Dark Souls Six: Darkest Souls

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Poison face darts?

What are you, a fukin kasul?

Get on mah fukin level scrub.

I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

Hm, i've always wondered how hard is DS compared to Ninja Gaiden or the easier Binding of Isaac or Super Meat Boy?

Adeptus Aspartem:
Hm, i've always wondered how hard is DS compared to Ninja Gaiden or the easier Binding of Isaac or Super Meat Boy?

Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 10 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Given that, it's easier than a game that requires constant high level combat technique like Ninja Gaiden. It's also easier than Binding of Isaac because everything is always in the same place and you'll never be screwed by random dungeon. I guess you could sort of compare it to SMB, but it's not nearly as twitchy.

So basically, people are confusing its opacity for difficulty.

Edited: Changed 2 hours above to 10 hours. You're probably not going to get 2 without some speedrun techniques.

oldtaku:
Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 2 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Two hours? Not really.

I know there are a bunch of crazy speed runs, but they all exploited glitches to skip a good part of the game.

Daystar Clarion:
Poison face darts?

What are you, a fukin kasul?

Get on mah fukin level scrub.

How improve?

How do I even lift?

OT: Is "poison darts from touching analogue stick" really difficulty, or just an epic booby trap?

Yeah I don't like that whole marketing bs on dark souls difficulty.
It's misleading and could lead to future souls games being worse for it just like alien games where Aliens has been misunderstood as "space marines shoot aliens and are badass" which is NOT what the movie was about.

Chaosritter:

oldtaku:
Once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 2 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Two hours? Not really. I know there are a bunch of crazy speed runs, but they all exploited glitches to skip a good part of the game.

Fair enough, you probably won't get two hours without using some speedrun techniques. Seems like if you were just playing and knew where and what everything was and how to beat them you could do it in ten. But that's not because it's scary hard, just because there's a lot of running around, and fighting bosses takes time without oneshot tricks.

Putting it another way, you can beat the entire game without bothering to level up.

oldtaku:
Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 2 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Given that, it's easier than a game that requires constant high level combat technique like Ninja Gaiden. It's also easier than Binding of Isaac because everything is always in the same place and you'll never be screwed by random dungeon. I guess you could sort of compare it to SMB, but it's not nearly as twitchy.

So basically, people are confusing its opacity for difficulty.

Huh, that's a suprise. Seeing as i enjoy BoI alot and never felt it was particulary crazy hard. Just takes a few tries to learn the items / enemies but that's true for all the mentioned games (replace enemies with evil sawblades for smb).

Still have the game on my to do list - even though numero dos is out already. But my old controller is broken and i never wanted to buy a new one just for DS :D
Gotta give it a shot now that i can play through both 1 & 2 >.>

oldtaku:

Adeptus Aspartem:
Hm, i've always wondered how hard is DS compared to Ninja Gaiden or the easier Binding of Isaac or Super Meat Boy?

Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 2 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Given that, it's easier than a game that requires constant high level combat technique like Ninja Gaiden. It's also easier than Binding of Isaac because everything is always in the same place and you'll never be screwed by random dungeon. I guess you could sort of compare it to SMB, but it's not nearly as twitchy.

So basically, people are confusing its opacity for difficulty.

AND here's somebody to completely ignore on this subject, apparently.
Last I checked, the game does tell you how things work, and are explained. People who played the first one won't have that issue (they'll already know the controls), and the layout of the game area prohibits you from accidentally wandering into an area that is completely over your capabilities. In a sense, its actually easier than the first game because of that, because there is no chance of wandering into a zone full of enemies that completely outclass you.

Also, 1hr for speedruns. And that takes equal measures of knowing the environment and just how far a character can jump/take/etc, as well as what to grab and what to ignore. And yes, it does take some skill as well as some glitches with boss behavior and the like. There is no "cruising" through an area simply because you died. OH yeah, that's also because enemies don't respawn endlessly with the bonfire, unless you use a specific item to bring them and bosses back in a stronger form.

The game is very clear, sorry to tell you. Like the comic said:

It's really about respect for the player, their time and their intellect. Difficulty is part of that philosophy, but not the be-all-and-end-all of it.

My younger sibling picked the game up on a whim, played it, and got the idea of how things worked in less than half an hour.
Then again I'm also not an idiot, neither are they, so take that as you will.

oldtaku:

Adeptus Aspartem:
Hm, i've always wondered how hard is DS compared to Ninja Gaiden or the easier Binding of Isaac or Super Meat Boy?

Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 10 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Given that, it's easier than a game that requires constant high level combat technique like Ninja Gaiden. It's also easier than Binding of Isaac because everything is always in the same place and you'll never be screwed by random dungeon. I guess you could sort of compare it to SMB, but it's not nearly as twitchy.

So basically, people are confusing its opacity for difficulty.

Edited: Changed 2 hours above to 10 hours. You're probably not going to get 2 without some speedrun techniques.

I would quibble that its challenge is solely impenetrability and opacity. It requires situational awareness above all else. Unlike a physically challenging game, like Super Meat Boy or Ninja Gaiden, it's very possible to simply run past everything without too much precise timing or skill, but it still requires both intimate knowledge of the environment and the way various enemies behave. You still can't just jog through the Tomb of the Giants, no matter how well you have it memorized, you have to have learned how the skeletal beasts pursue and attack, where the pillars hide and when to stop running and put your shield up. Generally, Dark Souls is about unlearning your twitch-reflexes, the very things that get you through those genuinely taxing games, and replace them with cautious observation and understanding of your environment at all times. In Ninja Gaiden, learning from death is not only inevitable, it is necessary and expected. In Dark Souls, death will happen until you learn, and once you do it will be drastically reduced - whereas in Ninja Gaiden, you can learn where and when and how an enemy will attack and still lack the finesse to counter them appropriately.

You're right in terms of the end result - casually cruising through in 10 hours, only getting stuck on a few noteworthy bosses depending on build and preferred playstyle - and in the fact that Dark Souls does explain very little (even things it should, like the way stats and magic actually work), but I feel you're going in a little too far in chalking its difficulty to obscurity. Dark Souls is about observation and slow, steady persistence - rather than persistence in the face of many rapid and physically taxing deaths. Each time you die in Meat Boy, it's "shit, timed that ever so slightly wrong HERE WE GO AGAIN". Each time you die in Dark Souls, it's almost certainly a case of "well, I really screwed that up. How do I deal with that? Is there another way? Maybe I should explore first, or improve my equipment, or change my spells. Maybe I should go slower... or maybe I should try running past this bridge, and then hunkering down inside the building?"

Dark Souls has contemplation, which is something a great many games - especially those in the broad genre of third-person melee action titles - lack considerably.

Chaosritter:

oldtaku:
Dark Souls isn't hard. It's just impenetrable. Nothing is explained and you have to figure out how it works, and that may involve dying again and again till you figure it out, but once you do you can just cruise through areas and beat the whole game in 2 hours (speedrunners can do under a half hour, but those people are gloriously crazy).

Two hours? Not really.

I know there are a bunch of crazy speed runs, but they all exploited glitches to skip a good part of the game.

not actualy dark souls 2 have aready been beaten in 2 hours 39 mins without using single real glitch (i was watching it from start to end no idea whether or not there is aready faster run. the only thing that can actualy be seen as glitch was pushing one of the early bosses from cliff to cause instant dead and that is actualy more of feature of boss since it takes amazing skill to execute without dying yourself not to forget the boss can be beaten in 2-4 mins without it + the same guy finished dark souls 2 in his second run in 3 hours 22 mins before he had much of an idea for optimal routes)
dark souls 1 world record is 1 hour 21mins all bosses beaten (no idea whether or not glitches where used)and 25mins for any % run. you are overestimating dark souls and underestimating speedrunners.
i personaly can use my own dark souls 1 experience as a example in my firt run it taked 5 hours to get past gargoyles and ring the first bell in my second run it taked 1 hour 7mins (and most bosses beaten in first try if i would be able to avoid deads it would have been under 30 mins run to same part which is huge time cut)these both runs were done in last week since i bought dark souls 1 just so i could understand dark souls 2 lore better. so as you learn dark souls you get much faster at it when you know what to expect.

I just had to say, I really like how Erin was drawn in the first panel.

drakonz:
Snip

Noobest has the currently fastest Any% run at 2:03:50 (can be seen here http://www.twitch.tv/noobest/c/3901965 how do I link properly?)
The run is expected to improve significantly as more optimal routes are found. An all bosses route is also in the works.

as for DS1 the only glitch I remember being used is the moveswap glitch (using one weapon with the moveset of another), but there were sub two hour runs before that.

username sucks:
I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

That a pretty big "if". Because , as we all know, gamers are known for their patience. Hold on while i check my pre-orders for an early access alpha to a game on steam.

OT: really good point . i really hope they don't get to 6. They'll probably make a reboot at 4 .

krazykidd:

username sucks:
I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

That a pretty big "if". Because , as we all know, gamers are known for their patience. Hold on while i check my pre-orders for an early access alpha to a game on steam.

OT: really good point . i really hope they don't get to 6. They'll probably make a reboot at 4 .

That "if" is the reason the game is so popular. "Gamer" simply refers to people who play video games. It's the whole reason we have different gameplay genres. Some like the fast paced action of a shooter, some like the strategy in an rts, ect. Saying someone is a gamer doesn't say anything about their personality or traits, just the medium of entertainment they like.

So saying gamers are impatient makes as much sense as saying people are impatient. It is true for many (probably most, admittedly), but there is still a very large crowd who is patient and wants to move slowly and cautiously, at least sometimes.

dear god i originally wanted to write how the reason i bought demons souls was because somebody tried very hard to explain what makes the game so special(not just say its hard) but then again this is a dark souls thread where people a) tell you how great they are for whatever they did or watched someone to that game or b) tell you how the game is not hard just stupid because they didn't like X.
i'm just gonna go back to titanfall thread and laugh at people bitching about the smart pistol

krazykidd:

username sucks:
I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

That a pretty big "if". Because , as we all know, gamers are known for their patience. Hold on while i check my pre-orders for an early access alpha to a game on steam.

OT: really good point . i really hope they don't get to 6. They'll probably make a reboot at 4 .

I honestly dont think they will get to 4.

maybe 3, and that's a big maybe.

if anything afterwords it might be a different game but with the same mechanics.

OT: I kind of dislike people that use the argument "people only like it because it's hard" for why they hate the game. Partially because it's true.

I'm probably going to pick up the PC version when it gets released, and the only reason I want to play it is because of the so called "difficulty".

Its rare to find a game that is actually difficult these days. hell, I went back and played an Elite fan-made game and forgot just how unforgiving it really is.

think its hard fighting against enemies that can three-shot you fairly easily if you are not careful? try crashing into a space station because you forgot the entire thing rotates and even the slightest scrape of your side will destroy your 5 million credit space ship and cause you to restart from the beginning because the save menu is hidden away inside said space station that now has your face smeared over the front of it.

Anybody who says that Dark Souls isn't hard is lying to you.

If you are unprepared for what is coming next, you will die. Repeatedly. Even if you are prepared for what is coming, but don't have lighting reflexes or very good gear, you will die. Repeatedly.

Dark Souls is a game where you have to understand how things work. Sure the game tells you how to block, but it doesn't tell you how stability, block % and endurance work.

Many of the bosses will kill you in two or three hits. It's not uncommon to go into a boss room and die in five seconds. Many bosses have attacks where your only hope is to dodge, with almost perfect timing.

Basically unless you are not a master of how you control your character, you will die. Repeatedly.

Dark Souls III; Darker Souls
Dark Souls III; 'Deletes all your saves and e-mails your porn to your mum' edition.
Dark Souls IV; So dark you can't even see the Souls, not even a bit.
Dark Souls IV Expansion; Pain hurty pain hurt (comes with masochist starter kit)
Dark Souls V: Revenge of the Blackness
Dark Souls V: Literally-punches-you-in-the-face Edition.
Dark Souls V Expansion: Balls of Darkness (comes with optional testicle vice addon)

Personally i think they peaked with the PC version of DS:V "Literally punches you in the Face" Edition with Oculus rift support. Everything from then on was just gimmicky.

Might pick up Dark Souls VI when they bring out the "Temporal Patricide" edition. It literally goes back in time and kills your father before you were conceived.

Kalezian:

krazykidd:

username sucks:
I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

That a pretty big "if". Because , as we all know, gamers are known for their patience. Hold on while i check my pre-orders for an early access alpha to a game on steam.

OT: really good point . i really hope they don't get to 6. They'll probably make a reboot at 4 .

I honestly dont think they will get to 4.

maybe 3, and that's a big maybe.

if anything afterwords it might be a different game but with the same mechanics.

OT: I kind of dislike people that use the argument "people only like it because it's hard" for why they hate the game. Partially because it's true.

I'm probably going to pick up the PC version when it gets released, and the only reason I want to play it is because of the so called "difficulty".

Its rare to find a game that is actually difficult these days. hell, I went back and played an Elite fan-made game and forgot just how unforgiving it really is.

think its hard fighting against enemies that can three-shot you fairly easily if you are not careful? try crashing into a space station because you forgot the entire thing rotates and even the slightest scrape of your side will destroy your 5 million credit space ship and cause you to restart from the beginning because the save menu is hidden away inside said space station that now has your face smeared over the front of it.

If you count Demon's Souls then Dark Souls 2 is the 3rd game. I think it's unlikely that they'll make a Dark Souls 3, but I think there will be more games in the Souls series.

I'll be surprised if there isn't a sequel for Xbone/PS4.

Also I tried to played Elite: Froniter the other day. Took me an hours just to figure out how to take off and another to actually land on another planet. Not even tried to actually fight anything yet.

I gotta say I agree, Dark Souls is absolutely fantastic but people who assume it's purely because of the difficulty are missing the point entirely. For me it's all about the incredible atmosphere, unique storytelling and perfect world/level design (the way it all interlinks, especially in Dark Souls 1, is just amazing).

Also, just finished Dark Souls II, feels gooooood, man.

For me, Dark Souls 2 is the third game so it's confusing when people say things like "the second game" or "the first game" and it takes me a few second to figure out what game they are talking about. Demon's Souls is like some lost long seldom acknowledged cousin.

Of course the games are getting easier somewhat simply because people are familiar with the formula having played two previous games that are similar. I don't mind difficult games at all so long as they are fair and the Souls games have always seemed fair; that is other than trying to balance on narrow walkways.

A friend of mine gave up on Demon's Souls because they tried to fight Executioner Miranda right after doing the intro and died dozens of times and he threw down the game and never touched it again. He told me the game was just too difficult. I went the same route when trying 1-1, and when I saw that I did no noticeable damage to her, and she killed me in one hit, I decided that couldn't be the way and went somewhere else. I don't know what kind of game he thought Demon's Souls was that he'd tried to kill the same enemy over and over again despite doing no noticeable damage and being constantly one-shotted with her axe.

Kalezian:

krazykidd:

username sucks:
I think it's very misleading that the Souls games are portrayed as being so difficult. Sure, you'll die, but if you move cautiously and stay focused you can get through just about anything. It doesn't even take any special skills, I have a friend who was introduced to gaming through Dark Souls, and they love it. It just doesn't work if you take the strategy of charging through everything that works in most games.

That a pretty big "if". Because , as we all know, gamers are known for their patience. Hold on while i check my pre-orders for an early access alpha to a game on steam.

OT: really good point . i really hope they don't get to 6. They'll probably make a reboot at 4 .

I honestly dont think they will get to 4.

maybe 3, and that's a big maybe.

if anything afterwords it might be a different game but with the same mechanics.

OT: I kind of dislike people that use the argument "people only like it because it's hard" for why they hate the game. Partially because it's true.

I'm probably going to pick up the PC version when it gets released, and the only reason I want to play it is because of the so called "difficulty".

Its rare to find a game that is actually difficult these days. hell, I went back and played an Elite fan-made game and forgot just how unforgiving it really is.

think its hard fighting against enemies that can three-shot you fairly easily if you are not careful? try crashing into a space station because you forgot the entire thing rotates and even the slightest scrape of your side will destroy your 5 million credit space ship and cause you to restart from the beginning because the save menu is hidden away inside said space station that now has your face smeared over the front of it.

The should just call the next one " Demons souls 2" and call it a day. Just to confuse the hell out of people.

Daystar Clarion:
Poison face darts?

What are you, a fukin kasul?

Get on mah fukin level scrub.

Pfah. If you're not on "sledgehammer to the knuckles every time you blink" difficulty, go back to Hello Kitty Adventures.

Scrumpmonkey:

Dark Souls V Expansion: Balls of Darkness (comes with optional testicle vice addon)

Optional? Newbs, in my day we had to hammer our OWN balls, or else the game makers would take a country hostage.

Daystar Clarion:
Poison face darts?

What are you, a fukin kasul?

Get on mah fukin level scrub.

The true 1337harkore plays with sarin bitch

The Rogue Wolf:

Daystar Clarion:
Poison face darts?

What are you, a fukin kasul?

Get on mah fukin level scrub.

Pfah. If you're not on "sledgehammer to the knuckles every time you blink" difficulty, go back to Hello Kitty Adventures.

It is clear to me that you haven't played Hello Kitty Adventures 3. That game makes me wish I was playing Dark Souls 8 Pins in Eyes for Breathing mode again.

I'm currently co-playing Dark Souls 2 with the roommate, just to get an idea for how the games work... I'm better at spotting things that might be useful, but the roommie has the dexterity to play. A couple days after Yatzhee's thread on Dark Souls, I started to want to try it at least, and that came to a head after we started DS2. It's fun to just wander along at a stroll through the first game, with bits of knowledge about the world of 2, and just... explore?

Please..... poison darts?
PHf...casual nubs, try shotguns shells....
But in all seriousness... Dark Souls 2 is very fair, and very very harsh, its really easy if you take it slow and keep a steady pace (slow & steady wins the race)...
As a knight, I just tank 90% of attack with a shield... then whale in after the attack pattern is done...
Yahtzee praising atmosphere got me into this, and I'm loving it...

Dark Souls isn't so much more difficult as a different kind of difficult from the standard game. You can't just mindlessly react like in a twitch game where you're selecting between a couple combos in response to visible indicators, and you can't just plot a route that avoids everything (initially, obviously it can be done after you've already run through everything a couple times) like in a lot of adventure games.

You have to track multiple factors on both the tactical and reactive time-scales, and apply a level of strategic thinking over that. And on top of that, the combat reactions are essentially simple puzzles with a lot of timing and footwork components even before you toss terrain factors in. REAL timing puzzles, where doing things too quickly can be as bad as doing them too slowly and you sometimes have to call it and start moving long before the enemy actually gives you a visible signal that the hammer is coming down.

There's also just a basic level of respect for the player's intelligence, where if you can see something, it's actually part of the world and not false background, and usually you'll actually end up there at some point and it will actually be part of the plot. The whole thing's very well-written and efficiently designed on top of everything else.

Essentially I'm agreeing with the blurb on this one, the difference is much less that DS is a hard game and much more that it's a smart one, that expects that the player is also reasonably intelligent. So even hard challenges are sort of put up with the implication that you can figure it out, and once you solve it and execute your strategy properly you win. No absurd artificial difficulty like giving the monsters so many HP that you have to repeat the sequence 200 times or where you just have to do something faster than the computer (as noted, doing that will often cause you to LOSE), just a puzzle to solve that takes a few tries.

I just don't get it.

Yes, the game is difficult.
IT ALSO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE GOING FOR IT.
No good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all. It's the blandest, most generic game I've ever seen.... but it's frustratingly difficult due to poorly implemented gameplay. So? What makes it so enjoyable?

Zira:
I just don't get it.

Yes, the game is difficult.
IT ALSO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE GOING FOR IT.
No good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all. It's the blandest, most generic game I've ever seen.... but it's frustratingly difficult due to poorly implemented gameplay. So? What makes it so enjoyable?

If you already think it has no good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all, what's the point of anyone trying to argue any different?

Casual Shinji:

Zira:
I just don't get it.

Yes, the game is difficult.
IT ALSO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE GOING FOR IT.
No good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all. It's the blandest, most generic game I've ever seen.... but it's frustratingly difficult due to poorly implemented gameplay. So? What makes it so enjoyable?

If you already think it has no good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all, what's the point of anyone trying to argue any different?

I don't "think" it. I know it. Having played the actual game....

Or would you argue the game has good story, characters, etc.?

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