I'm going to have the joy of playing Devil's Advocate, because I love it.

The "Internet Hate Machine" is a funny phenomenon but I don't think it is primarily directed at women. I think a small the media campaign comes to the defense of the female victims more often than not in a phenomenon similar to a Missing White Women Syndrome which in turn exacerbates the issue due to the increased publicity. For every Jennifer Hepler I can give you a David Gaider and for every Dina Abou Karam I can give you a Stanley Woo.

It doesn't make it right but it explains the issues, Phil Fish is a perfect example of a dude spotlighted by the media who received an inordinate amount of hate for his opinions. That's why certain members say ignore the hate and stop the discussion because it'll fuel the hate. Every "E-Celebrity" receives some portion of hate from a community on the internet (even our own Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman) so imagine if the initial hate on Anita Sarkeesian didn't get publicized by the media?

It's food for thought, take of it what you will.

We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, its not going to change the nature of the internet.

Sorry Jim, but we do need to talk about it, ever aspect, I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

shephardjhon:

Jimothy Sterling:

Church185:
While I agree that it is terrible these women are being harassed for simply being born the wrong gender, I can't agree with the rest of this video. I'll verbally support the developer till I'm blue in the face, but I'm not going to throw money at a project simply because the creator was harassed by trolls and crazy people. Stuff like that could be too easily staged. That isn't a point made in the video, it is just something I wanted to bring up. I also don't see anything wrong with simply denouncing the people harassing these women and moving on either. Just because I don't take the time to police the internet, doesn't mean that I'm contributing to this behavior or that I condone it. These devs don't deserve to be harassed, but you paint the gaming community with a wide brush that I don't appreciate.

You didn't disagree with a single thing in my video. You seemed to agree with it all, then made up new arguments to disagree with.

I didn't tell you to give the dev money OR police the Internet. Just maybe show some support, or at the very least, shut up as opposed to trying to make sure your *own* back is covered by trying to draw a line between "real gamers" and the harassers, as if the harassers don't talk about games online just as much as the rest of us and contribute to the exact same wider community.

That's what this episode was about. Not about policing or financing, but about - at the VERY least - not instinctively looking out for number one when somebody's been victimized.

But THOSE harassers weren't on the Escapist, or any other gaming site I know of. So NO they don't contribute as much to online gaming and its discussion as we do.
They have specific type of sites, they say what they want to say and YOU make it look like WE did it.

You know, I really REALLY don't get this attitude. Every time Jim makes a video about sexism and harassment, people get defensive and ask Jim why they're accusing them of sexism. He's not, in fact he's saying only a minority of gamers do this. The problem he was trying to point out is that people either like to victim blame the person being harassed, saying that she should either not feed the trolls or grow a thicker skin, trivializing the abuse she just received, or just say that these people aren't real gamers and that harassment doesn't really happen in the gaming community, once acting like there's no harassment in the community, even though there is, and allowing it to go unchallenged. And I did very much see plenty of people with this attitude while debating about sexism in this community.

FogHornG36:
We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, its not going to change the nature of the internet.

Sorry Jim, but we do need to talk about it, ever aspect, I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

You know, if you're going to make claims like that, some evidence would be helpful. You just can't make claims like that with nothing to back it up.

I briefly misread the title as the wacky harassment blame panda. That's a bit of an old South Park reference, I thought, until I read it properly.
I like my version better. :p

On topic, there will always be internet trolls. How best to deal with them?
It can be difficult to ignore them, but responding can bring more abuse. Obviously if someone is invading your life, as they did in this case, they should be reported.
It's the culture that's to blame, but changing culture takes a long time. Instead of trying to pretend these trolls don't exist, should we respond in kind and attack them, making them outcasts?
They feed off the attention we give them, but they still get enjoyment out of it even if we ignore them.
The only way to truly get rid of this is to continue talking about the problem. If enough people speak out and take the stance that this behaviour is unacceptable, then this viewpoint will become the status quo and incidents like this will begin to reduce in frequency.
At least, I hope so. Otherwise I'll be a sad panda.

I'm not sure I agree with some of this. Certainly harassing women for being women is wrong, we're all agreed on that. But I can't help but feel 'sexual harassment' is such a trump card to play. For example, a woman makes a bad video game and is criticized for it(something that happens to men too) and then plays "Well I'm a woman, therefore you're sexist." argument and boom, completely immune from criticism.
Are there sexist online? 100% absolutely. But is every single solitary criticism leveled against a woman by definition sexist? I certainly hope not. To me that sounds more offensive then not. That women NEED to be protected, that they can't defend themselves and even the slightest bit of negative reaction hurts their feelings.
Again, not defending those who are sexist, but I did follow Zoey's greenlight steam fiasco and yes, some people were horrifically sexist. But then there were others who thought Depression Quest looked bad. Who offered legit, non-gender based criticism, offering opinions and pointers about the game itself. And yet they were being flagged for review and deletion by Admins. I can't help but see a parallel between this and Youtube's infringement crusade. Every video is stealing game footage and every criticism is sexist.

bringer of illumination:
Remember everyone, when Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling gets harassed it's Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling getting harassed.

When Anita or Zoe or whoever gets harassed it's "women" being harassed.

Because reasons.

Yeah well here's the thing. I doubt Cliffy B, Phil Fish or Jim Sterling ever got harassed because they were men.

So we come to the same problem we always come to when we talk about gaming community or any other community where members can easily be self proclaimed. Two such communities that are highly relevant here are Feminists and MRE for example. And while those can have some semblance of control and/or reputability video game players have none. Let+s be honest, unless we go in with torches and demand that everyone logs in with their unique identification papers that are their real life identity there is nothing we can do about it. Best you can do is ignore and weed out hoping that undesirables will give up before you do.

Internet is anarchy where nothing almost is sacred and almost no laws apply outside laws made by people and companies that cornered little bits for themselves and where they are virtual gods. And it should stay that way. It's great place suited equally for exchange of groundbreaking ideas and spewing of most despicable vile mouth diarrhea. And you will encounter both no matter who you are. Of course not in the same amounts but then again, not everything hits on the same level. I stand when people accuse my dead relatives of invading land where they lived for generations and it hurts, hurts really bad. And I hate it. And that person shouldn't be saying that. But that's the price all of us are paying for freedom to say whatever we want. And I know some things I say are seen as equally vile and hideous by others. But I am free to state my opinion. And if whoever is code keeper of that place has the power to shut me up and/or remove me from there entirely. If it wasn't like that Internet itself would be far worse stinking pile of Hippo excrement.

I'm seeing too many parallels between this and football hooliganism. Are all soccer fans responsiable for the actions a small, yet noticeable, minority take? If you like Arsenal are you liable for the activity of every Arsenal fan?

I loathe this whole "social responsibility" thing when it comes to people who neither represent me or my views behaving badly. Somehow it's my fault I'm not committing my personal resources into fighting against what are essentially ghosts and phantoms. The only way to actually "fight" this is to encourage such measures as SOPA or whatever.

If you value privacy on the internet you have to accept that this kind of thing is going to happen. People with zero accountability are going to behave like people with zero accountability.

Zachary Amaranth:

ConanThe3rd:

However, as the two popped up on screen, the implication is that Dina (Mighty No. 9 CM) and Ms. Sarkesian have nothing to answer for, that they are similarly two individuals who were attacked because of their gender and as such case closed, nothing to see here, go away.

So explain, then, what they committed that made them "deserve" this treatment.

Oh good on you, you're using the ol' "They deserved it, they were dressed like ho's!" play. Sadly, that's not going to stop me none.

In any instance, there is some point where both Dina and Anita are in some degree responsible. And yes, responsible. Not deserving of anything other than the same that a male who had done the same would be levied;

In the case of Dina - Her comments she made prior to her appointment as MC of MN9 could have done nothing less than made a community which has had a lot of utter bullshit flung their way since about '10 act in a manner that could have only resulted in the scrutiny she was put under following her appointment. Yes there's an element of harassment, there is also an element of not looking where you leap.

The case of Anita - See every sensible levey on her productions; Budget doesn't reflect work, plays fast and loose with her evidence, refuses to engage in "conversation" becuase that might mean that her comments would have to be challenged, etc etc so on so forth. If she was male, I'd be saying the exact same thing.

erttheking:

bringer of illumination:
Remember everyone, when Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling gets harassed it's Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling getting harassed.

When Anita or Zoe or whoever gets harassed it's "women" being harassed.

Because reasons.

Yeah well here's the thing. I doubt Cliffy B, Phil Fish or Jim Sterling ever got harassed because they were men.

and does that not apply for female Creators/Journalists who have acted in manners similar to the trio mentioned? Or do they get an out because they're women?

If my time on the internet has taught me anything by defending this woman, Jim just wants to have sex with her and it totally white knighting it. That's the thing about some people on the internet. Defending a female doesn't have anything to do with wanting sex. It is about being a decent human being. Unfortunately, that's just how the internet works. You have to dig through the shit to find the gems. That's what the people at Screw Attack and Rooster Teeth do, and they'll tell you, there is a lot of shit on the internet. If they focused on the negative comments they would have given up, but it is the 10% of positive comments that keep them going. Angry Joe will probably tell you the same thing.

Oh, and the girl who is the community manager for mighty no. 9 needs to be fired. She lied to and insulted the community and the community doesn't like her for it. Nothing to do with her being female, she is simply not suited for the job.

erttheking:

bringer of illumination:
Remember everyone, when Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling gets harassed it's Phil Fish or Cliffy B or Jim Sterling getting harassed.

When Anita or Zoe or whoever gets harassed it's "women" being harassed.

Because reasons.

Yeah well here's the thing. I doubt Cliffy B, Phil Fish or Jim Sterling ever got harassed because they were men.

i don't know about Zoe, but what I read about Anita was far overblown. There was really moronic and insulting posts, but reality is that valid criticism of her work, which is bellow poor by any standard, is thrown on the same pile and that is just disgusting. It's politic of no criticism allowed and that is something NOBODY with the right mind should support.

captcha is "no means no". Cute :D

I had to look up "Link's Crossbow Training."

On topic, you know, I'd rather be a white knight than a dick. It's simple as that.
I mean, fuck! If these guys are *really* the minority, then we have no reason to fear them, because we outweigh them. If those who disagree all stood up, these small-minded, obnoxious bastards wouldn't be able to get these campaigns of chimpanzee-style shit-throwing off the ground because they'd be too busy trying to defend their own stupid actions. Why don't we give it a try?

I honestly don't give a shit about this male/female or feminist bullshit because it's not important. When we create an atmosphere where an earnest endeavor to create unique works of art that employ different perspectives from the normal, we're hurting everyone, because it sends a message that we don't want something new and interesting. It will hurt every game developer and therefore it really is the concern of every gamer in our community.

I might have had to avatar-ise that Banderas, Jim. (I'll put it on after Christmas)

As far as the rest of the video goes, I agree with what's been said, and try to speak up about shit like this as much as possible, but the problem is that there is so much of the shit that trying to tackle it all once is impossible.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help as much as possible though.

1. discussing on the internet? lol
2. yes i see your problems with the community and the "good" people that stand aside (i.e. me)
3. what i'm missing here is an idea for me to start on. to rebuild to invent and so forth because basically it's "this sucks and you are a part of it" and well yeah i know that... but i don't know what to do

i really love all your work here on the escapist but i'm sitting here and i "have to" listen to (i obviously don't HAVE TO but you know...it's monday i look forward to your video :) ) this shit and then i'm moved to be part of the problem with out any kick in the right direction

i visit 4chan. wan't me to go there and tell'em "you guuuuuuys that's mean"? yeah.
i am part of the problem because it's the ecosystem i "live" in? well guess what i'm on earth and ppl kill other ppl. my fault too? what am i supposed to do?

it's easy to point out that everyone is part of the problem sure but so are you jim and you make these videos against horrible ppl and buisness politics and guess what i'm afraid you have to keep making them 'cause i don't see it working so far.(and i WANT! you to keep making these and i show'em to everybody talking bullshit about any of the topics you touched because you are my...moral compass in the interwebz or something)
so i'm not asking "what are you doing to fix it?" i'm asking what am i supposed to do?
if i encounter bs i'll call it out and i'd scream in every idiots face till their ears bleed but those are internetbullys and those ppl don't show who they are so i can't confront them in a way that would MATTER.

i feel this is "rant-y" but seriously i'm somewhat pissed just being called part of the problem if that could be applied on everyone in way bigger scale.

well i have a solution and it would work if humans wouldn't be humans....we'd just all have to stop being idiots/dicks/racists and so forth but trying to change these people in real live? it's like punching a wall
fuck people i guess.

shephardjhon:

erttheking:

shephardjhon:

But THOSE harassers weren't on the Escapist, or any other gaming site I know of. So NO they don't contribute as much to online gaming and its discussion as we do.
They have specific type of sites, they say what they want to say and YOU make it look like WE did it.

You know, I really REALLY don't get this attitude. Every time Jim makes a video about sexism and harassment, people get defensive and ask Jim why they're accusing them of sexism. He's not, in fact he's saying only a minority of gamers do this. The problem he was trying to point out is that people either like to victim blame the person being harassed, saying that she should either not feed the trolls or grow a thicker skin, trivializing the abuse she just received, or just say that these people aren't real gamers and that harassment doesn't really happen in the gaming community, once acting like there's no harassment in the community, even though there is, and allowing it to go unchallenged. And I did very much see plenty of people with this attitude while debating about sexism in this community.

Then actually PUNISH those people, BAN them from games or sites and don't ask us to do things we can't. Scolding those particular people does nothing but scolding us in their place angers us.
I actually loved that Microsoft decided to ban people swearing on the XboxOne. Do that and harassment will come closer to ending, scold us and I think it will increase.
Steam should BAN the harassers and take their money instead of allowing them to make more people angry.

Standing up and making it clear that we won't tolerate the crap that they do? Exactly how is that something that we can't do? It's very easy to do! I went to Steam and typed out a few paragraphs on how what happened to her was disgusting and gave her my support. Took me ten minutes.

I actually don't like what Microsoft is doing, simply because while I think it should be banning harassers, there's a difference between that and simple swearing. Steam does delete comments that are abusive and I'm glad that they do, but the whole point of the video is that gamers can't just sit around and pretend that this isn't a problem we can't do anything about. We can do something. Even if it's extremely tiny, we CAN do something. The first step would be to stop victim blaming and pretending that the gaming community doesn't have sexist elements to it..

DrOswald:

3. Her art is bad.

I half agree with this one. I have seen a couple of her pieces of art and I really don't like her style, especially not the gender swapped Beck (the main character of Mighty NO. 9) she made. But if she can suppress her own style for what the project needs she is technically proficient and will be a fine employee.

Actually, dumb question, was that supposed to be a gender swapped Beck or just her in a Beck costume, cuz that is more akin to what probably was going on there (and is something that Japanese staff on things will do, draw themselves as characters).

My call on it is that she wasn't careful about what she said and that is what got her into "trouble". Replace the gender and it does nothing to solve the ur problem.

erttheking:

FogHornG36:
We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, its not going to change the nature of the internet.

Sorry Jim, but we do need to talk about it, ever aspect, I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

You know, if you're going to make claims like that, some evidence would be helpful. You just can't make claims like that with nothing to back it up.

Eamar:

FogHornG36:
I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists

Weird, I must have missed that meeting...

(they have done it before)

Source?

Sure i can, this is the internet, but here you go anyway, i can find only one good one because im too lazy to keep looking.

http://imgur.com/gallery/Kyc6fY9 (thats the just of it)

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=4731 (but this is the news article)

Not saying all feminists are bad, but not all feminists are the same.

Can someone please define 'gaming community' as it relates to this instance?

That term gets thrown around so much in these discussions so I can only assume there's some official, exact definition of this?

Because all I see is a multitude of smaller communities with vastly different attitudes.

The argument in the video was made that people cling to some false idea that 'these people aren't representative of the wider community' and that we are tolerating this behavior by stating as much. Except there isn't a 'gamer community'. The people who 'tolerate' or encourage that kind of behavior are completely removed from the crowd who are so adamant about bringing the issue to the forefront. Just like they in turn are far removed from people who are too busy playing games to actually pay any attention to internet drama at all.

For example: The escapist forums are a completely different beast compared to the competitive gaming community I take part in.

Are both communities centered around gaming? yes. But that's like saying a group of democratic senators and Marxist rebels from south america are all just 'Leftists'.

ccdohl:
Bullshit. I have no relation to the harassers. Gaming is a worldwide hobby now and the idea that we are a single community is absolutely nuts. I don't even consider myself a part of certain communities within the games that I play.

+10 this.

Gamers are not a hivemind and the harassment isn't even taking place on the Escapist.

Jim may like to take all the responsibility for the behaviour of others, but we're not responsible for the nasty things that we only just heard about, being said to this developer by people we don't know, in places we don't visit.

There is nothing we can do about this and the sort of people who harass developers over the phone really are the strange aliens Jim doesn't want us to call them. Those are some crazy fuckers and not even internet trolls do that shit.
This is not the fault of gamers. Crazy people simply exist and we're not the police. We're not even moderators.

FogHornG36:
Snip

Ok. I'm well aware that there are feminists who are bad like that. I didn't hear of this though, thank you for pointing it out. I was asking for evidence that it was the case with the Depression Quest fiasco.

shephardjhon:

Jimothy Sterling:

Church185:
While I agree that it is terrible these women are being harassed for simply being born the wrong gender, I can't agree with the rest of this video. I'll verbally support the developer till I'm blue in the face, but I'm not going to throw money at a project simply because the creator was harassed by trolls and crazy people. Stuff like that could be too easily staged. That isn't a point made in the video, it is just something I wanted to bring up. I also don't see anything wrong with simply denouncing the people harassing these women and moving on either. Just because I don't take the time to police the internet, doesn't mean that I'm contributing to this behavior or that I condone it. These devs don't deserve to be harassed, but you paint the gaming community with a wide brush that I don't appreciate.

You didn't disagree with a single thing in my video. You seemed to agree with it all, then made up new arguments to disagree with.

I didn't tell you to give the dev money OR police the Internet. Just maybe show some support, or at the very least, shut up as opposed to trying to make sure your *own* back is covered by trying to draw a line between "real gamers" and the harassers, as if the harassers don't talk about games online just as much as the rest of us and contribute to the exact same wider community.

That's what this episode was about. Not about policing or financing, but about - at the VERY least - not instinctively looking out for number one when somebody's been victimized.

But THOSE harassers weren't on the Escapist, or any other gaming site I know of. So NO they don't contribute as much to online gaming and its discussion as we do.
They have specific type of sites, they say what they want to say and YOU make it look like WE did it.

People can have various accounts on various websites. Those people were mainly from Wizardchan. That doesn't mean those same people aren't browsing, and participating in other communities like Kotaku and Destructoid.

I find it sad that this even needs to be said.

erttheking:

Standing up and making it clear that we won't tolerate the crap that they do? Exactly how is that something that we can't do? It's very easy to do! I went to Steam and typed out a few paragraphs on how what happened to her was disgusting and gave her my support. Took me ten minutes.

let me try to be the least dickish with this as possible.

so did it help?

seriously posting on the internet to "stop" idiots from the shit they do is like if you'd pray or just walk outside and scream these messages.
yes this is possible yes it might have an effect on 2-3 people but guess what these people had that mindset before you posted anyway.
and no i don't say just stop it it's no use but i really gotta ask what do think will it do to the whole subject and people that act that way?
if these people don't have to FACE someone that'd know their name and face after the stupid shit they said there is no need for ignorant people to read understand or adapt to what you me and the whole of the escapist might have to say on this.
and i really don't want to attack you but it's just....really it's "those poor kids in africa" "what do you do to help?" "i pray every night"....thanks a bunch

and again i don't want to attack you if you do feel i did please attack me right back i'll take it and i wont start a flame war. vent on me in the pm system i'll read it. what ever
i just got no other way of expressing this. (english isn't my first language...)