money over and over to build a thoughtless barrier that won't do a damn thing. People blaming politicians for not compromising with a thoughtless plan are fools themselves. Compromise just for the sake of it isn't a good thing.

I do agree that some politicians will push for a compromise seeing this as a way of earning some points, I just don't see how that will get them points with many people. Sure there are still people saying "both sides need to come together", but that's shrinking.

I don't think that's accurate. Hell, IIRC the reason it's "5.7 billion" right now is because he was asking for 5 billion, and they countered that with the need to spend 700 million on something else, and he said "ok, sure, I'll go up to 5.7". Their not fighting about non-wall security measures because neither side is against those. Trump's just against doing those in place of a wall. Pence offered to half the amount, and while we can't know if Trump would have signed that, they didn't even try. There's extended DACA protections as well as for others with temporary protected status on the table. He signed this 3 week opening. Just make the man an offer of something, and he'll sign it! The shutdown happened because he said he wouldn't sign the bill, but they didn't even try sending him a bill to put him on the spot.

Agema:

What compromise? The Democrats won't fund a wall, and Trump demands one.

Increased border security funding has already been offered. Arguably, that is the compromise - but it involves a huge climbdown for Trump compared to the Democrats, and it remains to be seen whether he'll swallow it.

Then make up a better answer than no. It's not difficult.

Offer the full 5.7 billion as lipservice, then break it up into spending on different things. Designate most of it to non-barrier spending, but cut it up into smaller bits so that "the wall" gets the biggest single slice of pie. Spend the rest on improved smuggling screening, personnel expansions to get through immigration backlogs, health and safety resources, and higher tech border monitoring, etc. Trump probably rejects this.

Expand DACA protections. It's not a political win for Trump, but it's something he clearly wants to happen, so we'll call that net neutral. And Trump can get his "they gave me what I want in return for something else I want, I'm so clever" moment that he's been trying to get with DACA. This far in, it's still not a Trump bill.

Let Trump deny asylum to anyone who crosses illegally and doesn't seem to be actively turning themselves in, that is to say anyone who gets a certain distance into the country without contacting border patrol at a crossing, at a border patrol station, or with one of the rescue beacons they have set up at the border. Trump would be happy to blanket deny asylum to anyone who seems to be trying to just sneak in. In return, remove any numerical limit to the number of asylum claims we grant and make the process easier and more comfortable at official crossings so that people don't have to wait in Mexico with a number on their arm waiting to be called.

I think those changes constitute a compromise that Trump would agree to. If this isn't palatable enough for Democrats to swallow, they could try to ban barbed wire at the border or add new rules for undocumented immigrants to try to avoid deportation if they're picked up by ICE. At any rate, a win is typically worth more than a loss, as long at you don't poison the bill with something like "No wall! Period!" you can add trade-offs until anyone is a fool not to vote for it.

Silentpony:
Something fishy about this. i don't trust for one second trump or the republicans negotiated in good faith. they're up to something

I do wonder if its a deliberate attempt to get the news cycle's attention off Roger Stone being arrested

Palindromemordnilap:

Silentpony:
Something fishy about this. i don't trust for one second trump or the republicans negotiated in good faith. they're up to something

I do wonder if its a deliberate attempt to get the news cycle's attention off Roger Stone being arrested

Or the Paul Manafort extra sentencing shit

tstorm823:
Then make up a better answer than no. It's not difficult.

Offer the full 5.7 billion as lipservice, then break it up into spending on different things. Designate most of it to non-barrier spending, but cut it up into smaller bits so that "the wall" gets the biggest single slice of pie. Spend the rest on improved smuggling screening, personnel expansions to get through immigration backlogs, health and safety resources, and higher tech border monitoring, etc. Trump probably rejects this.

Expand DACA protections. It's not a political win for Trump, but it's something he clearly wants to happen, so we'll call that net neutral. And Trump can get his "they gave me what I want in return for something else I want, I'm so clever" moment that he's been trying to get with DACA. This far in, it's still not a Trump bill.

Let Trump deny asylum to anyone who crosses illegally and doesn't seem to be actively turning themselves in, that is to say anyone who gets a certain distance into the country without contacting border patrol at a crossing, at a border patrol station, or with one of the rescue beacons they have set up at the border. Trump would be happy to blanket deny asylum to anyone who seems to be trying to just sneak in. In return, remove any numerical limit to the number of asylum claims we grant and make the process easier and more comfortable at official crossings so that people don't have to wait in Mexico with a number on their arm waiting to be called.

I think those changes constitute a compromise that Trump would agree to. If this isn't palatable enough for Democrats to swallow, they could try to ban barbed wire at the border or add new rules for undocumented immigrants to try to avoid deportation if they're picked up by ICE. At any rate, a win is typically worth more than a loss, as long at you don't poison the bill with something like "No wall! Period!" you can add trade-offs until anyone is a fool not to vote for it.

Actually, you're not correct. It is difficult. It's literally world changing.

We're not dealing with the betterment of the Nation. We're not even dealing with actual issues that are truly pressing. Fact is, Immigrants (illegal or no) would be great for any nation given the World Fertility Rates are dropping. Japan's rate has dropped to its lowest in recorded history. And hell, we don't have better news here in the US.

What we're dealing with... are egos.

We're dealing with a segment of a nation so willing to sell everything down the river if it meant that they could be on top for that much longer. Who, as Lil Devil X (Lil X as she's known in the Rap Game) pointed out numerous times, saw change coming and decided they would rather burn the house down before giving it over to anyone else. They were promised winning, and that's what they turned their sights to. They must win, or everything is useless.

Admittedly, Border security is at the bottom of my concerns. I'm going to move to Canada in two years, so it might be unfair of me to have an opinion. But the Border only truly concerns people who think it's a problem. The issue is, you have to overlook all the tons of research and evidence that shines a light on these things that are actively killing us to consider a Wall to be better use of our money than the myriad of other things that we need fixed.

Trash in our ocean, Over-Automation of Jobs, The Growing Energy Crisis and Trump's decision to cut funding to Wind and Solar (oddly enough ending the chance for more jobs to America that can never leave), Teachers who have to quit because they aren't getting enough pay, Slashing Obamacare (which allowed a lot of people to actually get some type of help) in the face of out of pocket cost and overall general Hospital Cost becoming more crippling than the disorder, The Wealth Gap, The only thing Americans being able to agree on is that we're completely divided, America's Obesity rate, Trump's treatment of of our LGBTQ siblings, not to mention taking specfic efforts dismantle Civil Rights Protection Agencies... Jesus, man, I could go on.

All these things, Trump and his Administration has ignored, exasperated, or out right tried to destroy. These things affect Americans now. They are hurting Americans now. Anyone of these issues could use the 10 Billion or even the 5.7 Billion and actively help American Citizens with real life and tangible benefits.

Giving in to fund a wall that just sates a few people's egos while slashing benefits and aid from the Government that are supposed to go to Americans and are paid by our taxes... it's a defeat in any sense of the word. All Trump proposes brings suffering to those who doesn't care about. And he doesn't care about a lot of us. The Wall won't affect me. Won't affect you. Won't affect anyone. Any one of those links could us that money to actually better some part of your life. And Trump has had a hand in making almost everyone one of those things worse. I say almost, because we're not sure if the lower fertility is due to Global Warming, but that's the leading theory.

Silentpony:

Palindromemordnilap:

Silentpony:
Something fishy about this. i don't trust for one second trump or the republicans negotiated in good faith. they're up to something

I do wonder if its a deliberate attempt to get the news cycle's attention off Roger Stone being arrested

Or the Paul Manafort extra sentencing shit

its also a good opportunity to blame those Dems for treating workers badly.

ObsidianJones:

We're dealing with a segment of a nation so willing to sell everything down the river if it meant that they could be on top for that much longer. Who, as Lil Devil X (Lil X as she's known in the Rap Game) pointed out numerous times, saw change coming and decided they would rather burn the house down before giving it over to anyone else. They were promised winning, and that's what they turned their sights to. They must win, or everything is useless.

Admittedly, Border security is at the bottom of my concerns. I'm going to move to Canada in two years, so it might be unfair of me to have an opinion. But the Border only truly concerns people who think it's a problem. The issue is, you have to overlook all the tons of research and evidence that shines a light on these things that are actively killing us to consider a Wall to be better use of our money than the myriad of other things that we need fixed.

Trash in our ocean, Over-Automation of Jobs, The Growing Energy Crisis and Trump's decision to cut funding to Wind and Solar (oddly enough ending the chance for more jobs to America that can never leave), Teachers who have to quit because they aren't getting enough pay, Slashing Obamacare (which allowed a lot of people to actually get some type of help) in the face of out of pocket cost and overall general Hospital Cost becoming more crippling than the disorder, The Wealth Gap, The only thing Americans being able to agree on is that we're completely divided, America's Obesity rate, Trump's treatment of of our LGBTQ siblings, not to mention taking specfic efforts dismantle Civil Rights Protection Agencies... Jesus, man, I could go on.

All these things, Trump and his Administration has ignored, exasperated, or out right tried to destroy. These things affect Americans now. They are hurting Americans now. Anyone of these issues could use the 10 Billion or even the 5.7 Billion and actively help American Citizens with real life and tangible benefits.

You could go on? Do go on. Continue naming problems we can't even attempt to solve with this money. We but a huge effort into healthcare, $5.7 billion dollars would pay the nation's health bills for 14 hours. And then pretend things being done are ruining the world. Republican cuts to ACA regulations were predicted to cause apocalyptic drops in Marketplace enrollees and giant rises in costs, and then that didn't happen. I'm told republican attacks on alternative energy will put us behind China, but our emissions are dropping while theirs increase (lil X, as you say, has to refer to the Paris accords since it's the only place you'll find a standard that makes China look more responsible, the standard being "Spend all your money!"), I'm told tax reform is just a handout to mega-corporations but wages are climbing with GDP while the stock markets look mediocre, I'm told Democrat sponsored programs will fight obesity while they seem to accomplish nothing, I could go on and on.

Your view of Trump and Republicans requires not only that they're evil, but also that they're so incompetent at evil that good things accidentally happen. Just pretend there's the slightest chance that the obvious answer is true, that people from all sides are trying to do good things, and then you might find you aren't living in the apocalypse. And then solve the problems that you can.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

We're dealing with a segment of a nation so willing to sell everything down the river if it meant that they could be on top for that much longer. Who, as Lil Devil X (Lil X as she's known in the Rap Game) pointed out numerous times, saw change coming and decided they would rather burn the house down before giving it over to anyone else. They were promised winning, and that's what they turned their sights to. They must win, or everything is useless.

Admittedly, Border security is at the bottom of my concerns. I'm going to move to Canada in two years, so it might be unfair of me to have an opinion. But the Border only truly concerns people who think it's a problem. The issue is, you have to overlook all the tons of research and evidence that shines a light on these things that are actively killing us to consider a Wall to be better use of our money than the myriad of other things that we need fixed.

Trash in our ocean, Over-Automation of Jobs, The Growing Energy Crisis and Trump's decision to cut funding to Wind and Solar (oddly enough ending the chance for more jobs to America that can never leave), Teachers who have to quit because they aren't getting enough pay, Slashing Obamacare (which allowed a lot of people to actually get some type of help) in the face of out of pocket cost and overall general Hospital Cost becoming more crippling than the disorder, The Wealth Gap, The only thing Americans being able to agree on is that we're completely divided, America's Obesity rate, Trump's treatment of of our LGBTQ siblings, not to mention taking specfic efforts dismantle Civil Rights Protection Agencies... Jesus, man, I could go on.

All these things, Trump and his Administration has ignored, exasperated, or out right tried to destroy. These things affect Americans now. They are hurting Americans now. Anyone of these issues could use the 10 Billion or even the 5.7 Billion and actively help American Citizens with real life and tangible benefits.

Your view of Trump and Republicans requires not only that they're evil, but also that they're so incompetent at evil that good things accidentally happen. Just pretend there's the slightest chance that the obvious answer is true, that people from all sides are trying to do good things, and then you might find you aren't living in the apocalypse. And then solve the problems that you can.

I think that is generally a good way to look at politics. If you're a Christian Democrat than Social Democrats aren't evil but just think different things will have the most positive outcome. If you're a left winger than right wingers aren't cruel to the poor but genuinely believe more independence will be better for the poor as well.

However I think the populists are excluded from this process and that's exactly why I dislike them so much. Trump is a fairly easy politician to doubt the intentions of. To believe that Trump wants to do good things you have to believe that an openly corrupt businessman with a shady history and who's obviously self absorbed really cares about the common good. But what exactly points to him having any interest in that? If he really wanted to help people he'd have paid his workers or not have been engaged in scams.

Other populists aren't cartoon characters but the general principle applies. Lets take Erdogan. To believe Erdogan is interested in doing good we must believe that Erdogan saw the rest of the Middle East have a system that combined dictatorship and dogmatic Islam, witnessed all those systems collapsing and still decided that this system of Government was the best choice for Turkey. Considering Erdogan must be aware of the track record of the system he's introducing its hard to argue that he's not just interested in being the dictator because HE will be the dictator rather than because he's convinced it will be good for the nation.

tstorm823:

Nedoras:

He seems to literally just want to build a barrier and nothing more, claiming that more patrols, drones and the like are just "bells and whistles". So he's asking for money to basically continue Bush's border fence, only being even more costly for no reason. There's also a hell of a lot of logistical problems with the wall, none of which have been addressed. He just demands money over and over to build a thoughtless barrier that won't do a damn thing. People blaming politicians for not compromising with a thoughtless plan are fools themselves. Compromise just for the sake of it isn't a good thing.

I do agree that some politicians will push for a compromise seeing this as a way of earning some points, I just don't see how that will get them points with many people. Sure there are still people saying "both sides need to come together", but that's shrinking.

I don't think that's accurate. Hell, IIRC the reason it's "5.7 billion" right now is because he was asking for 5 billion, and they countered that with the need to spend 700 million on something else, and he said "ok, sure, I'll go up to 5.7". Their not fighting about non-wall security measures because neither side is against those. Trump's just against doing those in place of a wall. Pence offered to half the amount, and while we can't know if Trump would have signed that, they didn't even try. There's extended DACA protections as well as for others with temporary protected status on the table. He signed this 3 week opening. Just make the man an offer of something, and he'll sign it! The shutdown happened because he said he wouldn't sign the bill, but they didn't even try sending him a bill to put him on the spot.

They couldn't send him any bill, unless McConnel approved it, and he was refusing to let any spending bill hit the floor. McConnel was refusing to let Trump be put on the spot. Honestly he's just as much to blame for this shutdown as Trump is.

And it is accurate. There is no plan in place for this wall. I'm sure they have some things worked out, but actual experts and people in that industry have come out over and over again stating that the numbers coming out of the White House are way too low. There are people in the White House who do want it to be more than just a big, stupid wall, but Trump himself has literally dismissed anything else as being worthless bells and whistles. That the wall is what was needed. But we all know that wall will never happen, even if he got 5.7 billion dollar payments every year, it wouldn't be finished. The reason Democrats don't want to give him any money, is because it will end up like Bush's border fence. It'll be an unfinished, expensive project that ultimately did nothing other than sate a bunch of nutcases who think that people are going to cross the border and take over their boathouses. At this point even Trump knows it's not going to happen, not unless it's significantly rushed and done poorly, but I imagine that's what he wants anyway. He just wants a talking point to keep him in office. It's why he was spotted in a meeting showing people pictures of Bush's border fence stating that work on the wall was already in progress. It's all he has.

Trump did go ahead with the three week opening, but he did not want to. He was forced to because major airports were beginning to shutdown, and the Republicans were losing it at McConnel and demanding for this to end. Look, maybe Trump does genuinely believe that the wall is the only solution, but he's wrong. It's a waste of money and it will never be finished. Compromising with bad ideas isn't the way to go. Just because someone presents an incredibly stupid solution, with horrible arguments for why it'll work, doesn't mean you have to pay it any mind. You don't respond to bad behavior by giving in. Compromise for the sake of it, isn't a good thing. This whole notion of always needing to be bi-partisan and working things out is childish. It's naive. It's all Obama did his entire presidency and it screwed him and so many other people over.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

We're dealing with a segment of a nation so willing to sell everything down the river if it meant that they could be on top for that much longer. Who, as Lil Devil X (Lil X as she's known in the Rap Game) pointed out numerous times, saw change coming and decided they would rather burn the house down before giving it over to anyone else. They were promised winning, and that's what they turned their sights to. They must win, or everything is useless.

Admittedly, Border security is at the bottom of my concerns. I'm going to move to Canada in two years, so it might be unfair of me to have an opinion. But the Border only truly concerns people who think it's a problem. The issue is, you have to overlook all the tons of research and evidence that shines a light on these things that are actively killing us to consider a Wall to be better use of our money than the myriad of other things that we need fixed.

Trash in our ocean, Over-Automation of Jobs, The Growing Energy Crisis and Trump's decision to cut funding to Wind and Solar (oddly enough ending the chance for more jobs to America that can never leave), Teachers who have to quit because they aren't getting enough pay, Slashing Obamacare (which allowed a lot of people to actually get some type of help) in the face of out of pocket cost and overall general Hospital Cost becoming more crippling than the disorder, The Wealth Gap, The only thing Americans being able to agree on is that we're completely divided, America's Obesity rate, Trump's treatment of of our LGBTQ siblings, not to mention taking specfic efforts dismantle Civil Rights Protection Agencies... Jesus, man, I could go on.

All these things, Trump and his Administration has ignored, exasperated, or out right tried to destroy. These things affect Americans now. They are hurting Americans now. Anyone of these issues could use the 10 Billion or even the 5.7 Billion and actively help American Citizens with real life and tangible benefits.

You could go on? Do go on. Continue naming problems we can't even attempt to solve with this money. We but a huge effort into healthcare, $5.7 billion dollars would pay the nation's health bills for 14 hours. And then pretend things being done are ruining the world. Republican cuts to ACA regulations were predicted to cause apocalyptic drops in Marketplace enrollees and giant rises in costs, and then that didn't happen. I'm told republican attacks on alternative energy will put us behind China, but our emissions are dropping while theirs increase (lil X, as you say, has to refer to the Paris accords since it's the only place you'll find a standard that makes China look more responsible, the standard being "Spend all your money!"), I'm told tax reform is just a handout to mega-corporations but wages are climbing with GDP while the stock markets look mediocre, I'm told Democrat sponsored programs will fight obesity while they seem to accomplish nothing, I could go on and on.

Your view of Trump and Republicans requires not only that they're evil, but also that they're so incompetent at evil that good things accidentally happen. Just pretend there's the slightest chance that the obvious answer is true, that people from all sides are trying to do good things, and then you might find you aren't living in the apocalypse. And then solve the problems that you can.

Trump is absolutely terrible, he is without question a horrible piece of garbage with literally no moral positives. Trump is a massive bigot, sexist, racist pig who also is absolutely terrible at his job.

And the Republican Party STILL hasn't thrown him away.

We are not wrong for judging the Republican Party for Trump's actions.

They could have turned on him when he admitted to sexually assaulting women, they didnt. They could have turned on him when he mocked veterans and disabled people, they didnt. They could have turned on him when he wanted to discriminate against all non-white people, they didnt. They could have turned on him when he made internment camps, they didnt. They could have turned on him on so many moments, and they didnt.

Regardless of 'what their views are', anyone who would vote for Trump now, would vote for someone who disrespects women, people of color, veterans, the disabled, journalists, government workers, middle class workers, farmers, miners, and LGBT people.

If you want me to believe Republicans arent bad, then they need to start acting like it. They need to remove Trump and McConnel and start putting in power people who give a fuck about the American people, and the American people are more than White Anglo-Saxon Protestants who make 6 figures.

Nedoras:

And it is accurate. There is no plan in place for this wall. I'm sure they have some things worked out, but actual experts and people in that industry have come out over and over again stating that the numbers coming out of the White House are way too low. There are people in the White House who do want it to be more than just a big, stupid wall, but Trump himself has literally dismissed anything else as being worthless bells and whistles. That the wall is what was needed. But we all know that wall will never happen, even if he got 5.7 billion dollar payments every year, it wouldn't be finished. The reason Democrats don't want to give him any money, is because it will end up like Bush's border fence. It'll be an unfinished, expensive project that ultimately did nothing other than sate a bunch of nutcases who think that people are going to cross the border and take over their boathouses. At this point even Trump knows it's not going to happen, not unless it's significantly rushed and done poorly, but I imagine that's what he wants anyway. He just wants a talking point to keep him in office. It's why he was spotted in a meeting showing people pictures of Bush's border fence stating that work on the wall was already in progress. It's all he has.

Trump did go ahead with the three week opening, but he did not want to. He was forced to because major airports were beginning to shutdown, and the Republicans were losing it at McConnel and demanding for this to end. Look, maybe Trump does genuinely believe that the wall is the only solution, but he's wrong. It's a waste of money and it will never be finished. Compromising with bad ideas isn't the way to go. Just because someone presents an incredibly stupid solution, with horrible arguments for why it'll work, doesn't mean you have to pay it any mind. You don't respond to bad behavior by giving in. Compromise for the sake of it, isn't a good thing. This whole notion of always needing to be bi-partisan and working things out is childish. It's naive. It's all Obama did his entire presidency and it screwed him and so many other people over.

You're mixing ideas and drawing conclusions that aren't fair. Trump wants a wall. Everything you say about that wall might be true. That doesn't mean Trump's against other forms of border security. He's against other forms if it means no wall, but that's not the same as being against them. I'm quite certain he's also put forward plans to hire more border control, which is certainly non-wall border security. Trump does not think the wall is THE solution, he just thinks that it is necessary.

Hades:

To believe that Trump wants to do good things you have to believe that an openly corrupt businessman with a shady history and who's obviously self absorbed really cares about the common good.

You don't actually have to believe that. You don't have to care about the common good to work towards the common good. I don't think there's anything in the world that Donald Trump wants more than validation of his ego. Getting elected president is about as validated as it gets, but he's done that and now has to be president. And the way to keep people validating your ego as president is to work toward the common good. I'm not suggesting this is true of populists in general or for every authority position, but I think the end result of Trump's personality flaws is "make good things happen for America" with extra steps to get there.

Trump isn't a good, moral person. Not even Donald Trump thinks that. But the two questions of this presidency are "can bad people do good things," and "are bad people allowed to do good things." From my point of view, the first answer is a firm yes, and the second answer should be yes, but there are a lot of people right now who wouldn't allow it if they had the choice.

tstorm823:
You could go on? Do go on. Continue naming problems we can't even attempt to solve with this money. We but a huge effort into healthcare, $5.7 billion dollars would pay the nation's health bills for 14 hours. And then pretend things being done are ruining the world. Republican cuts to ACA regulations were predicted to cause apocalyptic drops in Marketplace enrollees and giant rises in costs, and then that didn't happen. I'm told republican attacks on alternative energy will put us behind China, but our emissions are dropping while theirs increase (lil X, as you say, has to refer to the Paris accords since it's the only place you'll find a standard that makes China look more responsible, the standard being "Spend all your money!"), I'm told tax reform is just a handout to mega-corporations but wages are climbing with GDP while the stock markets look mediocre, I'm told Democrat sponsored programs will fight obesity while they seem to accomplish nothing, I could go on and on.

Your view of Trump and Republicans requires not only that they're evil, but also that they're so incompetent at evil that good things accidentally happen. Just pretend there's the slightest chance that the obvious answer is true, that people from all sides are trying to do good things, and then you might find you aren't living in the apocalypse. And then solve the problems that you can.

Gladly. We can start at Environmental Protections. Possibly getting an EPA that actually works and does its job. I'm sure it wouldn't happen, as it counters most of Trump's ideas.

Some highlights

-Trump's Proposed Sharp Logging Increase in 'efforts to stem the tide of all the wildfires'.

-All of a Sudden, the EPA's law enforcement hit a 30 year low. I guess people just stopped polluting... Oh. Wait. Trump just lessened all the restrictions he could, and then had his people cut jobs and funding to the EPA. A move that Harvard Studies believe will directly end the lives of 80,000 more Americans per decade. 8 thousand per year, and who knows how many more sick by the uncontrolled pollution concurrently. Which will tax our ailing health care even more.

I put a lot in the last one, but sufficed to say if we had a functioning and well funded Agency, a good deal of that would be curbed. I think 10 Billion would easily cover it, but even half that would prove to companies that they have the support of the President and they can't do whatever they want.

But hell, Trump himself is allowing Businesses to do whatever they want.

We can go into Housing. Right off the Bat, Trump proposed cutting 8.8 Billion in HUD. Said proposal would also call for "the elimination of the federal community development block grant, which provides funds to communities to repair infrastructure, build affordable housing and create jobs", citing that it doesn't make that much of an impact.

But not everyone sees it that way. In this article, in one of the most Bipartisan moves I've even seen, Republican and Democratic mayors and officials came together as one to decry how removing Community Development Block Grant Program would be detrimental to the state of Massachusetts as a whole. They cite how the money benefits the state, not so blanket and noncommittal 'minimum impact' rhetoric that Trump and his administration cites.

Oh, and also? The Tax cuts that was supposed to affect Housing Prices? Didn't. In fact, we're getting bad news from the guy who predicted the Housing Crash in 2007.

How about the cuts to the Affordable Care Act? The highest grant money that the Government paid out to nonprofit organizations that help people obtain health insurance under the Affordable Care Act in the last three years was 2016. That was 63 Million. In 2017, it was 36 Million. They went to 10 Million in 2018. I won't even go crazy. Not the entire 10 Billion. A tenth of that, 1 Billion dollars in Grant money so people could afford health care. We can magic up money for Concrete, but we can't for the health of our citizens?

And if 10 Billion dollars isn't the solution to all of our problems, it's at least a step in the right direction funneled into any of these worthier causes than a wall.

And I don't even know where you're getting your stats from. Emissions rose 3.4 percent. The biggest increase in eight years. Odd that. And ACA enrollment fell 4 percent from 2017. Your wage increase is being eaten alive by inflation. Democratic plans like Michelle Obama's are shutdown by Trump's Administration.

You state my view on Republicans necessitate the fact that they are evil. I assume you mean the average Republican voter. And if so, I think that's kind of disingenuous. Mainly because I never even said the word Republican in that post. I said Egos. I said a segment of the population. I don't think all Republicans are one way. I stated that many times.

I did say Trump because I do think he's cartoonishly incompetent. To ignore how cancerous Trump's time in office has been for not only the nation, but the world entire is simply delusional. And to point out the wrong someone does isn't pretending. As you see, I'm coming with reports, studies, and facts. You might not even agree with them, but the fact that they are there negates any attempt to suggest I'm playing make believe.

The best thing I ever seen Trump do was cave in with the Shutdown. Which, of course, he created and publicly declared to do. He told Schumer that he'd take responsibility for it gladly... and then blamed the Democrats when it got too hot.

To assume this man is doing the best job he can is frighteningly sad. To believe he's doing it maliciously is an evil I really don't know I can readily put on someone. But he does these things. I'm merely pointing them out. If you think these things are negative sounding, don't look at me and say that I can't believe in the good of people. I didn't make these up. If you think they are bad or evil as you said someone who have to be to do these things... look at the person and people doing it. Not the person reporting it.

tstorm823:

Nedoras:

And it is accurate. There is no plan in place for this wall. I'm sure they have some things worked out, but actual experts and people in that industry have come out over and over again stating that the numbers coming out of the White House are way too low. There are people in the White House who do want it to be more than just a big, stupid wall, but Trump himself has literally dismissed anything else as being worthless bells and whistles. That the wall is what was needed. But we all know that wall will never happen, even if he got 5.7 billion dollar payments every year, it wouldn't be finished. The reason Democrats don't want to give him any money, is because it will end up like Bush's border fence. It'll be an unfinished, expensive project that ultimately did nothing other than sate a bunch of nutcases who think that people are going to cross the border and take over their boathouses. At this point even Trump knows it's not going to happen, not unless it's significantly rushed and done poorly, but I imagine that's what he wants anyway. He just wants a talking point to keep him in office. It's why he was spotted in a meeting showing people pictures of Bush's border fence stating that work on the wall was already in progress. It's all he has.

Trump did go ahead with the three week opening, but he did not want to. He was forced to because major airports were beginning to shutdown, and the Republicans were losing it at McConnel and demanding for this to end. Look, maybe Trump does genuinely believe that the wall is the only solution, but he's wrong. It's a waste of money and it will never be finished. Compromising with bad ideas isn't the way to go. Just because someone presents an incredibly stupid solution, with horrible arguments for why it'll work, doesn't mean you have to pay it any mind. You don't respond to bad behavior by giving in. Compromise for the sake of it, isn't a good thing. This whole notion of always needing to be bi-partisan and working things out is childish. It's naive. It's all Obama did his entire presidency and it screwed him and so many other people over.

You're mixing ideas and drawing conclusions that aren't fair. Trump wants a wall. Everything you say about that wall might be true. That doesn't mean Trump's against other forms of border security. He's against other forms if it means no wall, but that's not the same as being against them. I'm quite certain he's also put forward plans to hire more border control, which is certainly non-wall border security. Trump does not think the wall is THE solution, he just thinks that it is necessary.

Trump in the past has argued that the wall is cheaper than alternatives though. He's argued that it would be better than hiring a bunch of agents or using the money on tech. That only a wall can keep everything out. His intent really was to just make a big wall and that it would somehow work unlike the current fencing. That may have changed and he thinks otherwise now, but it's hard to say considering his thoughts on the matter seem to change every week.

The White House has put forward plans to hire more border control agents and the like in the past. John Kelley, while he was there, and Steven Miller have been pushing for other forms of security. Those two shut down any deal that was possible last year because they overrode Trump and were demanding much more money for things like drones and massively expanding what ICE is capable of doing. Which I find to be truly amusing. Schumer agreed to give Trump money to start work on the wall in exchange for DACA, only for Miller and Kelley to more than triple that price because they wanted all those "bells and whistles" that Trump doesn't care for. Which is yet another reason why it won't happen. Because the actual immigration hawks in the White House know the wall will be useless, yet with Trump there they need to ask for it which puts a massive bill in front of what they really want.

I'm not sure if he really thinks the wall is the solution. Maybe at one point he genuinely did, maybe he no longer does. At this point though, I really think he's desperate for a win. Him going around showing pictures of Bush's fence saying the wall is being built reeks of desperation. It's why I'm currently leaning towards his threat to declare a national emergency in three weeks if he doesn't get his money, may be serious this time around.

ObsidianJones:

-Trump's Proposed Sharp Logging Increase in 'efforts to stem the tide of all the wildfires'.

This is bad? Forest management is bad? Or did you ever wonder how much carbon is captured in lumber and paper? I don't know if there's much value in the forests in California, but letting someone tend the forest is a pretty good way to avoid leveling towns with infernos.

-All of a Sudden, the EPA's law enforcement hit a 30 year low. I guess people just stopped polluting... Oh. Wait. Trump just lessened all the restrictions he could, and then had his people cut jobs and funding to the EPA. A move that Harvard Studies believe will directly end the lives of 80,000 more Americans per year. Also read that as 5 times the number of deaths (14,645) by Firearms in 2018 .

Right, the administrations that passed environmental regulations bragged about how many lives they were saving because of course they did. Now people think removing the rules will kill that many extra people. Never do they consider that car companies aren't about to make less efficient cars again for the hell of it. Most actual environmental protection in America is done by states, localities, and the people themselves, and I guarantee that someone advocating for more power at the EPA isn't factoring in the state laws that match or exceed the EPA when they're calculating their death tolls.

We can go into Housing. Right off the Bat, Trump proposed cutting 8.8 Billion in HUD. Said proposal would also call for "the elimination of the federal community development block grant, which provides funds to communities to repair infrastructure, build affordable housing and create jobs", citing that it doesn't make that much of an impact.

But not everyone sees it that way. In this article, in one of the most Bipartisan moves I've even seen, Republican and Democratic mayors and officials came together as one to decry how removing Community Development Block Grant Program would be detrimental to the state of Massachusetts as a whole. They cite how the money benefits the state, not so blanket and noncommittal 'minimum impact' rhetoric that Trump and his administration cites.

They're block grants, they are noncommittal. It was literally a program taking federal money and distributing it to communities to use at their own discretion. Why is that federal responsibility? At best, that's Massachusetts wanting the federal government to take the blame for taxes it should be doing anyway. At worst, it's Massachusetts saying that all 50 states should be contributing to Massachusetts community development. That's one of the wealthiest states, they can pay for their own community development.

Oh, and also? The Tax cuts that was supposed to affect Housing Prices? Didn't. In fact, we're getting bad news from the guy who predicted the Housing Crash in 2007.

This is the first time I've heard this claim. I was under the impression that the tax reform was only explicitly bad for people who owned expensive homes. (Side note: looking into this, they dropped the mortgage interest write off cap to $750,000... holy crap, that is an eyewatering number. What the hell kind of mortgage costs a million dollars a year in interest? Like Jesus Christ, you could buy a town with that property value.) I'm not even sure the NYT was implying it would be a good thing for home values to fall. And like, if the housing market is in a bubble again, it'd be a lot smaller bubble bursting in a stronger economy, the effect of that might not actually be bad,

How about the cuts to the Affordable Care Act? The highest grant money that the Government paid out to nonprofit organizations that help people obtain health insurance under the Affordable Care Act in the last three years was 2016. That was 63 Million. In 2017, it was 36 Million. They went to 10 Million in 2018. I won't even go crazy. Not the entire 10 Billion. A tenth of that, 1 Billion dollars in Grant money so people could afford health care. We can magic up money for Concrete, but we can't for the health of our citizens?

You're talking about groups being paid to smooth out the rollout. That's not money that's getting people healthcare, that's money helping them navigate the marketplace website. More people should be able to do that without help after a few years experience, their should be fewer people in need of navigators. And that's just out of the people who are navigating, a lot of people were able to just renew their existing coverage this year. That's where the apocalyptic predictions came from, they thought enrollment was going to be waaay down and then all the re-enrollment rolled in on the last week.

And I don't even know where you're getting your stats from. Emissions rose 3.4 percent. The biggest increase in eight years. Odd that.

That's quite the recent thing, I was referring to the multiple years of downward trend. And I'm taking this one with a grain of salt, preemptive estimates have a poor track record.

And ACA enrollment fell 4 percent from 2017.

They expected it to drop double digits until the last minute, and it should drop if full-time employment is up. That's a good thing.

Your wage increase is being eaten alive by inflation.

Yes, one person's increased wages come from increased spending by another. What's important is that there was growth, and what's more important is seeing where the trend goes moving forward.

Democratic plans like Michelle Obama's are shutdown by Trump's Administration.

And did her plan accomplish anything?

You state my view on Republicans necessitate the fact that they are evil. I assume you mean the average Republican voter. And if so, I think that's kind of disingenuous. Mainly because I never even said the word Republican in that post. I said Egos. I said a segment of the population. I don't think all Republicans are one way. I stated that many times.

I meant the politicians. I meant the people cutting funding to healthcare marketplace navigators and reforming the tax code. The people enacting the policies you're complaining about.

I'm merely pointing them out. If you think these things are negative sounding, don't look at me and say that I can't believe in the good of people. I didn't make these up. If you think they are bad or evil as you said someone who have to be to do these things... look at the person and people doing it. Not the person reporting it.

I think you think they're negative sounding. But some of them I don't think are negatives, and some of them I don't think you're giving a fair perspective. Proper perspective is the job of the messenger. Take healthcare, as an example. That 4% drop in enrollment you think is a bad thing. But if those few hundred thousand people are out of the individual marketplace because they gained full-time employment, that's a good thing. Hell, if it was a year ago, I'd be part of that statistic. Healthcare.gov is for the set of people who don't have employer-based insurance and aren't in medicare or medicaid. And if you're too wealthy to get subsidies, you probably don't bother with it. I'd prefer if nobody fell outside of those categories.But your mind defaults to the explanation that people left cause Republican policies neutered it.

tstorm823:
This is bad? Forest management is bad? Or did you ever wonder how much carbon is captured in lumber and paper? I don't know if there's much value in the forests in California, but letting someone tend the forest is a pretty good way to avoid leveling towns with infernos.

Speaking with the Washington Post, a fire ecologist from the University of Colorado Boulder said the increased logging might help quell a small percent of the fires that occur near homes but would do little to halt large-scale wildfires. Logging would also do nothing to fight fires fueled by dry brush.

Critics of the president's executive order also say the decision to log does little to address concerns from scientists that wildfires are more frequently being caused by climate change-induced conditions. Logging can also have other negative impacts, including disruption to wildlife habitat and erosion.

From the link I already posted.

Yes, it's bad when the experts say the measures you taken will only help in a small percent of fires that occur near homes, won't do anything for the Large-Scale Wildfires, will be harmful to wildlife and cause erosion. Given that California is already dealing with Mudslides, purposefully doing something that will possibly cause more of the same is not beneficial.

And personal note, it's taken me so long to respond after I read the comment "I don't know if there's much value in the forest in California. That alone told me we're not going to reach a concord or even breach mutual understanding here. We should probably wrap this up.

Right, the administrations that passed environmental regulations bragged about how many lives they were saving because of course they did. Now people think removing the rules will kill that many extra people. Never do they consider that car companies aren't about to make less efficient cars again for the hell of it. Most actual environmental protection in America is done by states, localities, and the people themselves, and I guarantee that someone advocating for more power at the EPA isn't factoring in the state laws that match or exceed the EPA when they're calculating their death tolls.

They completely consider that car companies aren't going to make less efficient cars for the hell of it. That's why there are emissions standards opposed on them. To reign what they are doing in efforts to protect what we have left.

And by the way, this Current Government always seeks to tell states what they can or can not do. From saying the FCC will block any Net Neutrality efforts to trying to come after States that Legalized Pot. In fact, Trump's EPA tried to Revoke California's ability to enforce it's own standards

But if American carmakers are good at anything, it's complaining about regulations that demand it produce cleaner, more efficient cars. The anti-regulation, climate change-doubting Trump administration seems to sympathize. But California's waiver makes it hard for the feds to weaken anything. Trump's team could have the EPA review the standards that govern cars through 2025, standards the agency finalized just a week before Obama left office. It would take years, likely face a legal challenge, and would require the EPA prove all the scientific data supporting its original decision is no longer valid.

I have no doubt that California would litigate, would sue EPA.

And even if the EPA won, the California exemption would still hold, and carmakers would still have to make cars that met it. So you can see why the Golden State is a key target. The New York Times reports "Automakers are also hopeful that the new EPA administrator, Scott Pruitt, will begin legal action to revoke California?s ability to enforce its tailpipe standards." Asked in his Senate confirmation hearing if he would leave the waiver process alone, Pruitt said, "I don?t know without going through the process to determine that. One would not want to presume the outcome."

Companies are in it for the money. They really don't care about what happens to the world. If they see an opening, they'll take it. If they can cash in on an idea while fooling us, they'll do it.

Oil Companies knew of Climate Change and ramifications in 1968. Volkswagen lied about their emissions and actively created an engine to falsely read as causing less emissions whenever a testing machine was set up.

Trump and his EPA made it easier for companies to dump their coal-ash waste into our waterways. Such waste is usually full of "lead, selenium and arsenic, which have been linked to cancer, cardiovascular disease and neurological disorders."

If this is Trump's actions, why would companies try to do better?

They're block grants, they are noncommittal. It was literally a program taking federal money and distributing it to communities to use at their own discretion. Why is that federal responsibility? At best, that's Massachusetts wanting the federal government to take the blame for taxes it should be doing anyway. At worst, it's Massachusetts saying that all 50 states should be contributing to Massachusetts community development. That's one of the wealthiest states, they can pay for their own community development.

Why is that Federal Responsibility? Because they said it was. If the taxes that were collected had a portion earmarked for these things that HUD was set up to do, and all of a sudden they go "you know what... we're really not going to do that. But thanks for the cash" It's wrong.

This is the first time I've heard this claim. I was under the impression that the tax reform was only explicitly bad for people who owned expensive homes. (Side note: looking into this, they dropped the mortgage interest write off cap to $750,000... holy crap, that is an eyewatering number. What the hell kind of mortgage costs a million dollars a year in interest? Like Jesus Christ, you could buy a town with that property value.) I'm not even sure the NYT was implying it would be a good thing for home values to fall. And like, if the housing market is in a bubble again, it'd be a lot smaller bubble bursting in a stronger economy, the effect of that might not actually be bad,

The White House was the one who put the plan in place and predicted the Home Value to fall.

The most intuitive consequence of the bill would be to lower home prices across the board. The White House itself predicted this several weeks before passage, in a paper by its Council of Economic Advisers.

"We project that equilibrium housing prices will experience a muted reduction of less than four percent," read the study.

I'll be honest with you, I'm losing the steam to actually want to continue this. I'm seeing it as pointless, as I might assume you are as well.

If I found an estimate that actually supported your view, would you have taken it with a grain of salt? I responded to your claim about ACA, and I'm met with it being a good thing that it's only a 4% drop. What's more important is what's happening moving forward? Then why mention the wage growth in the past at all? What's already been predicted going forward is that inflation is going to increase from 1.9 to 2.3. We don't even have accurate numbers of how many people are working multiple jobs in this country. I hope you're right. I hope wages come up and meet them so they have to ditch those jobs, but the fact that there's a large uncounted mass of Americans who have two or more jobs to live (let's not even talk about how the Teachers are being done) is just as telling as anything else. And yes, her plan accomplished things.

And to the Republican Politicians, I've read a lot of articles saying that they actually don't like Trump and how he affects their usual way of life. Yet they still vote for him whenever he says something. That speaks of typical politician cowardice. I hate it from the Democrats, I hate it from the Republicans.

But again, going to respond your last paragraph brings me back to thinking we should really wrap this up. This has just become responding and trying to get something past the other. This 4% part that you're trying to label as me saying is a bad thing, I never said was a bad thing. It was a paragraph about me not understanding where you got your stats from. I never weighed in on what I thought about your stats, just merely that I don't know where you're coming up with these things.

I never stated that people left ACA for any reason. I'm saying that Trump went out of his way to wreck it. I'm worried about how it will affect people. But I never stated that anyone left it for any reason. And you sit there and tell me what's on my mind and assign a viewpoint of something I've never said.

I'm not going to hide my distaste for Trump. I gave him a chance. He disappointed me in every option. But if we're not going to have a fair conversation, I think we both have better uses for our time.

ObsidianJones:

And personal note, it's taken me so long to respond after I read the comment "I don't know if there's much value in the forest in California." That alone told me we're not going to reach a concord or even breach mutual understanding here. We should probably wrap this up.

I just meant that I don't know if the forests that are prone to burn down are filled with valuable lumber. Some kinds of trees are more valuable than others, so if the trees there aren't good for lumber, and there's nothing to do but set the logs on fire anyway, then starting logging operations there is a stupid suggestion. I didn't mean to suggest nothing of value is lost in the wildfires, just that nothing of value might be made by logging the forests.

The White House was the one who put the plan in place and predicted the Home Value to fall.

A relatively obscure report projected a muted reduction in home values of less than 4 percent. And that projection was as opposed to much sharper declines predicted by related lines of research. Decreasing the cost of houses was not a goal of the tax reform, the paper cited there is all about establishing that changing mortgage related tax incentives wouldn't upend the housing market.

If I found an estimate that actually supported your view, would you have taken it with a grain of salt?

I have my doubts about their emissions estimates because they estimate based on the production and sale of fossil fuels, and they have them labelled as rough estimates because they don't have good data from Q4 yet, and from experience, I know that demand failed to meet supply this fall and made the gas prices drop a big chunk, suggesting reality didn't match expert projections in this case.

But again, going to respond your last paragraph brings me back to thinking we should really wrap this up. This has just become responding and trying to get something past the other. This 4% part that you're trying to label as me saying is a bad thing, I never said was a bad thing. It was a paragraph about me not understanding where you got your stats from. I never weighed in on what I thought about your stats, just merely that I don't know where you're coming up with these things.

I never stated that people left ACA for any reason. I'm saying that Trump went out of his way to wreck it. I'm worried about how it will affect people. But I never stated that anyone left it for any reason. And you sit there and tell me what's on my mind and assign a viewpoint of something I've never said.

Yeah, I've cut down to places where my comments might be worth your time still. Trump didn't go out of his way to wreck the ACA if the changes didn't wreck it. They fiddled about with some requirements and dropped the individual mandate to give people and companies more agency in their healthcare decisions, and the argument against this was that it would leave people with worse care and raise prices... and from what I can tell, people's healthcare is unchanged unless they want it to be changed and the price of insurance has finally stabilized. I don't think they wrecked the ACA, I think they improved it.

tstorm823:
the price of insurance has finally stabilized. I don't think they wrecked the ACA, I think they improved it.

The price of insurance has 'stabilized' at too much with deductibles that are too high. The ACA was (market-based) trash to begin with aside from the medicaid expansion and mandate of coverage for pre-existing conditions. What is needed is an elimination of the health insurance industry via a single-payer system paid for by taxes. With no deductibles. Health insurance company profits are literally a form of inefficiency.

tstorm823:
And did her plan accomplish anything?

There was so much going on with this, I am not even sure where to start. There are so many angles. Not only was the program not defined enough and was relying on a bad government faulty food pyramid, you had an extreme amount of sabotage from within the schools and those who compete for contracts as well. This was hit from so many angles, because sadly school contracts are big money and lots of underhanded shat goes on in that regard as well. We had everything from students being served onions as a vegetable requirement and intentionally making the food taste bad to some schools not having the funding to even serve healthy food. The only way they will make a healthy food program work in schools is if they actually fund it themselves, take contracts out of state and school districts hands by providing the food themselves, have standard menus and recipes, and not use the faulty standard government approved food pyramid. They also have to have alternative options available for students who are not able to tolerate milk, wheat, nuts and certain fruits and fish for every meal provided by schools. This is a monumental task, and will likely have to have a crapton of work done after implementation to get it right. Removing the politics of food contracts is the biggest hurdle, because no matter what you try to do, those who have money to lose or gain from this will sabotage any efforts to get it right regardless. The program was doomed before it ever got started and of course Trump would do nothing to improve it as he was on the side of those who actively sabotage any efforts to improve lunches or address malnutrition and obesity, which actually can go hand in hand.

https://drhyman.com/blog/2012/02/29/how-malnutrition-causes-obesity/

EDIT: when I was in school the food was so bad and gross, I brought my lunch so I could have food that was not going to put me in the hospital and overly processed gross crap. For me to have foods such as fresh broccoli, grapes, seeds and soup I had to bring my own.

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