You Hate, We Love

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Woodsey:
I thought you were going to find the tiny pockets of positivity in shit stuff, I didn't realise you were just going to intentionally take the moron's view of things:

Thanks to technologies like DRM, it is now virtually impossible for software criminals to crack a game, which means zero dollars are lost to piracy.

I chuckled.

Which was the whole point.

Golem239:
snip

Broken Image is broken. want to see your good cosplay example. I know the good stuff is impressive but the bad always outweighs it

Extraintrovert:

SonicWaffle:

Sure, anybody can throw on a bikini and call themselves Catwoman, but what about Big Daddy?

I throw on a bikini and call myself Big Daddy all the time. What's your point?

I think we have a winner.

You haven't even seen the photos yet!

Susan Arendt:

Woodsey:
I thought you were going to find the tiny pockets of positivity in shit stuff, I didn't realise you were just going to intentionally take the moron's view of things:

Thanks to technologies like DRM, it is now virtually impossible for software criminals to crack a game, which means zero dollars are lost to piracy.

I chuckled.

Which was the whole point.

I know, just when I read the intro and saw DRM as the first subheading I wasn't sure if you were actually going to try and find good reasons for it. That would have been a rather short section I imagine.

crotalidian:

Golem239:
snip

Broken Image is broken. want to see your good cosplay example. I know the good stuff is impressive but the bad always outweighs it

hmmm wonder why it's broken? comes up fine for me here's the link http://www.just-whatever.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/good-cosplay-6.jpg
on another note
yeah true bad stuff will outweigh the good stuff but then again we would have nothing to laugh at

Golem239:

crotalidian:

Golem239:
snip

Broken Image is broken. want to see your good cosplay example. I know the good stuff is impressive but the bad always outweighs it

hmmm wonder why it's broken? comes up fine for me here's the link http://www.just-whatever.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/good-cosplay-6.jpg
on another note
yeah true bad stuff will outweigh the good stuff but then again we would have nothing to laugh at

Holy flaming cow...is that just some random dude, or someone actually paid to be Hellboy? Because that costume is stupid amounts of amazing.

Ha ha, oh man, the DRM essay was hilarious and, if it wasn't abundantly obvious the entire thing was sarcasm intended to be read in the cheerful voice of someone who is absolutely insane and probably holding a knife oh noes, would have itself been grounds for becoming insanely angry. If any company stubbornly insisting on implementing DRM said things like that... oh boy would that blow up in their face.

It's actually quite affirming really, as it illustrates that our collective nerd rage about DRM is totally justified - the only way to spin DRM as something positive is to lie through your bloody teeth.

The other perspectives on polarizing issues were far more well-reasoned and less "obviously sarcasm and filthy lies", and on the whole I largely agree.

I'm surprised nobody tackled the things that seemingly everyone hates on this forum (i.e. Motion Controls and 3D. Every friggin' time these topics comes up, people come and bash them).

I myself didnt find most things in there that I disliked. Except for the "misuse" of quick time events.

I would say that horrible tie in's to games, like a horrible movie version of a game (probably made by a certain director that must be financed by satan. Its the only thing I can think of, since almost every game movie he has made has been constantly flamed) or the horrible game tie in for a movie. They are usually mediocre at best, and electronic vomit in disk form in another.

Sure, some game movies are good, maybe even great. But when 90 percent of them fail for lack of plot or imagination of writers, or they try to "reinterpret" so much that its just a horrible, horrible mess that is more like spitting on the game its supposed to be inspired by.

SonicWaffle:

Extraintrovert:

SonicWaffle:

Sure, anybody can throw on a bikini and call themselves Catwoman, but what about Big Daddy?

I throw on a bikini and call myself Big Daddy all the time. What's your point?

I think we have a winner.

You haven't even seen the photos yet!

He's right. Wait for the photos so your infatuation will blow up into full, deeply satisfying love. XD

Good stuff.

Preaching to the choir: I <3 good cosplayers. They make the conventions.

ike42:
Nope, still hate all those things...except cosplay. What is that exactly?

That's catgirls :)

Anyhow, why aren't facebook games smashed to pieces on there? Or are they just too guilty of a pleasure to bash?

Some of them work, but others really don't. DRM is good in theory but the current DRM is shite. I never hated Cosplayers or Ten Dollar, but there is no excusing Quick Time Events and Console vs Pc. Console Vs Pc arguments are stupid, besides, everyone knows PC is best anyway.
*EDIT*Just to clarify, Quicktime events can be done well, but it's unlikely they ever will be.

ike42:
Nope, still hate all those things...except cosplay. What is that exactly?

I'm going to answer this because the other person to answer it didn't understand the concept at all. Cosplay is when people dress up has characters from fiction, or non fiction if they like that sort of thing. So people who dress up has Iron Man, Masterchief, Darth Vader, Anime characters and all that shit are cosplaying.

Nobody said anything about Fanboys or Bobby Kotick. I guess there's no reason to defend those because Kotick is the chosen physical form of all evil, and fanboys are lifeless shells of people filled only with hate for those who don't agree with them.
Interesting article, though. A lot of it makes sense.

People hate cosplayers more than larpers? I was unaware there was any stigma against cosplayers atall; at least within the nerd community.

AngelBlackChaos:

SonicWaffle:

Extraintrovert:

SonicWaffle:

Sure, anybody can throw on a bikini and call themselves Catwoman, but what about Big Daddy?

I throw on a bikini and call myself Big Daddy all the time. What's your point?

I think we have a winner.

You haven't even seen the photos yet!

He's right. Wait for the photos so your infatuation will blow up into full, deeply satisfying love. XD

Well, something will blow up to become full and deeply satisfying when you see my photos...

SonicWaffle:

Well, something will blow up to become full and deeply satisfying when you see my photos...

Um....popcorn? That's the only thing that I have, unless you were meaning yourself.

Project 10 Dollar is a proper brilliant idea, as long as the money go where it's supposed to. I didn't know people hated it... =/

Wait, people hate cosplayers? I thought the hate was sent directly to the old guys cosplaying Sailor Moon? Oh well, I for one enjoy watching people's costumes and such, as long as they're well made and fitting.

Edit: Whoo, 400 posts, and it only took me a year (and two days) xD

Golem239:

crotalidian:

Golem239:
snip

Broken Image is broken. want to see your good cosplay example. I know the good stuff is impressive but the bad always outweighs it

hmmm wonder why it's broken? comes up fine for me here's the link http://www.just-whatever.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/good-cosplay-6.jpg
on another note
yeah true bad stuff will outweigh the good stuff but then again we would have nothing to laugh at

Ah. office firewall. get the same with YouTube vids!

Most of the article was good, but I have a few problems with it;

DRM;
It's good that the industry wants to protect itself against the dirty pirates, but... it DOES cause a lot of problems sometimes. I have a copy of Bioshock that I need to be online to install, and while that isn't always a problem, it is when I'm in University. The game can't access the server and I couldn't install it. Extremely annoying.
There are also ways in which DRM can be implimented extremely poorly (I'm looking at YOU, Ubisoft!) but if it's done well I don't have a problem with it. I love Steam, after all.

PC versus Gaming debates;

"I love games, and this is the best way to play them. Why can't you agree and see my side of the story so you can start playing the games in the best way, too?"

THIS is the very reason I hate those arguments. People who confuse opinion with fact. People who cannot see that some people might not agree with them, and doing so in itself isn't wrong.

There IS NO 'best' way to play them. Only ways which you as an individual prefer.

Everything else;
Well put together, actually. I didn't know people hated Cosplay full-stop though. Maybe it's because there's some really bad ones out there, but the same is true of everything and that reason smells quite strongly of Hasty Generalisation/Affirming the Consequent fallacies (All cosplays I've seen are bad, therefore all cosplays are bad/A bad cosplay is still a cosplay; That is a cosplay; Therefore it is bad.) to me. I've seen some pretty damn nice ones, actually. Besides, I can see how a good number of people would have fun doing it.

EA's project 10 dollar is a FANTASTIC idea if you ask me. People who don't want the little bit of extra content that comes with a new copy can still buy it used to save money, and the company still gets a little money from used game sales if said person decides they want it after all later on. I don't see the problem.

QTEs... well, as said in the article, it depends on how they're implemented. I absolutely loved Heavy Rain (the game that finally pushed me into getting a PS3) and the QTEs there felt pretty natural, but some other games are really obnoxious with them too.

I like how they're all actually kind of serious, except the DRM one. Very well played.

SonicWaffle:

Sure, anybody can throw on a bikini and call themselves Catwoman, but what about Big Daddy?

I throw on a bikini and call myself Big Daddy all the time. What's your point?

My mental EEEEEEYYYYYYEEEEEESSSS! AUUUUUUUGGHHH!

I can't tell if you just won an internet or should be crucified...

Wait, people hate cosplayers?

I...really can't imagine why...

What's wrong with fat guys dressed as anime girls ? That is so funny !

Well... That was some smarmy bullshit from Steve, wasn't it?

Greg's article was thoughtful and decent

Lauren made a good point, though missed that a lot of the vitriol about cosplay may be the Sailor Bubbas and Man-Fayes.

The other two I have no problem with. I don't care too much about either PC-gaming (until Civ V) or about QTEs, so I'll move on.

So... Let's focus on Steve.

Has the debate on the issue of DRM gotten to the point where we can't discuss these problems maturely and reasonably? I mean, Christ, it's just disrespectful to anyone who actually does think that DRM is an overall good, that piracy is theft, and that it's possible to believe in DRM as a form of copyright protection (and as a right of a group of people who made a product to actually profit from it).

I get that it's sarcasm, and meant to be funny, but the straw-man argument and reduction to absurdity of his damnation by faint praise is simply bullshit. If you can't man (or woman) up and actually debate the issue itself, please don't resort to petty "look how stupid I can make their argument sound, Fnar, Fnar". In fact, let me make the same logical fallacy in reverse:

We all know how evil DRM is, and that it's completely unreasonable for any games company to try to make a profit from the investment of time, manpower, and money, into making a product. Don't they know we're struggling to pay our bills, and they definitely don't need the money because games don't actually cost anything to develop. Something like Gears of War deserves to be pirated because any truly good games developer would want people to play their games, profits be damned. I know I do the same thing, I just tell my bosses they don't need to pay me, because I know that they would if they could, and that I'm doing a good thing by working for free. It's not like I have my own bills to pay, and I can always pick up a second job so I can provide all this work I do here for free... Unless they want me to work for free at my second job, in which case I should do that.

Pirates are wonderful freedom fighters, helping us shake off the yoke of oppressive copyrights, and make sure that all information is free. Or, at least, free to the consumer, but who cares about anyone else, right? And, by god, if I ever write a book, I hope they'll pirate it, just to make sure that I never have to worry about actually being rewarded for my time and effort.

Besides, there's no reason to try to make DRM work, because they'll just get around it, kind of like there's no reason for a law against murder, or to send murderers to jail, 'cause people can still commit murder.

Do you see how much you now want to slap my face?

That's how you'd feel about Steve's bullshit sarcasm if you didn't agree with him

Whoever edited this project probably should have put the DRM essay last. I was entertained by the tongue-in-cheek defense of DRM, and was then expecting the same from the next offering. It took a paragraph or two to realize the tone was serious.

That said, I would have liked to a smart person there on the Escapist staff to take a real look at the positive aspects of DRM. It's easy to say that DRM is indefensible, and I generally agree. However, it would have been quite the challenge to mount a legitimate counter-argument to the many rants already seen on this site. It's a shame no one could rise to that challenge.

Mr. Butts, I think I love you.
I was ready to unleash hell, but when I got to the end I was laughing. Well played.

And I like Project $10. I like DLC. It was never really a problem for me. The only time I had a problem with it was when it came on the actual disk, like in Bioshock 2. Its not downloadable content if its on the damn disk. Its normal, finished content you locked out you pricks.

dante brevity:
Whoever edited this project probably should have put the DRM essay last. I was entertained by the tongue-in-cheek defense of DRM, and was then expecting the same from the next offering. It took a paragraph or two to realize the tone was serious.

That said, I would have liked to a smart person there on the Escapist staff to take a real look at the positive aspects of DRM. It's easy to say that DRM is indefensible, and I generally agree. However, it would have been quite the challenge to mount a legitimate counter-argument to the many rants already seen on this site. It's a shame no one could rise to that challenge.

John Funk has done it in numerous threads. He's usually on the forefront of defending the rights of people who make products to actually get paid for them.

Gildan Bladeborn:

It's actually quite affirming really, as it illustrates that our collective nerd rage about DRM is totally justified - the only way to spin DRM as something positive is to lie through your bloody teeth.

The ability to make an argument sound retarded by ignoring all of the valid points on the issue and instead take it to an illogical extreme is not proof of the justifiability of the reverse argument, just proof that anything taken so far beyond the realm of logical discussion as to be silly is... Well... Silly.

Please don't mistake a straw-man for anything approaching a reasonable assessment of your opponent's arguments.

I'm a little confused on this one - The entire first page is poking fun at DRM but then the other 4 pages actually seem like they are trying to find valid reasons for having the things they discuss. Am I missing something or are all of these supposed to be sarcastic? Or do they just kinda switch back and forth about justifying the thing they are discussing?

DRM: There are a select few that are good, most are bad. Everyone likes Steam's DRM, because it is, for all intents and purposes, invisible to the average player. Which is how it should be. The rest is painfully infuriating, provoking the stigma that surrounds it today.

That's only for games, mind you; other media is a different story.

Cosplay: Again, some is good, most is terrible. It's pretty amazing to see the ones who put huge slabs of their life into these costumes, but Sturgeon's Law comes into play. Ninety percent of everything is crud. The costumes, the people, the attitudes, it's all one way or another for cosplayers in my experiences. Either it's a wonderful sight to behold or there is a douchebag with a skirt two sizes too small in your face.

Project $10: 'Greedy publishers' is the short and long of it. Spin it any way you like.

PC vs Consoles: Let the fanboys flame. One of them will flip out and get suspended eventually.

QTEs: I assume that people hate it when developers shoehorn them into a situation that does not warrant it, only serving to frustrate the player. Hate the player, not the game, yo.

Seldon2639:

dante brevity:
Whoever edited this project probably should have put the DRM essay last. I was entertained by the tongue-in-cheek defense of DRM, and was then expecting the same from the next offering. It took a paragraph or two to realize the tone was serious.

That said, I would have liked to a smart person there on the Escapist staff to take a real look at the positive aspects of DRM. It's easy to say that DRM is indefensible, and I generally agree. However, it would have been quite the challenge to mount a legitimate counter-argument to the many rants already seen on this site. It's a shame no one could rise to that challenge.

John Funk has done it in numerous threads. He's usually on the forefront of defending the rights of people who make products to actually get paid for them.

I've read some of those posts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Funk's position is anti-piracy, not necessarily pro-DRM. My point was that I would like someone to make a serious justification of DRM in its current forms without being glib or sarcastic. I don't think we've seen that here.

People hate Project Ten Dollar? Project Ten Dollar is great, and I worry about the mental facilities of anyone who hates it. If you buy used you get the same amount of content you always get when buying used, as you always had to buy any DLC content released for the game separately anyway. And if you buy it new, bam, free bonus content. There isn't anything to hate!

Dorkmaster Flek:
3. Bob has to plunk down another $10 to EA in addition to what he gave W&D's in order to fully use his game.

But you see, this is where your story falls flat on its face. Bob doesn't need the $10 DLC content to fully use his game. It's just added stuff, and the game plays just fine without it.

Seldon2639:
Well... That was some smarmy bullshit from Steve, wasn't it?
...
I get that it's sarcasm, and meant to be funny, but the straw-man argument and reduction to absurdity of his damnation by faint praise is simply bullshit. If you can't man (or woman) up and actually debate the issue itself, please don't resort to petty "look how stupid I can make their argument sound, Fnar, Fnar".

The DRM essay also rubbed me the wrong way, especially after I read the other essays. I feel like the path of least resistance was taken, and an opportunity for a serious defense of DRM was lost.

dante brevity:

I've read some of those posts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Funk's position is anti-piracy, not necessarily pro-DRM. My point was that I would like someone to make a serious justification of DRM in its current forms without being glib or sarcastic. I don't think we've seen that here.

Good point. I've done it on occasion, but it's more difficult to defend DRM due to the immediate backlash of "hurr, DRM sucks, fascist pig" crap. People find it difficult to distinguish between their emotional reaction (DRM has made my gaming experience more difficult, it's greedy, it's corrupt) from either a more balanced emotional reaction (sure, it's made my life more difficult, but how would I feel if I made something which took my time and money, and people just took it without paying), or reason (the less money developers have, the fewer games, and many fewer ambitious and envelope-pushing games we get).

It's difficult to defend DRM in a vacuum, because it's really nothing more than the justifiable backlash to piracy. Yes, it's draconian, but only in the same way that if someone broke into your house and took all your stuff, you'd probably want him to get as much punishment as possible. I see it as the gaming community's fault for not ourselves taking thieves to task and saying "go to hell, you idiots, it's your fault our gaming experience is worse". We should be vilifying them, instead we venerate them.

Zerbye:

The DRM essay also rubbed me the wrong way, especially after I read the other essays. I feel like the path of least resistance was taken, and an opportunity for a serious defense of DRM was lost.

I'll even offer my services as a defender of DRM, in case any of the editors would actually like to publish a real companion to the rest of their reasonable and well-presented defenses of aspects of the gaming culture which receive grief and admonitions.

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