Is anyone surprised the US made the ten 10 list of most dangerous UN countries to be a woman?

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I'm not surprised in the least.
http://news.trust.org//item/20180612134519-cxz54/

As most know I volunteer at the battered women's and children's shelter here and with the safe house network where we place families in severe danger into hiding in "safe houses" and will not even reveal their location under court order in an attempt to keep them from being killed. Many of the women working the safe house network have been willing to sit out time in jail to protect the families here by refusing to reveal their location, as revealing their location, even to the court, would likely result in harm or death to the people in protection. Often the abusers have financial, political and clout in law enforcement that allows them to continue to carry out their abuse. In the US, there is no protection for victims, the prison system is not used as a tool to keep perpetrators from their victims, instead they are still allowed to carry out attacks and hits from behind bars. When you have law enforcement officers, and those with wealth and power who are the abusers, the victims have no where to turn for safety.

We still have women dying at an alarming rate in the US from domestic violence and even within our healthcare system. There is no excuse for the sheer number of women who die during childbirth to be rising in one of the wealthiest nations on earth.

https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/528098789/u-s-has-the-worst-rate-of-maternal-deaths-in-the-developed-world
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/domestic-violence-nearly-three-u-s-women-killed-every-day-n745166
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
https://now.org/resource/violence-against-women-in-the-united-states-statistic/
https://www.hcn.org/articles/tribal-affairs-why-native-american-women-still-have-the-highest-rates-of-rape-and-assault

Having been on the receiving end of both sexual and physical violence from multiple men, I am not surprised in the least and think the US should have been on this list much sooner. It only made it now due to women finally braving to speak up about what has been happening to them and not trying to keep their secrets until death in order to not be exposed to be targeted or perceived as " less than" or weak. Women have been keeping these secrets for entirely too long and we are just beginning to come to the point where women feel they can talk about this, although there are still many more who have not reached that point yet due to the society we still live in. Hopefully this is the first step to changing that, though I still think it is unlikely to change anytime soon due to how prevalent this still in the US. I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen, that is for sure.

The US cannot manage to make the top ten nations for healthcare, least poverty or Happiness but Congrats! You are one of the most dangerous Countries for women! That is American exceptionalism for ya!

So, I find the whole thing a bit weird, because it seems like putting the US on the list is entirely a response to how experts perceived the risk of violence against women.. and that perception is very influenced by the visibility of allegations of violence.

You might have heard right wingers, for example, claim that Sweden is the "rape capital of the world" (generally in the context of arguing that migrants or refugees are carrying out some kind of rape apocalypse) but that is just outright categorically wrong, it's based on the fact that Sweden has a very comprehensive definition of rape and sexual violence, very robust reporting systems and a culture which encourages people to report sexual violence.

I mean, the murder rate in Brazil is incredible. 3 times as many people are murdered in Brazil each year than currently die in war in Syria. The rate of police killing is similarly ridiculously high (several times higher than the US, despite the population being smaller), and Brazilian police have a long history of literally forming "extermination squads" and going into the Favelas to shoot black people. I am prepared to go on record saying that there is definitely not more sexual violence in the USA than there is in Brazil, it's just that sexual violence in Brazil is invisible. Heck, if you want to talk about political indifference, the current president of Brazil makes Donald Trump look like Gloria Steinem, and once stated during a congressional debate that a female Federal deputy was "not worth raping" because she was too ugly.

And I'm not saying this in the spirit of "oh, violence against women isn't a real problem in the US", violence against women is a fucking plague upon this entire planet which is epidemic literally everywhere, but for precisely that reason I don't think the public visibility of accounts and discussion of sexual violence should count as a threat. The countries that actually terrify me are those which seem to have almost no violence against women at all, because every piece of experience I have had in my life tells me that what that actually means is that women are suffering in silence.

It does seem odd that the US would make top 10. Not because I don't think the US is doing great in this regards, but because there's a lot of countries and a number of them are failed states or warzones. From which people flee to places like the US to be safer.

From what I read, Sweden recently expanded their legal definition of rape to include a lot of extra things and that's why their numbers skyrocketed. It's not on the same kind of acts that'd qualify as rape in other countries. Similarly, some acts that may be rape may not qualify as such legally in some third world countries, which would lead them to seem as having less rape. These comparisons are kinda meaningless until we have a universal standard that we can compare countries to.

Also the sample of only 500something people polled is a little small.

Dreiko:

Also the sample of only 500something people polled is a little small.

The sample size is fine, that's probably a reasonable percentage of everyone who could claim to be an expert on violence against women globally. It's the methodology itself that's nonsense. First, it's an opinion poll, the plural of opinion isn't fact. I don't think there's an "expert" in the world who doesn't like taking cheap shots at America.

Thaluikhain:
It does seem odd that the US would make top 10. Not because I don't think the US is doing great in this regards, but because there's a lot of countries and a number of them are failed states or warzones. From which people flee to places like the US to be safer.

That is just it though, many of the women fleeing abuse in other nations only come to find more abuse once they get here. If they are lucky enough not to become human trafficking victims here, as is not uncommon for migrants due to how the traffickers target migrant communities, they are often forced to live in areas where they are still exposed to violence and abuse due to poverty and how predators find targets here. They flee one bad situation only to find another bad situation.

Violence against immigrant women is higher among immigrant women who are married to American spouses.
https://vawnet.org/sc/domestic-violence-immigrant-communities

https://www.aclu.org/other/human-trafficking-modern-enslavement-immigrant-women-united-states

https://www.futureswithoutviolence.org/userfiles/file/Children_and_Families/Immigrant.pdf

Dreiko:
From what I read, Sweden recently expanded their legal definition of rape to include a lot of extra things and that's why their numbers skyrocketed. It's not on the same kind of acts that'd qualify as rape in other countries.

They would still qualify as sexual violence in most other countries. The idea that Sweden criminalises a bunch of innocent and harmless stuff as rape is another common right wing myth.

Sweden's legal definition of rape is quite similar to that of Canada (actually, Germany is a better example now I think about it), in that it treats rape as a kind of "aggrevated sexual assault" rather than the very specific definition used in, say, the UK (in which rape is specifically defined as forcibly oral, anal or vaginally penetrating someone with a penis). If we're looking at sexual violence in general, however, this isn't going to make a difference.

Another major reason is that Sweden treats each separate instance of a crime as a distinct offence for reporting purposes. So, if a person is in an abusive relationship and they are sexually assaulted by their partner on 30 separate occasions, each of those offences counts as a separate report. In many countries, those would be grouped into a single report.

Lil devils x:
That is just it though, many of the women fleeing abuse in other nations only come to find more abuse once they get here. If they are lucky enough not to become human trafficking victims here, as is not uncommon for migrants due to how the traffickers target migrant communities, they are often forced to live in areas where they are still exposed to violence and abuse due to poverty and how predators find targets here. They flee one bad situation only to find another bad situation.

None of what you're saying is why the US is on this list. If you think this is a fair representation, you're suggesting that the US is less safe for women than every nation in Europe, every nation in Central and South America, and every nation in East Asia. Frankly, the poll overall is suspect, cause they went "a few years back we polled experts on the 5 most dangerous countries and shared the top 5 results. This year, we asked about the 5 most dangerous countries and shared the top 10 instead (guess who 10 is winky face)."

tstorm823:
I don't think there's an "expert" in the world who doesn't like taking cheap shots at America.

True that. Who needs experts with their "man made climate change" and "oblate spheroids".

tstorm823:

Lil devils x:
That is just it though, many of the women fleeing abuse in other nations only come to find more abuse once they get here. If they are lucky enough not to become human trafficking victims here, as is not uncommon for migrants due to how the traffickers target migrant communities, they are often forced to live in areas where they are still exposed to violence and abuse due to poverty and how predators find targets here. They flee one bad situation only to find another bad situation.

None of what you're saying is why the US is on this list. If you think this is a fair representation, you're suggesting that the US is less safe for women than every nation in Europe, every nation in Central and South America, and every nation in East Asia. Frankly, the poll overall is suspect, cause they went "a few years back we polled experts on the 5 most dangerous countries and shared the top 5 results. This year, we asked about the 5 most dangerous countries and shared the top 10 instead (guess who 10 is winky face)."

Yes, if you read the poll study, yes those are included in why the nations are on the list that are on the list. It is a combination of factors not just one or the other that put them on the list. This list only included members of the United Nations, not all nations and was ranked by who they thought were most dangerous for women and which country in terms of healthcare, economic resources, cultural or traditional practices, sexual violence and harassment, non-sexual violence and human trafficking. Of course each nation fares higher in some areas than others, but it is their total score that places them. Afghanistan, for example, scored worst in conflict related violence and healthcare but that does not mean they scored well in other areas. Being worst in one area doesn't mean that other areas are peachy keen.

Simply because you are annoyed they shared the top ten instead of five, does not mean they should not share the top ten, they really should share all the results rather than limit them. When you have many nations tie for spots, they really should expand the list at that point. It isn't like all 500+ experts were in agreement.

EDIT: I am sure the US having the worst maternal death rate in the developed world didn't help their score here even if it was not the worst on the list, it just adds to the score.

evilthecat:

tstorm823:
I don't think there's an "expert" in the world who doesn't like taking cheap shots at America.

True that. Who needs experts with their "man made climate change" and "oblate spheroids".

Fire all the scientists in the government and rely on "Alternative facts".

evilthecat:

Dreiko:
From what I read, Sweden recently expanded their legal definition of rape to include a lot of extra things and that's why their numbers skyrocketed. It's not on the same kind of acts that'd qualify as rape in other countries.

They would still qualify as sexual violence in most other countries. The idea that Sweden criminalises a bunch of innocent and harmless stuff as rape is another common right wing myth.

Sweden's legal definition of rape is quite similar to that of Canada, in that it treats rape as a kind of "aggrevated sexual assault" rather than the very specific definition used in, say, the UK (in which rape is specifically defined as forcibly oral, anal or vaginally penetrating someone with a penis). If we're looking at sexual violence in general, however, this isn't going to make a difference.

Another major reason is that Sweden treats each separate instance of a crime as a distinct offence for reporting purposes. So, if a person is in an abusive relationship and they are sexually assaulted by their partner on 30 separate occasions, each of those offences counts as a separate report. In many countries, those would be grouped into a single report.

It is like how some places did not originally consider it a sex crime unless there was penetration involved, but then later expanded to include some random guy jizzing on you on a bus or groping, touching or kissing you without permission as sexual crimes as well. Sadly not all those things are even crimes in some places let alone sexual crimes even now.

EDIT: For example, In France, this guy literally kissed this woman's breast after she told him she didn't want to be kissed by him repeatedly and all he did was apologize later for it like it is somehow fine to do this to women as long as you apologize for it or some BS.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/tv/guy-kisses-womans-boob-on-tv-after-she-said-no-twice/

Frequently, not only is sexual assault considered socially acceptable, it is often encouraged and seen as a game or a " bit of fun" regardless of what the woman has to say about having her person violated at the time. The guy should have been fired and arrested for putting his germ ridden mouth on her body without her consent, not just laughed off and say " oh I apologized later so it is okay!"
Why do so many men think they should be entitled to touch or kiss a woman against her will like it is some sort of game? I could not even begin to count the number of men who touched, groped or kissed me without my consent when I was bartending in college. To make it worse, employers expect women to just accept that it comes with the territory and not make a big deal out of it. I of course put up with it like everyone else I worked with, to an extent. There were guys who went much further who had to be dealt with or tossed, but those were far fewer than the MANY who actually touched me inappropriately while working.

Even in the US, crap like this is still not a big deal:
https://www.care2.com/causes/subway-grinding-is-a-serious-crime-new-york-must-take-action.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/louis-ck-masturbation-women_us_5a05c227e4b05673aa58f4ba

I honestly could not even begin to count the number of guys who have exposed themselves to me, or in front of me without my consent it has been so many. Yes, it really is that bad.

The USA is not the tenth most dangerous country for women. (What, ahead of Eritrea? North Korea? Crimea? Sudan? Liberia? Venezuela? Thailand? Get real.)

The inclusion in the list is down to wonky methodology. The USA did not rank in four of the six metrics used. The States ranked joint third worst for sexual violence and sixth for non-sexual violence, which is incomprehensible. The methodology used was based simply on opinion polling and we can probably conclude that the recent hyperawareness of sexual abuse and women's rights issues in the West skewed respondents perceptions to believe that the USA has a much bigger problem, relatively, than it actually has.

Batou667:
The USA is not the tenth most dangerous country for women. (What, ahead of Eritrea? North Korea? Crimea? Sudan? Liberia? Venezuela? Thailand? Get real.)

The inclusion in the list is down to wonky methodology. The USA did not rank in four of the six metrics used. The States ranked joint third worst for sexual violence and sixth for non-sexual violence, which is incomprehensible. The methodology used was based simply on opinion polling and we can probably conclude that the recent hyperawareness of sexual abuse and women's rights issues in the West skewed respondents perceptions to believe that the USA has a much bigger problem, relatively, than it actually has.

I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right? The opinion polling however was from experts in the field, not just random opinions like that of Batou667.
:p

I think if anything the US has a much larger problem than is generally perceived, rather than being misrepresented here.

How many women are touched without their consent on a daily basis in the US, at work, on the subway, in clubs, in school? The number is staggering, I assure you.

I added UN to the title to make sure no one misses it.

Lil devils x:

Fire all the scientists in the government and rely on "Alternative facts".

Alternative facts is a perfectly reasonable thing to have. If you don't think different sets of equally valid information can lead to different perspectives, you've never played Guess Who.

Lil devils x:

Yes, if you read the poll study, yes those are included in why the nations are on the list that are on the list. It is a combination of factors not just one or the other that put them on the list. This list only included members of the United Nations, not all nations and was ranked by who they thought were most dangerous for women and which country in terms of healthcare, economic resources, cultural or traditional practices, sexual violence and harassment, non-sexual violence and human trafficking. Of course each nation fares higher in some areas than others, but it is their total score that places them. Afghanistan, for example, scored worst in conflict related violence and healthcare but that does not mean they scored well in other areas. Being worst in one area doesn't mean that other areas are peachy keen.

Simply because you are annoyed they shared the top ten instead of five, does not mean they should not share the top ten, they really should share all the results rather than limit them. When you have many nations tie for spots, they really should expand the list at that point. It isn't like all 500+ experts were in agreement.

EDIT: I am sure the US having the worst maternal death rate in the developed world didn't help their score here even if it was not the worst on the list, it just adds to the score.

Your reasons aren't included in why anyone is on the list, because facts were not included in this study. It's just a sum of people's opinions. I agree they should share the whole ranking, because there'd almost certainly be something like Thailand near the bottom of the list that most people of these people just forgot about, and that would expose the problem with their methods.

Frankly, even the information we have is ridiculous. I can see some merit in people asked to list a top 5 and tossing in the US because sexual violence in the US is a very news relevant thing. But the specific questions on their 6 categories weren't asking for a ranked list, they were asking for number 1. The people were asked the following question:

"In your view, what is the most dangerous country in the world for women in terms of non-sexual violence? This includes conflict-related violence, domestic, physical and mental abuse."

And the 6th most common answer was the US. A statistically significant number of experts said the women in the US should fear non-sexual violence against them more than anywhere else in the world. That's not an honest answer. Anyone who says that isn't being honest. I know most (not all) of the nations currently going through wars ranked higher here than the US, but the US got 6th in that category because the 6th highest number of respondents named it most dangerous in that category. There are people, supposed experts, who asked that question, decided the United States is more dangerous in terms of non-sexual violence than Afghanistan, Syria, India, Yemen, and Pakistan (just to name the nations higher in that ranking). What turds.

Lil devils x:
I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right?

You're quite right. That additional criterion is buried halfway down the article after several misleading instances of "global" and "the world". It also means the most populous country on the planet, China, isn't included in the poll, which is a not inconsequential omission.

I'm sure there are plenty of serious womens issues in the States, I'm not trying to downplay that. What I'm saying is that there are many places in the world where women quite obviously have it even worse.

Put it this way; if you honestly believe the USA is the tenth worst country in the world UN member state for women to live in, why haven't you emigrated to Mexico yet?

tstorm823:

Lil devils x:

Fire all the scientists in the government and rely on "Alternative facts".

Alternative facts is a perfectly reasonable thing to have. If you don't think different sets of equally valid information can lead to different perspectives, you've never played Guess Who.

Lil devils x:

Yes, if you read the poll study, yes those are included in why the nations are on the list that are on the list. It is a combination of factors not just one or the other that put them on the list. This list only included members of the United Nations, not all nations and was ranked by who they thought were most dangerous for women and which country in terms of healthcare, economic resources, cultural or traditional practices, sexual violence and harassment, non-sexual violence and human trafficking. Of course each nation fares higher in some areas than others, but it is their total score that places them. Afghanistan, for example, scored worst in conflict related violence and healthcare but that does not mean they scored well in other areas. Being worst in one area doesn't mean that other areas are peachy keen.

Simply because you are annoyed they shared the top ten instead of five, does not mean they should not share the top ten, they really should share all the results rather than limit them. When you have many nations tie for spots, they really should expand the list at that point. It isn't like all 500+ experts were in agreement.

EDIT: I am sure the US having the worst maternal death rate in the developed world didn't help their score here even if it was not the worst on the list, it just adds to the score.

Your reasons aren't included in why anyone is on the list, because facts were not included in this study. It's just a sum of people's opinions. I agree they should share the whole ranking, because there'd almost certainly be something like Thailand near the bottom of the list that most people of these people just forgot about, and that would expose the problem with their methods.

Frankly, even the information we have is ridiculous. I can see some merit in people asked to list a top 5 and tossing in the US because sexual violence in the US is a very news relevant thing. But the specific questions on their 6 categories weren't asking for a ranked list, they were asking for number 1. The people were asked the following question:

"In your view, what is the most dangerous country in the world for women in terms of non-sexual violence? This includes conflict-related violence, domestic, physical and mental abuse."

And the 6th most common answer was the US. A statistically significant number of experts said the women in the US should fear non-sexual violence against them more than anywhere else in the world. That's not an honest answer. Anyone who says that isn't being honest. I know most (not all) of the nations currently going through wars ranked higher here than the US, but the US got 6th in that category because the 6th highest number of respondents named it most dangerous in that category. There are people, supposed experts, who asked that question, decided the United States is more dangerous in terms of non-sexual violence than Afghanistan, Syria, India, Yemen, and Pakistan (just to name the nations higher in that ranking). What turds.

"Alternative Facts" are not facts, they are made up nonsense and the opposite of facts. Lie=\= Fact no matter how you attempt to spin it.

The question about sexual violence was this:

In your view, what is the most dangerous country in the world for women in terms of sexual violence? This includes rape as a weapon of war, domestic rape, rape by a stranger, the lack of access to justice in rape cases, sexual harassment and coercion into sex as a form of corruption.

It is still extremely difficult to prosecute rape, sexual assault, stalking or harassment in the US and women are discouraged from reporting by the police themselves. It ranks high for a reason.

And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, violence against women in the US is also still extremely high, but like violence in most places, most people do not bother reporting it. Usually we only get numbers from anonymous surveys due to people not wanting to be targeted for bringing it up.

Yeah this is sensationalism for it's own sake and really doesn't help dispelling the notion that expert are charlatans. Maybe if they meant something like "most dangerous country if you take into account the development level of the nation and what you'd think the level should be" then mayyyyyyyybe you could take it seriously, if it made the top 50. But really, it's better to be a women in Pakistan than in the US? Where a women was almost decapitated because she drank the same water as muslim, that country is safer for women than the US?

Lil devils x:

"Alternative Facts" are not facts, they are made up nonsense and the opposite of facts. Lie=\= Fact no matter how you attempt to spin it.

The question about sexual violence was this:

In your view, what is the most dangerous country in the world for women in terms of sexual violence? This includes rape as a weapon of war, domestic rape, rape by a stranger, the lack of access to justice in rape cases, sexual harassment and coercion into sex as a form of corruption.

It is still extremely difficult to prosecute rape, sexual assault, stalking or harassment in the US and women are discouraged from reporting by the police themselves. It ranks high for a reason.

And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, violence against women in the US is also still extremely high, but like violence in most places, most people do not bother reporting it. Usually we only get numbers from anonymous surveys due to people not wanting to be targeted for bringing it up.

Complains that alternative facts are falsehoods... offers alternative facts immediately after. Interesting tactic.

Like, I pointed to a specific thing I found problematic, and then you came back with an entirely different thing. One could say your facts were alternative.

Batou667:

Lil devils x:
I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right?

You're quite right. That additional criterion is buried halfway down the article after several misleading instances of "global" and "the world". It also means the most populous country on the planet, China, isn't included in the poll, which is a not inconsequential omission.

I'm sure there are plenty of serious womens issues in the States, I'm not trying to downplay that. What I'm saying is that there are many places in the world where women quite obviously have it even worse.

Put it this way; if you honestly believe the USA is the tenth worst country in the world UN member state for women to live in, why haven't you emigrated to Mexico yet?

WHY on earth would I go to Mexico of all places when I could go to Finland, Netherlands, Sweden or many other better places for that matter?! Like trying to compare bad to bad as only options is somehow going to make the other look better? First of all, moving to another nation means leaving your family, friends and life you have built behind. Why not stay and try to make your own nation a better place instead of being forced to flee AGAIN. My family was already forced to flee the lands of my ancestors here due to a serial child rapist and abuse by the government mandated church school. I could go back if I chose to now, but I have made a life here. I wouldn't want to raise children here, especially girls, but since I had my tubes tied I don't have to worry about that unless I choose to have an egg placed in my womb. Instead of fleeing, however, I utilize my resources to help other's in need. Not only have I had to experience violence against me personally, I also see the violence inflicted upon these women and children daily. Our shelters are overcrowded with women being forced to sleep on clothes piles in the hallways for beds due to being overcapacity. This is no small problem we are dealing with here. Financially it would be impossible to remove all women from their abusive situations, there are simply too many.

Telling people to leave their country should never be the first thought to cross one's mind when dealing with problems, instead it should be " how do we stop this from happening so they and everyone else can live in peace without this in their lives?"

tstorm823:
Alternative facts is a perfectly reasonable thing to have.

If one were to totally ignore the what that phrase has come to mean recently, yes.

Even if one were somehow totally unaware of Alternative Facts, Lil devils x even put it in quote marks to draw attention to it.

tstorm823:

Lil devils x:

"Alternative Facts" are not facts, they are made up nonsense and the opposite of facts. Lie=\= Fact no matter how you attempt to spin it.

The question about sexual violence was this:

In your view, what is the most dangerous country in the world for women in terms of sexual violence? This includes rape as a weapon of war, domestic rape, rape by a stranger, the lack of access to justice in rape cases, sexual harassment and coercion into sex as a form of corruption.

It is still extremely difficult to prosecute rape, sexual assault, stalking or harassment in the US and women are discouraged from reporting by the police themselves. It ranks high for a reason.

And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, violence against women in the US is also still extremely high, but like violence in most places, most people do not bother reporting it. Usually we only get numbers from anonymous surveys due to people not wanting to be targeted for bringing it up.

Complains that alternative facts are falsehoods... offers alternative facts immediately after. Interesting tactic.

Like, I pointed to a specific thing I found problematic, and then you came back with an entirely different thing. One could say your facts were alternative.

No they are not alternative facts, they are " additional facts" you do not discount one fact simply because another exists you INCLUDE them. Facts do not negate one another, you include as many as possible to form an accurate opinion. Alternative =\= additional.

Batou667:

Lil devils x:
I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right?

You're quite right. That additional criterion is buried halfway down the article after several misleading instances of "global" and "the world". It also means the most populous country on the planet, China, isn't included in the poll, which is a not inconsequential omission.

I'm sure there are plenty of serious womens issues in the States, I'm not trying to downplay that. What I'm saying is that there are many places in the world where women quite obviously have it even worse.

Put it this way; if you honestly believe the USA is the tenth worst country in the world UN member state for women to live in, why haven't you emigrated to Mexico yet?

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

Also, Lil Devils posted right in the title of the thread that it was about UN nations. It's not her fault you missed something that was staring you right in the face.

Meiam:
Yeah this is sensationalism for it's own sake and really doesn't help dispelling the notion that expert are charlatans. Maybe if they meant something like "most dangerous country if you take into account the development level of the nation and what you'd think the level should be" then mayyyyyyyybe you could take it seriously, if it made the top 50. But really, it's better to be a women in Pakistan than in the US? Where a women was almost decapitated because she drank the same water as muslim, that country is safer for women than the US?

Oh please, anyone who takes the "experts are charlatans" appraoch is basically saying "the experts said something I didn't agree with, clearly I know better." IE, the same arrogant mindset that got us flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and global warming deniers.

And no. It's not saying the US is worse than Pakistan, Pakistan ranked higher. So. You clearly didn't read the fucking thing. Another thing in common with the "experts are charlatans" mindset. They don't actually read the facts, they just assume they're wrong. Also, "sensationalism for its own sake" yeah, there was a couple of paragraphs dedicated to the United States, and it was attributed to MeToo bringing a lot of dirty laundry out to air that had previously been hidden.

Why am I supposed to take your complaints about the article you didn't read seriously?

Meiam:
Yeah this is sensationalism for it's own sake and really doesn't help dispelling the notion that expert are charlatans. Maybe if they meant something like "most dangerous country if you take into account the development level of the nation and what you'd think the level should be" then mayyyyyyyybe you could take it seriously, if it made the top 50. But really, it's better to be a women in Pakistan than in the US? Where a women was almost decapitated because she drank the same water as muslim, that country is safer for women than the US?

Did you read the Poll? Pakistan was Ranked worse for women than the US. Pakistan was ranked 6 , the US was 10. Experts =\= charlatans. Promoting such is how we get people believing asinine things like homeopathic medicine and antivaxxing. It would help if you actually read the information.

expert
/ˈekˌspərt/Submit
noun
1.
a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area.

erttheking:

Batou667:

Lil devils x:
I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right?

You're quite right. That additional criterion is buried halfway down the article after several misleading instances of "global" and "the world". It also means the most populous country on the planet, China, isn't included in the poll, which is a not inconsequential omission.

I'm sure there are plenty of serious womens issues in the States, I'm not trying to downplay that. What I'm saying is that there are many places in the world where women quite obviously have it even worse.

Put it this way; if you honestly believe the USA is the tenth worst country in the world UN member state for women to live in, why haven't you emigrated to Mexico yet?

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

Also, Lil Devils posted right in the title of the thread that it was about UN nations. It's not her fault you missed something that was staring you right in the face.

Meiam:
Yeah this is sensationalism for it's own sake and really doesn't help dispelling the notion that expert are charlatans. Maybe if they meant something like "most dangerous country if you take into account the development level of the nation and what you'd think the level should be" then mayyyyyyyybe you could take it seriously, if it made the top 50. But really, it's better to be a women in Pakistan than in the US? Where a women was almost decapitated because she drank the same water as muslim, that country is safer for women than the US?

Oh please, anyone who takes the "experts are charlatans" appraoch is basically saying "the experts said something I didn't agree with, clearly I know better." IE, the same arrogant mindset that got us flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and global warming deniers.

And no. It's not saying the US is worse than Pakistan, Pakistan ranked higher. So. You clearly didn't read the fucking thing. Another thing in common with the "experts are charlatans" mindset. They don't actually read the facts, they just assume they're wrong. Also, "sensationalism for its own sake" yeah, there was a couple of paragraphs dedicated to the United States, and it was attributed to MeToo bringing a lot of dirty laundry out to air that had previously been hidden.

Why am I supposed to take your complaints about the article you didn't read seriously?

Actually, I added the UN to the title due to Batou's post earlier and informed them of it when I did so to make sure no one else missed it, although it was clearly in the link.

erttheking:

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

I'm making the point that even a cursory, commonsense examination of the issue should reveal that the USA is not a worse place for women than Mexico and South America.

Lil devils x:
Actually, I added the UN to the title due to Batou's post earlier and informed them of it when I did so to make sure no one else missed it

Thanks.

Batou667:

erttheking:

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

I'm making the point that even a cursory, commonsense examination of the issue should reveal that the USA is not a worse place for women than Mexico and South America.

I'm sorry, based on what issue? What statistics? What study? We need more than a general stereotype that Mexico is a crappy place to live (a stereotype that more than a few Mexicans I've seen online grow utterly sick of.) Nor the general sterotype that the US is a happy place to live. Devils herself has brought up on this forum a number of times the downright nightmarish way in which Native American women get treated, and I've seen more than a few horror stories about what can go on in Alaska to the native women there.

Also my apologies, I did not know that Lil Devils had not made her edit to the title after you had commented. I retract my comment there.

Batou667:

erttheking:

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

I'm making the point that even a cursory, commonsense examination of the issue should reveal that the USA is not a worse place for women than Mexico and South America.

Lil devils x:
Actually, I added the UN to the title due to Batou's post earlier and informed them of it when I did so to make sure no one else missed it

Thanks.

It is however, far worse than the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Australia, and many other nations IS the problem here. Saying "well, at least I do not live in the Congo" does not somehow make the US look better.

The reality is the US is one of the wealthiest nations on earth and STILL has these extremely severe issues because they are not addressing them adequately.

Lil devils x:

No they are not alternative facts, they are " additional facts" you do not discount one fact simply because another exists you INCLUDE them. Facts do not negate one another, you include as many as possible to form an accurate opinion. Alternative =\= additional.

Exactly. That's exactly it. That's what the phrase was intended to mean when it was said. "Alternative facts" the way you're using it is a propaganda phrase used to suppress the idea that different information adds value.

erttheking:

Batou667:

Lil devils x:
I wasn't aware North Korea was a UN member state. You did read that this was only UN member states right?

You're quite right. That additional criterion is buried halfway down the article after several misleading instances of "global" and "the world". It also means the most populous country on the planet, China, isn't included in the poll, which is a not inconsequential omission.

I'm sure there are plenty of serious womens issues in the States, I'm not trying to downplay that. What I'm saying is that there are many places in the world where women quite obviously have it even worse.

Put it this way; if you honestly believe the USA is the tenth worst country in the world UN member state for women to live in, why haven't you emigrated to Mexico yet?

Hm, yes. I'll take bad faith arguing for 800 Alex. What is Batou doing right now? Seriously, what you're doing is basically the same tactic used by that substitute teacher who told an 11-year-old to go back where he came from if he didn't like America, just less racist.

I like how this idea that "leave if you don't like it" should be a response at all rather than, " what can we do to resolve this so no one has to go through this?" being the first thought to come to mind. I don't understand why anyone would want people to have to endure such things at all instead of working together as a society to make these things better.

Most people seem to be more irritated that they thought this is a severe problem in the US than actually being irritated that these things are happening so much in the US in the first place and need to be addressed. Rather than wanting to help resolve the problem they want to attack the people bringing up how bad it is. You would think that it would be the abuse itself that would bother them more than the people trying to reduce it.

The mindset that it isn't a big deal here is what has allowed it to become so rampant in the first place.

tstorm823:

Lil devils x:

No they are not alternative facts, they are " additional facts" you do not discount one fact simply because another exists you INCLUDE them. Facts do not negate one another, you include as many as possible to form an accurate opinion. Alternative =\= additional.

Exactly. That's exactly it. That's what the phrase was intended to mean when it was said. "Alternative facts" the way you're using it is a propaganda phrase used to suppress the idea that different information adds value.

No it isn't being used that way at all. It is being used by those who disregard facts all together and make up nonsense they presented as facts but have no basis in reality. The way Kellyanne Conway actually used it was to disregard facts all together and make up nonsense that was not even remotely true. That is not using it to add additional facts, it is used to disregard facts. There is a huge difference between actual data and making up imaginary nonsense about who attended an inauguration. That is not " alternative facts" it is outright lying about the number of people standing there.

That in no way adds value, it exists to deceive.

I am surprised. Mexico didn't even made it into the list the year.

tstorm823:

Exactly. That's exactly it. That's what the phrase was intended to mean when it was said.

Kellyanne Conway used the phrase in defence of a demonstrable falsehood. There was no different information, or value added in that way. It was a lie.

Lil devils x:

Meiam:
Yeah this is sensationalism for it's own sake and really doesn't help dispelling the notion that expert are charlatans. Maybe if they meant something like "most dangerous country if you take into account the development level of the nation and what you'd think the level should be" then mayyyyyyyybe you could take it seriously, if it made the top 50. But really, it's better to be a women in Pakistan than in the US? Where a women was almost decapitated because she drank the same water as muslim, that country is safer for women than the US?

Did you read the Poll? Pakistan was Ranked worse for women than the US. Pakistan was ranked 6 , the US was 10. Experts =\= charlatans. Promoting such is how we get people believing asinine things like homeopathic medicine and antivaxxing. It would help if you actually read the information.

expert
/ˈekˌspərt/Submit
noun
1.
a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area.

From the article:

The only Western nation in the top 10 was the United States, which ranked joint third when respondents were asked where women were most at risk of sexual violence

Maybe read your own article... This is pathetic. Same for erttheking.

Lil devils x:

No it isn't being used that way at all. It is being used by those who disregard facts all together and make up nonsense they presented as facts but have no basis in reality. The way Kellyanne Conway actually used it was to disregard facts all together and make up nonsense that was not even remotely true. That is not using it to add additional facts, it is used to disregard facts. There is a huge difference between actual data and making up imaginary nonsense about who attended an inauguration. That is not " alternative facts" it is outright lying about the number of people standing there.

That in no way adds value, it exists to deceive.

But they didn't know the actual number of people standing there. Nobody knows the actual number of people standing there, nobody did a head count, we just estimate the best we can. The argument was "we have some pictures that really look like there were fewer people there" vs "we have metro rider numbers that look like more people were headed that way". And those metro numbers did turn out to be false, and they apologized when the real numbers came out and good crowd size estimates were published, but that wasn't the argument in the moment. It was "you're working off of incomplete and inconclusive data, we're working off of different incomplete and inconclusive data, that's why our assessments are different." It's not the deliberate ignorance of truth, there are just a lot of people excited at even the faintest suggestion of post-truth politics.

That event is "Trump team says something, gets called out, provides the source of their claim, source gets disproven, original claim is withdrawn." They screwed that one up, but nobody was suggesting mutually exclusive sets of facts.

Meiam:

From the article:

The only Western nation in the top 10 was the United States, which ranked joint third when respondents were asked where women were most at risk of sexual violence

Maybe read your own article... This is pathetic. Same for erttheking.

The source is here: http://poll2018.trust.org/

It has different rankings for different things. They have the US 10th overall, but tied for 3rd for specifically sexual violence. I agree it's a ridiculous source, but thy're referring to it correctly. Specifically sexual violence is the only metric the list Pakistan better than the US, and fwiw, that might be fair; I don't suspect women's problems in Pakistan to be based on more sexual harassment than the US.

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