Racist

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So we have a few people on here who might trot out this term a bit too often.

But the response fascinates me. It doesn't come to a discussion on whether the words that 'racist' was applied to was actually racist. Or different interpretations of the word racist.

No, it becomes an all out brawl on shutting down the opposition without thinking about their position. Usually in that same discussion, someone points out how the word shuts down conversations (which is correct) while simultaneously shutting down the person who uses the word racist. And the latter learns absolutely nothing other than everybody is a hypocrite.

PS. I think this site is actually much better with trigger words like racist. There are many worse places out there. But it still happens.

Also, discussion on what you think is/not racist would interest me.

Seriously, fix embedding videos. I have this saved for a reason, now I have to transcribe this shit.

['It's tough to say that somebody is not racist when they do all the racist things, you know sometimes I feel like we need to invent a racism Richter scale. Because racism in America is such a loaded word. It feels like people are more afraid of being called racist than actually being racist. People go 'Don't call me racist, I may do these things but you don't call me racist'. If Donald Trump chooses an adviser who has a platform that specifically caters to a movement that is neo-Nazi and white supremacist, what do you call that? People go 'I don't say the N word, and I don't hang anybody so I cant be racist' and I go, we'll, there's levels']

-Trevor Noah, transcribed by me with slight errors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kMswKahYug

Quote happens at about 01:23

If people don't like being called racist, then they need to stop doing racist things, saying racist things and being racist. I don't feel bad when I call someone racist, cause I am usually right. And no, telling me other racists aren't bad wont convince me you're not racist.

Do images still work on the site?

image

White people need to stop being so defensive about racism. Take a minute, cool off if you need to, and if you really don't understand why, ask.

Politely.

Marik2:
Do images still work on the site?

image

Yes, they work.

Also, I don't think racist has ever won an argument.

But you can't talk about what racism is anyway, so it's a moot point

Here's the thing - we all assume racism means white Americans being anti-black. If we're going to use it to its true definition, any race can be racist against any other race.
No, there is no such thing as reverse racism - its just racism. Yes historically in the United States white people have held disproportionate power and have been racist towards African Americans. But that does not mean black people can't be racists towards whites, Asians, Arabic, you name it.

and I know I'm on a rant, but one thing I hate is the idea of racism equality. Meaning that yes whites have been racists towards blacks for 200 years, therefore in fairness blacks get to be racists back for 200 years. Yes, its not fair. Yes history sucks. But each generation of every race is better, more liberal and progressive than the last. Just treat white people in your life the same way you would anyone else. Trust me, whites don't care anymore. Or at least the ones worth knowing don't.

Silentpony:
Here's the thing - we all assume racism means white Americans being anti-black. If we're going to use it to its true definition, any race can be racist against any other race.
No, there is no such thing as reverse racism - its just racism. Yes historically in the United States white people have held disproportionate power and have been racist towards African Americans. But that does not mean black people can't be racists towards whites, Asians, Arabic, you name it.

and I know I'm on a rant, but one thing I hate is the idea of racism equality. Meaning that yes whites have been racists towards blacks for 200 years, therefore in fairness blacks get to be racists back for 200 years. Yes, its not fair. Yes history sucks. But each generation of every race is better, more liberal and progressive than the last. Just treat white people in your life the same way you would anyone else. Trust me, whites don't care anymore. Or at least the ones worth knowing don't.

Yes, black people can be racist, women can be sexist, etc. The thing is, one side often gets to exert their bigotry more than the other. Sexism against women is far more rampant than sexism against men. We should strive to eliminate sexism period, but pretending sexism is 'equally applied' wont help. Same with racism and every other kind of bigotry.

Yes, 'All lives matter', but so do blacklives, and saying All lives matter means shit when you're just using that as an excuse to ignore the plight black people face.

Straight white men shot up a synagogue, and a predominately black church. A straight white man sent bombs to a bunch of people, a straight white man ran over a woman protesting bigotry. Oh, and they were all right-wingers too.

It sucks getting a paper cut, but that doesnt mean your suffering is equal to someone who lost their whole arm, or has cancer. Sure you deserve a kiss and a bandaid, but not if it means keeping those with more severe issues from being treated.

Silentpony:
Here's the thing - we all assume racism means white Americans being anti-black. If we're going to use it to its true definition, any race can be racist against any other race.
No, there is no such thing as reverse racism - its just racism. Yes historically in the United States white people have held disproportionate power and have been racist towards African Americans. But that does not mean black people can't be racists towards whites, Asians, Arabic, you name it.

and I know I'm on a rant, but one thing I hate is the idea of racism equality. Meaning that yes whites have been racists towards blacks for 200 years, therefore in fairness blacks get to be racists back for 200 years. Yes, its not fair. Yes history sucks. But each generation of every race is better, more liberal and progressive than the last. Just treat white people in your life the same way you would anyone else. Trust me, whites don't care anymore. Or at least the ones worth knowing don't.

This is fundamental fact. While a power struggle can arise from racism, not every racist action is a power struggle. It depends on the societal make up to assign power to one group or another.

In America, the reigns of power happens to end up in the hands of White America.

But much like the Racism point that SilentPony points out, that doesn't mean every white person can control what happens to minorities. It simply means that in our society, average people look for similarities when figuring out how to deal with someone. Common backgrounds, shared experiences will endear one person to another, while uncommon backgrounds and divergent experiences might put an alien spin to circumstances and make one party assume the worst.

This is the underlying idea of "White Privilege", mind you. It's not that you get a thousand dollars every week because you're white, or you get superpowers. It's a White Male Judge thinking "Boys will be boys, I did that when I was his age" when a white teen is brought in front of him for smoking weed and giving him a warning... and then looking at a black kid who did the exact same thing and thinking "Oh, he's already a lost cause. Better put him in jail to keep him from harming others".

It's how white people can be treated like an individual while minorities must be a monolith, having to answer for all of the crimes that can be associated with said race.

Case in point of white americans being allowed to be an individual instead of a part of a "systemic problem with the white race that we really need to discuss" (like so many biased people want to talk about Black America) is that when we have the white active shooters who just so happen to belong to hate groups or are found in nationalist gatherings and/or sites... they are always the 'Lone Wolf'.

At most their actions can only be linked the the extremist hate groups they are a part of. Never the race itself. Any attempts to link the two would be laughed out of conversation. But again, "what about that Black on Black Crime, yo?".

I don't know how many people are racist in America. But I know there are too many biased people the world to actually count. And that is the problem. There is a huge difference between Biased and Racist. Even if Biased people are doing it on racial lines. If someone thinks it's not Blacks' fault that they have to steal all the time because they didn't have a good family at home... That's Biased. There is no talk of hate. There is no condemning. There's no voting to strip them of their rights.

It's patently stupid. It's assigning everyone of a certain group as being one thing, while they know they aren't like everyone in their group. But it's not racist.

The line is very simple. One that I had to learn for myself. And I have to admit it's hard when you're usually under scrutiny like I am to try to remain objective. I fail sometimes, but I need to know what's happening so I can understand an older person's words and not jump all over them when they aren't meaning harm.

Biased is when you take a preconceived notion and base your interaction with a person fitting that preconceived notion instead of learning about them.

Racist is when you only take negative associated notions for a racial group and base any interaction you have with any individual of that group as either proving said negative associated notions and/or condemning them based on their race.

Lastly. Biased is not always hateful. Look at race-based romantic fetishes. People sniff around black men because of "reported advantages". Same like certain guys sniff around Asian women because of "reported disadvantages" in Asian men, so whatever they have will seem like a winner.

Saelune:

Silentpony:
Here's the thing - we all assume racism means white Americans being anti-black. If we're going to use it to its true definition, any race can be racist against any other race.
No, there is no such thing as reverse racism - its just racism. Yes historically in the United States white people have held disproportionate power and have been racist towards African Americans. But that does not mean black people can't be racists towards whites, Asians, Arabic, you name it.

and I know I'm on a rant, but one thing I hate is the idea of racism equality. Meaning that yes whites have been racists towards blacks for 200 years, therefore in fairness blacks get to be racists back for 200 years. Yes, its not fair. Yes history sucks. But each generation of every race is better, more liberal and progressive than the last. Just treat white people in your life the same way you would anyone else. Trust me, whites don't care anymore. Or at least the ones worth knowing don't.

Yes, black people can be racist, women can be sexist, etc. The thing is, one side often gets to exert their bigotry more than the other. Sexism against women is far more rampant than sexism against men. We should strive to eliminate sexism period, but pretending sexism is 'equally applied' wont help. Same with racism and every other kind of bigotry.

Yes, 'All lives matter', but so do blacklives, and saying All lives matter means shit when you're just using that as an excuse to ignore the plight black people face.

Straight white men shot up a synagogue, and a predominately black church. A straight white man sent bombs to a bunch of people, a straight white man ran over a woman protesting bigotry. Oh, and they were all right-wingers too.

It sucks getting a paper cut, but that doesnt mean your suffering is equal to someone who lost their whole arm, or has cancer. Sure you deserve a kiss and a bandaid, but not if it means keeping those with more severe issues from being treated.

What I mean is that white people don't deserve racism, any more than any other race.
Yes in the United States the majority of terrorists, which is what shooters are, are white. They are terrible people, they are not supported by the majority of whites, and they do not belong on this good Earth.

Yes racism is not equally applied and yes there is a shit load of historical and institutional racism in white culture to be dealt with. But that shouldn't be a blank check, to assume until the scales are balanced, it's fair game. I am white and straight, but that does not mean i should be lumped into the same group as a straight white man who shoots up a school. Its the same logic that sees us not lumping ever Muslim into the same group as ISIS. They share traits in the same what I share traits with that fuckface who ran over a woman. But we're not the same.

To use your injury analogy, yes, absolutely cancer and limb damage are worse than a paper cut. Yes, no doubt. But paper cuts still bleed and deliberately inflicting them is no more acceptable than inflicting caner. Yes one is 1000x worse, but both are done with malice, and if one side could inflict cancer, they would. That's the danger. Its not about will to hurt, its about power.
If the only thing preventing one side from inflicting cancer is that they don't have the power to do it, that's just as bad as the side that does.
Yes of course the side that actually does is more at fault, but if both sides want to hurt the other, neither are more noble.

Silentpony:
Here's the thing - we all assume racism means white Americans being anti-black. If we're going to use it to its true definition, any race can be racist against any other race.
No, there is no such thing as reverse racism - its just racism. Yes historically in the United States white people have held disproportionate power and have been racist towards African Americans. But that does not mean black people can't be racists towards whites, Asians, Arabic, you name it.

and I know I'm on a rant, but one thing I hate is the idea of racism equality. Meaning that yes whites have been racists towards blacks for 200 years, therefore in fairness blacks get to be racists back for 200 years. Yes, its not fair. Yes history sucks. But each generation of every race is better, more liberal and progressive than the last. Just treat white people in your life the same way you would anyone else. Trust me, whites don't care anymore. Or at least the ones worth knowing don't.

On these very forums I have personally seen racism against Native Americans, Latinos, Indians, and Blacks, mostly through promotion of ignorance about other cultures, though some have outright been hateful, however, the vast majority of those who did such things were quickly banned. So yea, I cannot agree to assume that racism means "anti black" and am not sure why anyone thinks it just means that.

I disagree that every generation is less racist, it seems to slide at times, as it is currently. When It becomes trendy to be racist again, it creates amore racist society as a whole. Currently, openly racist groups are growing, not shrinking in the US.

If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

trunkage:
So we have a few people on here who might trot out this term a bit too often.

But the response fascinates me. It doesn't come to a discussion on whether the words that 'racist' was applied to was actually racist. Or different interpretations of the word racist.

No, it becomes an all out brawl on shutting down the opposition without thinking about their position. Usually in that same discussion, someone points out how the word shuts down conversations (which is correct) while simultaneously shutting down the person who uses the word racist. And the latter learns absolutely nothing other than everybody is a hypocrite.

PS. I think this site is actually much better with trigger words like racist. There are many worse places out there. But it still happens.

Also, discussion on what you think is/not racist would interest me.

I don't see that using the word racist shuts down discussion, I see that it opens discussion. We have had his discussion numerous times before. Most racists are in denial that they are racist. Some of course are proud to be racists, but the vast majority of racists have no idea they are actually racist because they do not understand what it means. It often takes one being called out for their racism to make them self reflect on whether or not they are an actual racist and the first step to dealing with that issue is admitting it is even an issue to begin with.

When you listen to what "recovering Racists" actually tell us, you see that them acknowledging their racism was a problem was the first step to them changing it.

as for definition:

Racism

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

For example, it is antagonisng Latinos to portray them as demons with sombreros surrounding Trump with him shooting them, as was done on these forums, therefore that was a racist thing to do.

To claim that Native Americans do not have the intellectual capacity to govern and police thesemselvs thus why the US government has to do it for them, as was also done on these forums is racist.

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

I don't think " public shame" is what is coming to mind when the word racist is used, it is usually used to draw attention to the person that what they stated was racist and have them self reflect rather than to shame them.

It is not unlike when someone doesn't hold the door and it hits you in the face and you tell them " hey don't be rude" not to shame them, but to hope that next time they hold the door. It is said in the hopes they will learn from it and adjust their actions so the next person walking behind them does not get hit in the face with the door.

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

trunkage:

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

Pointing out that someone is being racist is not " just as bad" as someone actually being racist. If the person was not being racist and making an arse of themselves to begin with, no one would have said anything in the first place. They point it out to hopefully make them stop being an arse. Not unlike asking someone not to pick their nose and wipe it on your coat. Asking them not to pick their nose and wipe it on their coat does not make them just as bad. It is they do not wish to be around that behavior.

Conflating them as being the same when they are not is diminishing the message behind them telling them to stop being a racist in the first place.

trunkage:

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

Never? I think you need to elaborate on what you mean cause never is quite the bold claim. You're bordering 'enlightened centrism' with this.

trunkage:
As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

I'd think if someone was actually guilty of some wrongdoing, one could illustrate that without resorting to buzzwords that have arguably lost all meaning.

Lil devils x:

I don't think " public shame" is what is coming to mind when the word racist is used, it is usually used to draw attention to the person that what they stated was racist and have them self reflect rather than to shame them.

It is not unlike when someone doesn't hold the door and it hits you in the face and you tell them " hey don't be rude" not to shame them, but to hope that next time they hold the door. It is said in the hopes they will learn from it and adjust their actions so the next person walking behind them does not get hit in the face with the door.

In that example, a bit of self awareness is actually useful in preventing harm(which makes it a good analogy for cultural insensitivity). What I've found is that when it comes to discussions of race, it's open to interpretation if something is objectively harmful. Getting past preconceptions and getting to the root of how any way something is racist is like pulling teeth.

Seanchaidh:
White people need to stop being so defensive about racism. Take a minute, cool off if you need to, and if you really don't understand why, ask.

Politely.

You're right, whites need to stop pretending minorities, and even other white people, can't be racist towards them.
Wise ass comment aside, there are good reasons to be defensive about it nowadays. The definition of racism is being immensely stretched and it is used so casually it starts to take absurd proportion. Add to that we live in an era where if you say something "wrong" on the wrong time and place you can become a social media mob victim and defensiveness starts to take equally absurd proportions as the aggressiveness of the opposite side.

This doesn't mean there is no racism and accusations are never justified, but the current context just asks for people to act extremely defensive.

I've been thinking about this problem a lot, in the context of self-harm behavior. A common practice among psychiatric staff inexperienced at treating self-harm behavior is to have the patient promise not to self-harm (in itself not a bad practice, mind you). The natural reaction when the patient self-harms is then to call the patient a liar, or unreliable or a letdown or something similar. Do any of you believe that this makes the patient go "Oh, they are right, I broke a promise so that makes me an unreliable liar. I should work harder not to break my promises"? Or does it make the patient feel rejected and called out?

The context is not the same in these discussions, but in terms of fostering discussion and trust, leading with an accusation or slur is rarely a good way to go. It doesn't matter if the slur used is racist, fascist, misogynist, snowflake, SJW, NPC, communist, asshole or psychopath, because whoever is on the receiving end will not stop to think "Huh, I never realized I was a SJW communist racist misogynist". No, they'll see the attack on their character and will react to the attack by getting defensive.

Which is why, I believe, a lot of people tend to dogpile whoever used an insult first, rather then the person who might have been correctly labelled by the insult. Because the person getting insulted might express opinions I abhor, but the insulting person is shutting down the discussion. And that discussion is what we need to understand each other and make those with terrible opinions change their mind.

Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy. You can say a position is racist and that someone may need to reconsider it but if you jump to associating someone who holds certain views with them having overt racial hatred in their heart you have jumped the shark.

And no, "unconscious racism" which is a tentative concept isn't racism, it's just the normal outcome of life experience that is outside of people's control, that they shouldn't be made to feel responsible for, cause they're not responsible for it. This is actually a prime example of applying racism to too many things, diluting its meaning in the process.

Bias stemming out of life experience that we use to make snap judgements without consciously thinking about it is called COMMON SENSE so when you see that turn into something that resembles racism you want to actually look at why that is and not write off people as though they're the same as those who actually hate people based on their arbitrary characteristics such as their race.

Gethsemani:
I've been thinking about this problem a lot, in the context of self-harm behavior. A common practice among psychiatric staff inexperienced at treating self-harm behavior is to have the patient promise not to self-harm (in itself not a bad practice, mind you). The natural reaction when the patient self-harms is then to call the patient a liar, or unreliable or a letdown or something similar. Do any of you believe that this makes the patient go "Oh, they are right, I broke a promise so that makes me an unreliable liar. I should work harder not to break my promises"? Or does it make the patient feel rejected and called out?

The context is not the same in these discussions, but in terms of fostering discussion and trust, leading with an accusation or slur is rarely a good way to go. It doesn't matter if the slur used is racist, fascist, misogynist, snowflake, SJW, NPC, communist, asshole or psychopath, because whoever is on the receiving end will not stop to think "Huh, I never realized I was a SJW communist racist misogynist". No, they'll see the attack on their character and will react to the attack by getting defensive.

Which is why, I believe, a lot of people tend to dogpile whoever used an insult first, rather then the person who might have been correctly labelled by the insult. Because the person getting insulted might express opinions I abhor, but the insulting person is shutting down the discussion. And that discussion is what we need to understand each other and make those with terrible opinions change their mind.

The word " racist" however, is not a " slur" it has a specific definition, it is a descriptive term hat serves a purpose. equating it to name calling takes away it meaning and makes it no different than calling someone a "buttface" and it is not, nor should it ever be considered to be "the same as", as that reduces the meaning and purpose. We do not have other well known terms that mean exactly what it does, thus it is the appropriate word to be used. Removing it's usage and meaning only goes to serve the purpose of promoting racism by attempting to remove terms to identify racism from the conversation. Making it so it is not " appropriate" to call racism out when you see it only serves to normalize racism.

People should call racism out when they see it, as that is the primary way to show that it is not acceptable or normal in society. It is much easier to callit what it is than attempt to think of many other words to say what you can mean with one simple word that is already well recognized. Powder puffing it and attempting to make it sound prettier does not help the purpose of reducing it, it only makes it more acceptable for people to do. When you actually listen to former racists, they do not attempt to pretend that it was not racism, they use the word as well.

Dreiko:
Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy. You can say a position is racist and that someone may need to reconsider it but if you jump to associating someone who holds certain views with them having overt racial hatred in their heart you have jumped the shark.

And no, "unconscious racism" which is a tentative concept isn't racism, it's just the normal outcome of life experience that is outside of people's control, that they shouldn't be made to feel responsible for, cause they're not responsible for it. This is actually a prime example of applying racism to too many things, diluting its meaning in the process.

Bias stemming out of life experience that we use to make snap judgements without consciously thinking about it is called COMMON SENSE so when you see that turn into something that resembles racism you want to actually look at why that is and not write off people as though they're the same as those who actually hate people based on their arbitrary characteristics such as their race.

This is terribly false. Unconscious racism is something they can control once they become aware of it, and many who have become aware of it have overcome these things. Claiming they cannot and removing all responsibility of one to do so only serves to promote and normalize it rather than actually take responsibility and address it. Yes, we have plenty former Racists, who have spoken a great deal on the subject and addressing their unconscious racism was one of the things they discuss having to overcome. Once a person realizes they are doing something, they have the ability to see it for what it is and make changes. The first step to doing that is becoming aware that it is happening in the first place.

Attempting to claim that they are not capable of making changes once they become aware of it happening is just making excuses to continue bad behavior rather than make an effort to correct it. This applies to many things, not just racism mind you.

For example, They found that unconscious racism in healthcare was resulting in Healthcare workers thinking that black people were in less pain than white people with the same conditions resulting in them providing them with less pain medicine. Once we become aware of this, we can make the necessary changes to change that perception. This is not something that can't be changed, of course it can be changed, it just takes people becoming aware that it is happening in the first place and to actively recognize they are doing it. Once people are actively aware of this, they start to treat the patients equally.

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:
Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy. You can say a position is racist and that someone may need to reconsider it but if you jump to associating someone who holds certain views with them having overt racial hatred in their heart you have jumped the shark.

And no, "unconscious racism" which is a tentative concept isn't racism, it's just the normal outcome of life experience that is outside of people's control, that they shouldn't be made to feel responsible for, cause they're not responsible for it. This is actually a prime example of applying racism to too many things, diluting its meaning in the process.

Bias stemming out of life experience that we use to make snap judgements without consciously thinking about it is called COMMON SENSE so when you see that turn into something that resembles racism you want to actually look at why that is and not write off people as though they're the same as those who actually hate people based on their arbitrary characteristics such as their race.

This is terribly false. Unconscious racism is something they can control once they become aware of it, and many who have become aware of it have overcome these things. Claiming they cannot and removing all responsibility of one to do so only serves to promote and normalize it rather than actually take responsibility and address it. Yes, we have plenty former Racists, who have spoken a great deal on the subject and addressing their unconscious racism was one of the things they discuss having to overcome. Once a person realizes they are doing something, they have the ability to see it for what it is and make changes. The first step to doing that is becoming aware that it is happening in the first place.

I think your definition is shaky if you are describing something one is aware of as "unconscious".

You can be aware of your biases and work towards minimizing their impact on your choice-making but if something's unconscious you by definition aren't even aware of it in the first place and so you can't remedy it. And no, someone else telling you that you are being racist doesn't fix this, because if you don't actually think that you are then you still won't be adjusting your behavior in a meaningful way. It will at best be a facade that you put on while building resentment at being ordered around by authoritarian busybodies.

You can actually convince someone of the fact that their position is racist and have them reform themselves but the moment that happens their racism ceases to be unconscious basically. And whatever unconscious racism they still have after this will still not be remedied, as they still won't be aware of it being there.

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:
Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy. You can say a position is racist and that someone may need to reconsider it but if you jump to associating someone who holds certain views with them having overt racial hatred in their heart you have jumped the shark.

And no, "unconscious racism" which is a tentative concept isn't racism, it's just the normal outcome of life experience that is outside of people's control, that they shouldn't be made to feel responsible for, cause they're not responsible for it. This is actually a prime example of applying racism to too many things, diluting its meaning in the process.

Bias stemming out of life experience that we use to make snap judgements without consciously thinking about it is called COMMON SENSE so when you see that turn into something that resembles racism you want to actually look at why that is and not write off people as though they're the same as those who actually hate people based on their arbitrary characteristics such as their race.

This is terribly false. Unconscious racism is something they can control once they become aware of it, and many who have become aware of it have overcome these things. Claiming they cannot and removing all responsibility of one to do so only serves to promote and normalize it rather than actually take responsibility and address it. Yes, we have plenty former Racists, who have spoken a great deal on the subject and addressing their unconscious racism was one of the things they discuss having to overcome. Once a person realizes they are doing something, they have the ability to see it for what it is and make changes. The first step to doing that is becoming aware that it is happening in the first place.

I think your definition is shaky if you are describing something one is aware of as "unconscious".

You can be aware of your biases and work towards minimizing their impact on your choice-making but if something's unconscious you by definition aren't even aware of it in the first place and so you can't remedy it. And no, someone else telling you that you are being racist doesn't fix this, because if you don't actually think that you are then you still won't be adjusting your behavior in a meaningful way. It will at best be a facade that you put on while building resentment at being ordered around by authoritarian busybodies.

You can actually convince someone of the fact that their position is racist and have them reform themselves but the moment that happens their racism ceases to be unconscious basically. And whatever unconscious racism they still have after this will still not be remedied, as they still won't be aware of it being there.

I added an example above. You are not aware of it until it is drawn to your attention. Once you become aware of it however, you can work to resolve it. It often does take someone, some group, some study, or some external source pointing out your racism for you to recognize it happening yourself. Less frequently, one can suddenly realize it is happening but usually it does take something/ someone externally bringing it to their attention for them to become aware of it. Not everyone has "building resentment" to trying to better themselves, that is what is considered a negative personality trait that is only experienced by certain personality types, not everyone in society. Not everyone views it as " being ordered around" instead they realize "I can't believe I was doing that, I don't want to harm anyone, I really have to work on this so I don't do it again". Some people believe it or not, accept responsibility for their own actions and do not view it as others causing their problems.

Lil devils x:

People should call racism out when they see it, as that is the primary way to show that it is not acceptable or normal in society. It is much easier to callit what it is than attempt to think of many other words to say what you can mean with one simple word that is already well recognized. Powder puffing it and attempting to make it sound prettier does not help the purpose of reducing it, it only makes it more acceptable for people to do. When you actually listen to former racists, they do not attempt to pretend that it was not racism, they use the word as well.

Here's the problem though, people don't only see racism when there is racism. Add to that some people tend to identify a person as being racist just because of one action (like a misplaced joke which is not part of a trend).
And as if that wasn't enough those same people seem unable to see clear racism when the "victim" belongs to the wrong group. All leading to the indisputable conclusion that people are badly equipped to correctly identify racism due to their own biases (and as society/political debates become more polarized this further worsens as both sides become more and more eager to jump the shark to prove themselves right)

As such it would actually be constructive not to call racism out when you see it, rather it should be done when it is obviously displayed or investigated. Examples would be: when someone is waving a nazi flag while chanting racist slurs or finding out that someone who has made a dodgy "comment" or "joke" didn't just make that one but continuously makes them and seems to target them at specific groups.

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

This is terribly false. Unconscious racism is something they can control once they become aware of it, and many who have become aware of it have overcome these things. Claiming they cannot and removing all responsibility of one to do so only serves to promote and normalize it rather than actually take responsibility and address it. Yes, we have plenty former Racists, who have spoken a great deal on the subject and addressing their unconscious racism was one of the things they discuss having to overcome. Once a person realizes they are doing something, they have the ability to see it for what it is and make changes. The first step to doing that is becoming aware that it is happening in the first place.

I think your definition is shaky if you are describing something one is aware of as "unconscious".

You can be aware of your biases and work towards minimizing their impact on your choice-making but if something's unconscious you by definition aren't even aware of it in the first place and so you can't remedy it. And no, someone else telling you that you are being racist doesn't fix this, because if you don't actually think that you are then you still won't be adjusting your behavior in a meaningful way. It will at best be a facade that you put on while building resentment at being ordered around by authoritarian busybodies.

You can actually convince someone of the fact that their position is racist and have them reform themselves but the moment that happens their racism ceases to be unconscious basically. And whatever unconscious racism they still have after this will still not be remedied, as they still won't be aware of it being there.

I added an example above. You are not aware of it until it is drawn to your attention. Once you become aware of it however, you can work to resolve it. It often does take someone, some group, some study, or some external source pointing out your racism for you to recognize it happening yourself. Less frequently, one can suddenly realize it is happening but usually it does take something/ someone externally bringing it to their attention for them to become aware of it. Not everyone has "building resentment" to trying to better themselves, that is what is considered a negative personality trait that is only experienced by certain personality types, not everyone in society. Not everyone views it as " being ordered around" instead they realize "I can't believe I was doing that, I don't want to harm anyone, I really have to work on this so I don't do it again". Some people believe it or not, accept responsibility for their own actions and do not view it as others causing their problems.

Seeing your example, I still think racism doesn't make sense in this context. Surely doctors didn't actually harbor negative emotions about black patients, as their readiness to adjust their behavior showcases. You can have different treatment of racial groups without it being bigotry and it just being a matter of cultural differences. Maybe, due to our culture, we cause black people to be less open about exhibiting pain, so they didn't seem to be in as much pain not due to the fault of the doctors but due to their own stoicism. It's just over-broad to apply racism to these things, too mismatched. It's like trying to slice a carrot with a sword.

Ultimately, for the reform to happen, people need to be shown not that they harbor "unconscious racism" but rather that they manifest racist behaviors. To link the two is not useful and it creates a form of "original sin" that you can never be washed clear of cause you can't prove the negative of your subconscious being clean of racism. I think merely focusing on the actual behavior without trying to paint people with politically expedient to us characteristics will do the most good here.

Lil devils x:

For example, They found that unconscious racism in healthcare was resulting in Healthcare workers thinking that black people were in less pain than white people with the same conditions resulting in them providing them with less pain medicine. Once we become aware of this, we can make the necessary changes to change that perception. This is not something that can't be changed, of course it can be changed, it just takes people becoming aware that it is happening in the first place and to actively recognize they are doing it. Once people are actively aware of this, they start to treat the patients equally.

You know what's cool about this? All you need to do is put the data in front of someone, point out the mistake they're making, and having a rational discussion about the implications and how they should change their behavior. The accusation of racism is completely absent and the dialog is better because of it.

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

I think your definition is shaky if you are describing something one is aware of as "unconscious".

You can be aware of your biases and work towards minimizing their impact on your choice-making but if something's unconscious you by definition aren't even aware of it in the first place and so you can't remedy it. And no, someone else telling you that you are being racist doesn't fix this, because if you don't actually think that you are then you still won't be adjusting your behavior in a meaningful way. It will at best be a facade that you put on while building resentment at being ordered around by authoritarian busybodies.

You can actually convince someone of the fact that their position is racist and have them reform themselves but the moment that happens their racism ceases to be unconscious basically. And whatever unconscious racism they still have after this will still not be remedied, as they still won't be aware of it being there.

I added an example above. You are not aware of it until it is drawn to your attention. Once you become aware of it however, you can work to resolve it. It often does take someone, some group, some study, or some external source pointing out your racism for you to recognize it happening yourself. Less frequently, one can suddenly realize it is happening but usually it does take something/ someone externally bringing it to their attention for them to become aware of it. Not everyone has "building resentment" to trying to better themselves, that is what is considered a negative personality trait that is only experienced by certain personality types, not everyone in society. Not everyone views it as " being ordered around" instead they realize "I can't believe I was doing that, I don't want to harm anyone, I really have to work on this so I don't do it again". Some people believe it or not, accept responsibility for their own actions and do not view it as others causing their problems.

Seeing your example, I still think racism doesn't make sense in this context. Surely doctors didn't actually harbor negative emotions about black patients, as their readiness to adjust their behavior showcases. You can have different treatment of racial groups without it being bigotry and it just being a matter of cultural differences. Maybe, due to our culture, we cause black people to be less open about exhibiting pain, so they didn't seem to be in as much pain not due to the fault of the doctors but due to their own stoicism. It's just over-broad to apply racism to these things, too mismatched. It's like trying to slice a carrot with a sword.

Ultimately, for the reform to happen, people need to be shown not that they harbor "unconscious racism" but rather that they manifest racist behaviors. To link the two is not useful and it creates a form of "original sin" that you can never be washed clear of cause you can't prove the negative of your subconscious being clean of racism. I think merely focusing on the actual behavior without trying to paint people with politically expedient to us characteristics will do the most good here.

When you review the definition of racism above, it is not just about thinking necessarily negative things about another race, it is also believing ( ignorantly so) that "races possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." so that by thinking that Black people feel less pain, and not even realizing you are doing it, you are experiencing unconscious racism. It is no different than thinking that one race is more trustworthy than another or that one race makes better Physicians than another. It is all nonsense, and yes racist.

In the pain studies for color vs pain perception, one portion just had a silent film of puncturing the skin with a needle. People felt more empathy and pain perception to all colors, including purple and blue than they did for black skin. There is far more to this than cultural differences.

In the housing studies, they showed that realtors showed Black couples making same or higher income than the white couples homes in lower income and black only neighborhoods and rarely showed them homes in predmoinamntly white neghborhoods unless specfically requested. They showed white coupleswith less income houses in predominantly white neghborhoods and higher income areas omitting the lower income and black neighborhoods entirely. Do you think that is conscious or unconscious racism to not show the wealthier Black couples homes in the affluent neighborhoods but only show Whites with lesser income?

When you listen to those who consider themselvs to be "recovering racists" they have told us that they don't want to call themselves "non racist" because they are always aware they still may harbor racist thought they have not yet become aware of. What is important though are actions and ones willingness to address it. This isn;t something that changes easily over night, it is something that society has conditioned over a long period of time thus will mhave to be something that society conditions over a long period of time to resolve. I think that most people do hold racially ignorant beliefs, people of all races do, and it takes time, communication and education to help us all overcome those things. I am still extremely uncomfortable being alone with white men due to my exeperinces. I have been raped, almost kidnapped, almost raped again, stalked, followed, attacked, my sister was raped, my grandmopther was raped, my cousin was raped my best friends were raped all by white men. Regardless of this, I do not think all white men are rapists, I have one sleeping in my bed as we speak, however, I do make sure I have an escape route and am not left alone without a means to get away when I am with a white man that I do not know as well. I do not feel this necessary with Hopi men because I do not know of any actual Hopi men who rape, nor do I know of anyone who was raped by one. 90% of Native American women who are raped are raped by white men, so yes, we are taught by these things happening to be careful around white men. Our mothers teach their daughters the same. This may be perceived as racist, and no I would not be offended if someone points out that it is racist to believe such, as they would not necessarily be wrong. I do think they should address it as such, but I have no need to feel as though I am exempt from such things, or that there is something " bad" or " wrong" with me for this being a part of me when I see it as everyone having some degree of this, it is just a matter of what you are willing to do about it.

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:

For example, They found that unconscious racism in healthcare was resulting in Healthcare workers thinking that black people were in less pain than white people with the same conditions resulting in them providing them with less pain medicine. Once we become aware of this, we can make the necessary changes to change that perception. This is not something that can't be changed, of course it can be changed, it just takes people becoming aware that it is happening in the first place and to actively recognize they are doing it. Once people are actively aware of this, they start to treat the patients equally.

You know what's cool about this? All you need to do is put the data in front of someone, point out the mistake they're making, and having a rational discussion about the implications and how they should change their behavior. The accusation of racism is completely absent and the dialog is better because of it.

Actually racism was discussed frequently when we have group discussion on this and during the implementation of the teaching process. There was no reason to omit it. The dialog was openly discussing this racial bias in medicine as well as others including but not limited to what procedures are done, room cleaning, nurse call response times and much more. Racism was discussed quite thoroughly and openly in the hospital and teaching setting

Dreiko:
Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy.

Declaring that someone who does racist things isn't a true racist is a logical fallacy.

Assuming that logical fallacies determine the truthfulness of statements, rather than merely their argumentative strength, is also a logical fallacy.

Lil devils x:
When you review the definition of racism above, it is not just about thinking necessarily negative things about another race, it is also believing ( ignorantly so) that "races possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." so that by thinking that Black people feel less pain, and not even realizing you are doing it, you are experiencing unconscious racism. It is no different than thinking that one race is more trustworthy than another or that one race makes better Physicians than another. It is all nonsense, and yes racist.

I don't think your definition is bad.

But the problem is that 90% of all racism accusations i have ever read or heard would be unfounded using said definition.

There is this whole thing about discrimination. Do you have to believe that your race is somewhat superior to make it easier for people more like yourself ? Do you need to believe in racial superiority to seek out company of people who look like you or speak like you ? No. But all those things are still regarded as pretty racist.

Then there is the fact that science does not actually recognize races in humans. And people are not really consistent in its use either. Yes, there is the Black, White, Asian stuff, but even that is used very differently. Around half of American Blacks would never be considered Black in Europe because the US had this stupid One-drop-rule and Europe didn't. Similar things are true for what in America is nowadays called "brown" which is often elsewhere called "white". But there are not only the big ones. Racism as word is freely embraced when talking about small ethnicies like Roma or the Iris or the Turks or the Crimea Tatars. It is also very much used for Israelis and Palestinensians who couldn't be much closer regarding genetic makeup. It is used for Northern Irish Protestants vs. Northern Irish Catholics. I have even seen it applied to the race of "country dwellers" vs. "urbanists". And no, that was by far not the most stupid way of distributing people into races to make a case for racism, that one goes to some surprisingly big group in Berlin who discribute skin colour names based on some inner mindset/personality profile.

Which gets me to the next point. The myriad of definitions of "racism" floating around. There is the neverending debate of this stupid "punching up" idea and that only people in a more powerful position can be racist. As if it was ever easy to decide which one has how much power and would totally not start discussions about who has it worse and who earned whatever he/she has every single time it is used. And let's not forget that people joining any extremist groups tend to be unhappy with their situation and would with that definition always conclude that they can't be racist because they have it bad.

Shadowstar38:

trunkage:
As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

I'd think if someone was actually guilty of some wrongdoing, one could illustrate that without resorting to buzzwords that have arguably lost all meaning.

Yeah, I'm not sure whether you're now just trolling. But sure, buzz words. Lets get rid of them. Id love that too. How about we start with

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

I know, because I paraphrased these buzz words right back at in my comment. Sure, I used prejudged instead of value judgment but I was deliberately copying you. I was drawing a connection between how you dislike when people using racist in a conversation and how you were acting. Because that Venn Diagram is pretty close to a circle.

If you want someone not to behave a certain way, don't act like them. which brings me to:

Lil devils x:
snip

Saelune:
double snip

Shadowstar's point was people who use the word racist are usually being as much of a asshat as the racists. I'd expand it to: Some are doing it unintentionally. Some are being dogmatic. Some are being proactive. Some are trolling. So he's somewhat correct.

So I teach kids right? You know what is easy? Telling them when they've done something wrong. But it teaches them little. BEcuase you arent talking about how to make things better. But talking about it like this is way harder. And they are going to make mistake or push boundaries. Once you critice character, they'll start not listening to you. Shadowstar is trying to ask for a different, more nuanced way to talk to each other.

Lil devils x:
The word " racist" however, is not a " slur" it has a specific definition, it is a descriptive term hat serves a purpose. equating it to name calling takes away it meaning and makes it no different than calling someone a "buttface" and it is not, nor should it ever be considered to be "the same as", as that reduces the meaning and purpose. We do not have other well known terms that mean exactly what it does, thus it is the appropriate word to be used. Removing it's usage and meaning only goes to serve the purpose of promoting racism by attempting to remove terms to identify racism from the conversation. Making it so it is not " appropriate" to call racism out when you see it only serves to normalize racism.

Shit, I am not saying it is not appropriate in general, I am saying that it is not appropriate if you truly want to change the mind of the person saying racist things. As in my initial example, it is not wrong to call the self-harming person unreliable or a liar (they did break a promise), but what good does it do if I want to make them think differently? By not calling them a liar I retain the trust needed to affect change . That's why we should not just call people by slur-like names when they say something we don't like.

I mean, "SJW" and "Communist" also have specific definitions and I think we both agree that when someone calls us that we aren't exactly prone to paying them much further attention. And just like Communist, Racist is a word with a specific definition that also gets dragged out a lot to fit when we just want to tell someone they are a poopoo head without having to engage with their argument.

Lil devils x:
People should call racism out when they see it, as that is the primary way to show that it is not acceptable or normal in society. It is much easier to callit what it is than attempt to think of many other words to say what you can mean with one simple word that is already well recognized. Powder puffing it and attempting to make it sound prettier does not help the purpose of reducing it, it only makes it more acceptable for people to do. When you actually listen to former racists, they do not attempt to pretend that it was not racism, they use the word as well.

So, how's calling out racism working out in the US or Europe right now? If anything, repeatedly calling people racists or fascists is a great way to get them to double down on their position and close ranks. As I said, when you call someone a racist you are not giving them a valuable life lesson or wake-up call, you are (in their eyes, at least) just attacking their person. So why should they listen? They know (whether true or not) that they are not racists, so why should they listen to you when you just insult them?

Sadly, there are no easy ways to deal with racism, sexism, classism or other forms of discrimination and hate speech. Just calling it out does nothing at best or galvanizes those that believe it at worst. As I alluded to back in Saelune's civility topic, the struggle that those of us who want equality face is always that we have to work harder to prove our point. We need to show patience, explain our position and accept insults aimed at our race, sex, class, religion or ethnicity while not giving any of it in return, because those that oppose us feed off hate and discomfort. The more hate they get, the more validated they feel.

Satinavian:

Lil devils x:
When you review the definition of racism above, it is not just about thinking necessarily negative things about another race, it is also believing ( ignorantly so) that "races possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." so that by thinking that Black people feel less pain, and not even realizing you are doing it, you are experiencing unconscious racism. It is no different than thinking that one race is more trustworthy than another or that one race makes better Physicians than another. It is all nonsense, and yes racist.

I don't think your definition is bad.

But the problem is that 90% of all racism accusations i have ever read or heard would be unfounded using said definition.

There is this whole thing about discrimination. Do you have to believe that your race is somewhat superior to make it easier for people more like yourself ? Do you need to believe in racial superiority to seek out company of people who look like you or speak like you ? No. But all those things are still regarded as pretty racist.

Then there is the fact that science does not actually recognize races in humans. And people are not really consistent in its use either. Yes, there is the Black, White, Asian stuff, but even that is used very differently. Around half of American Blacks would never be considered Black in Europe because the US had this stupid One-drop-rule and Europe didn't. Similar things are true for what in America is nowadays called "brown" which is often elsewhere called "white". But there are not only the big ones. Racism as word is freely embraced when talking about small ethnicies like Roma or the Iris or the Turks or the Crimea Tatars. It is also very much used for Israelis and Palestinensians who couldn't be much closer regarding genetic makeup. It is used for Northern Irish Protestants vs. Northern Irish Catholics. I have even seen it applied to the race of "city dwellers" vs. "urbanists". And no, that was by far not the most stupid way of distributing people into races to make a case for racism, that one goes to some surprisingly big group in Berlin who discribute skin colour names based on some inner mindset/personality profile.

Which gets me to the next point. The myriad of definitions of "racism" floating around. There is the neverending debate of this stupid "punching up" idea and that only people in a more powerful position can be racist. As if it was ever easy to decide which one has how much power and would totally not start discussions about who has it worse and who earned whatever he/she has every single time it is used. And let's not forget that people joining any extremist groups tend to be unhappy with their situation and would with that definition always conclude that they can't be racist because they have it bad.

The issue with focusing on those who are " punching up" is it is seen as a " response" to the extreme racism that has been repeatedly and continually carried out against them. It is viewed as " finally fighting back" against those who have wronged them for a very long time. It is seen as attempting to change the subject instead of addressing the primary problem. Many view it as if you address the primary racism, the chain reaction that would be set off from that racism will not exist, thus solving the " punching up" in the end as well. Addressing the primary problem will result in creating less reasons for the others to " fight back" in the first place.

From your description though it seems more of " tribalism" than neccessarily racism, based on culture, class and lifestyle rather than necessarily on race. Though I see that as different, it is still just as bad and ignorant as racism.

trunkage:

Shadowstar38:

trunkage:
As I said, it never comes down to whether the accused is actually racist.

What you've stated is an emotionally ingrained reponse to the word racist. You've already pre-judged their actions and are shaming them for using the word racist.

Ie. You're acting exactly like the person saying racist.

I can say that both sides are as terrible as each other on this. I would say that the person saying racist said it first, and this worse, but half the time they are just responding to something equally heinous. Like African American are better off because of slavery

I'd think if someone was actually guilty of some wrongdoing, one could illustrate that without resorting to buzzwords that have arguably lost all meaning.

Yeah, I'm not sure whether you're now just trolling. But sure, buzz words. Lets get rid of them. Id love that too. How about we start with

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

I know, because I paraphrased these buzz words right back at in my comment. Sure, I used prejudged instead of value judgment but I was deliberately copying you. I was drawing a connection between how you dislike when people using racist in a conversation and how you were acting. Because that Venn Diagram is pretty close to a circle.

If you want someone not to behave a certain way, don't act like them. which brings me to:

Lil devils x:
snip

Saelune:
double snip

Shadowstar's point was people who use the word racist are usually being as much of a asshat as the racists. I'd expand it to: Some are doing it unintentionally. Some are being dogmatic. Some are being proactive. Some are trolling. So he's somewhat correct.

So I teach kids right? You know what is easy? Telling them when they've done something wrong. But it teaches them little. BEcuase you arent talking about how to make things better. But talking about it like this is way harder. And they are going to make mistake or push boundaries. Once you critice character, they'll start not listening to you. Shadowstar is trying to ask for a different, more nuanced way to talk to each other.

If you notice, I do not call people " racists" I point out why something is or is not racist. Showing why something is racist is far more productive than just calling it what it is and not elaborating. The same with Children, if you show them why something is wrong, and show them other options it helps them improve rather than telling them they are " bad". The thing is, we are not teaching children here, so utilizing the same approach on adults usually comes across as condescending. Showing why something is harmful should be expected, but they do not expect you to hold their hand to show them how to always do better. That is more likely to piss them off than to help them when dealing with adults.

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