Liam Neeson and the progressive hypocrisy his example reveals

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT
 

Saelune:

My biggest problem are all the racist using this fabricated outrage to justify their own bigotry. People acting like there is a swarm of 'SJW's' marching on Neeson's home with pitchforks or something.

Yeah, its good for people to admit their mistakes, but lets not pretend that we should be more proud of them as if they are doing something extraordinary. We should be more proud of all the people who knew better right away.

And in both these you are absolutely right.

Saelune:
My biggest problem are all the racist using this fabricated outrage to justify their own bigotry. People acting like there is a swarm of 'SJW's' marching on Neeson's home with pitchforks or something.

Yeah, its good for people to admit their mistakes, but lets not pretend that we should be more proud of them as if they are doing something extraordinary. We should be more proud of all the people who knew better right away.

As I pointed out to Panda, where is my praise for not going out and beating up Republicans?

Why are we treating a person who went out with an intent to kill as more admirable than people who think that racism is bad?

I know how weird this sounds, trust me...

But this is exactly the problem people have with Superman and the odd fondness they have for Batman.

For some unknown reason, a quite vocal contingent of people think doing good is commonplace. That good is the easy choice. I have no idea what world these people live in, but as far as I see it Apathy is commonplace. It's the easiest choice one can make because it involves not doing a damn thing.

Superman is selfless, he puts himself in harm's way, and he chooses to let people be judged by their peers, not his ridiculous might. People consider this unrealistic.

Batman, instead of working out his problems with therapy and devoting his billions to fund better schools, get himself elected as something to root out the corruption in GCPD, or the like... He spends a literal fortune on a suit and a car that he uses to punching a handful of criminals a night to work out his feelings of being wronged. And people absolutely love the character for it.

A good deal of people don't actually admire the ability to let go. Not as much as they value taking action. Keeping the peace is nice, but going out and "doing something" about it is laudable. Facing your demons and continuing to be polite while having discourse with people means nothing in this world. It's accepted. Facing your demons while going out and making justice your own through grit and determination is secretly almost everyone's fantasy.

For better or worse, Neeson has become a generation's Batman. And with that, comes the same type of fanboy love and defense.

ObsidianJones:

Saelune:
My biggest problem are all the racist using this fabricated outrage to justify their own bigotry. People acting like there is a swarm of 'SJW's' marching on Neeson's home with pitchforks or something.

Yeah, its good for people to admit their mistakes, but lets not pretend that we should be more proud of them as if they are doing something extraordinary. We should be more proud of all the people who knew better right away.

As I pointed out to Panda, where is my praise for not going out and beating up Republicans?

Why are we treating a person who went out with an intent to kill as more admirable than people who think that racism is bad?

I know how weird this sounds, trust me...

But this is exactly the problem people have with Superman and the odd fondness they have for Batman.

For some unknown reason, a quite vocal contingent of people think doing good is commonplace. That good is the easy choice. I have no idea what world these people live in, but as far as I see it Apathy is commonplace. It's the easiest choice one can make because it involves not doing a damn thing.

Superman is selfless, he puts himself in harm's way, and he chooses to let people be judged by their peers, not his ridiculous might. People consider this unrealistic.

Batman, instead of working out his problems with therapy and devoting his billions to fund better schools, get himself elected as something to root out the corruption in GCPD, or the like... He spends a literal fortune on a suit and a car that he uses to punching a handful of criminals a night to work out his feelings of being wronged. And people absolutely love the character for it.

A good deal of people don't actually admire the ability to let go. Not as much as they value taking action. Keeping the peace is nice, but going out and "doing something" about it is laudable. Facing your demons and continuing to be polite while having discourse with people means nothing in this world. It's accepted. Facing your demons while going out and making justice your own through grit and determination is secretly almost everyone's fantasy.

For better or worse, Neeson has become a generation's Batman. And with that, comes the same type of fanboy love and defense.

Nah, people just hate taking responsibility for their own actions and so they feel threatened when people put that responsibility on them. It is the same reason so many straight white men are threatened by a commercial telling them to not be shitty.

Also people just don't want to think the famous people they like might be kinda shitty. I love Neeson as an actor, and Id rather not think that Schindler/Quigon/Dad from Taken might be racist.

Saelune:
Nah, people just hate taking responsibility for their own actions and so they feel threatened when people put that responsibility on them. It is the same reason so many straight white men are threatened by a commercial telling them to not be shitty.

Also people just don't want to think the famous people they like might be kinda shitty. I love Neeson as an actor, and Id rather not think that Schindler/Quigon/Dad from Taken might be racist.

Neeson has been around for a while, and was an actor that most people thought of "Oh, that guy from 'Schindler's List'".

Now I wonder how many average people knows that he was any other movie that wasn't a Revenge Flick. The current climate like him for that, not his work in "Love Actually"

Gethsemani:
However, we should probably admire that Neeson, as an internationally recognized public person, has the courage to talk about how he did something stupid and dangerous in his youth and now is trying to make amends for doing so. That doesn't mean we have to consider him a hero or a paragon or even a good guy. But credit where credit is due, it takes guts to make public something as shameful as trying to incite racially motivated violence and doing so in an effort to point out that it is stupid and counter-productive.

So, here's the thing..

If some celebrity were to come out and say they used to hang around queer nights armed with a baseball bat looking for "faggots" to kick the shit out of because they were in a bad place in their life and wanted to kill someone, then that story has a very strong emotional component for me because I've been on the receiving end of that.

I mean, if someone got to that stage but never actually did anything, I guess that's good. If someone who got to that stage is aware of how awful they were and has made an effort to grow past it, that's really great.. I'm glad for them, and I hope others find the same path, but I didn't ask to know. I wouldn't really want to be forced to listen to a detailed account of what that person wanted or planned to do. I wouldn't find it empowering to hear about, not when similar things are still going on.

Sure, people who engage in hate crime and violence might just be young people doing stupid and dangerous things, and might have bad shit going on in their lives which in their minds justifies what they're doing, and maybe they'll grow up and regret it one day. Maybe that revelation is very profound to some people, but personally I'd rather not be reminded that my right to exist in public space can be revoked at any time because someone else might be going through a personal crisis. It's not a fun thing to be made aware of.

Which doesn't mean noone has the right to say it, but I don't think it's really fair to expect to be able to walk away unscathed from that revelation. I mean, sure, it takes courage to admit your mistakes. But it also takes courage to get up and carry on with your life each day knowing that somewhere, a young Liam Neeson might be in a bad spot and thus feel entitled to kill you for no reason.

There's no consideration in this debate of the impact on people who might still be living with the same threat of violence, no consideration of their mental health and a complete denial of their right to make public their feelings of anger and disappointment. That bothers me a lot.

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

That was his point. I honestly don't know what you're rambling about. Nobody is admiring the action he intended or the head space he was in, it's the honesty that is appreciated (by some).

Is it inconceivable that what he said might help someone harboring fucked up feelings see error in them? That it might make us think about our own irrationally arrived at conclusions about group x? There's a fuckton of angry young men out there that could use a little guidance from older male figures who understand.

And condemning his past actions is not 'beating him up for it' and also the utter hypocrisy of admiring Neeson for 'not commting a racially motivated murder' but condemning people for being bothered by that? You should be ADMIRING ME for not going out and beating up random Irish men.

Again it's not the act of not committing a crime that is being admired(this is really stupid...), and I am not personally "condemning" anyone for "being bothered".

I await your next self-righteous rant with baited breath.

evilthecat:

Sexual Harassment Panda:
If there's any admiration it's for having the balls to 'fess to something like this instead of taking it to the grave with you.

'Fess up to what?

Liam Neeson isn't racist, remember. He said he isn't racist. He would have done the same thing if it was a Scot, or a Lithuanian (because white people are distinguished by nationality but black people are distinguished by race).

Remember, he grew up during the troubles. He saw the effects of prejudice first hand, so he can't be a racist. Sure, he just went out to black neighbourhoods (yes, he said that, it's not something people are inferring) armed with a weapon looking to murder a random black man, but he did it in a totally non-racist way.

I mean, what is this PC world coming to when you can't even promote your revenge movie which openly celebrates murdering people in revenge for crimes without talking about how you really understand your characters motivation because you once went out looking to do a racially motivated murder in a completely non-racist way because you're not a racist and cannot be a racist.

Seriously though, Liam Neeson is rich enough to pay a psychiatrist if he needs someone to confess to. As it is, telling random people you used to hate them so much you literally tried to murder people like them isn't a very nice thing to do, and expecting them to instantly forgive and to just suck up any ill feeling because apparently it's their responsibility not to ruin your confession just makes it worse.

Thanks. Totally worthwhile.

I wonder. Is "expecting them to instantly forgive" based on anything he actually said?

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

That was his point. I honestly don't know what you're rambling about. Nobody is admiring the action he intended or the head space he was in, it's the honesty that is appreciated (by some).

Is it inconceivable that what he said might help someone harboring fucked up feelings see error in them? That it might make us think about our own irrationally arrived at conclusions about group x? There's a fuckton of angry young men out there that could use a little guidance from older male figures who understand.

And condemning his past actions is not 'beating him up for it' and also the utter hypocrisy of admiring Neeson for 'not commting a racially motivated murder' but condemning people for being bothered by that? You should be ADMIRING ME for not going out and beating up random Irish men.

Again it's not the act of not committing a crime that is being admired(this is really stupid...), and I am not personally "condemning" anyone for "being bothered".

I await your next self-righteous rant with baited breath.

Its 2019 you're allowed to change your views but you'll still be judged on your past actions regardless.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Its 2019 you're allowed to change your views but you'll still be judged on your past actions regardless.

I didn't know that was the theme this year.

I get it to a point. Genuine forgiveness can be difficult.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

evilthecat:

Sexual Harassment Panda:
If there's any admiration it's for having the balls to 'fess to something like this instead of taking it to the grave with you.

'Fess up to what?

Liam Neeson isn't racist, remember. He said he isn't racist. He would have done the same thing if it was a Scot, or a Lithuanian (because white people are distinguished by nationality but black people are distinguished by race).

Remember, he grew up during the troubles. He saw the effects of prejudice first hand, so he can't be a racist. Sure, he just went out to black neighbourhoods (yes, he said that, it's not something people are inferring) armed with a weapon looking to murder a random black man, but he did it in a totally non-racist way.

I mean, what is this PC world coming to when you can't even promote your revenge movie which openly celebrates murdering people in revenge for crimes without talking about how you really understand your characters motivation because you once went out looking to do a racially motivated murder in a completely non-racist way because you're not a racist and cannot be a racist.

Seriously though, Liam Neeson is rich enough to pay a psychiatrist if he needs someone to confess to. As it is, telling random people you used to hate them so much you literally tried to murder people like them isn't a very nice thing to do, and expecting them to instantly forgive and to just suck up any ill feeling because apparently it's their responsibility not to ruin your confession just makes it worse.

Thanks. Totally worthwhile.

I wonder. Is "expecting them to instantly forgive" based on anything he actually said?

I felt like it was an expectation.

I mean, he said some screwed up stuff. I could claim that Nesson isn't racist but that action definitely was. I'm going to be pointing it out for a few weeks. Its going to take me a while to process it

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

That was his point. I honestly don't know what you're rambling about. Nobody is admiring the action he intended or the head space he was in, it's the honesty that is appreciated (by some).

Is it inconceivable that what he said might help someone harboring fucked up feelings see error in them? That it might make us think about our own irrationally arrived at conclusions about group x? There's a fuckton of angry young men out there that could use a little guidance from older male figures who understand.

And condemning his past actions is not 'beating him up for it' and also the utter hypocrisy of admiring Neeson for 'not commting a racially motivated murder' but condemning people for being bothered by that? You should be ADMIRING ME for not going out and beating up random Irish men.

Again it's not the act of not committing a crime that is being admired(this is really stupid...), and I am not personally "condemning" anyone for "being bothered".

I await your next self-righteous rant with baited breath.

Honestly, at this point I have a bigger problem with people defending Neeson than I do Neeson. I know you're trying to twist it as if I am out to get Neeson, but I am not. I am however, out to prove how ridiculous your defense of him is. Your clear and blatant attempts at making me the villain here as opposed to the person WHO LITERALLY WENT OUT WITH THE INTENT TO MURDER INNOCENT BLACK MEN is absurd.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

That was his point. I honestly don't know what you're rambling about. Nobody is admiring the action he intended or the head space he was in, it's the honesty that is appreciated (by some).

Is it inconceivable that what he said might help someone harboring fucked up feelings see error in them? That it might make us think about our own irrationally arrived at conclusions about group x? There's a fuckton of angry young men out there that could use a little guidance from older male figures who understand.

And condemning his past actions is not 'beating him up for it' and also the utter hypocrisy of admiring Neeson for 'not commting a racially motivated murder' but condemning people for being bothered by that? You should be ADMIRING ME for not going out and beating up random Irish men.

Again it's not the act of not committing a crime that is being admired(this is really stupid...), and I am not personally "condemning" anyone for "being bothered".

I await your next self-righteous rant with baited breath.

Its 2019 you're allowed to change your views but you'll still be judged on your past actions regardless.

Saelune:

My biggest problem are all the racist using this fabricated outrage to justify their own bigotry. People acting like there is a swarm of 'SJW's' marching on Neeson's home with pitchforks or something.

Yeah, its good for people to admit their mistakes, but lets not pretend that we should be more proud of them as if they are doing something extraordinary. We should be more proud of all the people who knew better right away.

Saelune:
Honestly, at this point I have a bigger problem with people defending Neeson than I do Neeson. I know you're trying to twist it as if I am out to get Neeson, but I am not.

I'm twisting things? You're projecting so hard.

No, I'm trying to frame it as you're rambling and not making sense. I don't care how you feel about Neeson, I was only trying to help you understand how thoroughly you miss the point.

I am however, out to prove how ridiculous your defense of him is. Your clear and blatant attempts at making me the villain here as opposed to the person WHO LITERALLY WENT OUT WITH THE INTENT TO MURDER INNOCENT BLACK MEN is absurd.

I don't really feel like I'm defending him, to be honest. There is some space in-between righteous condemnation and he "he did nothing wrong", even if you can't comprehend that.

It's not that you're the bad guy it's just that you say stupid shit like: "Look, I am glad he did not, I am glad he eventually saw reason, but I am not glad that the bar is so fucking low that this is admirable. 'I could have beat you, but I didn't, be grateful' is not the same as 'I would never beat you because that is wrong".

It's clearly a vile mis-characterisation of what he said and everyone who sees this little controversy differently to you. You force me into the situation of thinking you genuinely don't understand what people are talking about, or that you're purposely twisting things to make them worse than they already are.

Sexual Harassment Panda:
Thanks. Totally worthwhile.

I wonder. Is "expecting them to instantly forgive" based on anything he actually said?

I mean, there's the explanation he gave afterwards, which came across as dismissive and essentially amounted to "I'm not racist and cannot be racist", "this happened a long time ago" and "I would have felt just as bad if it had been a white person" and "everyone is a little bit bigoted" but never included any words like "I'm sorry that people were hurt by what I said" or "I'm sorry I was racist in the past (even though it's not who I am any more, and this is why)."

And to be fair, a lot of that is just poor choice of words and Neeson's agent deserves a lot of blame because he clearly wasn't prepared properly for that interview (and both they and him are going to suffer financially for it).

But honestly, I'm mostly talking about the people who have come out to defend Neeson by explaining things people already know, like that he felt bad about the way he behaved (just not bad enough to apologise for it). I think the important conversation will happen when we don't just gloss over the stuff which is uncomfortable, like that fact that Liam Neeson did something really racist, or the fact that the racist thing he did is still a huge problem which many people have to live with. No amount of context or talking about who he is or what his life experience is or what his true emotional state was or how long ago it was is going to change the fact it was really racist. Let that sink in for a moment before reaching immediately for the excuses, let people have a moment of anger and disappointment, because it's clear that a lot of people were hurt.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
Honestly, at this point I have a bigger problem with people defending Neeson than I do Neeson. I know you're trying to twist it as if I am out to get Neeson, but I am not.

I'm twisting things? You're projecting so hard.

No, I'm trying to frame it as you're rambling and not making sense. I don't care how you feel about Neeson, I was only trying to help you understand how thoroughly you miss the point.

I am however, out to prove how ridiculous your defense of him is. Your clear and blatant attempts at making me the villain here as opposed to the person WHO LITERALLY WENT OUT WITH THE INTENT TO MURDER INNOCENT BLACK MEN is absurd.

I don't really feel like I'm defending him, to be honest. There is some space in-between righteous condemnation and he "he did nothing wrong", even if you can't comprehend that.

It's not that you're the bad guy it's just that you say stupid shit like: "Look, I am glad he did not, I am glad he eventually saw reason, but I am not glad that the bar is so fucking low that this is admirable. 'I could have beat you, but I didn't, be grateful' is not the same as 'I would never beat you because that is wrong".

It's clearly a vile mis-characterisation of what he said and everyone who sees this little controversy differently to you. You force me into the situation of thinking you genuinely don't understand what people are talking about, or that you're purposely twisting things to make them worse than they already are.

'Im not trying to twist you into the bad guy, now let me tell you why you're the bad guy'.

This is a load of bullshit and you know it.

Saelune:
'Im not trying to twist you into the bad guy, now let me tell you why you're the bad guy'.

This is a load of bullshit and you know it.

evilthecat:

Sexual Harassment Panda:
Thanks. Totally worthwhile.

I wonder. Is "expecting them to instantly forgive" based on anything he actually said?

I mean, there's the explanation he gave afterwards, which came across as dismissive and essentially amounted to "I'm not racist and cannot be racist", "this happened a long time ago" and "I would have felt just as bad if it had been a white person" and "everyone is a little bit bigoted" but never included any words like "I'm sorry that people were hurt by what I said" or "I'm sorry I was racist in the past (even though it's not who I am any more, and this is why)."

And to be fair, a lot of that is just poor choice of words and Neeson's agent deserves a lot of blame because he clearly wasn't prepared properly for that interview (and both they and him are going to suffer financially for it).

I guess he didn't say "sorry", but he seems legitimately ashamed and sorry for it. Horses for courses on to what extent this bothers you, I suppose.

It does come across as ill-thought out, and pretty idiotic.

But honestly, I'm mostly talking about the people who have come out to defend Neeson by explaining things people already know, like that he felt bad about the way he behaved (just not bad enough to apologise for it). I think the important conversation will happen when we don't just gloss over the stuff which is uncomfortable, like that fact that Liam Neeson did something really racist, or the fact that the racist thing he did is still a huge problem which many people have to live with.

People are talking about it in those terms. The awkward conversation is being had on news shows, they're not glossing over the racist angle... At least not on anything that I've seen.

No amount of context or talking about who he is or what his life experience is or what his true emotional state was or how long ago it was is going to change the fact it was really racist.

It was very racist.

Let that sink in for a moment before reaching immediately for the excuses, let people have a moment of anger and disappointment, because it's clear that a lot of people were hurt.

Uncharitably read "let people have a moment of anger and disappointment" sounds a lot like "shut-up". There is no denying anyone else their anger. You don't need my permission to be as angry as you wanna be. To be real... I'm disappointed (as weird as saying that feels) too. His story did make me think though.

I'm not trying to excuse him, I just can't turn off the part of my brain that wonders how different I would be with his rough upbringing. Or even if I'd grown up in the times of openly racist-cartoons and in a basically exclusively white area. It's relevant to me and how I feel about it. There is a clear advantage in being a millennial from a cosmopolitan area, both in terms of being given the best opportunity to have interactions with people who are different to you (can be a very good way to dispel silly notions) and in terms of having been given a better understanding of what to say from the messaging I received.

/brainfart

Real talk. I've never been good at communicating ideas and nowadays I'm on meds that fuzz me out. Apologies.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
'Im not trying to twist you into the bad guy, now let me tell you why you're the bad guy'.

This is a load of bullshit and you know it.

evilthecat:

Sexual Harassment Panda:
Thanks. Totally worthwhile.

I wonder. Is "expecting them to instantly forgive" based on anything he actually said?

I mean, there's the explanation he gave afterwards, which came across as dismissive and essentially amounted to "I'm not racist and cannot be racist", "this happened a long time ago" and "I would have felt just as bad if it had been a white person" and "everyone is a little bit bigoted" but never included any words like "I'm sorry that people were hurt by what I said" or "I'm sorry I was racist in the past (even though it's not who I am any more, and this is why)."

And to be fair, a lot of that is just poor choice of words and Neeson's agent deserves a lot of blame because he clearly wasn't prepared properly for that interview (and both they and him are going to suffer financially for it).

I guess he didn't say "sorry", but he seems legitimately ashamed and sorry for it. Horses for courses on to what extent this bothers you, I suppose.

It does come across as ill-thought out, and pretty idiotic.

But honestly, I'm mostly talking about the people who have come out to defend Neeson by explaining things people already know, like that he felt bad about the way he behaved (just not bad enough to apologise for it). I think the important conversation will happen when we don't just gloss over the stuff which is uncomfortable, like that fact that Liam Neeson did something really racist, or the fact that the racist thing he did is still a huge problem which many people have to live with.

People are talking about it in those terms. The awkward conversation is being had on news shows, they're not glossing over the racist angle... At least not on anything that I've seen.

No amount of context or talking about who he is or what his life experience is or what his true emotional state was or how long ago it was is going to change the fact it was really racist.

It was very racist.

Let that sink in for a moment before reaching immediately for the excuses, let people have a moment of anger and disappointment, because it's clear that a lot of people were hurt.

Uncharitably read "let people have a moment of anger and disappointment" sounds a lot like "shut-up". There is no denying anyone else their anger. You don't need my permission to be as angry as you wanna be. To be real... I'm disappointed (as weird as saying that feels) too. His story did make me think though.

I'm not trying to excuse him, I just can't turn off the part of my brain that wonders how different I would be with his rough upbringing. Or even if I'd grown up in the times of openly racist-cartoons and in a basically exclusively white area. It's relevant to me and how I feel about it. There is a clear advantage in being a millennial from a cosmopolitan area, both in terms of being given the best opportunity to have interactions with people who are different to you (can be a very good way to dispel silly notions) and in terms of having been given a better understanding of what to say from the messaging I received.

/brainfart

Real talk. I've never been good at communicating ideas and nowadays I'm on meds that fuzz me out. Apologies.

I wish you would give the benefit of the doubt that you give Neeson to everyone else who is not a straight white rich man.

Saelune:
I wish you would give the benefit of the doubt that you give Neeson to everyone else who is not a straight white rich man.

Considering how little you know about me this is a pretty cheap and despicable ploy.

You've been staring into the abyss too long, Saelune.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
I wish you would give the benefit of the doubt that you give Neeson to everyone else who is not a straight white rich man.

Considering how little you know about me this is a pretty cheap and despicable ploy.

You've been staring into the abyss too long, Saelune.

And yet you claim to know me so well.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

That was his point. I honestly don't know what you're rambling about. Nobody is admiring the action he intended or the head space he was in, it's the honesty that is appreciated (by some).

Is it inconceivable that what he said might help someone harboring fucked up feelings see error in them? That it might make us think about our own irrationally arrived at conclusions about group x? There's a fuckton of angry young men out there that could use a little guidance from older male figures who understand.

And condemning his past actions is not 'beating him up for it' and also the utter hypocrisy of admiring Neeson for 'not commting a racially motivated murder' but condemning people for being bothered by that? You should be ADMIRING ME for not going out and beating up random Irish men.

Again it's not the act of not committing a crime that is being admired(this is really stupid...), and I am not personally "condemning" anyone for "being bothered".

I await your next self-righteous rant with baited breath.

So its ok when you do it, but not me? Got it. I believe there is a term for that. Oh right, hypocrite.

Either debate my points or don't, but resorting to personal attacks is supposed to be against the rules.

Sausage fingers = double post.

I didn't want to focus on the racism aspect, not because I thought it would undermine the general point I was trying to illustrate, but because it's really all speculation. Only Liam Neeson really knows whether he's racist or not, and if he is, then I would completely disavow any support for him. The inference I made from his statements was that there would not be too many black males in 1970s Ulster as a percentage of the population, so his ill-advised tactic of looking for trouble at night would be his best bet at, purely by chance, coming face to face with the rapist. There's some logic there, even if it's still horribly indiscriminate. He used the phrase "black bastard", true, but the original interviewer noted he paused to give "air quotes", the verbal equivalent of writing [sic]; it may have been commonplace parlance but he appeared to be distancing himself from the sentiment. And lastly, what if the rapist's distinguishing feature was that he was a fat, or a redhead? Neeson would have gone prowling around looking for somebody who fit that description. It would have been every bit as unjust, but would have avoided this racial element.

So ultimately, who knows? *If* Neeson is racist that's terrible, I don't believe he is, and I don't think we have enough evidence to make that supposition.

PsychedelicDiamond:
Go fuck right off with "leftist McCarthyism", though.

Wikipedia: McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence. [...] During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, academics and labor union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was sometimes exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment or destruction of their careers; some were imprisoned. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts that were later overturned, laws that were later declared unconstitutional, dismissals for reasons later declared illegal or actionable, or extra-legal procedures, such as informal blacklists, that would come into general disrepute.

Do you disagree that similar practices are happening today, or do you simply discount it because this time it's the "bad guys" getting punished instead of the "good guys"?

Saelune:
I see people mad at people mad at Liam Neeson. I haven't seen a lot of people mad at Liam Neeson.

That'll be selective, then. Type #LiamNeeson into Twitter. Search for his name in whatever news website you like.

Saelune:
Has anyone assaulted Liam Neeson?

Oh, is that the benchmark? Anything less than assault is OK? Would you be happy to endure everything falling just short of physical assault from somebody who disagreed with you? Your posting history suggests not.

Agema:
How did we get to a point where the social media peanut gallery was assumed to be so important, and representative of entire political ideologies? It seems so often a mass abandonment of our own sensibilities - firstly social media itself which lends itself to vacuity and cheap outrage, and secondly criticism of it all that all too often is equally trivial, shallow outrage.

In all honesty, probably around the time the President of the USA chose Twitter as his primary means of communication? The proliferation of partisan clickbait journalism, the blurring of the boundaries between reporting and op/ed pieces, doxxing as an apparently valid political tactic rather than the reserve of scumbags posting on /b/, and so on? Lets not kid ourselves that social media in 2019 is just sharing funny cat photos and Words With Friends requests. Media - both mainstream, social, and whatever purgatory Buzzfeed, Vice etc inhabit - is most definitely political.

evilthecat:
Also, it's really baffling that you can't see this, but Liam Neeson is playing the macho man. Like, he's talking about how he was so angry he went out looking for people to murder. That's pretty damn macho.

I'd have to disagree with you there. He clearly wasn't bragging. He wasn't taking pride in having these thoughts. Quite the opposite - he was admitting that real life, ad-hoc acts of revenge are unglamorous, destructive things, very different to the "dad power fantasy" movie he has become synonymous with.

I would also question whether feeling a desire for revenge is exclusively masculine. Wasn't Thelma and Louise supposedly an empowering movie for women? Revenge is a perfectly natural impulse, it's almost certainly evolved behaviour to ensure social stability through the punishment of transgressions. It's even enshrined in law: if a crime takes place, we both look after the victim and punish the guilty, don't we? So I don't get this mutually exclusive thinking that concludes that Neeson could be a good friend or he could be seeking revenge, but not both. Unless he was this friend's primary caregiver it seems obvious he'd have time to do both.

evilthecat:
Like, if Liam Neeson had just said "after this happened, I was so angry I took a cosh and went up and down areas hoping someone would have a go at me about something and I could kill them" that would have been fine

That would have been FINE?! What, just because there would be no "-ism" accompanying the random act of murder?

Saelune:
He went out with the intent to murder any innocent black man who crossed his path wrong, there is NOTHING admirable about that. Nothing. That is a shame he will have to live with forever that he even got that far.

Neeson said he was looking/hoping to be 'set upon', meaning he wanted a black man to jump him/mug him to be able to unleash violence. While this hypothetical mugger would be (almost certainly) be innocent of the rape, that doesn't mean they'd be innocent altogether. Please note that I am not excusing his actions and attempted actions.He should not have done what he did.

Saelune:
I see people mad at people mad at Liam Neeson. I haven't seen a lot of people mad at Liam Neeson.

Also here is the thing, you're mad at people expressing their opinion, because you think people should be allowed to freely express their opinions. Just saying.

Has anyone assaulted Liam Neeson?

And the whole point of Liam telling that story was to show how he's changed and evolved. He literally said it was terrible to think of killing a 'black bastard' and it scared him and his thought was 'What the fuck are you thinking?!'
Anyone mad at him doesn't really understand the point of the story. Its not that he's currently racists, its that as a young man he had a significant emotional breakdown, when to a racists dark place, and then crawled his way back, and he's disgusted that his mind could go that far.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I see people mad at people mad at Liam Neeson. I haven't seen a lot of people mad at Liam Neeson.

Also here is the thing, you're mad at people expressing their opinion, because you think people should be allowed to freely express their opinions. Just saying.

Has anyone assaulted Liam Neeson?

And the whole point of Liam telling that story was to show how he's changed and evolved. He literally said it was terrible to think of killing a 'black bastard' and it scared him and his thought was 'What the fuck are you thinking?!'
Anyone mad at him doesn't really understand the point of the story. Its not that he's currently racists, its that as a young man he had a significant emotional breakdown, when to a racists dark place, and then crawled his way back, and he's disgusted that his mind could go that far.

Stop defending racists.

Rarara.

Abomination:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I see people mad at people mad at Liam Neeson. I haven't seen a lot of people mad at Liam Neeson.

Also here is the thing, you're mad at people expressing their opinion, because you think people should be allowed to freely express their opinions. Just saying.

Has anyone assaulted Liam Neeson?

And the whole point of Liam telling that story was to show how he's changed and evolved. He literally said it was terrible to think of killing a 'black bastard' and it scared him and his thought was 'What the fuck are you thinking?!'
Anyone mad at him doesn't really understand the point of the story. Its not that he's currently racists, its that as a young man he had a significant emotional breakdown, when to a racists dark place, and then crawled his way back, and he's disgusted that his mind could go that far.

Stop defending racists.

Rarara.

image

Batou667:
Do you disagree that similar practices are happening today

Yes.

they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.

Liam Neeson is doing just fine.

Batou667:
I didn't want to focus on the racism aspect, not because I thought it would undermine the general point I was trying to illustrate, but because it's really all speculation. Only Liam Neeson really knows whether he's racist or not, and if he is, then I would completely disavow any support for him. The inference I made from his statements was that there would not be too many black males in 1970s Ulster as a percentage of the population, so his ill-advised tactic of looking for trouble at night would be his best bet at, purely by chance, coming face to face with the rapist. There's some logic there, even if it's still horribly indiscriminate. He used the phrase "black bastard", true, but the original interviewer noted he paused to give "air quotes", the verbal equivalent of writing [sic]; it may have been commonplace parlance but he appeared to be distancing himself from the sentiment. And lastly, what if the rapist's distinguishing feature was that he was a fat, or a redhead? Neeson would have gone prowling around looking for somebody who fit that description. It would have been every bit as unjust, but would have avoided this racial element.

So ultimately, who knows? *If* Neeson is racist that's terrible, I don't believe he is, and I don't think we have enough evidence to make that supposition.

If you are a racist, you usually totally unaware. People dont think about hating on people, they have an ideal and unaware of what impact their making.

Nesson was did something racist. He's said he doesnt act like that anymore. I'll take him at his word and this incident doesnt determine whether he's a racist. Unless something more comes out, I'd accept that.

PsychedelicDiamond:
Go fuck right off with "leftist McCarthyism", though.

Wikipedia: McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence. [...] During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, academics and labor union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was sometimes exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment or destruction of their careers; some were imprisoned. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts that were later overturned, laws that were later declared unconstitutional, dismissals for reasons later declared illegal or actionable, or extra-legal procedures, such as informal blacklists, that would come into general disrepute.

Do you disagree that similar practices are happening today, or do you simply discount it because this time it's the "bad guys" getting punished instead of the "good guys"?

What, like how Trump deems every Mexican a racist? Drug dealer? All muslims terrorist?

There should be conseqeucnes to people's actions. If you are an asshole, dont expect to keep your job. If you call someone a n*****, even a Nazi, dont expect advertisers to stay onboard. If you say you did something racist, expect advertisers to change the plans of your media circuit. With Nesson, there needs to be some reputational punishment, but temporary as he gains our trust back. Anything less could be misinterpreted as condoning his behaviour.

So when does it go to far? Well, Nesson made a confession. That's NOT made up. Sargon said a bad word. There are recording. That what happened. So no, none of this is McCarthyism. You have to have literal made up evidence for the analogy to work. There probably are cases that are done by the Left. This is definitely not the case here.

You COULD claim its an over reaction.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I see people mad at people mad at Liam Neeson. I haven't seen a lot of people mad at Liam Neeson.

Also here is the thing, you're mad at people expressing their opinion, because you think people should be allowed to freely express their opinions. Just saying.

Has anyone assaulted Liam Neeson?

And the whole point of Liam telling that story was to show how he's changed and evolved. He literally said it was terrible to think of killing a 'black bastard' and it scared him and his thought was 'What the fuck are you thinking?!'
Anyone mad at him doesn't really understand the point of the story. Its not that he's currently racists, its that as a young man he had a significant emotional breakdown, when to a racists dark place, and then crawled his way back, and he's disgusted that his mind could go that far.

Me: 'I forgive him, but wont forget what he did'
Everyone arguing with me: 'How dare you be so mean to Liam Neeson!'

Saelune:
Me: 'I forgive him, but wont forget what he did'
Everyone arguing with me: 'How dare you be so mean to Liam Neeson!'

Funny thing about asking for forgiveness. It's about accepting responsibility for your actions including past ones. Forgiveness doesnt exempt you from punishment. That would be the opposite of forgiveness

Wait, the SJWs aren't mobbing Neeson's hosue demanding his blood?

Then why did I bother making all this cole slaw?

*flips table*

trunkage:

Saelune:
Me: 'I forgive him, but wont forget what he did'
Everyone arguing with me: 'How dare you be so mean to Liam Neeson!'

Funny thing about asking for forgiveness. It's about accepting responsibility for your actions including past ones. Forgiveness doesnt exempt you from punishment. That would be the opposite of forgiveness

Many of the same who are 'defending Neeson' tend to be the same who are upset that a shaving commercial said men should be not shitty, and hate that women are in Battlefield V.

Ok, first up, Stoicism does not mean you have no emotions or you don't let them show. It means you controle them and not the otherway around, but people confuse the two and so think it means showing less emotions than a Vulcan (usualy by people who don't let some emotions be shown unless its extreme anger or swagger).

As for the other, its not like he acted upon those fantasies. It sounds more like a James Gunn Situation where this was back when he was immature and its been a few years since he grew out of it.

Its not exactly a Whinestine situation.

I don't get what the big deal is. Yes, what he wanted to do was awful, but he didn't actually go through with it. And does regret it to this day. And haven't we all done things in the past we regret?

Unfortunately, people these days are so willing to jump on a person for anything...

CrazyGirl17:
I don't get what the big deal is. Yes, what he wanted to do was awful, but he didn't actually go through with it. And does regret it to this day. And haven't we all done things in the past we regret?

Unfortunately, people these days are so willing to jump on a person for anything...

People aren't jumping on him. People are jumping on people who they think are jumping on him. Until people go to his house with pitchforks, people defending him are the ones blowing things out of proportion.

And for the record, I do not support anyone who goes to his house with pitchforks, unless they are there to help him bail hay.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here