Official Special Investigation Into Trump Thread

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Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
I'm trying to find out where is the line on who is culpable on what he does? Is the WH janitor? Is Pence's secretary? Is Kelly's wife? What's the level of separation after-which we should stop jailing people for the crimes others have committed?

Trump's entire cabinet and appointees. His current wife. His lawyers who aid his criminal behavior directly, such as Giuliani. His son Barron and daughter that isn't Ivanka shouldn't be held responsible though.

If you went on this tangent cause I said 'even Trump's son Barron should be arrested', sure. But Pence should be 'Individual 2'.

What about Paul Ryan? He's not called for Trump's impeachment. Mitch McConnell? And if either of them, when the Democrats take over in 2019, how long until its time to arrest them?

You mentioned Kavanaugh earlier. What's he done to be imprisoned that Gorsuch hasn't?

People like Ryan and McConnel should be arrested for other things. Kavanaugh should be arrested for RAPE.

But again still, Pence should be arrested for aiding Trump. Its literally his job, he is Trump's second.

Silentpony:
But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

What needs to be done is to hold the president accountable by what legal means are available. For most ordinary people, that's by voting against him and against any candidate associated with him. For journalists, that's by investigating and providing honest coverage of his failings and scandals. For politicians, that's by blocking his initiatives and demanding greater oversight of his activities, and supporting impeachment in the event that felonies are proven. For law enforcement officers with federal jurisdiction, that's by investigating the administration and refusing to bow to pressure from the top to cover things up.

Public protest of the president has already reached what seems to be the absolute border of acceptability. A million women marched in opposition of the president after his inauguration. The president doesn't seem to care. If he continues to not care, and if Congress refuses to act, and if law enforcement is suppressed or compromised, then there will be violent protest. But that is the worst case scenario. There's no need to leap to it when it's still possible to resolve this through peaceful protest and exercising the power to vote.

Silentpony:
What about Paul Ryan? He's not called for Trump's impeachment. Mitch McConnell? And if either of them, when the Democrats take over in 2019, how long until its time to arrest them?

Ryan and McConnell definitely need to be permanently kicked out of politics, because they're both terrible people. But they'd have to have committed a specific crime in order to be indicted or arrested. Right now, their behaviour amounts to especially egregious rules lawyering and pathological dishonesty, not actual criminal conduct.

Silentpony:
You mentioned Kavanaugh earlier. What's he done to be imprisoned that Gorsuch hasn't?

Lied to Congress.

I mean, come on. "Devil's Triangle" is a drinking game? Pull the other one.

Saelune:
Kavanaugh should be arrested for RAPE.

As I remember saying in my thread on the topic, Kavanaugh's behaviour - while atrocious - likely did not constitute a crime under Maryland law, and certainly does not constitute a felony. Setting aside the fact that it transpired in the early 80s, the best you could get would be misdemeanour sexual assault.

This was something I kept having to bring up during the Kavanaugh debacle. Both opponents of Kavanaugh and supporters were acting like he was being accused of something that should send him to prison for life. He wasn't; the only question raised by the allegations was whether they represented behaviour that should disqualify someone from the Supreme Court or, indeed, from serving as a judge. I think the former is certainly true, but Kavanaugh was never "on trial" - he wasn't going to be sent to jail if his confirmation failed, he'd just be sent back to the Federal Court to continue making a six-figure salary for the rest of his career.

Instead, he chose to lie to Congress in defence of his juvenile delinquency, which was a much more serious issue because unlike the allegations of sexual assault in 1982-3, his decision to lie in 2018 indicated that he hadn't changed or improved as a person since then. Rather, he remained dishonest and rather transparently partisan - the same guy who worked as a political hatchet man in the 90s, and who was appointed to the Federal Court in the 00s as a reward for shielding the Bush administration from legal challenges. The truth about Kavanaugh is that he is a hack. His legal reasoning was often nonsense and he clearly only gained his position thanks to political favoritism.

The sexual assault allegations were icing on the shit-cake, but then Kavanaugh decided to sit in front of Congress and offer everyone a slice while discussing his recipe.

Saelune:
I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

The sad fact about this is that no-one will go to jail. There are two types of people who never go to jail: presidents and rich people. Trump is both. Do the math.

Pence should probably be impeached as well as Trump, but Pence has been assiduous in his avoidance of any real contact with Trump or his many scandals. He's kept himself at arm's length, occasionally demonstrating loyalty to secure his position but never sticking his neck out in a way that endangers him. This is because he fully expects to become President when Trump is impeached, at which point he will likely follow Gerald Ford in pardoning his predecessor.

You have to remember that the idea that Trump will end his days in an orange jumpsuit is a fantasy. The best anyone can hope for is just that he gets kicked out of office and returns to his life as a full-time member of the Twitterati.

bastardofmelbourne:

Silentpony:
But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

What needs to be done is to hold the president accountable by what legal means are available. For most ordinary people, that's by voting against him and against any candidate associated with him. For journalists, that's by investigating and providing honest coverage of his failings and scandals. For politicians, that's by blocking his initiatives and demanding greater oversight of his activities, and supporting impeachment in the event that felonies are proven. For law enforcement officers with federal jurisdiction, that's by investigating the administration and refusing to bow to pressure from the top to cover things up.

Public protest of the president has already reached what seems to be the absolute border of acceptability. A million women marched in opposition of the president after his inauguration. The president doesn't seem to care. If he continues to not care, and if Congress refuses to act, and if law enforcement is suppressed or compromised, then there will be violent protest. But that is the worst case scenario. There's no need to leap to it when it's still possible to resolve this through peaceful protest and exercising the power to vote.

Silentpony:
What about Paul Ryan? He's not called for Trump's impeachment. Mitch McConnell? And if either of them, when the Democrats take over in 2019, how long until its time to arrest them?

Ryan and McConnell definitely need to be permanently kicked out of politics, because they're both terrible people. But they'd have to have committed a specific crime in order to be indicted or arrested. Right now, their behaviour amounts to especially egregious rules lawyering and pathological dishonesty, not actual criminal conduct.

Silentpony:
You mentioned Kavanaugh earlier. What's he done to be imprisoned that Gorsuch hasn't?

Lied to Congress.

I mean, come on. "Devil's Triangle" is a drinking game? Pull the other one.

Saelune:
Kavanaugh should be arrested for RAPE.

As I remember saying in my thread on the topic, Kavanaugh's behaviour - while atrocious - likely did not constitute a crime under Maryland law, and certainly does not constitute a felony. Setting aside the fact that it transpired in the early 80s, the best you could get would be misdemeanour sexual assault.

This was something I kept having to bring up during the Kavanaugh debacle. Both opponents of Kavanaugh and supporters were acting like he was being accused of something that should send him to prison for life. He wasn't; the only question raised by the allegations was whether they represented behaviour that should disqualify someone from the Supreme Court or, indeed, from serving as a judge. I think the former is certainly true, but Kavanaugh was never "on trial" - he wasn't going to be sent to jail if his confirmation failed, he'd just be sent back to the Federal Court to continue making a six-figure salary for the rest of his career.

Instead, he chose to lie to Congress in defence of his juvenile delinquency, which was a much more serious issue because unlike the allegations of sexual assault in 1982-3, his decision to lie in 2018 indicated that he hadn't changed or improved as a person since then. Rather, he remained dishonest and rather transparently partisan - the same guy who worked as a political hatchet man in the 90s, and who was appointed to the Federal Court in the 00s as a reward for shielding the Bush administration from legal challenges. The truth about Kavanaugh is that he is a hack. His legal reasoning was often nonsense and he clearly only gained his position thanks to political favoritism.

The sexual assault allegations were icing on the shit-cake, but then Kavanaugh decided to sit in front of Congress and offer everyone a slice while discussing his recipe.

Saelune:
I mean, shouldn't Pence go to jail too? Trump is a terrorist, a felon, a traitor, and illegal President. He needs to go, Pence needs to go, Kavanaugh needs to go.

The sad fact about this is that no-one will go to jail. There are two types of people who never go to jail: presidents and rich people. Trump is both. Do the math.

Pence should probably be impeached as well as Trump, but Pence has been assiduous in his avoidance of any real contact with Trump or his many scandals. He's kept himself at arm's length, occasionally demonstrating loyalty to secure his position but never sticking his neck out in a way that endangers him. This is because he fully expects to become President when Trump is impeached, at which point he will likely follow Gerald Ford in pardoning his predecessor.

You have to remember that the idea that Trump will end his days in an orange jumpsuit is a fantasy. The best anyone can hope for is just that he gets kicked out of office and returns to his life as a full-time member of the Twitterati.

I live in a country founded on the idea that if the law is wrong, change it so it is right. Pence, Trump, Kavanaugh should all be punished severely.

So apparently that Russian spy pleaded guilty to being a Russian spy and actively coordinating with the GOP and Kremlin.

Silentpony:
So apparently that Russian spy pleaded guilty to being a Russian spy and actively coordinating with the GOP and Kremlin.

Looks like that NothingBurger is coming Slathered in Russian Dressing.

...

No, I will not see myself out. I'm proud of that.

Silentpony:
So apparently that Russian spy pleaded guilty to being a Russian spy and actively coordinating with the GOP and Kremlin.

And the NRA. Remember what I told you about the GOP and the NRA months ago?

Adam Jensen:

Silentpony:
So apparently that Russian spy pleaded guilty to being a Russian spy and actively coordinating with the GOP and Kremlin.

And the NRA. Remember what I told you about the GOP and the NRA months ago?

Remind me please?

Silentpony:

Adam Jensen:

Silentpony:
So apparently that Russian spy pleaded guilty to being a Russian spy and actively coordinating with the GOP and Kremlin.

And the NRA. Remember what I told you about the GOP and the NRA months ago?

Remind me please?

They've both been under FBI investigation for quite some time now.

Adam Jensen:

Silentpony:

Adam Jensen:

And the NRA. Remember what I told you about the GOP and the NRA months ago?

Remind me please?

They've both been under FBI investigation for quite some time now.

I'm guessing for the same thing, the Russian money laundering thing?

Silentpony:

Adam Jensen:

Silentpony:
Remind me please?

They've both been under FBI investigation for quite some time now.

I'm guessing for the same thing, the Russian money laundering thing?

Probably not the only thing they did, but yeah, that seems to be the most significant one.

Too bad Flynn's sentencing was delayed. It probably would have been followed by further indictments of other co-conspirators. Now we'll have to wait. But the good news is that Flynn is now forced to cooperate even further because the judge wasn't willing to let him go without a jail sentence otherwise. He essentially called him a traitor.

Its fun remembering things people said in 2016, aint it?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
The same can be said about the entire country. You and I both know what trump is doing is illegal, what have we done to stop him? The 2nd amendment allows us to take up arms and overthrow a corrupt government, yet neither of us are in the streets shooting at government officials. Are we complicit? are we truly doing everything we can to stop him? Literally every single thing, legal or otherwise? And if not, are we not complicit in his crimes?

I VOTED AGAINST HIM!

'Well, if the President's second in command is guilty, then all 300+million Americans must be guilty too' is quite the jump.

But what have you done since? Technically speaking Trump hadn't committed any crimes as President during the 2016 election. So no points there. He has since, as President, committed crimes. Have you done enough to safely say anyone who has not done every single thing they can to stop Trump as President should be in jail, and it won't include you?

We do not know if Trump will be charged for his crimes as President, and in fact we do know he has been in violation of the law. Trump has been in violation of the Emoluments Clause since taking office and a case has been moving forward on this. He has also been in violation of numerous other laws by failing to comply with court orders in regards to his immigration policies. He has also been in violation to the presidential records act by destroying documents as president. The list is still accumulating, so in fact he technically HAS committed crimes since becoming president and they are still accumulating, in the end he very well could be charged with quite a bit if they choose to pursue it.

Lil devils x:
Trump has been in violation of the Emoluments Clause since taking office and a case has been moving forward on this.

Wait, a case is moving forward? Who has standing?

Seanchaidh:

Lil devils x:
Trump has been in violation of the Emoluments Clause since taking office and a case has been moving forward on this.

Wait, a case is moving forward? Who has standing?

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/685977471/federal-watchdog-finds-government-ignored-emoluments-clause-with-trump-hotel

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/judge-emoluments-case-trump-move-forward/story?id=56816960
Maryland and Dc do apparently. The court date is in March:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/423967-court-schedules-arguments-in-trump-emoluments-case

Buzzfeed reports that Mueller's office has hard evidence of the president directing Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about his Moscow real estate project. Cohen would have been speaking to Congress under oath; if Cohen had been ordered to lie, then that means that the president directed his personal lawyer to commit perjury.

If this is true, then Mueller has the president locked down. The administration has tried to escape imputations of corrupt intent in actions such as the firing of FBI Director James Comey in early 2017 by arguing that there were legitimate, non-corrupt reasons why Comey was fired. (Never mind how implausible those explanations were, or the president's own words on the matter.) But if Buzzfeed's reporting is accurate, then debates about the legal technicalities of obstruction of justice go out the window; there is no conceivable non-corrupt interpretation of the president's actions.

The important caveat there: if true. Reporting on the Trump-Russia scandal has had a few high-profile missteps - journalists jumping the gun with bad sources, or reporting erroneous dates. Mistakes happen. And this is Buzzfeed - the same outlet that decided to publish the Steele dossier, months after many other more reputable news outlets had declined to do due to concerns about its sourcing and its extraordinary claims. And Mueller's office has already released a statement saying that "aspects of the story" were "not accurate."

So don't expect this to change minds just yet. The president spends 80% of his tweet-space complaining about fake news for a reason; when reporters catch him doing naughty shit, he wants his supporters to disregard their reporting. Mueller's statement gives "respectable" conservatives cover to dismiss the allegations and therefore avoid having to address the question of whether their commander-in-chief is actually just a crook.

But Mueller's statement is interesting because it's not a complete denial, and because there are practical reasons why Mueller might want Buzzfeed to shut up. Firstly, the statement takes issue with Buzzfeed's characterisation of the reported evidence - not the existence of the evidence itself. That indicates that the documents Buzzfeed were basing their story on to actually do exist, but were reported out-of-context or misinterpreted by Buzzfeed's reporters. Journalists aren't lawyers; it's likely that Mueller's team has more insight into the legal significance of the evidence than Buzzfeed does. A similar problem plagued conservative reporting on the Strzok-Page texts - by taking the texts out of context, ignoring the relevant legalities and filling in the gaps with supposition and motivated reasoning, they were able to perceive a deep state conspiracy where there was none. (Don't expect them to recognise the hypocrisy anytime soon.)

Furthermore, Mueller is more likely to be angry if the reporting was true than if it was just rumour. Prosecutors working cases generally do not want the details of what evidence they do or do not possess plastered on the front page. This goes double for prosecutors investigating a criminal conspiracy, and quintuple for prosecutors investigating a criminal conspiracy where the chief conspirator is the President of the United States. If the president is made aware that Mueller possesses conclusive evidence of obstruction of justice, he is likely to take extreme action; he may try to fire the special counsel (as Nixon did during Watergate) or he may start destroying evidence before it can be subpoena'd (as Oliver North did for Reagan during the Iran-Contra scandal). Mueller is in an incredibly tenuous position; legally speaking, there is absolutely nothing stopping the president from just firing him and then burying his report. (The publication of the special counsel's report is not mandatory; it's up to the attorney-general.)

Whatever way you cut it, the report is explosive, and pressure to impeach the president is rising. An early impeachment would, of course, be doomed; you'd need about twenty Republican senators to flip, and they simply will not do that so long as there is the thinnest possible sliver of political cover that they can use to avoid having to do so. (If there's one thing that the last two years have conclusively proven, it's that the remaining Republicans in Congress are all cowards and sycophants.) For impeachment to work, Mueller's report has to come out and it has to hit like an atomic bomb - and Buzzfeed may have found the fissile material.

So Cohen (former Trump layer but now the two are on bad term since Cohen decided to not throw his life away to protect) report to congress that was supposed to take place on the 7th of February (which would have been open door) has been pushed back because Cohen and his family are receiving threat. Said threat directly come from he president himself, with one of his tweet directly referencing Cohen father in law saying to "watch" him.

This is pretty darn dark... of course will not make one iota difference in Trump chance to be impeached. Honestly I still think impeachment would be a bad idea because it would fail and most people would only hear "democrat tried to impeach the president and failed" and for some people who don't follow this that'd sound like Trump is innocent. But it's pretty clear that the bar for resonable (and non partisan) impeachment has been crossed at this point.

We can add still delaying imposing the sanctions as required by law to the list of favors Trump is doing for Putin:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-admin-has-not-yet-imposed-new-sanctions-on-russia-required-by-law/ar-BBSHl1A?ocid=spartandhp

What good does it do for congress to pass sanctions if Trump refuses to implement them?

The latest FBI arrest has been made by the Mueller probe. This time, it's Roger Stone, former advisor to Trump.

Roger Stone is 66 years old and is facing decades of jail time w/ no hope of a Presidential Pardon because Trump's granting one would trigger a move to impeach him from the Republicans (go figure).

I can see Stone sweating whether to turn on Trump given that Trump will inevitably turn on him. It's easy to swear eternal loyalty when you're not in prison. Facing decades of prison time with the knowledge that Trump is likely going down whether Stone talks or not could really weaken Stone's resolve

Basement Cat:
Roger Stone is 66 years old and is facing decades of jail time w/ no hope of a Presidential Pardon because Trump's granting one would trigger a move to impeach him from the Republicans (go figure).

I can see Stone sweating whether to turn on Trump given that Trump will inevitably turn on him. It's easy to swear eternal loyalty when you're not in prison. Facing decades of prison time with the knowledge that Trump is likely going down whether Stone talks or not could really weaken Stone's resolve

You think Trump doesn't have a similar plan to mobs/cartels? Going to jail can be quite lucrative.

Scratch that. Trump is not known to actually pay out.

Lil devils x:
We can add still delaying imposing the sanctions as required by law to the list of favors Trump is doing for Putin:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-admin-has-not-yet-imposed-new-sanctions-on-russia-required-by-law/ar-BBSHl1A?ocid=spartandhp

What good does it do for congress to pass sanctions if Trump refuses to implement them?

The Republicans can day they were doing the right thing, but they were blocked by the president. They going to be setting themselves up for if Trump falls

Here is an interactive giant timeline on the investigations that might be helpful to those coming in late to the discussion:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/russia-timeline/

I'm almost curious to see what Russia Maddow has to say about this. Almost.

Seanchaidh:

I'm almost curious to see what Russia Maddow has to say about this. Almost.

Please read past the headline. I hope you realize that you're taking Richard Burr of all people at his word on this. The article even points out that Democrats on the committee are saying that Burr is mischaracterizing what they've seen so far. Look, I don't think they're going to find a literal document that proves that Putin made a deal with Trump. Hell, they know that too. And I don't believe that Trump is a Kremlin agent. However the cartoon characters that were running the Trump campaign were trying to make some kind of deal, that much has been proven among numerous other shady activities. His campaign was made up of criminals and shady characters who all wanted something out of it, of coarse they committed crimes and made shady deals. Hell, Jared Kushner is still doing so while he's in the White House. I get that the #Resistance and people like Maddow are presenting this in an exaggerated way, to where the Kremlin is our new shadow government, but being utterly dismissive is also counter-productive.

Trump is fucking insane.

Micheal Cohan is going to testify tomorrow, essentially spilling the beans.

Not only that, but he'll apparently produce evidence that not only did The Orange in Chief break the law prior to being elected, but continued to do so afterwards.

Source:NPR

His specific words describing his former boss: "He is a racist. He is a conman. He is a cheat."

Nothing sounds sweeter than the truth coming from a liar's mouth. I expected Cohen to fold once it was clear a pardon was off the table, but I never expected him to fold this hard.

The White House's only defence against this testimony so far is to point out all the times that Cohen lied in service of the president to claim that he is now lying in disservice to the president, which is an argument so circular that it could probably toss its own metaphorical salad.

Some other juicy bits from the released statement:

In particular, Cohen will recount a July 2016 phone conversation he witnessed between Trump, who was then a presidential candidate, and Stone. According to Cohen, "Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange and that Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that, within a couple of days, there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clinton's campaign."

Cohen will testify that Trump responded, "Wouldn't that be great."

In early June, Cohen recounts, he was with Trump in his office when Donald Trump Jr. - one of the meeting's participants - "came into the room and walked behind his father's desk," which Cohen says was "unusual."

"I recalled Don Jr. leaning over to his father and speaking in a low voice, which I could clearly hear, and saying: 'The meeting is all set.' I remember Mr. Trump saying, 'Ok good...let me know.'"

"Mr. Trump knew of and directed the Trump Moscow negotiations throughout the campaign and lied about it," Cohen will say. "He lied about it because he never expected to win the election. He also lied about it because he stood to make hundreds of millions of dollars on the Moscow real estate project."

"While we were once driving through a struggling neighborhood in Chicago, he commented that only black people could live that way," Cohen will say. "And, he told me that black people would never vote for him because they were too stupid."

But, my favourite:

Cohen will also tell the committee that he will provide "copies of letters I wrote at Mr. Trump's direction that threatened his high school, colleges, and the College Board not to release his grades or SAT scores."

:D

Donald Trump is guilty.

Now as Trump and his supporters bash and try to discredit Cohen, oh look at this!

Saelune:
Donald Trump is guilty.

Now as Trump and his supporters bash and try to discredit Cohen, oh look at this!

If its December of 2019 and Trump is still in office, he ain't going away unless a Democratic candidate wins the Mid Term Election.

Samtemdo8:

Saelune:
Donald Trump is guilty.

Snip

If its December of 2019 and Trump is still in office, he ain't going away unless a Democratic candidate wins the Mid Term Election.

image

Trump is guilty, and so is anyone who protects him.

Saelune:

Samtemdo8:

Saelune:
Donald Trump is guilty.

Snip

If its December of 2019 and Trump is still in office, he ain't going away unless a Democratic candidate wins the Mid Term Election.

image

Trump is guilty, and so is anyone who protects him.

I am just an observer. I don't know much about this entire thing and how much is at stake really.

Samtemdo8:

Saelune:

Samtemdo8:

If its December of 2019 and Trump is still in office, he ain't going away unless a Democratic candidate wins the Mid Term Election.

image

Trump is guilty, and so is anyone who protects him.

I am just an observer. I don't know much about this entire thing and how much is at stake really.

I know you're not pro-Trump, wasn't accusing you. Trump should have gone down sooner, but he is going down. And everyone who supported him will never be able to live it down.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is a treasure.

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