Racist

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT
 

Gethsemani:

Lil devils x:
The word " racist" however, is not a " slur" it has a specific definition, it is a descriptive term hat serves a purpose. equating it to name calling takes away it meaning and makes it no different than calling someone a "buttface" and it is not, nor should it ever be considered to be "the same as", as that reduces the meaning and purpose. We do not have other well known terms that mean exactly what it does, thus it is the appropriate word to be used. Removing it's usage and meaning only goes to serve the purpose of promoting racism by attempting to remove terms to identify racism from the conversation. Making it so it is not " appropriate" to call racism out when you see it only serves to normalize racism.

Shit, I am not saying it is not appropriate in general, I am saying that it is not appropriate if you truly want to change the mind of the person saying racist things. As in my initial example, it is not wrong to call the self-harming person unreliable or a liar (they did break a promise), but what good does it do if I want to make them think differently? By not calling them a liar I retain the trust needed to affect change . That's why we should not just call people by slur-like names when they say something we don't like.

I mean, "SJW" and "Communist" also have specific definitions and I think we both agree that when someone calls us that we aren't exactly prone to paying them much further attention. And just like Communist, Racist is a word with a specific definition that also gets dragged out a lot to fit when we just want to tell someone they are a poopoo head without having to engage with their argument.

Lil devils x:
People should call racism out when they see it, as that is the primary way to show that it is not acceptable or normal in society. It is much easier to callit what it is than attempt to think of many other words to say what you can mean with one simple word that is already well recognized. Powder puffing it and attempting to make it sound prettier does not help the purpose of reducing it, it only makes it more acceptable for people to do. When you actually listen to former racists, they do not attempt to pretend that it was not racism, they use the word as well.

So, how's calling out racism working out in the US or Europe right now? If anything, repeatedly calling people racists or fascists is a great way to get them to double down on their position and close ranks. As I said, when you call someone a racist you are not giving them a valuable life lesson or wake-up call, you are (in their eyes, at least) just attacking their person. So why should they listen? They know (whether true or not) that they are not racists, so why should they listen to you when you just insult them?

Sadly, there are no easy ways to deal with racism, sexism, classism or other forms of discrimination and hate speech. Just calling it out does nothing at best or galvanizes those that believe it at worst. As I alluded to back in Saelune's civility topic, the struggle that those of us who want equality face is always that we have to work harder to prove our point. We need to show patience, explain our position and accept insults aimed at our race, sex, class, religion or ethnicity while not giving any of it in return, because those that oppose us feed off hate and discomfort. The more hate they get, the more validated they feel.

It has come a long way though hasn't it? Calling out racists is what they had to do to end slavery, to be able to vote, to earn equal pay and to end housing discrimination. Yes, they called racists racists the whole way to make these things happen. It has done more than many may realize. They didn't get anything accomplished by making it sound prettier, that is for certain.

For some, being called a racist was the first step to addressing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgGrxeidpo
Former Racist Reveals Why Some White People Fear African Americans

When you listen to those who have a change of heart, they will tell you that IS the first step. This guy for certain is not trying to " powder puff it" and tells others that is the first step.

We hear this over and over again from those who have had this changed their minds. It would do good to listen if we want to have more change their minds.

trunkage:
Yeah, I'm not sure whether you're now just trolling. But sure, buzz words. Lets get rid of them. Id love that too. How about we start with

Shadowstar38:
If someone's just going to whip out a term like "racist" in a discussion, it usually means they've already made a value judgement on someone's action and are trying to spread public shame. If something's that emotionally ingrained, it's likely they'll make the definition fit no matter how thoroughly you deconstruct the premise.

I know, because I paraphrased these buzz words right back at in my comment. Sure, I used prejudged instead of value judgment but I was deliberately copying you. I was drawing a connection between how you dislike when people using racist in a conversation and how you were acting. Because that Venn Diagram is pretty close to a circle.

I'll diverge from generalization for a moment.

Category 1: White supremacy. Actual Nazis. Black Nationalists. ect

If you called this racist, I wouldn't complain. Cut and dry. Moving on.

Category 2: People who support Boarder Security. ect.

There are racists who don't want Mexicans in their country. There are non-racists who support this for any number of logical reasons. We should try to not conflate the 2. Such a mistake is more understandable for the accuser. But if you cry racist from the onset, it obfuscates the issue. You've assumed malice.

Category 3: Borderline insanity. Example "Criticism of Islam is racist"

Well that's just objectively false. You could have avoided confusion by thinking before you spoke. Admittedly, this would be the position of someone who's extreme and reactionary. 70-80% of liberals would mock such statements.

When I say racism is being misused, I'm talking about people who attempt to state as a fact that something is racist as if it were category 1 when in actuality its most likely a 2 or 3.

evilthecat:

Dreiko:
Calling someone a racist is an ad-hominem so it's a logical fallacy.

Declaring that someone who does racist things isn't a true racist is a logical fallacy.

Assuming that logical fallacies determine the truthfulness of statements, rather than merely their argumentative strength, is also a logical fallacy.

Attributing to malice what can just as much be attributed to ignorance or stupidity is not helpful. I am much more likely to think of someone who does something racist as them being dumb than actually being someone who literally thinks other people are inferior to them, because I think that takes a lot of factors and conditioning and people don't just reach that place as a normal matter of existing in society.

For every actual racist you have dozens of idiots who don't really understand the consequences of their actions and just behave in a halfbaked, thoughtless manner. It's just that when you are in that place, racist behavior is an easy attention-getting transgressive type of thing to fall back to.

Some things you have to look deeper into and not analyze too straightforwardly. The streaker who flashes his ass at passing cars isn't actually propositioning them for sex 99% of the time. He's just being a jackass.

trunkage:
So we have a few people on here who might trot out this term a bit too often.

There are good reasons to trot out this term. We have a few racists around here and the general discourse in the west surrounding migration, terrorism and some other issues is obviously racist.

Gethsemani:
I've been thinking about this problem a lot, in the context of self-harm behavior. A common practice among psychiatric staff inexperienced at treating self-harm behavior is to have the patient promise not to self-harm (in itself not a bad practice, mind you). The natural reaction when the patient self-harms is then to call the patient a liar, or unreliable or a letdown or something similar. Do any of you believe that this makes the patient go "Oh, they are right, I broke a promise so that makes me an unreliable liar. I should work harder not to break my promises"? Or does it make the patient feel rejected and called out?

The context is not the same in these discussions, but in terms of fostering discussion and trust, leading with an accusation or slur is rarely a good way to go. It doesn't matter if the slur used is racist, fascist, misogynist, snowflake, SJW, NPC, communist, asshole or psychopath, because whoever is on the receiving end will not stop to think "Huh, I never realized I was a SJW communist racist misogynist". No, they'll see the attack on their character and will react to the attack by getting defensive.

Which is why, I believe, a lot of people tend to dogpile whoever used an insult first, rather then the person who might have been correctly labelled by the insult. Because the person getting insulted might express opinions I abhor, but the insulting person is shutting down the discussion. And that discussion is what we need to understand each other and make those with terrible opinions change their mind.

I tend to agree with this but when it comes to communication both sides have some responsibility here. It seems fair to put some responsibility on people not to freak out when they are called out on the things they say and do.

Is (or should) the intent of calling someone racist to persuade them to change their mind, or to persuade third parties that that person is racist?

Doesn't work on the former (unless they are worried about being racist), can work very well on the latter.

Thaluikhain:
Is (or should) the intent of calling someone racist to persuade them to change their mind, or to persuade third parties that that person is racist?

Doesn't work on the former (unless they are worried about being racist), can work very well on the latter.

What's the purpose?

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:
Is (or should) the intent of calling someone racist to persuade them to change their mind, or to persuade third parties that that person is racist?

Doesn't work on the former (unless they are worried about being racist), can work very well on the latter.

What's the purpose?

The purpose is to draw attention to the racist behavior in the hopes that they see it for what it is and make an effort to change it. The same reason why this guy is calling out racist behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgGrxeidpo

It is by drawing attention to it, that hopefully the prevalence in society will change by both the person who is doing it and by how it is viewed by society as a whole. The purpose is to ultimately reduce the behavior.

Lil devils x:

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:
Is (or should) the intent of calling someone racist to persuade them to change their mind, or to persuade third parties that that person is racist?

Doesn't work on the former (unless they are worried about being racist), can work very well on the latter.

What's the purpose?

The purpose is to draw attention to the racist behavior in the hopes that they see it for what it is and make an effort to change it. The same reason why this guy is calling out racist behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgGrxeidpo

It is by drawing attention to it, that hopefully the prevalence in society will change by both the person who is doing it and by how it is viewed by society as a whole. The purpose is to ultimately reduce the behavior.

If the criticism is valid, that would be cool. If it's not, you form a directionless hate mob.

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:

Shadowstar38:

What's the purpose?

The purpose is to draw attention to the racist behavior in the hopes that they see it for what it is and make an effort to change it. The same reason why this guy is calling out racist behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgGrxeidpo

It is by drawing attention to it, that hopefully the prevalence in society will change by both the person who is doing it and by how it is viewed by society as a whole. The purpose is to ultimately reduce the behavior.

If the criticism is valid, that would be cool. If it's not, you form a directionless hate mob.

In practice though the vast majority of the time, people are calling out actual racist behavior. Focusing on the times it is not is just distracting from the actual purpose.

It is like saying that police should just stop arresting people for murder because sometimes they arrest the wrong people. Simply because sometimes they arrest people who didn't do anything does not mean they should stop arresting people all together, nor does it mean that the purpose of what they are doing has somehow changed. Mistakes are made no matter what it is people do, that has no actual bearing on the initial action in the first place, nor should it. No, it does not suddenly make those who are angry about murder " directionless", they are STILL angry about murder, even if that was the wrong person. It still does not change their purpose.

Lil devils x:
From your description though it seems more of " tribalism" than neccessarily racism, based on culture, class and lifestyle rather than necessarily on race. Though I see that as different, it is still just as bad and ignorant as racism.

Of course it is tribalism at worst nearly all of the time. But tribalism does not have the same negative connotation as racism has. And "tribalist" isn't really in use as a word. You can't hurt someone by calling them a tribalist. You can hurt someone calling him a racist, that one is forever associated with Nazis and some of the worst crimes in history. Calling someone a racist is nearly as effective in triggering an emotional response as calling someone a Nazi is. And that is why racist is the word that gets tossed around even if it really doesn't fit.

Satinavian:

Lil devils x:
From your description though it seems more of " tribalism" than neccessarily racism, based on culture, class and lifestyle rather than necessarily on race. Though I see that as different, it is still just as bad and ignorant as racism.

Of course it is tribalism at worst nearly all of the time. But tribalism does not have the same negative connotation as racism has. And "tribalist" isn't really in use as a word. You can't hurt someone by calling them a tribalist. You can hurt someone calling him a racist, that one is forever associated with Nazis and some of the worst crimes in history. Calling someone a racist is nearly as effective in triggering an emotional response as calling someone a Nazi is. And that is why racist is the word that gets tossed around even if it really doesn't fit.

Instead of calling it " tribalist" due to other meanings of the word tribe, it is more often referred to as "xenophobic". Which also carries similar negative weight as racism does.

Lil devils x:
In practice though the vast majority of the time, people are calling out actual racist behavior. Focising on the times it is not is just distracting from the actual purpose.

If I were a pedantic asshole, I'd ask you to quantify vast majority. But that's kind of beside the point. Any time people cry wolf in regards to claims of racism, it de-legitimizes it. I'm not asking people stop opposing racist behavior, I'm asking that they be smarter about how its done.

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:
In practice though the vast majority of the time, people are calling out actual racist behavior. Focising on the times it is not is just distracting from the actual purpose.

If I were a pedantic asshole, I'd ask you to quantify vast majority. But that's kind of beside the point. Any time people cry wolf in regards to claims of racism, it de-legitimizes it. I'm not asking people stop opposing racist behavior, I'm asking that they be smarter about how its done.

It no more de-legitimizes racism than it delegitimizes robbery when people falsely claim they were robbed or deligitimizes Murder due to police arresting the wrong person. Who does it de- legitimize it to? I see it only de-legitimizes it to those who don't want to acknowledge it in the first place, that people who want to look for reasons to undermine addressing racism would also be the people who promote it's de-legitimization. Those who know it for what it is and call it what it is do not see it being delegitimized by red herrings. Those that wish to undermine their efforts however, will find any excuse to do so regardless of what some random person does here or there.

If it were that easy to de- legitimize something wouldn't you think all the racists out there would be creating more of these misplaced scenarios themselves to promote the delegitimization?

The allegation of racism at this point has become so empty and vemonless that it's usually only trotted out by people incapable of actually addressing a person's argument.

Lil devils x:

It has come a long way though hasn't it? Calling out racists is what they had to do to end slavery, to be able to vote, to earn equal pay and to end housing discrimination. Yes, they called racists racists the whole way to make these things happen. It has done more than many may realize. They didn't get anything accomplished by making it sound prettier, that is for certain.

Are we really going to pretend as if calling the South racists didn't end up with them seceding from the Union and starting a war over their right to own slaves? What ended slavery in the US was not Lincoln telling southerners that they were racists, it was the military and industrial might of the northern states. Similarly, what drove the right to equal pay and ending of housing discrimination was not shouting at white people for being racists, it was sustained and energetic political campaigning to raise awareness of the issues and raising support for ending them.

Sometimes you can't do much more then point out that someone is being a racist (Trump being a point in case, really), but to pretend as if it has some deep and meaningful power of change is preposterous. Political change is not affected by hurling derogatives at people that disagree with you (racist, fascist, SJW, cuck or otherwise), it is affected by raising awareness of the issues you want resolved.

The black equality movement of the 60's and 70's did not get as far as it did by calling everyone a racist (though everyone that opposed them certainly was), they got there by organizing and making their voices heard in wanting change. The two are not the same thing and we should never conflate them.

Pseudonym:

I tend to agree with this but when it comes to communication both sides have some responsibility here. It seems fair to put some responsibility on people not to freak out when they are called out on the things they say and do.

Absolutely. But if I really want to change the other persons mind and they can't help themselves from getting riled up, what do I do? Tell them to be a better person next time and huff off? More pertinently: When someone calls you an SJW/cuck/NPC, do you really stick around to listen to their entire spiel in case they have some point you ought to consider? Or do you blow them off as a douchebag you don't want to waste your time at?

Gethsemani:

Lil devils x:

It has come a long way though hasn't it? Calling out racists is what they had to do to end slavery, to be able to vote, to earn equal pay and to end housing discrimination. Yes, they called racists racists the whole way to make these things happen. It has done more than many may realize. They didn't get anything accomplished by making it sound prettier, that is for certain.

Are we really going to pretend as if calling the South racists didn't end up with them seceding from the Union and starting a war over their right to own slaves? What ended slavery in the US was not Lincoln telling southerners that they were racists, it was the military and industrial might of the northern states. Similarly, what drove the right to equal pay and ending of housing discrimination was not shouting at white people for being racists, it was sustained and energetic political campaigning to raise awareness of the issues and raising support for ending them.

Sometimes you can't do much more then point out that someone is being a racist (Trump being a point in case, really), but to pretend as if it has some deep and meaningful power of change is preposterous. Political change is not affected by hurling derogatives at people that disagree with you (racist, fascist, SJW, cuck or otherwise), it is affected by raising awareness of the issues you want resolved.

The black equality movement of the 60's and 70's did not get as far as it did by calling everyone a racist (though everyone that opposed them certainly was), they got there by organizing and making their voices heard in wanting change. The two are not the same thing and we should never conflate them.

Pseudonym:

I tend to agree with this but when it comes to communication both sides have some responsibility here. It seems fair to put some responsibility on people not to freak out when they are called out on the things they say and do.

Absolutely. But if I really want to change the other persons mind and they can't help themselves from getting riled up, what do I do? Tell them to be a better person next time and huff off? More pertinently: When someone calls you an SJW/cuck/NPC, do you really stick around to listen to their entire spiel in case they have some point you ought to consider? Or do you blow them off as a douchebag you don't want to waste your time at?

It wasn't calling them racists that made them start a war, it was preventing them from using their racism to make money that made them start a war. It is not just about calling out racism, it is about how that impacts the society as a whole. The negative weight that " racism" itself carries due to how society views it is what gives it power to reduce it. Making racism trendy again is how they increase it, by keeping the negative weight to it is the only real counter to that that exists in society. Martin Luther King openly called out racism, and yes, I do believe that his impact outlived him. Lumping racist and cuck as being equivalent is also a problem, as they should not be. It is again attempting to remove the meaning and weight from the word, and it is that meaning and weight that has given it the power to help prevent racism from being popular mainstream. It is not the same as " name calling" nor should it ever be treated as such. The intention and purpose behind calling someone a SJW or a cuck is not the same as someone calling someone a racist, nor should they ever be treated as " doing the same thing" as they are not even in the same realm. Racist is not a slur, instead it is pointing out that one has ignorant ideas about race, and that should be clarified.

The civil rights movement did not in any way tip toe around the word racist, and in reading the literature, speeches and media from the period, you will plainly see the words racist and racism were used frequently, boldly and directly. They viewed it as " it walks like a duck, it talks like a duck it's a duck" and called it for what it was. What they achieved during the civil rights movement is WHY the word racist carries the negative weight it does today. If they had avoided the term that would not be the case in this day. You don't just simply call out racist or racism however, you explain how and why it is harmful of course. But that goes with anything toxic in society, you have to increase education on the topic or people will remain ignorant to the problem. We should not backpedal now and try to make it sound nicer to appease modern racists who may be sensitive to the term, we would be moving backwards rather than forwards if that were to happen. We need to be able to discuss this openly and show it for what it is so we can address it and not just in whispers in back rooms where we might not be overheard.

I am not saying it is necessarily helpful to go around yelling 'racist!" at people, I do not see the benefit in yelling anything at people really, even if you yell " beautiful!" at someone it can be quite frightening. I am stating that to state "that statement was racist" or " that statement promotes racism" and explain why IS beneficial to help people gain perspective. Now in the case of people like Trump, stating Trump is racist and why may also promote perspective among those who do not understand why people think he is racist. Of course the key is explaining why they are racist, however, it is the term "racist" that opens the door to that conversation as well.

EDIT: In addition, we still have numerous civil rights leaders alive today, and they too do not hesitate to call out racists as being racists when it applies, nor should they. They organized to have their voices heard to combat racism, and that should never be left out of the conversation.

For example, Civil Rights Leader John Lewis has openly stated Trump is a racist. It isn't like our civil rights leaders ever stopped calling a duck a duck when it applies. There is power in words, and racist is one of those words that carries the weight to make people think. Why do you think racists hate the word so much to begin with? They would much rather diminish the word to that of a slur to remove it's meaning thus why we need to make sure that does not happen.

It is not "socially acceptable" to be a racist, thus they wish to remove the meaning of the word to make it socially acceptable again. They are doing the same with " white nationalist" and "nationalist" as well. How else are they to expand their agenda?

Lil devils x:
I see it only de-legitimizes it to those who don't want to acknowledge it in the first place, that people who want to look for reasons to undermine addressing racism would also be the people who promote it's de-legitimization.

I'm pretty sure you only think this because you've made social issues a big part of your life and you've been combing over the details to an absurd degree. Outside observers see the liberal propaganda machines blowing things out of proportion and Antifa members calling Jews anti-semites. Further false flags feeds the confirmation bias. People should ideally be working to get rid of those biases, but facts are they're already there and you need to work around them.

Reduce instances of people crying wolf, increase quality of life for everyone involved.

You're speaking from an idealistic attitude that doesn't seem to take into account how other people's minds work. Work around what is, not what should be.

Thaluikhain:
Is (or should) the intent of calling someone racist to persuade them to change their mind, or to persuade third parties that that person is racist?

Doesn't work on the former (unless they are worried about being racist), can work very well on the latter.

Reading some other posts, and yeah this.

Cause racists in my experience don't fucking care about being decent people. And I don't fucking care to parent them anymore. I am just tired of having to act like they deserve to have their terrible views catered to, considered, or treated as something worth hearing out. Nazis had their chance, and lost. Nazis stopped having a place to speak when they murdered over 16 million people out of pure bigotry. The Confederates stopped having a place to speak when they rebelled 100% for the sake of slavery.

And if Republicans want to keep their place to speak, THEY NEED TO CUT OUT THE NAZIS AND CONFEDERATES! They need to put their foot down and say 'We do not accept racism or bigotry in our party'. But they don't, because their party outright supports and runs on bigotry.

I don't care about if I hurt their feelings, cause they don't care about letting children die in literal internment camps cause they are not white and have Mexican names. They don't care about women being raped, they don't care about fair exercise of 'freedom of religion' nor fair freedom of speech.

I am not wrong for calling out racists, racists are wrong for being racists.

The Lunatic:
The allegation of racism at this point has become so empty and vemonless that it's usually only trotted out by people incapable of actually addressing a person's argument.

Stop defending literal Nazis.

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:
I see it only de-legitimizes it to those who don't want to acknowledge it in the first place, that people who want to look for reasons to undermine addressing racism would also be the people who promote it's de-legitimization.

I'm pretty sure you only think this because you've made social issues a big part of your life and you've been combing over the details to an absurd degree. Outside observers see the liberal propaganda machines blowing things out of proportion and Antifa members calling Jews anti-semites. Further false flags feeds the confirmation bias. People should ideally be working to get rid of those biases, but facts are they're already there and you need to work around them.

Reduce instances of people crying wolf, increase quality of life for everyone involved.

You're speaking from an idealistic attitude that doesn't seem to take into account how other people's minds work. Work around what is, not what should be.

Reduce people from doing what how? That is a pretty idealistic view there as well considering people do not have control over what other people do and say. There is no way to reduce what other people actually say, only hopes to increase education in society in general to make a difference. In the end no one controls whether or not anyone cries wolf about racism, robbery , murder or anything else for that matter. One can only respond after the fact and hopefully help influence society as a whole. No one else has control over whether joe smoe cries wolf any more than you do. What the general population can and cannot do is decide whether or not they give them to attention or spotlight they are seeking from doing so or choose to ignore it and treat it as relevant as it should be treated. The more attention and focus you give to those who cry wolf the more people who will do so for attention. The answer appears to be ignore them if you want to reduce it rather than take focus from the actual issues to give it to those who only serve to distract from them.

Who benefits from giving those crying wolf attention? Oh yea the racists themselves. Go figure how this works right? Maybe people should be mindful enough to keep that in mind when they decide to give them the attention they seek.

Lil devils x:

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:
I see it only de-legitimizes it to those who don't want to acknowledge it in the first place, that people who want to look for reasons to undermine addressing racism would also be the people who promote it's de-legitimization.

I'm pretty sure you only think this because you've made social issues a big part of your life and you've been combing over the details to an absurd degree. Outside observers see the liberal propaganda machines blowing things out of proportion and Antifa members calling Jews anti-semites. Further false flags feeds the confirmation bias. People should ideally be working to get rid of those biases, but facts are they're already there and you need to work around them.

Reduce instances of people crying wolf, increase quality of life for everyone involved.

You're speaking from an idealistic attitude that doesn't seem to take into account how other people's minds work. Work around what is, not what should be.

Reduce people from doing what how? That is a pretty idealistic view there as well considering people do not have control over what other people do and say. There is no way to reduce what other people actually say, only hopes to increase education in society in general to make a difference. In the end no one controls whether or not anyone cries wolf about racism, robbery , murder or anything else for that matter. One can only respond after the fact and hopefully help influence society as a whole. No one else has control over whether joe smoe cries wolf any more than you do. What the general population can and cannot do is decide whether or not they give them to attention or spotlight they are seeking from doing so or choose to ignore it and treat it as relevant as it should be treated. The more attention and focus you give to those who cry wolf the more people who will do so for attention. The answer appears to be ignore them if you want to reduce it rather than take focus from the actual issues to give it to those who only serve to distract from them.

Who benefits from giving those crying wolf attention? Oh yea the racists themselves. Go figure how this works right? Maybe people should be mindful enough to keep that in mind when they decide to give them the attention they seek.

The one crying wolf would be you in the hypothetical scenario

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:

Shadowstar38:

I'm pretty sure you only think this because you've made social issues a big part of your life and you've been combing over the details to an absurd degree. Outside observers see the liberal propaganda machines blowing things out of proportion and Antifa members calling Jews anti-semites. Further false flags feeds the confirmation bias. People should ideally be working to get rid of those biases, but facts are they're already there and you need to work around them.

Reduce instances of people crying wolf, increase quality of life for everyone involved.

You're speaking from an idealistic attitude that doesn't seem to take into account how other people's minds work. Work around what is, not what should be.

Reduce people from doing what how? That is a pretty idealistic view there as well considering people do not have control over what other people do and say. There is no way to reduce what other people actually say, only hopes to increase education in society in general to make a difference. In the end no one controls whether or not anyone cries wolf about racism, robbery , murder or anything else for that matter. One can only respond after the fact and hopefully help influence society as a whole. No one else has control over whether joe smoe cries wolf any more than you do. What the general population can and cannot do is decide whether or not they give them to attention or spotlight they are seeking from doing so or choose to ignore it and treat it as relevant as it should be treated. The more attention and focus you give to those who cry wolf the more people who will do so for attention. The answer appears to be ignore them if you want to reduce it rather than take focus from the actual issues to give it to those who only serve to distract from them.

Who benefits from giving those crying wolf attention? Oh yea the racists themselves. Go figure how this works right? Maybe people should be mindful enough to keep that in mind when they decide to give them the attention they seek.

The one crying wolf would be you in the hypothetical scenario

Crying wolf is only bad when there isn't actually a wolf. Crying wolf when a wolf is actually there is perfectly valid.

Saelune:
Crying wolf is only bad when there isn't actually a wolf. Crying wolf when a wolf is actually there is perfectly valid.

I already know your opinion is invalid by your own admission. This is directed more towards people who debate honestly

The Lunatic:
The allegation of racism at this point has become so empty and vemonless that it's usually only trotted out by people incapable of actually addressing a person's argument.

I also say this of anyone is accussed of beinf racist. They're too scared to find out if it's true so they just blame everyone else.

As the new adage goes: people are more scared of being called racist than doing any thinking about whether they are racist

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Crying wolf is only bad when there isn't actually a wolf. Crying wolf when a wolf is actually there is perfectly valid.

I already know your opinion is invalid by your own admission. This is directed more towards people who debate honestly

Just because you don't like what I say, doesn't mean I am wrong.

Just trying to understand here, is this thread arguing the fact that all accusations of racism are accurate, and that those who are accused of being racist should just shut up and accept it?

Because that seems a bit silly, because there are multiple instances of the racism card being thrown around when the subject of the accusation is not racist. Cultural appropriation is a prime example of this, how a white person is not allowed to have dreadlocks because that is somehow racist.

So I reject the thread's premise. People are accused of racism in an unfounded manner VERY frequently, especially, in the United States. They are not accused because it is something they are, they are accused because the stigma of being a racist is actually quite damaging in a social setting - especially to those who view racism as a bad thing.

A prime example was my encounter in New York when I was visiting a pharmacy/supermarket combo. There was a loud commotion "Run it again! RUN IT AGAIN!" coming from the counters. Poked my head around the end of the aisle to see a woman of African ethnicity completely losing the plot. Apparently, she could not purchase her groceries due to not having enough credit. She decided it was the cashier's fault, and the cashier made her card not have enough money why? Because the cashier was a "racist". The cashier was white, obviously.

Obviously the cashier had nothing to do with the woman's card being declined... but why would she think that calling the cashier racist would be a harmful thing? Most likely because it is something one is stigmatised with and the accusation always draws the discussion away from the true crux of the issue. That this customer did not have enough money to pay for their purchases.

Abomination:

Obviously the cashier had nothing to do with the woman's card being declined... but why would she think that calling the cashier racist would be a harmful thing? Most likely because it is something one is stigmatised with and the accusation always draws the discussion away from the true crux of the issue. That this customer did not have enough money to pay for their purchases.

I had a similar experience first-hand. It wasn't outright stated, but I had a Greek customer come into the library one day to do printing - as it turned out, I not only had to renew his card, but I also had to put money on his card as well. Throughout the entire process he was making off-hand comments, such as "I've been in this country for forty years." Basically, a whole lot of insinuations that I was deliberately being obstinate because of his ethnicity, whereas all I could do was smile, state that it was library policy (shock of all shocks, you need to pay for printing) and take it on the chin.

None of this is to say that actual racism doesn't exist, but I've noticed in recent times (in regards to the US), that terms like "racist" and "Nazi" have been used so often that they've lost their meaning. Which is bad, because among other things, it trivializes the effects of actual racism, and the dangers of actual Nazism.

Shadowstar38:

Lil devils x:

Shadowstar38:

I'm pretty sure you only think this because you've made social issues a big part of your life and you've been combing over the details to an absurd degree. Outside observers see the liberal propaganda machines blowing things out of proportion and Antifa members calling Jews anti-semites. Further false flags feeds the confirmation bias. People should ideally be working to get rid of those biases, but facts are they're already there and you need to work around them.

Reduce instances of people crying wolf, increase quality of life for everyone involved.

You're speaking from an idealistic attitude that doesn't seem to take into account how other people's minds work. Work around what is, not what should be.

Reduce people from doing what how? That is a pretty idealistic view there as well considering people do not have control over what other people do and say. There is no way to reduce what other people actually say, only hopes to increase education in society in general to make a difference. In the end no one controls whether or not anyone cries wolf about racism, robbery , murder or anything else for that matter. One can only respond after the fact and hopefully help influence society as a whole. No one else has control over whether joe smoe cries wolf any more than you do. What the general population can and cannot do is decide whether or not they give them to attention or spotlight they are seeking from doing so or choose to ignore it and treat it as relevant as it should be treated. The more attention and focus you give to those who cry wolf the more people who will do so for attention. The answer appears to be ignore them if you want to reduce it rather than take focus from the actual issues to give it to those who only serve to distract from them.

Who benefits from giving those crying wolf attention? Oh yea the racists themselves. Go figure how this works right? Maybe people should be mindful enough to keep that in mind when they decide to give them the attention they seek.

The one crying wolf would be you in the hypothetical scenario

Although I cannot fathom a circumstance in which I would find it rational to cry wolf, if I had then yes people should ignore it rather than give it more attention than it deserves. You pay it no more mind than some guy claiming he caught a giant fish or Trump claiming he was charitable for the sake of being charitable. If it isn't true, why encourage the behavior by giving it more attention?

Abomination:
Just trying to understand here, is this thread arguing the fact that all accusations of racism are accurate, and that those who are accused of being racist should just shut up and accept it?

Because that seems a bit silly, because there are multiple instances of the racism card being thrown around when the subject of the accusation is not racist. Cultural appropriation is a prime example of this, how a white person is not allowed to have dreadlocks because that is somehow racist.

So I reject the thread's premise. People are accused of racism in an unfounded manner VERY frequently, especially, in the United States. They are not accused because it is something they are, they are accused because the stigma of being a racist is actually quite damaging in a social setting - especially to those who view racism as a bad thing.

A prime example was my encounter in New York when I was visiting a pharmacy/supermarket combo. There was a loud commotion "Run it again! RUN IT AGAIN!" coming from the counters. Poked my head around the end of the aisle to see a woman of African ethnicity completely losing the plot. Apparently, she could not purchase her groceries due to not having enough credit. She decided it was the cashier's fault, and the cashier made her card not have enough money why? Because the cashier was a "racist". The cashier was white, obviously.

Obviously the cashier had nothing to do with the woman's card being declined... but why would she think that calling the cashier racist would be a harmful thing? Most likely because it is something one is stigmatised with and the accusation always draws the discussion away from the true crux of the issue. That this customer did not have enough money to pay for their purchases.

It appears you are confused. 1) I have yet seen anyone argue that all accusations of racism are accurate. 2) If someone is crying wolf, then why pay the person crying wolf any mind? You tell them to quit being absurd and go on about your business. By giving them more attention you are rewarding them and encouraging the behavior just as you encourage others to lie by rewarding them for claiming they caught a giant fish or some other nonsense people lie about. By focusing your time elsewhere you are not encouraging or rewarding that behavior.

The entire idea that the person crying wolf should gain more attention ( by choosing to discuss that instead of the actual problem) than those who are actually being racist, only serves to encourage more people to cry wolf rather than actually reduce actual racism. It is counterproductive to discuss it much at all really as by doing so, you are giving them the attention they seek. Some actually seek negative attention, so you are basically feeding the trolls at that point.

Lil devils x:
It appears you are confused. 1) I have yet seen anyone argue that all accusations of racism are accurate. 2) If someone is crying wolf, then why pay the person crying wolf any mind? You tell them to quit being absurd and go on about your business. By giving them more attention you are rewarding them and encouraging the behavior just as you encourage others to lie by rewarding them for claiming they caught a giant fish or some other nonsense people lie about. By focusing your time elsewhere you are not encouraging or rewarding that behavior.

The entire idea that the person crying wolf should gain more attention ( by choosing to discuss that instead of the actual problem) than those who are actually being racist, only serves to encourage more people to cry wolf rather than actually reduce actual racism. It is counterproductive to discuss it much at all really as by doing so, you are giving them the attention they seek. Some actually seek negative attention, so you are basically feeding the trolls at that point.

Unfortunately, it is not so easy to just allow an accusation of racism to go unchallenged. The impact of social media and the public mindset of guilty until proven innocent costs people their jobs.

You are suggesting people allow others to slander them because otherwise they are "feeding the trolls" and perpetuating the very act of slander? That is absurd. It is not the slandered's responsibility to not defend themselves just so that slander is less appea-- no wait that's completely stupid on multiple levels. If it isn't defended against then it will just be done MORE because it becomes effective.

So if we can all agree there are two types of calling someone a racist, a genuine one and a cry wolf one. I mean, the genuine one can cover that the person honestly believes the individual is being deliberately racist, but they can still be wrong... either way you're saying to NEVER defend yourself when called a racist? Either it isn't true and you should ignore them or it is true and you should shut up?

Dreiko:
Attributing to malice what can just as much be attributed to ignorance or stupidity is not helpful.

At this point, ignorance or stupidity is a choice. It may be a passive choice (to simply ignore the problem) but it is still a choice, and the idea that a person should be allowed to get away with anything just by pretending to be ignorant about it doesn't cut it in the age of the internet.

POC do not have a responsibility to wait for someone else to decide it's time to finally grow out of ignorance and stupidity.

trunkage:
I also say this of anyone is accussed of beinf racist. They're too scared to find out if it's true so they just blame everyone else.

As the new adage goes: people are more scared of being called racist than doing any thinking about whether they are racist

I can pretty safely say I have no care if the current absurd definition of racism applies to me or not. It has nothing to do with actual racism.

Attempting to appease such a definition would be fruitless and of zero benefit to anyone.

Abomination:
Just trying to understand here, is this thread arguing the fact that all accusations of racism are accurate, and that those who are accused of being racist should just shut up and accept it?

Well, I don't think I've ben misconstrued more in my life. And you literally are provide evidence for my point. That word came up and you automatically decided how you'd treat me. I'd hate to see what happens when you actually get called racists.

Instead of coming in and having a discussion, you got offended and ranted.

Me specificallly, I'm asking for people being called racist to stop being so offended. Firstly, becuase its usually those types of people who throw around snowflake, making them massive hypocrits. Secondly, they use this instance as an excuse for their own victimhood. It's not about the conversation, its about how mean those other guys are. It's not about whether racism accusations are truthful, its about lashing out at a threat. It's not about defending the qualities of your statement. Which is the whole point of being in the conversation.

So no, its not shut up and accept it. My message might be grow up, people are going insult you all the time. I'm asking for listening to people. And I'm trying to be very clear that this also covers people using racist as well.

The Lunatic:

trunkage:
I also say this of anyone is accussed of beinf racist. They're too scared to find out if it's true so they just blame everyone else.

As the new adage goes: people are more scared of being called racist than doing any thinking about whether they are racist

I can pretty safely say I have no care if the current absurd definition of racism applies to me or not. It has nothing to do with actual racism.

Attempting to appease such a definition would be fruitless and of zero benefit to anyone.

Yes, I know Lunatic. You're all high and mighty, telling us lowlifes how to live.

Funny how you couldnt leave this alone. Had to go around, telling us how above it all you are.... Perhaps it affects you more than you think.

You know I was actually asking for people opinions on what racism is, in their opinion. How about you add that since the current definition is so absurd? Then, perhaps, we could actually have a chat instead of insults

trunkage:
Me specificallly, I'm asking for people being called racist to stop being so offended. Firstly, becuase its usually those types of people who throw around snowflake, making them massive hypocrits. Secondly, they use this instance as an excuse for their own victimhood. It's not about the conversation, its about how mean those other guys are. It's not about whether racism accusations are truthful, its about lashing out at a threat. It's not about defending the qualities of your statement. Which is the whole point of being in the conversation.

So no, its not shut up and accept it. My message might be grow up, people are going insult you all the time. I'm asking for listening to people. And I'm trying to be very clear that this also covers people using racist as well.

I am afraid you are not being very clear about that. Your message is literally, that if someone calls you a racist, to not discus the fact they are calling you a racist. To tell them they are wrong without telling them what they are wrong about.

Finally, I prove you right by being "offended"?

This is the situation, someone calls me a racist in a public setting, what do I do?

Seanchaidh:
White people need to stop being so defensive about racism. Take a minute, cool off if you need to, and if you really don't understand why, ask.

Politely.

Yip. So many are concerned about looking flawed or weak, less than the image of themselves they cultivate in their mind. Better to find an easy soundbite or meme to bolster validation of one's pride than to introspect and risk humbling one's identity.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here