Official Special Investigation Into Trump Thread

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ObsidianJones:

Meiam:
So there's noise that Rob Rosentein, the #2 at the DOJ and person in charge of the Mueller investigation might be getting fired soon. This could be pretty big as it would be Saturday massacre all over again.

The amount of shit that could happen over this is substantial.

The firing of the man who denied such allegations will only be seen by Trump's opponents as Infantile Behavior that we should be wary of at best, and his newest attempt of obstruction of Justice at worst.

The only winning move for Trump is to do nothing. Anyone want to take bets* if he does or not?

*No real gambling, as I don't believe in it. Don't have the luck for it.

Interestingly enough, conservatives are really really fucking nervous about what Trump will do in response. Sean Hannity of all people practically begged the president to not do anything in response.

Well apparently they're going to meet about it on Thursday (which happens to be the day that Ford gives her testimony on Kavanaught), so I guess stay tuned. Seems like they were hoping Rosentein was going to resign and he said no so now they'll need to fire him.

Meiam:
So there's noise that Rob Rosentein, the #2 at the DOJ and person in charge of the Mueller investigation might be getting fired soon. This could be pretty big as it would be Saturday massacre all over again.

Based on what's reported in the WSJ, "might" might not be on the table any more.

"The White House announced the meeting Monday after a morning of confusion and mixed signals. While people close to Mr. Rosenstein told reporters he expected to be fired imminently, White House chief of staff John Kelly told officials in the West Wing that Mr. Rosenstein had already resigned, a White House official said."

Now call me a cynic, but that sounds an awful lot like Kelly jumped the gun and related the official "he wasn't fired, he resigned" spin before Rosenstein was actually let go.

Trump might fire him tomorrow to distract from Kavanaugh hearing. He's certainly dumb enough to shoot himself in the foot like that.

Asita:

Meiam:
So there's noise that Rob Rosentein, the #2 at the DOJ and person in charge of the Mueller investigation might be getting fired soon. This could be pretty big as it would be Saturday massacre all over again.

Based on what's reported in the WSJ, "might" might not be on the table any more.

The only real question is whether Rosenstein's firing would trigger impeachment proceedings or not. In the current environment, I do not think it will. For Republicans to back articles of impeachment against their own president just weeks out from the midterms would be devastating to their voter turnout. Half the party would find itself out of a job.

bastardofmelbourne:
The only real question is whether Rosenstein's firing would trigger impeachment proceedings or not. In the current environment, I do not think it will. For Republicans to back articles of impeachment against their own president just weeks out from the midterms would be devastating to their voter turnout. Half the party would find itself out of a job.

Actually, I think that leads to another question.

If Rod Rosenstein is fired or "Decided to leave" even though he's denied the allegations and continued on with his job, What will the American Public think of this? Or more over, what will everyone but the Cult think of this? Progressives, Corporate Democrats, Independents, Moderate Republicans. This will have to weigh on everyone come the midterm elections.

bastardofmelbourne:

Asita:

Meiam:
So there's noise that Rob Rosentein, the #2 at the DOJ and person in charge of the Mueller investigation might be getting fired soon. This could be pretty big as it would be Saturday massacre all over again.

Based on what's reported in the WSJ, "might" might not be on the table any more.

The only real question is whether Rosenstein's firing would trigger impeachment proceedings or not. In the current environment, I do not think it will. For Republicans to back articles of impeachment against their own president just weeks out from the midterms would be devastating to their voter turnout. Half the party would find itself out of a job.

The only way they will ever impeach Trump is if he suddenly became competent.

Important news for anyone who takes issue with Saudi Arabia's foreign and domestic policy and who was expecting Donald Trump to shake it up: they are literally just paying him off.

The Washington Post obtained a letter from the general manager of the Trump International Hotel in Manhattan that gave investors good news: after two years of declining revenue, the company's profits shot up 13% in the first three months of 2018.

Why? Because the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, who is under scrutiny for having potentially ordered the assassination of a Saudi-American journalist, booked a number of suites for five days in March. The revenue from those suites alone was enough to push the hotel's quarterly revenue back into the black.

The kicker? He didn't even stay there. The Trump International's suites were apparently too small for the Saudi prince, so he and his entourage stayed at a different hotel - but still paid Donald Trump a massive sum of money in exchange for the empty rooms.

When Trump took office and it became clear he wouldn't divest himself of his businesses, the concern was that he might violate the emoluments clause by charging specific visitors exorbitant prices - a hundred thousand dollars for a bag of peanuts, for example - to cover up what was actually intended as a $100,000 bribe. The Saudis weren't quite that obvious - and indeed, no-one would have known about this if the letter had not been leaked - but they still funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars into Donald Trump's hotel for services that they weren't actually using.

And by some amazing coincidence, Trump's response to the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi - the New York Times say they have obtained the audio - has been about as forceful as a slap from someone with cerebral palsy. He's repeatedly questioned whether the assassination occurred, whether it was intentional, or whether the Saudis even had anything to do with a Saudi-America journalist critical of the Saudi regime being murdered in a Saudi embassy. Sanctions, according to him, are off the table - it's much more important to sell a ton of guns to fundamentalist Muslim theocrats.

When are the Trump voters who care about draining the swamp going to realise that they've elected a swamp monster to the presidency?

bastardofmelbourne:
Important news for anyone who takes issue with Saudi Arabia's foreign and domestic policy and who was expecting Donald Trump to shake it up:

I doubt anyone expected him to, honestly. He's been groveling before Russia, Israel and Saudi Arabia since well before he was elected

bastardofmelbourne:
Important news for anyone who takes issue with Saudi Arabia's foreign and domestic policy and who was expecting Donald Trump to shake it up: they are literally just paying him off.

The Washington Post obtained a letter from the general manager of the Trump International Hotel in Manhattan that gave investors good news: after two years of declining revenue, the company's profits shot up 13% in the first three months of 2018.

Why? Because the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, who is under scrutiny for having potentially ordered the assassination of a Saudi-American journalist, booked a number of suites for five days in March. The revenue from those suites alone was enough to push the hotel's quarterly revenue back into the black.

The kicker? He didn't even stay there. The Trump International's suites were apparently too small for the Saudi prince, so he and his entourage stayed at a different hotel - but still paid Donald Trump a massive sum of money in exchange for the empty rooms.

When Trump took office and it became clear he wouldn't divest himself of his businesses, the concern was that he might violate the emoluments clause by charging specific visitors exorbitant prices - a hundred thousand dollars for a bag of peanuts, for example - to cover up what was actually intended as a $100,000 bribe. The Saudis weren't quite that obvious - and indeed, no-one would have known about this if the letter had not been leaked - but they still funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars into Donald Trump's hotel for services that they weren't actually using.

And by some amazing coincidence, Trump's response to the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi - the New York Times say they have obtained the audio - has been about as forceful as a slap from someone with cerebral palsy. He's repeatedly questioned whether the assassination occurred, whether it was intentional, or whether the Saudis even had anything to do with a Saudi-America journalist critical of the Saudi regime being murdered in a Saudi embassy. Sanctions, according to him, are off the table - it's much more important to sell a ton of guns to fundamentalist Muslim theocrats.

When are the Trump voters who care about draining the swamp going to realise that they've elected a swamp monster to the presidency?

Trump clearly is trying to create a Legion of Doom with himself, Neo Nazis, Russia, China, North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

PsychedelicDiamond:

bastardofmelbourne:
Important news for anyone who takes issue with Saudi Arabia's foreign and domestic policy and who was expecting Donald Trump to shake it up:

I doubt anyone expected him to, honestly. He's been groveling before Russia, Israel and Saudi Arabia since well before he was elected

Yeah, but he's now actively engaging in a murder coverup.

bastardofmelbourne:
When are the Trump voters who care about draining the swamp going to realise that they've elected a swamp monster to the presidency?

Never. They're not his supporters as much as they're a bunch of brainless cultists.

Adam Jensen:
Yeah, but he's now actively engaging in a murder coverup.

So much more gauche than condoning genocide.

Moron-in-chief is losing his shit on Twitter again. Historically he's been known to do that right before indictments. And some of his allies and even his own son have been expecting indictments. Tomorrow is Friday, so...

Adam Jensen:
Moron-in-chief is losing his shit on Twitter again. Historically he's been known to do that right before indictments.

Historically he's been known to lose his shit regardless.
Call me when something actually happens.

Dr. Thrax:

Adam Jensen:
Moron-in-chief is losing his shit on Twitter again. Historically he's been known to do that right before indictments.

Historically he's been known to lose his shit regardless.
Call me when something actually happens.

well Michael Cohen just plead guilty to additional charges regarding lying to Congress about a Trump tower real estate deal in moscow

Timing is important here. All this stuff is happening right after Trump submitted his written answers to SCO. The collapse of Manafort's plea deal is a part of it. That's why Trump's been raging lately. Mueller just sent Trump a message that he knows that Trump lied to him. More than that, he caught him red-handed in a criminal conspiracy.

Ok so, Trump has cancelled a meeting with Putin due to recent events and uh...I have to ask, how often has Trump met with Putin compared to Obama? Like, I get that world leaders need to meet often, and US and Russia are big players but seriously.

Trump quickly beat Obama on golf-trips, even though Trump criticized Obama for how often he went golfing...

Saelune:
Ok so, Trump has cancelled a meeting with Putin due to recent events and uh...I have to ask, how often has Trump met with Putin compared to Obama? Like, I get that world leaders need to meet often, and US and Russia are big players but seriously.

Trump quickly beat Obama on golf-trips, even though Trump criticized Obama for how often he went golfing...

I'm only aware of one meeting between Obama and Putin, I think? At the 2016 G20 summit didn't they chat and that was a thing?
I'm not sure how many times Trump's met Putin, again at least one with what, two cancelled meetings? Although didn't Trump somewhat break tradition by meeting Putin alone?

TrulyBritish:

Saelune:
Ok so, Trump has cancelled a meeting with Putin due to recent events and uh...I have to ask, how often has Trump met with Putin compared to Obama? Like, I get that world leaders need to meet often, and US and Russia are big players but seriously.

Trump quickly beat Obama on golf-trips, even though Trump criticized Obama for how often he went golfing...

I'm only aware of one meeting between Obama and Putin, I think? At the 2016 G20 summit didn't they chat and that was a thing?
I'm not sure how many times Trump's met Putin, again at least one with what, two cancelled meetings? Although didn't Trump somewhat break tradition by meeting Putin alone?

It's complicated.

Basically: it's routine for heads of state to interact with other heads of state in a group setting, with various translators, advisers, record-keepers and hangers-on present. Obama met Putin several times in this kind of setting.

A one-on-one meeting, where it was just Obama and his entourage meeting with Putin and his entourage, happened only once, in 2016 at the G20. This was when Obama apparently spoke to Putin directly and confronted him about the DNC hacks, telling him to "knock it off."

The kind of visit that Trump did in Helsinki - where it was just Trump, Putin, and their respective translators in the room - has never happened before. The problem with the Helsinki summit is that there is absolutely no record of what Trump and Putin talked about. Aside from Trump, the only other American in the room was Trump's translator. No-one has any real idea of what was said, and neither Trump nor Putin can be considered trustworthy enough to rely on their account of the discussion. It was astonishingly improper, not to mention incredibly suspicious.

If Obama had held a meeting of that kind, absent any other context, there would have been gossiping and speculation and suspicion of hushed-up backroom deals and Republicans banging their fists on the tables of Congress demanding a full transcript. For Trump to arrange such a meeting whilst being investigating for potentially conspiring with Russia to get their help in winning the 2016 election is, to put it mildly, completely fucking insane. Naturally, he has gotten away with it.

bastardofmelbourne:
Naturally, he has gotten away with it.

Shocking.

-_________-

Seanchaidh:

bastardofmelbourne:
Naturally, he has gotten away with it.

Shocking.

-_________-

When did you start caring? You've made it very clear that you consider even mentioning Trump and Russia in the same sentence to be some bourgeois conspiracy to put Clinton in the White House by The Establishment.

Ooh, ooh, oh god please yes...

But a flurry of recent activity this past week all points in the same direction: Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation will likely implicate the president, his campaign, and his close associates in aiding and abetting a Russian conspiracy against the United States to undermine the 2016 election.

First, Mueller has clearly identified collusion in the efforts of top Trump aides and associates to contact WikiLeaks. In a draft plea agreement provided to conservative operative Jerome Corsi, Mueller details how Roger Stone, who the special counsel notes was in frequent contact with Donald Trump and senior campaign officials, directed Corsi to connect with WikiLeaks about the trove of stolen materials it received from Russia. Corsi subsequently communicated WikiLeak?s release plan back to Stone, and the Trump campaign built its final message around the email release. That is collusion.
Second, we now know that Trump?s personal lawyer Michael Cohen and former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn have provided evidence to Mueller related to collusion. In Cohen?s sentencing memo, Mueller said that Cohen provided his office with ?useful information? on ?Russia-related matters core to its investigation.? The core of Mueller?s investigation is collusion. In Flynn?s sentencing memo Mueller said that Flynn?s false statements to the FBI about his calls with the Russian ambassador during the transition were ?material? to the investigation into links or coordination between Russia and ?individuals associated with the Trump campaign.?

Third, Mueller has found definitive proof that Trump was compromised by a hostile foreign power during the election. In his plea deal, Cohen revealed that Trump had repeatedly lied to voters about the then-candidate?s financial ties Russia. While Trump claimed during the campaign to have no business dealings with Russia, he was negotiating a wildly lucrative business deal not with Russian businessmen, but with the Kremlin itself. Trump?s team even reportedly tried to bribe Russian President Vladimir Putin by offering him a $50 million penthouse.

Worse, Russia not only knew that Trump was lying, but when investigators first started looking into this deal, the Kremlin helped Trump cover up what really happened. That made Trump doubly compromised: first, because he was eager to get the financial payout and second because Russia had evidence he was lying to the American people?evidence they could have held over Trump by threatening to reveal at any time.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/mueller-is-telling-us-hes-got-trump-on-collusion?ref=scroll

I think this is best write-up so far about what went down Friday with the court filings for Cohen's sentencing from both the Special Counsel office and the Southern District of New York (SDNY). Not only do the filings implicate Trump in a felony for breaking campaign finance laws, but more importantly, it ties Trump to the collusion component of the investigation.

https://www.justsecurity.org/61785/muellers-roadmap-major-takeaways-cohen-manafort-filings/

Avnger:

Seanchaidh:

bastardofmelbourne:
Naturally, he has gotten away with it.

Shocking.

-_________-

When did you start caring? You've made it very clear that you consider even mentioning Trump and Russia in the same sentence to be some bourgeois conspiracy to put Clinton in the White House by The Establishment.

I consider any fixation on the attempt to replace Trump with Pence (or, more hypothetically, any of the Clintons) to be a distraction from much larger issues facing this country, yes.

Seanchaidh:
I consider any fixation on the attempt to replace Trump with Pence (or, more hypothetically, any of the Clintons) to be a distraction from much larger issues facing this country, yes.

It's less about replacing Trump with Pence and more about getting rid of Trump as soon as possible, because he's the worst conceivable person for the job and every week he breaks some new norm of democratic governance based on his impulse. And while I don't think Trump is competent enough to ever turn the US into an autocracy, every time he does something that no president has ever done before (in a bad way) he sets a precedent for future presidents to follow.

President Pence is just the unfortunate side-effect of removing Trump from the office. He's just as bad as Trump in a lot of ways, but he's less likely to burn the whole system down just to protect himself.

Exley97:
I think this is best write-up so far about what went down Friday with the court filings for Cohen's sentencing from both the Special Counsel office and the Southern District of New York (SDNY). Not only do the filings implicate Trump in a felony for breaking campaign finance laws, but more importantly, it ties Trump to the collusion component of the investigation.

https://www.justsecurity.org/61785/muellers-roadmap-major-takeaways-cohen-manafort-filings/

The evidence just keeps piling up, but I still doubt that this will ever end in any kind of real consequence for Trump.

Standing Justice Department policy is that the president can't be indicted while he's in office. Mueller is unlikely to go against that policy, and even if he tries, he can't actually indict anyone - the AG decides who he gets to indict.

Keeping in mind that a presidential indictment is off the table, what's going to happen is that Mueller is going to roll up all of the cronies involved in 2016 chicanery, and then Trump is going to pardon them all and say "something something witch hunt no collusion." And he'll get away with it, because if the president can't be indicted, he has to be impeached, and the reason why Trump was so chuffed about the midterm results was because Republicans expanded their Senate majority and made it slightly more improbable that 67 senators would vote to impeach him.

If you find it unlikely that Trump would just pardon everyone involved in a massive criminal conspiracy directly related to him, consider this. Just after Mueller's whirlwind week of indictments finished, Trump announced his nominee to permanently replace Jeff Sessions as Attorney General: Bill Barr, who previously served as attorney-general under Bush Senior.

Why is that part of his CV important? One of the most noteworthy and infamous things Bush Senior did was pardon everybody involved in the Iran-Contra scandal in December 1992, a little over a month before he was set to leave office after losing re-election. Barr was his attorney-general at the time and was heavily consulted in the process. In one stroke, Bush and Barr undid the work of a six-year investigation by independent counsel Lawrence Walsh, and ensured that nobody involved in a presidential conspiracy to illegally sell weapons to Iran was ever meaningfully punished.

Appointing Barr as AG is Trump sending a signal to everyone targeted by Mueller; keep your trap shut, and I'll pardon you all. There's only two counters to the pardon nuke: presidential indictment (which has never happened and no-one is sure can even happen) or impeachment (which will just never happen, because the past two years have made it perfectly clear that no Republican senator has the spine to vote to impeach Trump.)

This is why Michael Cohen suddenly shifted gears and started blabbing about Trump: Mueller had recommended he be indicted on state charges, which the president cannot pardon. With that possibility of a pardon off the table, Cohen's only option was to try and cooperate with the prosecutors. But Manafort's conviction is all federal, and Manafort's decision to lie to the FBI again after initially saying that he wanted to co-operate is a sign that he is expecting a presidential pardon.

It's all on Congress. And Congress - specifically the Senate - is not interested. The House will rip open sixteen different investigations next year, and they'll probably even vote to impeach, but the Senate is still Republican and Republican senators seem to share some kind of unique medical disorder where they were born without testicles of any kind, because that's the only explanation for why they can't find their balls after two years of looking.

bastardofmelbourne:

Seanchaidh:
I consider any fixation on the attempt to replace Trump with Pence (or, more hypothetically, any of the Clintons) to be a distraction from much larger issues facing this country, yes.

It's less about replacing Trump with Pence and more about getting rid of Trump as soon as possible, because he's the worst conceivable person for the job and every week he breaks some new norm of democratic governance based on his impulse. And while I don't think Trump is competent enough to ever turn the US into an autocracy, every time he does something that no president has ever done before (in a bad way) he sets a precedent for future presidents to follow.

President Pence is just the unfortunate side-effect of removing Trump from the office. He's just as bad as Trump in a lot of ways, but he's less likely to burn the whole system down just to protect himself.

I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

Saelune:

bastardofmelbourne:

Seanchaidh:
I consider any fixation on the attempt to replace Trump with Pence (or, more hypothetically, any of the Clintons) to be a distraction from much larger issues facing this country, yes.

It's less about replacing Trump with Pence and more about getting rid of Trump as soon as possible, because he's the worst conceivable person for the job and every week he breaks some new norm of democratic governance based on his impulse. And while I don't think Trump is competent enough to ever turn the US into an autocracy, every time he does something that no president has ever done before (in a bad way) he sets a precedent for future presidents to follow.

President Pence is just the unfortunate side-effect of removing Trump from the office. He's just as bad as Trump in a lot of ways, but he's less likely to burn the whole system down just to protect himself.

I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

Not that I think Pence is any great leader or politicians, but what crime has he committed, let alone what has he done to warrant impeachment?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

bastardofmelbourne:

It's less about replacing Trump with Pence and more about getting rid of Trump as soon as possible, because he's the worst conceivable person for the job and every week he breaks some new norm of democratic governance based on his impulse. And while I don't think Trump is competent enough to ever turn the US into an autocracy, every time he does something that no president has ever done before (in a bad way) he sets a precedent for future presidents to follow.

President Pence is just the unfortunate side-effect of removing Trump from the office. He's just as bad as Trump in a lot of ways, but he's less likely to burn the whole system down just to protect himself.

I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

Not that I think Pence is any great leader or politicians, but what crime has he committed, let alone what has he done to warrant impeachment?

He is the Presidents right hand. Unless he can prove that Trump locked him in a sound proof room since atleast 2016 which we know he didn't, he absolutely is guilty of aiding and abetting Trump's criminal and treasonous acts. At 'best' he did nothing to stop him, but he absolutely knew. Literally everyone Trump has emplyed in his cabinet is guilty. From the Trumps, to Pence, to Huckabee and Spicer.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

Not that I think Pence is any great leader or politicians, but what crime has he committed, let alone what has he done to warrant impeachment?

He is the Presidents right hand. Unless he can prove that Trump locked him in a sound proof room since atleast 2016 which we know he didn't, he absolutely is guilty of aiding and abetting Trump's criminal and treasonous acts. At 'best' he did nothing to stop him, but he absolutely knew. Literally everyone Trump has emplyed in his cabinet is guilty. From the Trumps, to Pence, to Huckabee and Spicer.

The same can be said about the entire country. You and I both know what trump is doing is illegal, what have we done to stop him? The 2nd amendment allows us to take up arms and overthrow a corrupt government, yet neither of us are in the streets shooting at government officials. Are we complicit? are we truly doing everything we can to stop him? Literally every single thing, legal or otherwise? And if not, are we not complicit in his crimes?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
Not that I think Pence is any great leader or politicians, but what crime has he committed, let alone what has he done to warrant impeachment?

He is the Presidents right hand. Unless he can prove that Trump locked him in a sound proof room since atleast 2016 which we know he didn't, he absolutely is guilty of aiding and abetting Trump's criminal and treasonous acts. At 'best' he did nothing to stop him, but he absolutely knew. Literally everyone Trump has emplyed in his cabinet is guilty. From the Trumps, to Pence, to Huckabee and Spicer.

The same can be said about the entire country. You and I both know what trump is doing is illegal, what have we done to stop him? The 2nd amendment allows us to take up arms and overthrow a corrupt government, yet neither of us are in the streets shooting at government officials. Are we complicit? are we truly doing everything we can to stop him? Literally every single thing, legal or otherwise? And if not, are we not complicit in his crimes?

I VOTED AGAINST HIM!

'Well, if the President's second in command is guilty, then all 300+million Americans must be guilty too' is quite the jump.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
He is the Presidents right hand. Unless he can prove that Trump locked him in a sound proof room since atleast 2016 which we know he didn't, he absolutely is guilty of aiding and abetting Trump's criminal and treasonous acts. At 'best' he did nothing to stop him, but he absolutely knew. Literally everyone Trump has emplyed in his cabinet is guilty. From the Trumps, to Pence, to Huckabee and Spicer.

The same can be said about the entire country. You and I both know what trump is doing is illegal, what have we done to stop him? The 2nd amendment allows us to take up arms and overthrow a corrupt government, yet neither of us are in the streets shooting at government officials. Are we complicit? are we truly doing everything we can to stop him? Literally every single thing, legal or otherwise? And if not, are we not complicit in his crimes?

I VOTED AGAINST HIM!

'Well, if the President's second in command is guilty, then all 300+million Americans must be guilty too' is quite the jump.

But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
The same can be said about the entire country. You and I both know what trump is doing is illegal, what have we done to stop him? The 2nd amendment allows us to take up arms and overthrow a corrupt government, yet neither of us are in the streets shooting at government officials. Are we complicit? are we truly doing everything we can to stop him? Literally every single thing, legal or otherwise? And if not, are we not complicit in his crimes?

I VOTED AGAINST HIM!

'Well, if the President's second in command is guilty, then all 300+million Americans must be guilty too' is quite the jump.

But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

Nope. You're throwing fallacies hard at me. Not taking it.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I VOTED AGAINST HIM!

'Well, if the President's second in command is guilty, then all 300+million Americans must be guilty too' is quite the jump.

But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

Nope. You're throwing fallacies hard at me. Not taking it.

I'm trying to find out where is the line on who is culpable on what he does? Is the WH janitor? Is Pence's secretary? Is Kelly's wife? What's the level of separation after-which we should stop jailing people for the crimes others have committed?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

Nope. You're throwing fallacies hard at me. Not taking it.

I'm trying to find out where is the line on who is culpable on what he does? Is the WH janitor? Is Pence's secretary? Is Kelly's wife? What's the level of separation after-which we should stop jailing people for the crimes others have committed?

Trump's entire cabinet and appointees. His current wife. His lawyers who aid his criminal behavior directly, such as Giuliani. His son Barron and daughter that isn't Ivanka shouldn't be held responsible though.

If you went on this tangent cause I said 'even Trump's son Barron should be arrested', sure. But Pence should be 'Individual 2'.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
Nope. You're throwing fallacies hard at me. Not taking it.

I'm trying to find out where is the line on who is culpable on what he does? Is the WH janitor? Is Pence's secretary? Is Kelly's wife? What's the level of separation after-which we should stop jailing people for the crimes others have committed?

Trump's entire cabinet and appointees. His current wife. His lawyers who aid his criminal behavior directly, such as Giuliani. His son Barron and daughter that isn't Ivanka shouldn't be held responsible though.

If you went on this tangent cause I said 'even Trump's son Barron should be arrested', sure. But Pence should be 'Individual 2'.

What about Paul Ryan? He's not called for Trump's impeachment. Mitch McConnell? And if either of them, when the Democrats take over in 2019, how long until its time to arrest them?

You mentioned Kavanaugh earlier. What's he done to be imprisoned that Gorsuch hasn't?

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