Bernie Sanders begins his presidential campaign in Brooklyn.

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Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
My post was basically responding to seanchaidh and Sonmi in that topic. People want to pretend Hillary was bad, but all the evidence says otherwise. Stuff like this is the cost of helping to throw the election. Could either acknowledge that or repeat the mistakes of history, and I am tired of that.

Hillary was bad. Trump is bad too. I don't know why you keep making this error.

Would you rather get a paper cut, or cancer? I mean, they both are bad, but they are not equally bad. Ya know, a lot of cancer treatments have shitty side-effects. But hey, better than dying of cancer, or would you disagree?

I'm not going to call Hillary good just because there are politicians that are worse.

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Bernie is a Democrat, because Democrats share much of Bernie's views. So either Democrats are left-wing, or Bernie is not left-wing. Pick one.

Bernie is an independent that caucuses with the democrats and runs on the democratic ticket. In reality, he identifies as a democratic socialist, an ideology distinctly different than much of the modern democratic parties. And that shows in the differences between the policies he proposes and those proposed by someone supported by the establishment, like Harris, Booker, or Klobachuar (sp?).

So he is a liar?

A liar about what? Being a democratic socialist?

BreakfastMan:
A liar about what? Being a democratic socialist?

If I had to guess, I'd say Saelune is trying to imply that Sanders is being dishonest for running under the Democratic banner while not being himself a Democrat. Basically anti-Sanders right-wing pundit argument no.73.

Abomination:

I mean, the American tax system is a complete joke. There are so many exemptions and loopholes that I am surprised that the tax department can even afford to pay for itself.

That's bound to happen in a capitalist country. The government can't do everything, so it offers exemptions and loopholes as incentives for the rich to invest in and offer the services that the government can't. And those are the good faith exemptions (the ones created by lobbyists are their own can of worms).

To kill those loopholes we'd need to kill capitalism (and although I know people who are ok with that, I assume you don't).

Also as Baffle2 said: whatever the system, people with money find a way around it. Most of the taxes in the U.S. used to be promoted to tax the rich only; but they seldom stick, and end up sliding down to the middle-class and poor instead.

Sonmi:

Saelune:
Would you rather get a paper cut, or cancer? I mean, they both are bad, but they are not equally bad. Ya know, a lot of cancer treatments have shitty side-effects. But hey, better than dying of cancer, or would you disagree?

Pretty heartless of you to deem the operator of Obama's bloody foreign policy a mere "paper cut". I'm sure the Lybian men, women, and children living in the ruins of what was once one of Africa's most prosperous country would be glad to know that you aren't even willing to recognize a necessary evil as being evil at all.

But then again, it's not really rare for American exceptionalists to completely blind themselves to the inhuman plight that they make those brown people in that country they can't point on a map suffer, it's one of the main reason why there's so much antagonism towards you anywhere you look in the world.

I mean hey, good job. You guys are almost making me root for Bernie to win, just so I can go 'I told you so' when he does all these things Obama did too, OR screws up worse cause he stuck to his beliefs to the point of screwing himself over. But I guess even I rooted for Ned Stark, despite his failings.

Sonmi:

BreakfastMan:
A liar about what? Being a democratic socialist?

If I had to guess, I'd say Saelune is trying to imply that Sanders is being dishonest for running under the Democratic banner while not being himself a Democrat. Basically anti-Sanders right-wing pundit argument no.73.

I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

Saelune:
I mean hey, good job. You guys are almost making me root for Bernie to win, just so I can go 'I told you so' when he does all these things Obama did too, OR screws up worse cause he stuck to his beliefs to the point of screwing himself over. But I guess even I rooted for Ned Stark, despite his failings.

It is pretty sad that, in your eyes, the best president we can hope for in your mind is the president who instituted a right-wing healthcare law when he had the power to create universal healthcare, bailed out the big banks during a recession over the workers, and bombed the shit out of foreign countries. Forgive me if I believe we can do better than that.

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
I mean hey, good job. You guys are almost making me root for Bernie to win, just so I can go 'I told you so' when he does all these things Obama did too, OR screws up worse cause he stuck to his beliefs to the point of screwing himself over. But I guess even I rooted for Ned Stark, despite his failings.

It is pretty sad that, in your eyes, the best president we can hope for in your mind is the president who instituted a right-wing healthcare law when he had the power to create universal healthcare, bailed out the big banks during a recession over the workers, and bombed the shit out of foreign countries. Forgive me if I believe we can do better than that.

You pushed for 'All or nothing' and got nothing. That is not a win.

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
I mean hey, good job. You guys are almost making me root for Bernie to win, just so I can go 'I told you so' when he does all these things Obama did too, OR screws up worse cause he stuck to his beliefs to the point of screwing himself over. But I guess even I rooted for Ned Stark, despite his failings.

It is pretty sad that, in your eyes, the best president we can hope for in your mind is the president who instituted a right-wing healthcare law when he had the power to create universal healthcare, bailed out the big banks during a recession over the workers, and bombed the shit out of foreign countries. Forgive me if I believe we can do better than that.

You pushed for 'All or nothing' and got nothing. That is not a win.

Donald Trump is insufficient. Hillary Clinton is insufficient. Centrists in general are insufficient. A viable way forward wasn't on the ballot. Perhaps we can do better next time. You're not really helping with that. At all.

In lieu of changing anyone's mind, can we at least all agree that, should Sanders become the Democratic candidate we should all hope he wins against Trump (or possibly Pence)?

Thaluikhain:
In lieu of changing anyone's mind, can we at least all agree that, should Sanders become the Democratic candidate we should all hope he wins against Trump (or possibly Pence)?

America has not had a President that lost his mid-term re-election since George Bush Sr.

I wonder if people prefer having 8 years of stability then 4 years of changing hands.

Samtemdo8:
America has not had a President that lost his mid-term re-election since George Bush Sr.

That is certainly true, but then again, the US didn't have a black man as President until about 10 years ago, nor a female VP candidate. Didn't have a female presidential candidate until about 2 years ago, nor, well, Trump.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

It is pretty sad that, in your eyes, the best president we can hope for in your mind is the president who instituted a right-wing healthcare law when he had the power to create universal healthcare, bailed out the big banks during a recession over the workers, and bombed the shit out of foreign countries. Forgive me if I believe we can do better than that.

You pushed for 'All or nothing' and got nothing. That is not a win.

Donald Trump is insufficient. Hillary Clinton is insufficient. Centrists in general are insufficient. A viable way forward wasn't on the ballot. Perhaps we can do better next time. You're not really helping with that. At all.

Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

Samtemdo8:

Thaluikhain:
In lieu of changing anyone's mind, can we at least all agree that, should Sanders become the Democratic candidate we should all hope he wins against Trump (or possibly Pence)?

America has not had a President that lost his mid-term re-election since George Bush Sr.

I wonder if people prefer having 8 years of stability then 4 years of changing hands.

Trump turned Alabama blue.

Thaluikhain:

Samtemdo8:
America has not had a President that lost his mid-term re-election since George Bush Sr.

That is certainly true, but then again, the US didn't have a black man as President until about 10 years ago.

Fuck....its already been 10 years.

Saelune:

Sonmi:

BreakfastMan:
A liar about what? Being a democratic socialist?

If I had to guess, I'd say Saelune is trying to imply that Sanders is being dishonest for running under the Democratic banner while not being himself a Democrat. Basically anti-Sanders right-wing pundit argument no.73.

I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

By any meaningful universal standards, Obama and Clinton aren't left-wing. They're incrementalist pragmatists at very best.

Sonmi:

Saelune:

Sonmi:

If I had to guess, I'd say Saelune is trying to imply that Sanders is being dishonest for running under the Democratic banner while not being himself a Democrat. Basically anti-Sanders right-wing pundit argument no.73.

I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

By any meaningful universal standards, Obama and Clinton aren't left-wing. They're incrementalist pragmatists at very best.

There are no true Scotsmen left to man, clearly.

Khellendrosiic:
There are no true Scotsmen left to man, clearly.

Don't know if it's "No True Scotsman" fallacy when the criteria is "by comparison" to other nations political behaviors and leanings.

It is not that the Democrats do not enact some Left-leaning policy, but as long as they remain in the pockets of their campaign doners, they are operating under a right-leaning manifesto. In order to be the "left" party of the US they just need to be "less right" than the Republicans - which is not a difficult task.

Sonmi:

Saelune:

Sonmi:

If I had to guess, I'd say Saelune is trying to imply that Sanders is being dishonest for running under the Democratic banner while not being himself a Democrat. Basically anti-Sanders right-wing pundit argument no.73.

I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

By any meaningful universal standards, Obama and Clinton aren't left-wing. They're incrementalist pragmatists at very best.

Being pragmatic is a reasonable thing to be. You seem to be using it as a negative which reminds me of how right-wingers like to use intellectual as a negative.

Saelune:

Sonmi:

Saelune:
I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

By any meaningful universal standards, Obama and Clinton aren't left-wing. They're incrementalist pragmatists at very best.

Being pragmatic is a reasonable thing to be. You seem to be using it as a negative which reminds me of how right-wingers like to use intellectual as a negative.

The problem is that their brand of pragmatism isn't actually pragmatic. The change we need requires addressing some deep structural issues and upsetting some very powerful forces. Real pragmatism is fighting on those terms, not trying to avoid a fight entirely.

I mean, is it pragmatic to let the world cook? No, it's not. "Pragmatism" of the sort favored by Clinton or Obama is utterly inadequate and inadequate means a cataclysmic level of human suffering.

Saelune:

Sonmi:

Saelune:
I'd take you more seriously if you stopped doing this BS. No really. Its one thing to go 'Obama and Hillary are not left-wing enough' but you're going overboard. And thus I find it easy to dismiss it.

By any meaningful universal standards, Obama and Clinton aren't left-wing. They're incrementalist pragmatists at very best.

Being pragmatic is a reasonable thing to be. You seem to be using it as a negative which reminds me of how right-wingers like to use intellectual as a negative.

The "Progressive" part of their agenda is what I describe as being pragmatic, not the right-wing part. They throw a bone to the electorate here and there to differentiate themselves, even if marginally, from their Republican opponents.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
You pushed for 'All or nothing' and got nothing. That is not a win.

Donald Trump is insufficient. Hillary Clinton is insufficient. Centrists in general are insufficient. A viable way forward wasn't on the ballot. Perhaps we can do better next time. You're not really helping with that. At all.

Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Donald Trump is insufficient. Hillary Clinton is insufficient. Centrists in general are insufficient. A viable way forward wasn't on the ballot. Perhaps we can do better next time. You're not really helping with that. At all.

Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

You realize you're using a right-wing argument here, right? Like, Seanchaidh and Sonmi are arguing Obama isn't left-wing enough, but you're now saying he was too left-wing for ya know, trying to impose some form of socialism.

No, Obamacare was not an instant solution to every problem, but the idea was for it to form a base to build a more truly socialist healthcare system. But that requires tearing down the Capitalist healthcare system currently in place. Forcing insurance companies to accept everyone was a good first step that Trump shat on.

Know what else didnt work for everyone? The previous system, and Trump's presidency. So if 'not working out for everyone' is your bar, then nothing will be sufficient.

But hey, being realistic and pragmatic is apparently a flaw to some people.

Khellendrosiic:
There are no true Scotsmen left to man, clearly.

And here I thought this thread was going nowhere, but that was a pretty good pun.

Saelune:

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:
Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

You realize you're using a right-wing argument here, right? Like, Seanchaidh and Sonmi are arguing Obama isn't left-wing enough, but you're now saying he was too left-wing for ya know, trying to impose some form of socialism.

No, Obamacare was not an instant solution to every problem, but the idea was for it to form a base to build a more truly socialist healthcare system. But that requires tearing down the Capitalist healthcare system currently in place. Forcing insurance companies to accept everyone was a good first step that Trump shat on.

Know what else didnt work for everyone? The previous system, and Trump's presidency. So if 'not working out for everyone' is your bar, then nothing will be sufficient.

But hey, being realistic and pragmatic is apparently a flaw to some people.

'Tis a very loose idea of socialism you're using there; more accurately, medicare for all would be a socialistic program because it eliminates very much or potentially all of the private health insurance industry. All health insurance plans under the ACA are privately owned-- no public option-- and it's not like those insurance companies have to be worker co-ops or anything. Medicare for all would be good for all patients; the ACA leaves out people, makes some things worse for others.

Saelune:

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:
Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

You realize you're using a right-wing argument here, right? Like, Seanchaidh and Sonmi are arguing Obama isn't left-wing enough, but you're now saying he was too left-wing for ya know, trying to impose some form of socialism.

No, Obamacare was not an instant solution to every problem, but the idea was for it to form a base to build a more truly socialist healthcare system. But that requires tearing down the Capitalist healthcare system currently in place. Forcing insurance companies to accept everyone was a good first step that Trump shat on.

Know what else didnt work for everyone? The previous system, and Trump's presidency. So if 'not working out for everyone' is your bar, then nothing will be sufficient.

But hey, being realistic and pragmatic is apparently a flaw to some people.

Why do you keep saying perfect? Nobody is saying they want perfect or Bernie is perfect. They're saying liberal. Which Obama isn't.

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Donald Trump is insufficient. Hillary Clinton is insufficient. Centrists in general are insufficient. A viable way forward wasn't on the ballot. Perhaps we can do better next time. You're not really helping with that. At all.

Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

...and mine the cost went down by about a grand a year, but my coverage is dramatically worse and the in network doctor list is an outright lie (my fianc? is on the same marketplace plan and has twice had to find new doctors because one of her "in network" doctors really wasn't, one co-worker found out the meds for his daughter actually weren't on the formulary, and another can't get his baby the care he needs because the closest hospital that will do it doesn't take the insurance - welcome to Obamacare). Previously I had insurance from my employer, but we let a couple of people go which got us officially under the magic number to be a "small business" and drop it entirely. When we still had it, it was our second largest expense after wages, and had gone up substantially every year since the ACA hit.

Schadrach:

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:
Obama saved my family $10,000 with his 'right-wing healthcare'. You're not helping at all.

Thanks Obama.

My family's healthcare costs went up by more than $3000 per year, so your family got a savings at the cost of other people's families. It's nice that it helped you, but it really didn't help everyone.

There were parts of Obamacare that were great, like removing the ability for insurance companies to deny coverage to people with per-existing conditions, but lets not pretend that Obamacare worked out great for everyone, because it didn't.

...and mine the cost went down by about a grand a year, but my coverage is dramatically worse and the in network doctor list is an outright lie (my fianc? is on the same marketplace plan and has twice had to find new doctors because one of her "in network" doctors really wasn't, one co-worker found out the meds for his daughter actually weren't on the formulary, and another can't get his baby the care he needs because the closest hospital that will do it doesn't take the insurance - welcome to Obamacare). Previously I had insurance from my employer, but we let a couple of people go which got us officially under the magic number to be a "small business" and drop it entirely. When we still had it, it was our second largest expense after wages, and had gone up substantially every year since the ACA hit.

Overly complicated means-tested or otherwise targeted bullshit will do things like this. The answer is universal programs, but that would mean a lot less profit to be made by being an unnecessary middle man between provider and consumer.

Saelune:
You realize you're using a right-wing argument here, right? Like, Seanchaidh and Sonmi are arguing Obama isn't left-wing enough, but you're now saying he was too left-wing for ya know, trying to impose some form of socialism.

Excuse me? But did you just call the ACA "socialist"?

image

You should seriously stop regurgitating FOX News talking points, Saelune. No one thinks that Romneycare was socialist except Murdoch-brainwashed tools.

I too am a fan of socialist politicians like Newt Gingrich.

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
I mean hey, good job. You guys are almost making me root for Bernie to win, just so I can go 'I told you so' when he does all these things Obama did too, OR screws up worse cause he stuck to his beliefs to the point of screwing himself over. But I guess even I rooted for Ned Stark, despite his failings.

It is pretty sad that, in your eyes, the best president we can hope for in your mind is the president who instituted a right-wing healthcare law when he had the power to create universal healthcare, bailed out the big banks during a recession over the workers, and bombed the shit out of foreign countries. Forgive me if I believe we can do better than that.

You pushed for 'All or nothing' and got nothing. That is not a win.

Of course we should push for "all". The republicans do, and guess what? They are getting whatever they want.

Saelune:

No, Obamacare was not an instant solution to every problem, but the idea was for it to form a base to build a more truly socialist healthcare system. But that requires tearing down the Capitalist healthcare system currently in place. Forcing insurance companies to accept everyone was a good first step that Trump shat on.

You do realize that Obamacare was created by a right-wing think-tank in the 90's, right?

And also, it doesn't hurt insurance companies to have more customers. That was the selling point to them.

BreakfastMan:
Of course we should push for "all". The republicans do, and guess what? They are getting whatever they want.

Under serving your base in the name of "compromise" with the Republicans has never, ever worked. I don't get why people like Saelune can't comprehend such a basic reality.

Sonmi:

BreakfastMan:
Of course we should push for "all". The republicans do, and guess what? They are getting whatever they want.

Under serving your base in the name of "compromise" with the Republicans has never, ever worked. I don't get why people like Saelune can't comprehend such a basic reality.

Oh come on, Saelune isn't advocating the Democrats try compromising with the GOP.

Thaluikhain:

Sonmi:

BreakfastMan:
Of course we should push for "all". The republicans do, and guess what? They are getting whatever they want.

Under serving your base in the name of "compromise" with the Republicans has never, ever worked. I don't get why people like Saelune can't comprehend such a basic reality.

Oh come on, Saelune isn't advocating the Democrats try compromising with the GOP.

Should there be a way to report when an Escapist member is being gaslighted? Seriously, if there is any member that has ditched compromise as a working tactic after 2016 is Saelune.

Thaluikhain:

Sonmi:

BreakfastMan:
Of course we should push for "all". The republicans do, and guess what? They are getting whatever they want.

Under serving your base in the name of "compromise" with the Republicans has never, ever worked. I don't get why people like Saelune can't comprehend such a basic reality.

Oh come on, Saelune isn't advocating the Democrats try compromising with the GOP.

I don't think she is either, at least not intentionally, but I seriously don't see where else her train of thought can lead her.

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