246: Fighting Games: A Tapped-Out Genre?

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Sparcrypt:
-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends

These are valid points, but I don't think these flaws made SF4 weak in terms of its potential appeal to new players.

SF4 is incredibly slick in the way its gameplay works. Not perfect by any means, but the accessiblity for beginners is really impressive. My daughter pulled off a Spinning Piledriver. She's seven. The original Street Fighter II had me struggling to do a mere Dragon Punch at more than twice that age!

I'm suprised he didn't mention Dead or Alive which, personally, I think should be mentioned among Tekken and Street Fighter.

Its just not your genre - get over it.

Now, I'm not good at fighters - never have been, probably never will be - but I love the games. In these days of leveling up, perks and unlocks fighting games have a purity of experience. It simply comes down to skill, theres no room for excuses - if you lost, you lost to a better player. It takes practice, skill and precision to effectivly fight in such a game - the quater circle is no more guilty of being arcaic than the turn based system of chess.

Sparcrypt:

Icecoldcynic:
Although personally I think the commercial and critical success of Street Fighter 4 does show that while the genre may be the same as it was years ago, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. Personally I'm not really a fan of 3D fighters, and street fighter's position as a constant, unchanging series is what kept me loving it all this time.

Street Fighter IV sold well because of nostalgic fans - you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter. Now don't get me wrong.. I'm one of those fans. I bought the collectors on launch and I think the game is great... once you enter the ring.

The console versions were extremely weak. Take a step back, remove the ready made arcade game that was already set to go and look at that the console team actually did..

-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends
-Extremely weak storylines.
-A terrible animated movie and bad quality figurines for those of us that forked out significantly more cash. (Seriously? They spend the whole damn movie making Ryu angry then go 'oh whoops, now hes angry and all powerful.. run awaaaayyyyy!')

Now they're releasing Super Street Fighter IV and fixing things that should never have made launch in the first place. Whats worse was the SSFII Hyper on Xbox live was a perfect example of what they SHOULD have done with the console versions. So they only explanations are that they are either unbelievably stupid and bad at game design or they did it on purpose with SSSIV in mind to 'fix' everything, make everyone shell out yet another 100 bucks and gives us a couple random costumes as a reward.

The annoying thing is that because it will have online round robin... I will buy it :(.

Street Fighter has always been built for the arcades in mind. Do you think people want to have to sit through stuff that isn't gameplay? No, they want to be playing as much as possible.

you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Street Fighter 4 sold over 3 million copies on 360 and PS3. I doubt most of those were on nostalgia. And in all the tournaments it's become the most played game too. EVO 09 had over 1400 people participate in the SF4 tourney. That's the biggest it has ever been for a video game tournament probably ever.

I'm 18, I was born the year SF2 came out, and I love Street Fighter. The last Street Fighter game before 4 was just over ten years ago, just like me, I'm sure people picked it up after it's hay day and grew to love it. I played Alpha 2 and 3rd strike a lot growing up. Street Fighter 4 to me is a great game, and people forget it was one of the game to really revitalize the genre. 2008 with HD Remix sales and SF4 in arcades brought the attention of other companies that have their great games like Guilty Gear and King of Fighters to bring their stuff to the public in 2009, which to me is the year fighters made a come back. and now in Early 2010 people are saying it's getting stale?

get outta here.

And I'm definitely getting Supa for 40 dollars, not 100. Where did you see that? Is that like the price in your region? That sucks :(

mindlesspuppet:
I think fighting games are on the decline because they are most fun when played with a room full of your friends, some pizza, and beverages. Now-a-days we lean more towards online multiplayer, which allows the faults of fighting games to really shine: they are boring without people throwing popcorn at you or laughing in your face.

This, incredibly this.

Guilty Gear XX and its various follow-ups (Reload, Accent Core, etc.) are the only traditional fighting games I've enjoyed for longer than a few hours. I can do alright with Tekken's Paul if I need to, but the game isn't as entertaining as GG. That said, playing them at home on my own? Not fun regardless. Part of what made that game so fun to play was playing it in the rec center at college with friends between classes just kicking the crap out of each other and mocking whoever was screwing up the most, laughing at random glitches (Slayer doing air-to-ground super KO'd Slayer doing ground-to-air super when the latter teleported through the airborne Slayer and got exploded in the backwash of his dive. Funny timing. ... Maybe you had to be there.) and just generally having a good time. I can't imagine trying to play that kind of game online - I'd need the people around me in the room for chatter and laughter and just...atmosphere in general. It's part of the game - without that it feels incomplete. Dramatically so.

Wishing I had the console for Blazblue, but it wouldn't be as fun to play on my own anyway. :|

Two other notes:
-On rhythm-based fighting, I believe there's a mechanic in Guilty Gear Isuka that causes combo hits to do more damage if you land them in time with the background music of the stage, but I'm not proficient enough with combos to test that out. Just something I read about the game.

-A West Side Story rhythm-fighter would be hilarious win. I wouldn't play it as I hate/suck at rhythm games, but I'd feel compelled to watch someone else play it.

Woem:

Dissidia revolutionised the controls by using the analog stick for movement. It also features huge arenas which are highly interactive in that they can be flown through, jumped on and that they can be demolished. On top of that you can smash your opponents against the decor for extra damage. There are added RPG elements (this is a Final Fantasy title after all) so you can upgrade your characters, equip them and personalise their abilities.

It sounds like PowerStone 2, thats a compliment.

ForgottenPr0digy:
The only two fighting games stories I care about Tekken's and Soul Calibur's

I suck at most 2d fighting games I'm a little bit better at 3d fighting games but I hate how if i wanna get better I have to buy a fighting stick and learn bunch combos. Which to me is not fun.

Tekken isn't about memorising combos and juggles? Did you ever play as King or Nina?

In the article he argues that fighting games should try rpg elements like pokemon. Its been done. Go and play Street Fighter Alpha 3 (you even decided how to level them up, my Zangief could kill you with 2 Spinning Pile Drivers), The newest Soul Calibur and Tekken, Any of the UFC games. They all involve building and developing charecter.

He complains about lack of story... say like Counter Strike of Team Fortress or Forza. No one said these games were worse for their lack of story. It reaks of double standards. These are games about competition, I'll play Mass Effect when I want story driven. Everything doesn't need to be story driven and if were are honest even the best in game stories are no where near as good as an average film or book as far as story goes.

I love fighting games, the biggest barrier I see is that console controllers and PCs are not built to play them. Anyone who is half way serious needs to splash out on pricey peripherals. The closest to a passable input for (particularly 2D)fighters is the PS3 controller and I wouldnt be happy about using one.

Its no different from RTS or FPS games. I grew up learning to throw fireballs, first in the arcades then on my SNES and on and on. It may be hard to pick up, totally new, and play (We used to joke about marrying the first girl we met who could throw dragon punches) but the same could be said about FPS and those games are thriving.

Don't believe me? Let your uncle/dad/girlfriend/stereotypical-none-gamer play an FPS if they've not played before. They will spend most of their time in a corner staring at the ceiling. At least they can mash buttons and throw basic strikes on street fighter.

The only thing I do agree with is that fighters aren't developing at any pace, niether are shooters, or racing games or... I could go on. Its an industry that plays safe. Once a title does something different successfully others will follow. The biggest change I've seen is the move towards create a fighter but even thats not really new.

W00t! blazblue ftw!
Where else can you pit a catgirl against a...erm...pile of goo?
Wtf is arakune?

armageddon74400:
Where else can you pit a catgirl against a...erm...pile of goo?

/h/ on 4chan?

I agree 100% with this article. I've been a tournament winner in the past for Tekken and i have to tell you right now i sold Tekken 6 within the first week of playing it. Blaze blue is an amazing game to me and even my non gamer girlfriend preferred watching a match there then desperate housewives. All i'm saying is that the right step to take with the fighting genre is to make us care about kicking each others ass again, and not the cheap way.

This article fails miserably in both the understanding of game design and knowledge of the genre. Lets get the easy stuff out of the way first.

1) Story?...STORY!? fighting games have never been about story and they don't need to be about story. If anything, the story mode is simply there are a means to help a player learn to ropes of the game if they so choose not to use the practice mode. Sure you could add story to a fighting game, but WHY? It's like complaining there is no story in a racing or sports game, it's not there (or really weak) because that's not the primary focus of the game. Not all games require story, and not all games benefit from story plain and simple.

2) Archaic gameplay? are you sure you are not confusing archaic with core and fundamental gameplay. The controls of a fighting game have aged no different than many other genres such as the shooter or the RTS. Complaining about inputting a sequence of buttons and saying it's hard for newcomers is laughably stupid. Why should fighting games move away from their fundamental controls? it's like saying aiming in an FPS or selecting troops in an RTS is stale and outdated, it's just flat out being lazy and looking for something to complain about.

Yes the gameplay in MOST fighting games can be rather indistinguishable to newcomers, but again it can be applied to a plethora of genres. Fighting games are all about whats under the hood and although the mechanical differences can be subtle, that's a good thing. What this writer did was simply look at rudimentary aspects and overblown them, nothing more. Half circles, quarter circles, rapid cancels, EX bursts, ect are still around because they both define the genre and they WORK.

4) unintuitive gameplay? that is what the manual is for, the provided move list, the god damned PRACTICE modes are for; to get you in touch with how the game works. While being intuitive can be a good thing for games, a real good thing, there can sometimes be a price to pay for it. There is something about being intuitive that can compromise the overall complexity and depth of the game; and a fighting game without depth or complexity is a terrible game. Why must it be so accessible? why must it always be "dumbed down" for those who are not willing to take the time to learn? Fighting games are about pure skill and the only way you learn is by climbing that steep hill. Fighting games are a whole lot more simplistic and easier than some may think, which is funny as their simplicity comes from how complex they can be.

5) Mix it up a bit? There a plenty of different fighters out there, hell look at smash bros, there's a perfect example. I'm gonna pretend the suggestions in the article are jokes because boy did they give me a sick laugh.

If you don't like the genre, or do not understand it's competitive and sport like nature, then don't play it and don't complain. It's clearly not a genre this writer know much about or even cares for.

Dom Camus:

Sparcrypt:
-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends

These are valid points, but I don't think these flaws made SF4 weak in terms of its potential appeal to new players.

SF4 is incredibly slick in the way its gameplay works. Not perfect by any means, but the accessibility for beginners is really impressive. My daughter pulled off a Spinning Piledriver. She's seven. The original Street Fighter II had me struggling to do a mere Dragon Punch at more than twice that age!

Well.. I dont know what to tell you there, I played it back then and I play it now, the moves are pretty much the same difficulty level :)

BLOONINJA 503:

Street Fighter has always been built for the arcades in mind. Do you think people want to have to sit through stuff that isn't gameplay? No, they want to be playing as much as possible.

I don't understand this statement.. are you saying that people aren't interested in well designed menus and highly demanded and popular online modes and functions? Because if so you're wrong.

I am a huge SF fan. I'm just not a SF fanboy.. and to overlook then VERY large flaws of the console version requires a fanboys perspective.

you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Street Fighter 4 sold over 3 million copies on 360 and PS3. I doubt most of those were on nostalgia. And in all the tournaments it's become the most played game too. EVO 09 had over 1400 people participate in the SF4 tourney. That's the biggest it has ever been for a video game tournament probably ever.

Nostalgia was probably a bad term for it - I would bet many of those 3 million were already established Street Fighter fans though. Most of the rest would be established fighter fans.

I'm 18, I was born the year SF2 came out, and I love Street Fighter. The last Street Fighter game before 4 was just over ten years ago, just like me, I'm sure people picked it up after it's hay day and grew to love it. I played Alpha 2 and 3rd strike a lot growing up. Street Fighter 4 to me is a great game, and people forget it was one of the game to really revitalize the genre. 2008 with HD Remix sales and SF4 in arcades brought the attention of other companies that have their great games like Guilty Gear and King of Fighters to bring their stuff to the public in 2009, which to me is the year fighters made a come back. and now in Early 2010 people are saying it's getting stale?

get outta here.

You don't have to sell SF to me.. like I said, very big fan. My point was they completely dropped the ball for the console version when they had the framework from HD Remix ready to go.

And I'm definitely getting Supa for 40 dollars, not 100. Where did you see that? Is that like the price in your region? That sucks :(

It's called living in Australia, where we are overcharged for games simply because we can be.

Gotta agree with most of the posters in this thread... there really isn't anything wrong with fighting games. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the thing that is wrong with fighting games is fighting games that try to appeal to too many different people. SF4, for example, has turned out to be a pretty good game by most accounts but none of that was because of how it was dumbed down from previous entries (no ISMs, no custom combos, no selectable supers, no varying power level supers, etc.).

Traditional fighting games are a niche genre with an extremely die hard base and the only thing they need to do to expand upon that is to showcase themselves more. There have been many mentions lately of games that are in some ways more fun to watch than they are to play (GoW3, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, etc.) but well played fighting games are at least as good as if not better than anything that's been mentioned. Sure it's been overused, but show someone the Daigo comeback video and you'll quickly see someone who wants to at try a fighting game. After that it's in that individual player's court and no game design choices will make up for a lack of dedication, just like in any genre.

Im sorry but complaining about innovation in to make fighting games better for everyone is like complaing about making RPGs better for everyone. It just doesnt make sense. Fighting games are the way they are for fighting game fans. You either appreciate the sharp learning curve, the challenge, the variety of characters and the competetion or you dont. All of this genre blending in gaming is really starting to piss me off!

Case in point two of the biggest RPG releases of recent memory (FF13 and Mass effect 2)both had their ROG elements pared down so that other game fans can appreciate.

Every year Madden 2010 leaves out realistic game elements in order to add a new gimmick to draw in casual fans.

Even fighting games like tekken added crap "anime" style characters to pull from anime's popularity and all but broke the general dynamics and personality of the game with broken characters.

Everybody will not like every game, everybody shouldnt like every game. When I wannt a linear straight beat em up "spectacle fighter" ill play Bayonetta or ninja gaiden not Final Fantasy, when I want a visceral shooter with simple pick up and play elements ill play Gears of War not Mass Effect, when I want an over the top anime experience ill play Naruto not Tekken.

Games are trying so hard to be everything to everybody they will end up being nothing.

Not to defend SF4s shitty netplay and lobby system but they couldn't really just drop HDRs right in. Besides SF4 not being able to support GGPO, both games were being developers concurrently by Capcom US and Capcom Japan.

That said, it still sucked -- more then just about every other fighting game netplay lobby system. Even without being able to use HDRs lobby/netplay system, the quality was still inexcusable.

>:< Leave my fighting genre alone you innovative bastards!
Don't worry Tekken, DOA, DBZ, I won't let the bad men hurt you!


Well, maybe DBZ could do the reverse and go back to the Tenkaichi roots where I could smash people through things.....
Actually, DOA is a perfect example of what can happen to a series when people lose sight of whats important in a genre.

Mattteus:

SamElliot'sMustache:

Or perhaps a rhythm-based fighting game...

Am I the only one who instantly thought of a game similar to "West Side Story" upon reading these words? Furthermore, am I the only one who would play that game? :D

no, I'd probably play that too

The one problem I could see with a game like that is the danger of it being based soley around Quick Time Events. I don't hate QTEs like some players do, but I would prefer that they be used more as pieces of the whole rather than the whole itself. Maybe if the fighting and the rhythm were just tied together it would work, like this example:

Shjade:

-On rhythm-based fighting, I believe there's a mechanic in Guilty Gear Isuka that causes combo hits to do more damage if you land them in time with the background music of the stage, but I'm not proficient enough with combos to test that out. Just something I read about the game.

Ah, if only I was good at programming, I'd love to take on this concept.

Woem:
Fate offers special missions that let you ease into the different characters. Missions go from defeating an enemy in a limited amount of time, to performing a specific combo to playing a mini-game. It has a very varried roster, ranging from a creepy girl that comes straight out of The Ring, a halberd-wielding nurse, a Jean-of-Arc-esque knight to a magic-hurling floating oracle and a Hulk-like beast.

It's also got a story...or rather, it's tied in to the story of the visual novel it's based off of: Fate/Stay Night. As such, the game is really aimed at either people who are already hardcore fighting game fans, or people who are fans of the Fate games already.

For the former, the game is heavily technical and muscle memory-based, and it goes out of its way to train the player to play like such (rewarding them when they do). For the latter, other than the story (out of curiosity, does the PSP version have the story translated?), it's got a ton of small shoutouts, like some of the minigames (Kotomine eating mabo tofu) and certain moves working differently in special circumstances (Gilgamesh's throw animation changes when he's fighting Saber, and Shirou's EX Super changes when he uses it against Kotomine).

On the other hand, it was kind of amusing to see Berserker described as a Hulk-like beast (Heracles does get like that sometimes, doesn't he?). I'm glad they kept the original VN's sound clips for his roaring.

NeutralDrow:

Woem:
Fate offers special missions that let you ease into the different characters. Missions go from defeating an enemy in a limited amount of time, to performing a specific combo to playing a mini-game. It has a very varried roster, ranging from a creepy girl that comes straight out of The Ring, a halberd-wielding nurse, a Jean-of-Arc-esque knight to a magic-hurling floating oracle and a Hulk-like beast.

It's also got a story...or rather, it's tied in to the story of the visual novel it's based off of: Fate/Stay Night. As such, the game is really aimed at either people who are already hardcore fighting game fans, or people who are fans of the Fate games already.

For the former, the game is heavily technical and muscle memory-based, and it goes out of its way to train the player to play like such (rewarding them when they do). For the latter, other than the story (out of curiosity, does the PSP version have the story translated?), it's got a ton of small shoutouts, like some of the minigames (Kotomine eating mabo tofu) and certain moves working differently in special circumstances (Gilgamesh's throw animation changes when he's fighting Saber, and Shirou's EX Super changes when he uses it against Kotomine).

On the other hand, it was kind of amusing to see Berserker described as a Hulk-like beast (Heracles does get like that sometimes, doesn't he?). I'm glad they kept the original VN's sound clips for his roaring.

The text is translated as is some of the voice acting, but most of it is in the original language (which I prefer).

Cool, I didn't notice how some moves changed depending on the background story, awesome!

I just want a pokemon game where I can just pick a pokemon and actually play as the pokemon and fight in realtime rather then having to tell him what to do and rely on numbers to win..

I long the day where I can press X to make Charzard use his fireblast...... then unleash some crazy combo....

The problem I have with fighting games is that I've grown into a solo player over the years. Fighting games don't have a story whatsoever. I still remember the story on one of the Capcom vs SNK games WTF?! If they had a story and more than just 8 lame fights, the end, I would probably buy SSFIV. Also the learning curve requires a lot. Playing against the CPU blech. You could do it on easy but working your way up will just frustrate the crap out of you. Then training mode is boring and just because you know the combos well you still have to know when to execute them. The difficulty isn't really my main gripe, if I were given a reason to play I would have a reason to get better. The last fighting games I excelled in were Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Virtua Fighter 4. I kinda went crazy with trying to collect everything. Plus with music games, peripherals, and normal controllers costing as much as games. I really don't want to buy an arcade stick too.

I think the article interprets the definition of "fighting game" too narrowly, and as a result it only looks at the competitive multiplayer titles. It isn't that fighting games lack story and accessibility, it's that they're no longer classified as "fighting games" once they incorporate those elements. Consider a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum, or really, any modern game with a significant melee-combat component; many incorporate combos, and counters, and throws, and other techniques traditionally associated with fighting games.

When I read the title of this article, the very first franchise I thought of was Soulcalibur, followed by Street Fighter, then Mortal Kombat. The last fighter that blew my socks off is actually referenced in this article, and that's none other than SoulCalibur on Dreamcast. Everything else has really failed in comparison, and it's a shame. I think there just needs to be a new twist on the genre, otherwise it's just going to keep going downhill.

I actually feel that fighting games barely made any progress in the last 20 years (aside from a few gimmicks on the combo/juggle/special move sstem), and it's only starting to really go towards the "realistic" path recently with UFC Undisputed... and the Japan only game "Garouden Breakblow : Fist or Twist" (which is still exaggerated, but awesome):

http://www.youtube.com/user/sukotsutoclone2?feature=mhw4#p/u

Seriously, ever since I played both those realistic martial arts fighting games, I've gotten sick with the typical ones that rely on ridiculous juggles and combos (Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury... yes I've played nearly all those games and their iterations of each). I guess it's because I personally do martial arts, and want it to be represented realistically in games from now on, seeing as we now have the technology to start doing so. Thankfully, UFC Undisputed 2010 and EA MMA is coming soon, and I'm looking forward to those.

Sparcrypt:
Well.. I dont know what to tell you there, I played it back then and I play it now, the moves are pretty much the same difficulty level :)

That just means you rawk! ;-)

Seriously - the frame data has been published. The improved ease of move execution is not somehow subjective.

Items and stage hazards were done by Ehrgeiz before Smash Bros.

Def Jam: Icon attempted to do rhythm-based fighting to an extent; didn't turn out too well, but it was a neat idea.

Just sayin'.

Really good article. I'm glad BlazBlue is getting the credit it deserves. Things will have to change more drastically than what BlazBlue offered if it is going to survive beyond our generation however.

It's funny when you think about what you want and then look at some of the older PS1 classics like Bushido Blade 2 and its predecessor. Both had very good stories, decent learning curves, interesting characters, and basically did things that were very different form the direction that the genre was going in at the time.

I think risks are hard for game publishers and developers to make simply because of the immense amounts of money that go into each game. When you're given limited time and limited budget with the incentive that if you don't make a game that sells it will cost you your job...well it's no wonder stagnation is the rule of thumb.

Also wait, why is Blazblue getting so much credit? For what? Being a worse Guilty Gear? The crazy, comborific Fighter is an old concept at this point. Considering the game has less gameplay diversity then Guilty Gear.

I don't care what people play. You gotta be really into this shit to understand BB's failings and most people wouldn't care. Regardless of being fun, why is it getting any credit in this regards? Guilty Gear was ALSO fun. Maybe less of you have played it, but the point is that the game didn't bring anything new to the table. Even if the game was great (from the perspective of a serious fighting game guy like my self), it still wouldn't deserve credit for any of this. You're praising a game for being unique when it's just like the last 10 years of Japanese fighting games.

This gets to a deeper point. Who cares about originality and innovation? Blazblue is getting all this praise here just because no one is aware of knowledgable of all the games it's like. And really, who cares -- if you like the game, knowing this now won't make you like it less. The thing is to make GOOD GAMES. If you're into 1v1 competitive, balanced game play, fighting games are still very good games. If the games are boring to you, then you should realize the genre isn't for you, not cry for originality. Because you don't want originality, you actually just want the genre to pander to you.

EDIT: WHILE WE'RE AT IT, people talking about being 'save' and profits ALSO bugs me. We're not taking about Triple A titles here. Lotta games with big names can suck and make a ton of money When talking about smaller budget games, losing sales can almost directly equate to less people having fun. Most fighting games that try and 'innovate' tend to just unappealing to no one but a few casual players. The fighting scene ignores them, and your average player would rather get the new GoW game.

KayinN:

Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years.

Um... wtf are you talking about? Just cause they have an both have an uppercut move and one of them has ok fireballs? If you actually learned to play instead of hitting the buttons with your face, you would see that they their own unique pace and game stlye. Closest characters they come to is sol and ky from gg. But even if your right, why would it be bad to have standard, "pick up and play" characters that new people can get familiar with?
Other reasons BB should get props for is for the interesting drives. I.e. Tager's magnetism, Rachel's wind, and Carl's doll, Arakune's bugs etc. Those are extremely deep, and complex concepts to both use and defend against in a fighting game.
And what did SF4 do new... they stole roman canceling.

KayinN:
Also wait, why is Blazblue getting so much credit? For what? Being a worse Guilty Gear? The crazy, comborific Fighter is an old concept at this point. Considering the game has less gameplay diversity then Guilty Gear.

I don't care what people play. You gotta be really into this shit to understand BB's failings and most people wouldn't care. Regardless of being fun, why is it getting any credit in this regards? Guilty Gear was ALSO fun. Maybe less of you have played it, but the point is that the game didn't bring anything new to the table. Even if the game was great (from the perspective of a serious fighting game guy like my self), it still wouldn't deserve credit for any of this. You're praising a game for being unique when it's just like the last 10 years of Japanese fighting games.

EDIT: WHILE WE'RE AT IT, people talking about being 'safe' and profits ALSO bugs me. We're not taking about Triple A titles here. Lotta games with big names can suck and make a ton of money When talking about smaller budget games, losing sales can almost directly equate to less people having fun. Most fighting games that try and 'innovate' tend to just unappealing to no one but a few casual players. The fighting scene ignores them, and your average player would rather get the new GoW game.

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue. It's still a really good game. And dont act like GG is perfect. Need i bring up Slash ky, AC buri, Eddie being broken in every fucking game he is in, Bite loop, Slash Back being fucking pointless, Ac testy's forward exe beast (+9 on block, can otg, and can be FRC'd!!!) and badlands loops and Ac potemkin in general just to name a few things wrong with GG (Btw despite these flaws i still think gg is the best fighting game series of all time). Just fucking enjoy the game for what it is, and dont shit on another game for doing 'most' things right.

Ya, and the more props for GG the better.

Every single person I play sf4, ST, HDR, 3s, and GG with would quickly agree that we would like our games better if no story or single player mode was included and the developers spent all the extra time on character balance. BB was fun on release day, and I personally think the DVD should be a standard thing for future games in the genre, maybe even update it online with new tips/tricks/glitches in the meta.

My college life wouldn't be pretty without them. Days filled with class, homework, rowing at the gym, and then sleep would kill me. So I occupy my time with Street Fighter. I've made friends playing this game in my area. It's taught me good study and life habits. Seriously, success is a long hard road, with such painfully small increments of improvement you never really know how far you've come until you see a simpler differential equation, are told to code a program to solve a more trivial problem, do reps at a lower weight, or face a less skilled opponent at an arcade.

Point is, fighting games are a goddamn sport to me. I don't care if I don't make alot of money at tournaments. There's enough people there for me to find good competition.

I don't care if games like BlazBlue come out. I played for a few months and me/friends found it to not have very strong legs to stand on. I hope their good ideas (the brilliant DVDs for example) can be put to work to make my genre better. Teaching people how deep these games are in the first place brings in players. But I don't want to wake up to articles claiming my games 'aren't fun' and should be 'reconsidered and redesigned' because the developers are too busy working the red and blue hitboxes to give you much of a story, leaving oh-so-many reviews of 'Seth too hard fail game'.

Kurt Horsting:

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue.

I think the whole thing was to point out that BlazBlue is getting praise for things that it doesn't deserve, not that the game isn't/couldn't be good. I like Blazblue but I'm not going to kid myself that it's something revolutionary compared to Guilty Gear or other past games Guilty Gear has been inspired by.

I am interested why 2D fighters today are so obsessed about having super bars and all sorts of other bars instead of getting rid of them and trying to do what Hyper Fighting did so successfully. It'd be a completely different kind of game but I'd like to see it -- if I had the time and devotion, I'd be actually making it. Shame I absolutely suck at art.

And on a completely different note, the comment about fighting games having to not take themselves seriously is bizarre. I agree that not all fighting games should do that but on the other hand, not all fighting games should go all silly and wacky. Variety, is all.

Kurt Horsting:

KayinN:

Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years.

Um... wtf are you talking about? Just cause they have an both have an uppercut move and one of them has ok fireballs? If you actually learned to play instead of hitting the buttons with your face, you would see that they their own unique pace and game stlye. Closest characters they come to is sol and ky from gg. But even if your right, why would it be bad to have standard, "pick up and play" characters that new people can get familiar with?

Woooow, I assure you I've played this game and other games without just 'pushing the buttons'. The point is that shoto analogs have been different in various games. Now in BB Ragna and Jin are more Sol/Ky analogs (Mostly meaning Ragna is more divorced from shotoism), but whatever. The article screams "HOW ORIGINAL" when really, who cares? It has the same roots as everything else and you can still see them. It doesn't make the game magically better or worse. Then consider a lot of gimmicks in BB are just a reshuffling of GG gimmicks, well I think the originality thing is all overstated. Now, I personally don't give a damn about originality -- just give me something good and balanced and fun -- but I don't want to hear this sort of praise where it's undeserved.

Other reasons BB should get props for is for the interesting drives. I.e. Tager's magnetism, Rachel's wind, and Carl's doll, Arakune's bugs etc. Those are extremely deep, and complex concepts to both use and defend against in a fighting game.
And what did SF4 do new... they stole roman canceling.

This I totally disagree with -- well at least in regards to Guilty Gear. It's hard to actually deny that ASW doesn't do interesting stuff. REGARDLESS. Big concepts thrown on a button doesn't mean 'deep'. I would argue BB's lack of depth compared to Guilty Gear is there is no nuance. I can't speak for CS (I already gave up on BB), but in CT, characters were dominated by their gimmicks. That's like, the whole character. There is no depth or nuance. We just rub our gimmicks against each other, take some turns with some strings and BAM. Guilty Gear had the formula right. It had strong gimmicks combined with well developed characters. Instead of having short range loli-arm lolis, GG characters had the normals to make for some great footsies and zoning. It also never let gimmicks get to overbearing (unless you're Eddie). It had the right balance to create actual, honest to god gameplay depth.

To go with SF4, it really didn't need to be original. the SF formula already has a lot of depth going on in it's style of game. Trying to reinvent the wheel would probably of just shat on what they already had going.. Though that said, in the context of this article, SF4 shouldn't be getting much praise either. :P

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue. It's still a really good game. And dont act like GG is perfect. Need i bring up Slash ky, AC buri, Eddie being broken in every fucking game he is in, Bite loop, Slash Back being fucking pointless, Ac testy's forward exe beast (+9 on block, can otg, and can be FRC'd!!!) and badlands loops and Ac potemkin in general just to name a few things wrong with GG (Btw despite these flaws i still think gg is the best fighting game series of all time). Just fucking enjoy the game for what it is, and dont shit on another game for doing 'most' things right.

Ya, and the more props for GG the better.

Hey I hate the game and that's not going to change, but a quick googling shows me you're someone who plays and competes (also I think you're someone from DL, but I can't remember who). I respect that. Even then, the game has a scene and it's really not THAT bad (I mean, it's not SFEX or anything), so I can see people getting over the dumb stuff. You're right, GG had it's own share of BS, but I think the core of the game was more sound. But hey, play what you like and rock some heads. I just got annoyed at the undue overblown respect for it's "innovation" going around in this thread. Also I didn't expect anyone who plays beyond " hitting the buttons with your face" to post.

Also Slash Ky, while still the best character in Slash, is totally overrated. :P

While I do see the need for innovation in fighters, all genres need innovation to survive, but don't bash tried and true series like Street Fighter and Tekken. within their set of controls and game play styles have shifted with every installment. ask any true street fighter fan and they have a favorite series.(Street fighter 3 third strike for me)

Innovation just comes to fighting games slow due to the nature of fighter fans. any one who is a fighter fan played a fighting game and like it enough to look for the fighter perfect for them.

Innovation will come (just look at power stone, smash bros, Final Fantasy Dissdia etc) you just can't expect to see it from street fighter, Tekken, virtua fighter, King of fighters etc those games have a core fan base to please and they do often.

That's why I want at least some game companies to concentrate their efforts in making true/realistic fighting games instead of trying to find a market where the Tekken, Guilty Gear and Street Fighter games excels at.

ESP Games, in particular, gave me what is now my undisputed favorite fighting game of all time: Garouden Breakblow : Fist or Twist :P And games like UFC Undisputed and EA MMA now appeals to me more, as I can finally get my realistic martial arts fix. (After all, I'm kinda sick of seeing simple uppercuts launching the heck out of someone, then doing jabs to keep them in midair. That and combos are getting old on me, I want realism now).

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