120: The Angel in the Guild

The Angel in the Guild

"On the other hand, she's noticed that some male players seem to think anything a woman says or does is dramatic. 'Girls in games constantly have to be on guard to not look like they're causing drama - as their very presence sometimes creates it. It's like throwing meat to the lions, so to speak. If lions were competitive, hormone-enraged 20-something guys.' She says the volatile atmosphere encourages silence from women. 'Most of the women hide. They don't want the attention.'"

Melody Lutz speaks to Christine O'Reilly, a woman playing a man's game - and winning.


I have been an EQ2 guild leader since it started and I used to deal with drama. Finally, I just didn't care anymore. People were making the game into real life and I wasn't going to take it. If they had an actual in-game problem, I would try to help and solve it. But if it was some stupid drama between people and they weren't mature enough (which I've seen a good percentage of the MMO world NOT be mature enough) to deal with it themselves, I would let them take it to tells and see what happened from there. One of the people would just leave the guild, yes we raided also so that hurt us, but I'm not going to beg someone to stay and mediate between two people in a GAME...it's not real! When I came to this realization that people pay 15 bucks a month to have fun, I told everyone who was threatening to leave the guild (because it always happens in every guild, in every game) to just go. I don't pay for their subscription, so do what makes you happy. If that is leaving, so be it. If you want to talk it out, np, we can do that too.

I had 6 females in my guild (they were on Teamspeak, so yes, I know they were actually women), one being a raid leader, another an officer, and we never had problems. The women would tell the guys exactly where to stick it if they were taking any crap. Once that happened, there was never a problem again. I have to give credit to women who play MMOs. They have to mainly deal with a lot of stereotypical MMO guys and good lord, even I don't want to do that! :)

I've played online text-based games - MUD with player-run organisations much like, or perhaps even more important than the guilds of Everquest or Wow - for years now, and curiously I never saw this sort of behaviour. While women aren't quite as prevalent they're almost as likely to take leadership positions in-game.

More sophisticated audience, perhaps?

I have a female in my guild who always take raid leadership spots, and she's an officer too. She does a great job at it, and while from time to time we get drama in the guild, is definitely not the female's fault, but all guildies related to it, males and females. Males provoke as much drama as females, but they just do it in another way.

I'm male but also a Women's Studies Major, and this article was particularly interesting in light of performative gender theory (re: Judith Butler). Butler believes that gender is a performance (usually not a conscious performance, but one built on social norms), not innate. Here, we have quite a few males demonstrating emotional vulnerability and feelings, but they only feel comfortable talking to a female about it because showing emotion is supposedly a female attribute. However, the very fact that they have these strong emotions and feel the need to express them is clear evidence that males are just as capable of showing emotion as females.

It's good that this guild found an outlet, but in some ways Christine seems like a crutch. Instead, I'd like to see a culture where sharing one's feelings was normalized and dialogue was valued instead of all of it going on "behind the scenes." Drama precipitates when people don't attempt to talk to one another about their problems civilly and openly and, obviously, this guild never learned to do that (hence, their breakup after Christine left).

Anyway, interesting article. I like The Escapist's explorations of gender, identity, etc. It'd be nice to see more insight and less "human interest" journalism, though, in my opinion. But, of course, still doing a great job. Thanks.

Geez,another women in games article? Don't we have anything else to talk about? How about the games coming out? How about we talk about them?

Ok,I'm going to say this,right now,cause I'm sick of hearing it. Girls,when some guy is saying things you don't like,getting pissy doesn't help. Getting pissy being defined as "complaining,getting mad,and letting them get to you". They WANT you to get mad. That's WHY they do it. So getting mad gives them EXACTLY what they want. Don't let them. And the best way to do that is to understand the art of the comeback.

Lets face it. Games are one of the few places you can still ruthlessly compete with each other. One of the reasons games are so popular is you can do just about anything you want with almost zero consequence. As such,they do not need to be "cleaned up","play nicer",or "fixed". If you don't like playing with someone,don't walk away mad,destroy the bum! Nothing shuts up a sexist weenie like kicking his ass. Hard. You want to play with the boys,you have to remember you're playing with boys. And boys play hard.

They say poker is all about psychology. It's not so much about what cards you have so much as what cards you can make the other guy *think* you have. So it is with most competitive games. Everyone wants to get ahead. And if someone can make you leave the raid,it means more "phat lewtz" for them. They earn brownie points with the guild while you get stuck with a raid leaving demerit. So,since you gals love to go on about how good at psychology you are,I suggest you use it to your advantage.

For example,someone says "Don't be a pussy". Sure,you can get mad. You could complain to the GM. You could log off and refuse to help your guild. But who does that really hurt? Or you could turn it back on him and say "Don't be a dick". Yeah,that's right. It goes both ways.

Lets say a guy's giving you unwanted sexual descriptions. Well,you have several options open to you. You can ignore the guy if he keeps up. You can sit and take it. Who knows,he might say something interesting. You can complain to the GM. Or you can point out he's obviously a sex deprived virgin who's never known the touch of a woman and,as long as he acts like that,never will. There's also the option of pointing out you're busy and if he really needs to have sex,he should talk to his mom cause you hear she puts out for anyone.

The thing about games like WoW is they emulate war. And war requires you be able to withstand all kinds of abuse and punishment. It's well and good you're willing to connect with others to build a better guild. It's also important to not be seen as a pushover or someone's bitch. You have to be able to stand on your own. And others need to see that. So when someone says something you don't like,shoot a comment they don't like right back at them. Or challenge them to a duel. You don't need permission to defend yourself and you shouldn't need to go running to someone else to fight your battles for you.

Case in point,my paladin has earned a rep for being helpful,kind,and supportive. He's also tough as they come and will fuck you up if you piss him off. As such,he's both strong AND kind. And I think that's a status everyone should strive to achieve.

I agree with Merlynn. It's an issue, but it's really starting to seem to me like The Escapist has come up with nothing else to talk about.

Much as I liked the article, I'm going to have to agree it's starting to feel like we're beating a dead horse.

Then again, games media write about what's on gamers' minds, and until a comfortable norm is found, tricky gender issues are going to be on gamers' minds. If The Escapist feels comfortable slaughtering this goose, rather than publishing these increasingly predictable golden eggs, its philosopher-journalists could start searching for a solution....

Anyway, the subject of this article strikes me as very wise. By recognizing two facts - first, that people interact differently based on the sex of their company; and second, that most players are not mature enough to recognize that not every guild in the game is going to have the same kind of company - she is able to make things smoother for a lot of players. And if she wants to do that (evidently, at the end, she decided it was too much trouble), then more power to her.

But it doesn't escape the root of the problem: some people think that every guild in WoW is already a veritable gentleman's club, and some people think that every guild should be totally open. A third faction - I daresay the largest - exhibits extreme annoyance when these two factions come into contact with each other, producing conflict. Not to mention that members of the first two faction mistakenly accuse members of the third of being a member of the other of the first two.


The thing about games like WoW is they emulate war. And war requires you be able to withstand all kinds of abuse and punishment.

... but (if you want to take the "emulate war" stance) that abuse and punishment should come from your opponents, not your own team.

None of this is new. If you read anything about the challenges that femiminsm dealt with women entering predominantly male-dominated work places, you'll see the same stories coming up. The way Christine O'Reilly is dealing with it is by having all of the strengths of being a woman (e.g. better communication skills, having people open up to her), but not being allowed to have any of the weaknesses (e.g. being subject to sexual harassment, or being the default guild mother figure and spend extra time dealing with drama). That's a way that works on an individual level, but it doesn't change anything - she leaves a top guild, only to have to reprove herself to players again willing to dismiss her or reduce her based on her gender alone.

So yeah, this is still an issue that requires attention. MMOs shouldn't require woman to put up with behaviour that would be offensive in any other setting in order for them to be involved. It shouldn't need to become a pissing contest between you and the person who is insulting you (because that really creates guild stability, doesn't it?). It just goes to show that there is still a lack of respect in some MMOs for other players, especially along gender lines.

However, the one thing about this article I have to disagree with is that O'Reilly is "winning" in a male dominated arena. She isn't. Her guild broke up, she apparently hasn't gotten into another guild or three (by here choice or not) and is now waiting for a game that isn't yet released so that she and her BF can start a guild there. That's hardly a female victory story for the ages.

As a hardcore female mmo gamer since the days of muds, mushes and moos whose ran numerous guilds and currently plays in a WOW Pvp guild with several hundred.. I notice it is less and less unlikely to have other females in the guilds these days (real ones from the sounds on Ventrilo). I have never seen a guild that didn't allow females or one that seemed to think females caused drama any more so than males. That being said, I think it is very possible for people to attract drama-- ie..encouraging calls and personal issues and going to the gm with issues for others. Regarding "male offensive" behavior.. and someone stating MMO's shouldn't require women to put up with such-- I'd rephrase that to MMO's shouldn't make anyone HAVE to put up with such--and they don't. There are ignore buttons, gquit buttons and a x key that usually works if you're bothered by such whether you're male or female.

It's interesting, needless to say, how Christine fit into her guild by using traditional female roles as her strength within it. Certainly this article explores the oft mentioend issue of "women in games" at a deeper perpective that brings out the complexities of the problem more into view, and criticisms that the topic is somehow exhausted are, I think, unfair.

It's not the topic, but rather the quality of the entry into it that merits attention (after all, high numbers of articles have been written about MMO's, and violence in videogames, and yet, by and large protests that these are "overdone subjects" don't seem to come up as often..hmm..)

Furthermore, any claim that games are the last place where we can "compete without consequence" gets, to a certain extent, to the core of the problem. Men have had wide and open spaces to act without consequence or thought of their actions not just to women, but to each other, but of course, any thought that such consequences do not actually exist is a fantasy, if the game involves other players. Any competition that draws people in will draw some emotional investment, more especially if people knit themselves into social units such as guilds, wherein the dynamics of socialization and friendship become relevent. Tyr as you might, other people's thoughts and feelings are involved. Yes, it si just a game, but so is soccer, and any number of other sports where we do not accept people acting like egregious sexists or misogynists. Quite simply, acting in this matter to other people is not a polite or mature way of behaving, and has nothing to do with "fun", or at the very least represents a limits scope of fun, the type the bully has over his victim.

Insofar as women are entering gaming, it is hoped that the boys playing there are being influenced, if ever so slowly, to expand their horizons and grow up sufficiently to react to the presence of 50% of the population with some control and maturity, a bar so high we often except it of ten year olds.

I'd like to emphasize that a on online vent and teamspeak. Women need to talk more and get their members past the whole 'she is a women' stage. But I do encourage to have 'drama' in sexist comments said by the male members in the guild. It is a bad atmosphere to be in, and should be molded into something better.
Think of a coach training some students. "you throw like a girl," would be deemed inappropriate talk, AND very bad subliminal influence to the people on the team. Research shows that this can teach domestic violence in the future of these kids/men. Domestic violence is a very much reality, and should definitely be tamed as early as the verbal level.

A guild environment is very much so as that of a team; and will be a good opportunity for these people to get themselves into gear.
Don't let this culture stay, I know several campaigns that try to fight this; atleast here in Massachusetts. Like the "Coaching boys to men" seminars, etc. I think their website was endabuse.org. (I only know of them cause they did a seminar I attended at the hospital [MGH] I volunteer at.)
An example of their coaching seminars: http://toolkit.endabuse.org/Resources/CoachingBoys.html

Also interesting that this came from escapist, if you check out Whitney Butts escapist article OMG Girlz Don't Exist on teh Intarweb!!!!1 she talks about her experience in such women based abuse. But since that whining, she has highly integrated into her guild Shadow Syndicate [(ssguild.org) now found on the Mug'thol server; Horde] where now she is its guild master and is highly respected beyond that relative to her position. The guild chat can't be dictated to prevent such verbal abuse, because we know that impossible. But it is minimized greatly, and the environment is open for people to express themselves fully without any question in masculinity/or such. (yeah I was part of that guild; but quit WoW overall; quitting WoW is great way to boost your test scores I'd emphasize).

So I am saying, it is all possible. Just strive on and get there!

I don't think it's really women that cause drama, I think it's MMO's themselves lol.

But this girl sounds amazing. I want to know more. I want to learn from her, learn how better to manage a guild. This is an excellent article :D

There is nothing particularly amazing about being a girl in an MMO that is dominantly made up of males, just as there's nothing special about girls playing sports. Guys who play MMOs or any video game who is still shocked over, "ZOMG IT'S A GURL! DROOOLLZZ" really needs to get out more often. And the girls who go, "I have boobs, a vag, and I play video games. I'm SOOO COOL!" need to get over themselves as well.

Girls in games constantly have to be on guard to not look like they're causing drama.

I completely disagree with this statement. A girl who plays an MMO is going to act just as she does in real life -- if she's a drama-monger outside of game, then she'll be one in game too. If she's serious about the game, then she's going to put in just as much effort as any male to show that she's here to win.

There's nothing different in the virtual society than there is in a real society. People will cause drama regardless of gender. There are those people out there - male and female - who will blow up over the tiniest little things, and there are those who just don't give two shits about anything. As for the whole emotional thing, doesn't that seem to work the same way in real life as well? Guys don't go around sharing his emotional frustrations with an authority figure unless they feel comfortable with that. Why would it be any different in game? In any case, people are people, regardless of the medium of which they interact.

I don't know, maybe I'm being catty, but articles like this where girl gamers flaunt their abilities of being good at a game while being female drive me nuts. Yes, it's possible to be female and be good at something that is seen as a prominently male pastime. There are four females in my guild, including myself, and the guild has killed Illidan. Would it have made any difference if we were male? No, definitely not. Would it have made a difference if there were more females? Absolutely not. Gender isn't an issue, it's dedication and having a common goal.

You shouldn't get angry over articles like these. They all benefit towards sociological data for studies and such research. You DO learn from these things, even if it is not immediate.

Sociology is a great thing, you'll be required to take it in college (or earlier in high-school for some); its quite fun and beneficial.

Sociology is a great thing, you'll be required to take it in college (or earlier in high-school for some); its quite fun and beneficial.

Obviously you didn't take the same Soc class I did.

My response is apparently too long to fit into one "comment." :x Anyway here we go.

While this was well-written, I remain horrified after reading it. Good journalism *should* involve extensive research into the topic about which one writes, and contain more facts or at the very least more opinions than just that of -one- individual. If nothing else, you should have researched your interviewee's server and guild history with a bit more care. She is hardly a reputable individual.

I am a female player of World of Warcraft, and am a member of the guild which Ms. O'Reilly attempted to join prior to quitting. Our guild has many female players and does not think it anything special to be a girl in a video game. We have five active raiding female players, all very skilled, and all able to hold their own against the male players in the guild. It is nothing new to us to have a girl in the guild, or as an applicant. We trust our female players as much as our males to pull their own weight. She did not pull hers, and thus did not earn herself a solid raid spot. This was her main complaint. Unfortunately, Ms. O'Reilly seemed to expect special treatment as an applicant - something that was not given her. In the game, as in life, whenever people speak of "equality," there is always a risk of going too far and becoming "favortism." What she demanded of our guild was *not* equality. She wanted to be treated better than other applicants, and it was unreasonable.

Simply put, she was not a good player, and would have been declined based upon her lack of skill eventually, regardless of her sentiments about our leadership. Her attitude was poor, her skill was low, and she did not fit in with the guild. What she calls "specializing in the more covert, nebulous work of interpersonal conflict resolution" is what most people would refer to as a "guild mother." She wanted to join us as a "guild mother." We did not need, nor want one. If anything, she was actually marketing herself as a "woman" and not as a "gamer." If anyone was making her role "sexist", it was herself. You train people how to treat you. This is true in both life, and in game. Contrary to what this article might make one think - the internet is honestly the great equalizer. Real life looks, wealth, race, religion, gender, and occupation hold no influence. If you do your job, do it well, and still have a sense of humor - you will be given respect, regardless of what you may be in real life. If you do your job poorly, expect favortism for ANY reason, and have no sense of humor - you will not be. It is as simple as that. A raiding guild does not care if you are a woman, a doctor, a multi-millionaire, or a porn star. You earn your respect by your actions in game.

There are elements of truth in this article, which I will certainly concede. For one, guild leaders across the boards are not always good at HR. It happens. However, when we look upon it for what it is - a VIDEO GAME - it shouldn't be regarded to be as horrific as this article makes it sound. People play games for fun. They don't play them to make sure that everyone's sensibilities are not offended, and they don't usually go about trying to protect everyone from the insulting banter that often goes on within guilds. In real life, you cannot always just "leave" an insulting/offensive situation. However, in a video game, played for simple amusement - you have a choice. You can simply just log off. It is a game, and if you don't find it fun, or it is more troublesome than it is worth - you either find a way to make it fun, or you leave it. It's quite simple. I choose to sit online at nights for 6-7 hours at a time with 4 other women and 21 men. If someone seriously offends me or I am not feeling up to it, I can simply log out. Anyone - males and females alike - can do the same.

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There is also a darker side to some female gamers, one that I am fully aware that Ms. O'Reilly partakes in. Many women, perhaps who are unpopular, unattractive, unsuccessful or just plain bored in real life, finding themselves suddenly popular for their biological sex, are able to take advantage of the situation and use their femininity to gain in-game benefits. Sometimes men play female characters for this very reason. It is important to note that it is hardly the case with all female gamers, and sometimes only appears to be true when it is not. I have actually written an entire joke blog about it (worldofkuroe.blogspot.com). Unfortunately, for many people it is not at all a joke, but a reality. Ms. O'Reilly engaged in this sort of male player manipulation through one of our other applicants (who notably was not her boyfriend). As another female player and apparently a "confidant", she would talk proudly to me of how she could make this other applicant log in and out at will. I will not elaborate on her actions here, as it seems inappropriate, (although I might add a bit about this in my blog!), but I will say this: she was using him for her own cruel entertainment. While Ms. O'Reilly might complain about guilds that have "no-girl" policies, she unfortunately is a part of the problem. No guild wants drama, and tragically, that is precisely what she is selling. I regret to inform you that your "angel in the guild" is hardly an angel at all.

As for sexual harassment within video games (I will have to be careful how I word this, I suppose) - it happens occasionally, but more often than not most of these jokes are intended in good fun and humor. Is it sexual harassment when one guy in a guild calls another male a "fag"? Techincally, by real life work enviroment standards, yes. However, MMOs are a completely different community, contain completely different concepts of what is "mean", "harassing", or otherwise "inappropriate", and should not be regarded in terms of one's expectations for behavior within a community in the "real world." The average MMO player base is somewhere between 18-25 years old, largely male, and extremely competitive. For a comparison that a non-gamer might understand, it's like sticking a whole bunch of college football players in one large auditorium, tossing a few women in the room, and handing everyone a loudspeaker. MMOs give absolutely everyone a voice - by removing them. But the conversation, as you might imagine, is usually one of insulting/playful/competitive and occasionally cruel banter. The girls that find themselves thrown into this mixture have to make a conscious choice to either partake in the community, or leave it. It is *NOT* "unfair" - it is simply a community, and as with any other community or organization - if you don't fit in, you leave, or you tell people you don't like it and ask them to change, and anticipate that there is a chance they will not. If someone was asking Ms. O'Reilly if she was a "screamer", there is a good chance it was probably intended as a joke. If a male asks a male in the game "are you gay?", they don't actually expect an answer, nor want one. As a female you have to learn to either laugh at these jokes (as the males do), make a return joke (ex. "Oh yeah, my neighbors called the police once because they thought my boyfriend was murdering me"), ignore it, or, if it really offends you, you TELL that person: "Hey, I find that sort of question inappropriate, could you not ask it?" People are people, and don't always know what may or may not offend someone. Most "harmful" things spoken are in a sense of good humor, albeit a humor not everyone has a thick enough skin for. However, in general, when you ask nicely that people not treat you a certain way, even in a video game, more often than not they will comply. And if they don't, well - there is always /ignore, or the previously mentioned option of simply logging out. MMORPG is short for "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game." The idea is to partake a community outside of the "real life community." That is the game. If you do not enjoy the community, and thus the game, why play it?

As I said, you probably should have researched your subject a bit more carefully and interviewed more than one person for your article. Unfortunately your writing presents itself like an extensive poll when in reality it is only a case study of one female gamer, and a bad one at that. It is biased, uninventive, poorly researched, and tries to turn a player skill issue or perhaps a player base issue into a "women's right's" issue, which it is not. Ms. O'Reilly would do well to learn how to hit her "greater heal" button and move away from area effect damage, rather than doing interviews for ill-informed e-journalists.

- Azule, 70 draenei priest of Mal'ganis

To the author of the Article:

You based this entire article on lies and the bias point of view of Christine alone. I was an officer of the guild in mention and if you would like to see responses to this thread go here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2518021164&sid=1

As for what I replied with for those who want the quick recap:

To the OP:

If you would like to discuss girls playing WoW with a pathological liar, then by all means contect phetia. Over 95% of that entire article is flooded with so much BS that it isnt even funny. In reality, phetia had about 2% to do with Exordium and that is that she filled our GM's head with lies and self praise of how wonderful she is. Only two people in the entire guild even wanted here there...Matt(her boyfriend and the GM) and Oscard, a no name player we were forced to pick up when we reformed the guild because she getting on matts nerves so bad that he was going to quit the game if we did not.

To the sexual harassment portion of the article, for all the other nerds out there who would like to pinch her "bottom" go here: http://www.myspace.com/christineoreilly

She makes herself look as if guys were hitting on her, but what really happened was she would make sexual innuendo's to many of us in the guild such as "I already told matt that I would cheat on him for fenix, Evilsteve, Korva, and Shawty." Those are the only names that i can recall at this moment, but there were other such references along the same lines as well.

I could pick the entire article apart piece by piece if you would like. Feel free to log into MG at anytime and shoot me a tell. Sadly, the worst part about all of this is how she brings matt down with her and makes him look like a complete tool.

ps: If you would like to sample other written works(lies) of christine you can head of to http://www.retributionguild.net/ which was the ONLY guild she applied to after Exordium broke up. You may have to ask them to reopen the forum as public, but im sure they would be much obliged.

This article just annoyed me on so many levels. I am a female and the gm of a big alliance guild. I've been gm for a long while and we're doing good at the moment. The one thing that bothers me here is that she seems to take all this crap from man. Grow a backbone! Tell people to treat you right. I'm not the only female in my guild and I make it very clear that you need to treat girls with respect.

That means no cursing in gchat (gasp!). I don't care what people do in whisper I just want gchat to be a friendly and clean enviroment. I'm not going into a hissy fit when people curse but I am going to make it clear to keep those kind of jokes in whisper. And all 90 people of my guild respect me for it. I think man don't mind being in a bit better behaviour if there are girls around and I think that's how it should be. You don't talk to your friends the same way if your girlfriend is there. I even had people say they thought it was stupid at first but later saw the good side of it, there is no arguments in gchat or people getting offended.

Of course it helps being a girl as a gm. I can call man on the fact that they are being too much ego. And people will most often share their personal problems with me because I'm a girl. I have a boyfriend in real life so I don't need any attention from other males. I stop them when they got too flirty. We have other girls in our guild with a little fanclub but that isn't my thing. Girls play games, get over it. We aren't worse then boys and we aren't better. We are just playing the game like everyone else.

I can see the escapist has touched on a nerve here. I'm starting to wonder if girls simply feel victimised just because of the WAY GUYS AND GIRLS ARE.

This doesn't even apply to video games; for guys, derogatory comments and insults are basically friendly parts of a conversation that don't mean anything for any long period of time. Girls are a bit more likely to take it personally, and generally look to be supported by their peers.

I studied this sort of thing in my english class and I'm starting to realize that what girls may think they're feeling just because they're "girl gamers" is really just because they're girls. The same sort of situation might apply for just about any male-dominated social activity.

And I want to state this again...the escapist has enough discussions on girls in games. I'm not adverse to them, they were good discussion...just please try to find a new topic.

I think it should again be noted that she's taking the crap from the members of her guild *by design*. As such, her role becomes something like an unofficial Guild Counselor, it worked for her, she didn't seem to be unhappy, and the Guild was fine. I'm certintly not going to criticize her for the way she fits into a inherntly unfriendly environment. That being said, there are other valid choices as how to handle the situation, among them marievB's.

More generally, I think we get on dangerous ground when discussing the way "guys and girls just are." Not all girls will take joshing around that personally, and not all male friendships are like that either (more to the point, the fact that they are like that can be seen as a problem, from a certain perspective). It's certintly safe to say that some of what girl gamers face is certaintly diffrent qualitivily and quantitivily than anythign experienced by the men, and that this is *because* it is a male dominated space in which women are beggening to be more common, but are not yet normal.

In short, there is a tension in gaming communities much as there was in workplaces and other common areas that women began to enter, and that tension will eventually work itself out and people will learn how to play in such a manner that girls can be "just like guys".

Nonetheless, while it is working it out, its worth discussing whats occurring. Certainly, the fact that articles such as these draw response indicated to me that the subject is not per se "tapped out."

This is a well written article, but I fear the interviewee may have provided a false account of her game experience. My name is Christine and my World of Warcraft handle is Psychoicy. I was the other female in the guild had mentioned, although many may not know, because gender is not something I emphasize in game. She was not the only woman in the guild, and her contribution to that guild has been minimal. In fact, she rarely attended raids and was not well liked due to her poor performance as a player and also her involement in numerous drama, public conflicts between players. The man who called her after her raid would most likely be her real life boyfriend and not some random guy on the internet.

I hope this information helps.

Although it has been expressed that the topic of 'women in games' has been played out to death (sometimes I agree, in that the way it is looked at is done to death - but by no means do I think the topic itself is exhausted) - I think what would have made this article stronger is quite honestly, if the 'angel' in question had been male. Profiling a woman filling a stereotypical type of role in a guild is interesting in a way, though, in that it is probably something that happens with a lot of guilds (not mine, apparently, at least that I know of).

I do concur with goodpoltergeist, in that varied situations in MMOs cause drama, and it is most definitely not limited to women. DM makes a valid point as well here, "I'd like to see a culture where sharing one's feelings was normalized and dialogue was valued instead of all of it going on "behind the scenes."" Unfortunately, due to the relative ease of being able to just 'turn it off', it's pretty unlikely that's going to happen. Ah well.

Still a nice thought though.

Firstly, this is Boci from Band of Brothers (in AO) and later cofounder of the original Midnight Reveries (amongst others) and one of the more well known soldiers to "old school" players of that game, and a long time friend of Legion. Case in point, I still game with Legion to this day.

For all your efforts in WoW, which I cannot speak about, there is one glaring and obvious lie in your entire article/interview. Phetia (or oreilly as you call her here) is not, and never was, the only female in Legion.

This in itself may be a simple and insignificant thing to lie about, but it leads to the question: if one portion is a lie, could the rest be too?

The article didn't imply she was the only girl, but rather spoke about the fact of how she functioned in the guild *as a leader*.

I'm sure that the fact that the article didn't mention the other people there si the cuase of some giant conspiracy to lie you about everything and the article should be dismissed in its entirety. [sarcasm]


The article didn't imply she was the only girl, but rather spoke about the fact of how she functioned in the guild *as a leader*.

I'm sure that the fact that the article didn't mention the other people there si the cuase of some giant conspiracy to lie you about everything and the article should be dismissed in its entirety. [sarcasm]


It should.

Why? Even if we're to grant that the story is fiction, that is, made up, even fiction based on certain themes can elucidate a point about a culture or subculture. This article does that.

Certaintly, it is not as if the fact that women use various coping strategies (one of which is demonstrated in this article)to "fit in" with a male dominated culture with occasionally heavy sexism is some sort of radical idea with no grounding. I'm honestly confused as to why you would doubt the article. It doesn't even seek to make a point so much as describe a situation, so disagreeing with it per se doesn't quite make sense to me. You can, of course. argue that gaming culture is not sexist..if you so wish.

Honestly, its tempting to attribute the hostility I'm reading in some of the responses here (this article is full of lies! dismiss it! ignore it!) as defensiveness born out of sexism(and yes, one can be sexist against women even if they are female).

The article didn't imply she was the only girl, but rather spoke about the fact of how she functioned in the guild *as a leader*.

I'm sure that the fact that the article didn't mention the other people there si the cuase of some giant conspiracy to lie you about everything and the article should be dismissed in its entirety. [sarcasm]


I just read through the article and these comments, and if you did to, she did make a point of actually being the only female in both her AO and WoW guilds. So if she needs to make a point of something that is obviously wrong on both accounts (according to comments in this thread), it sort of makes you question what the truth is in the rest of the article. I work alot with people and see quite a lot of people take their own achievements and blow them out of proportion to what is the reality. Most of the time, they actually believe it to be true, but that doesn't make it so. I see many similarities in the way this lady describe herself and her role in a community. And that is why it is interesting that she lies about being the only female in these communities, and hence making her role more "special" than it is and thus using it to explain how she was THE mediator amongst the males. On the other side, it could be that she is telling the objective truth, in which case she should stop playing games and move into councelling or diplomacy, as she would surely have very good skills in those areas according to her own account. Personally I am very sceptical to how this interview is conducted, and to the truth of what this person is saying about herself and her role in the community.

haha i got to show liloqui this thread when i get home

It's interesting. It's possible that, Christine has a point of view on the issues that is worth understanding. But it doesn't really come through that way. In light of some of the comments made, it seems as if it were a matter of perspective, or possibly as if she were defensive about this. Or that those writing the comments are feeling attacked and defending themselves. I wouldn't venture a guess as to who is telling the truth, and who's perspective was more truthful.

I have something of a disregard for whether or not someone is being dramatic, and in fact find the whole online world pretty dramatic. One claiming another to have been such is drama at this point, and is fucking exhausting to hear about, at any length. There are so many scuffles and little skirmishes that turn into huge distortions no matter whose side you've seen. And people's perspectives seem to be determined by what they want to be seen as often.

Posting in a thread with Fenix and Psychoicy

Look women just logging into a video game is going to cause drama. MMO's are filled with men who fail with the female sex every day. Half of them don't want to login and be reminded of real women. The other half get silly and flirt hardcore with players they know are female. I'll be the first to admit, it's not easy to ignore flirting. I liked being flirted with just as much as any other girl. But this makes that first half pissed off that it's detracting from the game, and honestly it does detract and make a weird atmosphere for some people. But articles that exonerate females for "overcoming MMO sexism"? Give me a fking break. She played you like a fiddle when detailing this article.

But in all honesty, Psychoicy hit the nail dead on the head. I didn't really know Phetia, but Psycho's a hella smart woman and someone I got to know pretty well in the game; her post has more validity than probably anyone else's.

I am one of those sexist guys who doesn't enjoy females in my guild because of the drama they create. Not always from what they say or do but over the problems they create by their mere presence. Generally female gamers have boys falling over themselves just to please them which presents challenges for any leadership to work around. And if you think I am wrong, well go to any comic, video game or car show where "booth babes" are to see my point. To inject one into any hardcore game guild, you are going to find guys where this may be their only chance to talk to a woman.

But, I do know when to recognize leadership capabilities of one. Perhaps you should look outside of the carebear game of WoW for your test subject next time. There are plenty of hardcore gamer girls leading guilds in hardcore games. Like the leader of Murder Herd in Darkfall Online. She has created a cult following and didn't give into the "I'm a girl so I'm special" role. Although her members have propped her up to that level, she doesn't ask for it like the one in this article obviously does. Hell until I heard her in an alliance vent, I thought it was a man leading them and all of the buzz was just a troll attempt of the official DF forums.

And after reading the comments it seems the writer failed to do any real research outside of the info she took from her subject. That's like writing a review on a game by only listening to a developper talking about it. This article is trash and unacceptable. Perhaps the writer should go to MMORPG.com where that sort of garbage is expected and not for the escapist.


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