Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 3 Review "Breaker of Chains" - Rape & Betrayal

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Rutskarn:
"It was supposed to be a rape that ended up being consensual."

Fuck this guy. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. This is not a thing.

My wife's fantasies would like to have a word with you. As would a large number of the women's romance novels. Nothing ever condones rape, but the concept that the victim ends up enjoying her/himself is a very real thing.

It was not rape. Have you even watched the show?

I interpreted this as Jaime in a moment of frustration (remember, he has no hand, no one regards him as the same, and he essentially watched his son die while watching helplessly, and not being able to even openly acknowledge it that way) trying to reassert his old identity; that is, the season one Jaime, where neither he nor Cersei even flinched at pushing a child to his death to keep boning. That he is not this character any more, and she is not that character anymore, is what made the scene for me particularly painful to watch. His desire to reinforce that he's still this person, and that nothing has changed, when everything has changed, turns this moment into what it is; something so beyond dark that it would be comical if it wasn't so awful. I think Joffrey's lifeless corpse flailing about in response cements this fittingly.

Hopefully Jaime's arc going forward will show that this is what was meant to be seen, and not just "Jaime felt like getting rapey." The show so far has been so well-written that I give it the benefit of the doubt.

Okay, look, the question about the victim coming around to enjoy rape (which is an erotica/romance trope that probably doesn't exist in real life, at least outside of those with a tremendous amount of psychological baggage) isn't what this thread is about. It's not a matter of whether Cersei started moaning or whether people have rape fantasies. The issue is that the scene depicted in the show was a rape scene, perpetrated by a popular character who up to that point had seemed to be on the path of redemption, and whether or not that character beat works for the audience. Rape is horrible, and this is meant to be a realistic, not erotic fantasy, rape, so arguments about rape fantasies don't really apply. This isn't about a fictional character's supposed enjoyment of a rape, it's about whether or not the scene worked.

I'd argue that it does, at least in some ways. The two characters involved are extremely complicated and psychologically damaged individuals, who've been feeding off of each other's aberrations. I wasn't really expecting ordinary grief and anger behaviors from them(whatever you think those may be). I don't think it upsets Jaime's redemption so much, because I don't really know that redemption is really the arc he was on. Jaime's a shit. He's a shit trying to make amends, but he's still a shit.

We want there to be unambiguous heroes in this story. The only characters who've come close are Ned, Jon, and Brienne, with Tyrion a distant runner-up (he's a little too willing to be ruthless when called for and too unwilling to fight his family to be a completely unambiguous hero). Unfortunately, the story doesn't seem to want to give us those, and I'm not sure Jaime was ever meant to be a hero anyway. I suspect his overall theme is going to be the tragedy of who he might have been if he'd been born anything other than Lannister.

Okay, look, the question about the victim coming around to enjoy rape (which is an erotica/romance trope that probably doesn't exist in real life, at least outside of those with a tremendous amount of psychological baggage) isn't what this thread is about. It's not a matter of whether Cersei started moaning or whether people have rape fantasies. The issue is that the scene depicted in the show was a rape scene, perpetrated by a popular character who up to that point had seemed to be on the path of redemption, and whether or not that character beat works for the audience. Rape is horrible, and this is meant to be a realistic, not erotic fantasy, rape, so arguments about rape fantasies don't really apply. This isn't about a fictional character's supposed enjoyment of a rape, it's about whether or not the scene worked.

I'd argue that it does, at least in some ways. The two characters involved are extremely complicated and psychologically damaged individuals, who've been feeding off of each other's aberrations. I wasn't really expecting ordinary grief and anger behaviors from them(whatever you think those may be). I don't think it upsets Jaime's redemption so much, because I don't really know that redemption is really the arc he was on. Jaime's a shit. He's a shit trying to make amends, but he's still a shit.

We want there to be unambiguous heroes in this story. The only characters who've come close are Ned, Jon, and Brienne, with Tyrion a distant runner-up (he's a little too willing to be ruthless when called for and too unwilling to fight his family to be a completely unambiguous hero). Unfortunately, the story doesn't seem to want to give us those, and I'm not sure Jaime was ever meant to be a hero anyway. I suspect his overall theme is going to be the tragedy of who he might have been if he'd been born anything other than Lannister.

So what if it was "really" rape or not? Games of Thrones has had graphic depictions of infanticide, slavery, torture, animal cruelty, mutilation, human sacrifice, incest, prostitution, and pretty much every act of murder a medieval society is capable of. Why is rape "the line" that mustn't be crossed? This is not a feel-good show. Like Ramsay said, "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention".

I get the feeling that people who have read the books like Jaime a lot more than those of us who have just watched the TV show. We tend to hold that 'pushing Bran out of a window' thing against him a little more. Jaime has become more sympathetic over the last season because bad things have happened to him, but that's not the same a journey to heroism; we have seen he's a complex character but we never forget what he's capable of. He did an ugly thing to his sister because he didn't like how she was treating him and because he's a bastard.

okay, not entirely related but I have to say.

After reading all of these comments and all I hear about game of thrones...why the hell does anyone watch it? It sounds like a horrible show full of horrible people!

I cannot watch this thing because of all the bad things that happen in it.

chinangel:
okay, not entirely related but I have to say.

After reading all of these comments and all I hear about game of thrones...why the hell does anyone watch it? It sounds like a horrible show full of horrible people!

I cannot watch this thing because of all the bad things that happen in it.

Yeah, this isn't exactly the show for you if you don't like bad things happening to good people. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but to call it "a horrible show full of horrible people" is pushing it a bit far.

It's a nuanced show full of nuanced people where traditional storytelling and fantasy tropes get deconstructed all the time. Everyone in it has their own goals, motivations, and morals, and nothing is black and white. Some characters are undeniably good (Brienne and Ned Stark come to mind) and some are indisputably evil (hello Ramsay Snow!), but the vast majority fall somewhere in between. And being a "good" character is by no means a guarantee that you will win or even survive; characters suffer more for the consequences of their actions than their moral character. Tywin says it right in this episode; morality and justice and strength mean nothing without wisdom, which means that moral and just and strong characters can lose if they don't think things through.

OT: I for one think that Jaime's actions in this episode are perfectly within his character. Jaime is deeply flawed, a self-centered character who has just added one more person into the list of "People I Care About" last season. For anyone who was under the illusion that Jaime is turning into a stereotypical "knight in shining armour" I have just one thing to say:

I'm writing this assuming that everyone knows that an episode review thread is full of spoilers...

I've had others quote the book where it definately doesn't come across as all out rape as it depicts in the show; Cersei wanted it but not next to the body, but Jamie "insisted" and she finally relented, telling him basically "yes, yes, hurry" and reached down to guide "little jamie" inside her.

The intention of the show's producers was to show you "You're not supposed to really like these people", and showed a bunch of these characters being assholes... like fat knight/fool betraying Sansa's trust and was only in it for the money, little finger then killing him etc, and they changed the twins' scene to rape as just another bad act on Jamie's part and a bit of punishment for Cersei.

They didn't anticipate the twitter and tumblr activists going absolutely nuts because the show is full of child killing, murder, burning people alive at the stake, child sacrifice, off-screen rape.

I personally don't care about the change, Cersei and Jamie are both incesty inbreeding evil cunts. I know they're complex and have circumstances, but they're more evil than sympathetic now and nothing absolves them of the results of their actions.

He tried to kill a kid, murdered his own adoring cousin to escape just a day before being released, and has done other awful things through is his life... She took pleasure in tormenting an innocent naive girl, desires to kill her own family, killed people herself, took joy in suffering peasants and like the others, would kill anyone standing in the way of power.

She deserved it and they both deserve whatever horrible fate they get just like their evil inbred offspring Joffery... no one was trying to make excuses for a teen who enjoyed killing things and ordered the death of kids (He was the victim of a mental illness brought on by incest after all), but he deserved his dreadful poison death or even worse.

T8B95:
OT: I for one think that Jaime's actions in this episode are perfectly within his character. Jaime is deeply flawed, a self-centered character who has just added one more person into the list of "People I Care About" last season. For anyone who was under the illusion that Jaime is turning into a stereotypical "knight in shining armour" I have just one thing to say...

Really. His real defining change of character in the books was when he started to get sick of Cersei's shit. Up until that point, he was living his life entirley for her, and to a lesser extent to obey his father. He's learning to become his own man, it just so happens that he's still an arrogant jerk. He's been somewhat humbled with the loss of his sword hand, sure, but only so far where he doesn't pick fights with anyone anymore because he knows that anyone with any experience with a blade will make short work of him.

Sejborg:
Nope. The raping of Cersei will make her story arc a bit more sensible. Just you wait and see.

I completely agree...sort of. If I thought that the scene was actually PLANNED to be a rape, it could serve a fairly important purpose, dramatically speaking. In the books, Cersei can often get pangs of sympathy out of me. Although she's still scheming and somewhat bitchy, you get the strong sense from her POV chapters that she's driven by fear.

At this point in the show, I don't think any of the GoT audience who haven't read the books would shed any tears for the character if they met a horrible end. Jaime, meanwhile, is much more "redeemed" in the eyes of viewers than he would be at the same point in the books (at least, that's the way I feel about it). If the rape scene was intended, it could help even the keel and maintain the audience's conflicted feelings about the characters.

I actually think it was just poorly directed/edited, though. In watching the scene, Cersei starts making out with him, protests, then starts making out again, then protests further to end the scene. Either ending it a step earlier or having her go back to making out with him at the end of the second protesting would have been fine. Weird...but ultimately less rapey.

In fear of mmaking myself out to be a total pig. Maybe Jamie was confused, maybe he misread her, maybe it was one of those women moments of no really means kinda, or try harder.Was not too much pushing away it was mainly grabbing, she was kissing him back at a few points. To me if was not rape it was angry ive been away for ages missed the shit outta you, got my hand chopped off and now your asking me to kill our brother !?!? "why have the gods make me loved a hateful women" RAAAW ima fuck the bitch outta you.
Like somone pointed out you give a raoe scene to a person you want ppl to start really HATEING.Jamie has shown he is not such an asshole after all saving somone from rape. So does not make sense. Think people are taking it too literal...?
Or maybe im wrong lol

Grey Edwards:

Rutskarn:
"It was supposed to be a rape that ended up being consensual."

Fuck this guy. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. This is not a thing.

My wife's fantasies would like to have a word with you. As would a large number of the women's romance novels. Nothing ever condones rape, but the concept that the victim ends up enjoying her/himself is a very real thing.

Same with my girlfriend, I actually have trouble getting into the "ignore resistance" state of mind, because of having been brought up with "no means no", rejection suddenly isn't rejection, it's just something you push through.

I was totally bewildered about how to approach such a thing.

DayDark:

Grey Edwards:

Rutskarn:
"It was supposed to be a rape that ended up being consensual."

Fuck this guy. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. This is not a thing.

My wife's fantasies would like to have a word with you. As would a large number of the women's romance novels. Nothing ever condones rape, but the concept that the victim ends up enjoying her/himself is a very real thing.

Same with my girlfriend, I actually have trouble getting into the "ignore resistance" state of mind, because of having been brought up with "no means no", rejection suddenly isn't rejection, it's just something you push through.

I was totally bewildered about how to approach such a thing.

The difference being that you know it is a fantasy of your gf or his wife... at that point, while she may say no, or stop... all involved know it is also partially an 'act' to try/fulfill that fantasy.

Somehow I don't think she would be too keen if someone jumped her as she walked home from the store and took her in an alley. With that said, I could be wrong, and that is entirely up to you, and her... and whomever does the deed to her. However, to make the assumption that the reaction would be the norm and not the exception is why this doesn't work.

edited for spelling

AstaresPanda:
In fear of mmaking myself out to be a total pig. Maybe Jamie was confused, maybe he misread her, maybe it was one of those women moments of no really means kinda, or try harder.Was not too much pushing away it was mainly grabbing, she was kissing him back at a few points. To me if was not rape it was angry ive been away for ages missed the shit outta you, got my hand chopped off and now your asking me to kill our brother !?!? "why have the gods make me loved a hateful women" RAAAW ima fuck the bitch outta you.
Like somone pointed out you give a raoe scene to a person you want ppl to start really HATEING.Jamie has shown he is not such an asshole after all saving somone from rape. So does not make sense. Think people are taking it too literal...?
Or maybe im wrong lol

Yes, you are wrong. There is no way to "fuck the bitch" out of any human being. To think that is even a possibility is a really shitty thing to say.

I agree there was some kissing back that does make the scene a little more ambiguous, but the scene was directed/edited poorly with Cersei saying no repeatedly and fading away with Jaime saying "I don't care." Basically, I think the whole thing was poorly executed, with no clear distinction made by the creators. That's what pisses me off.

I have to agree with Greg on poor execution, though as a reader of the books I did not perceive the scene that way.
I understand, though, that it can be very misleading.
The real question is how the showrunners and directors will deal with this. Will they treat it as rape? Will they treat it as consensual?
They have rewritten some stuff quite heavily and with the whole Cersei/Jamie dynamic we had in the episodes (contrary to the books), we can't really say how
it will influence them. Maybe Jamie will be totally broken up about what he did? Kind of a more intense realiaation than he had after the same scene in the books?
I am very eager to find out.

Rape, incest and pedophilia are staples of the series, but only now they're actually a problem? What about Drogo fucking a 14 years old Daenerys; what about the first episode with Cersei-Jaime incest sex on screen? What were you doing when all this was happening on screen? Sleeping?

2cool4u:
Rape, incest and pedophilia are staples of the series, but only now they're actually a problem? What about Drogo fucking a 14 years old Daenerys; what about the first episode with Cersei-Jaime incest sex on screen? What were you doing when all this was happening on screen? Sleeping?

I don't remember much of Drogo/Daenerys' first night together so I won't comment on that part. However, rape and incest are two EXTREMELY different situations.

Incest, while a taboo in today's society, is between two consenting people. We might not agree with the practice anymore but it was a legitimate way of keeping a houses blood pure in those times.

Rape on the other hand is, also taboo in today's society, but more importantly between two people where one does NOT consenting. Again it was common place in those times as well.

Rape is the act of one person forcing themselves on the other. Incest is mutual between both participants. That makes ALL of the difference between the two.

Makabriel:
Does no one remember the way he pushed Bran out the window? Did that look like a man that cares about anything but himself?

The entire reason he did that is because incest is a capital crime, or at least would be in their household. It'd mean death for him, but also death for the woman he loved and death for their child. That's part of the reason he precedes pushing Bran out by meeting Cersei's eyes, sharing a look and saying "the things I do for love". He knows exactly what being discovered would mean, doesn't really want to do it but when he realises what's at stake he does it without regret.

el_kabong:
I actually think it was just poorly directed/edited, though.

This, I'm thinking they were trying to go for the same scene as in the book and just cocked it up. It didn't seem like it was intended as rape and was more a case of unfortunate implications from an honest mistake. Incidentally that's what most of the media 'rape' that gets whinged about on Tumblr is.

DayDark:
Same with my girlfriend, I actually have trouble getting into the "ignore resistance" state of mind, because of having been brought up with "no means no", rejection suddenly isn't rejection, it's just something you push through.

I was totally bewildered about how to approach such a thing.

Same here, the whole 'no means no means no, unless no means yes and you are expected to know the difference without being told' thing is deeply confusing and really worrying. Particularly when the message is that consent is a simple matter and impossible to honestly misunderstand.

Rutskarn:

Fuck this guy. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. This is not a thing.

Hate to break it to you, but it is. Being someone's who's had unwanted sexual advances thrust upon them forcibly only to start getting into it is something that happens, because it's happened to me. I don't know how common it is, but I can assure you the world isn't as black and white as tumblr might lead you to believe.

And for the record, yes. I'm still upset with that person, but I am not as mad as I probably should be. I can't be, really, not after my own actions.

Hows about we nip this in the bud. Its Game of Thrones. deal with it? Some ppl will get this offended out this and allow the likes of justin beeber and other truely disgusting vile piles of after birth. But no no, this is wrong.

Greg Tito:

AstaresPanda:
In fear of mmaking myself out to be a total pig. Maybe Jamie was confused, maybe he misread her, maybe it was one of those women moments of no really means kinda, or try harder.Was not too much pushing away it was mainly grabbing, she was kissing him back at a few points. To me if was not rape it was angry ive been away for ages missed the shit outta you, got my hand chopped off and now your asking me to kill our brother !?!? "why have the gods make me loved a hateful women" RAAAW ima fuck the bitch outta you.
Like somone pointed out you give a raoe scene to a person you want ppl to start really HATEING.Jamie has shown he is not such an asshole after all saving somone from rape. So does not make sense. Think people are taking it too literal...?
Or maybe im wrong lol

Yes, you are wrong. There is no way to "fuck the bitch" out of any human being. To think that is even a possibility is a really shitty thing to say.

I agree there was some kissing back that does make the scene a little more ambiguous, but the scene was directed/edited poorly with Cersei saying no repeatedly and fading away with Jaime saying "I don't care." Basically, I think the whole thing was poorly executed, with no clear distinction made by the creators. That's what pisses me off.

lol think your taking my words abit too literally there, get off your soap box abit eh. Its as stupid as me saying you can cure "the gay" by going to a hardcore christian camp. Have you never had angry make up sex before ?
I think this is the issue ppl are having, they are taking it too literally, the show is not black and white, its full of greys.I think it got its point across.

AstaresPanda:
Hows about we nip this in the bud. Its Game of Thrones. deal with it? Some ppl will get this offended out this and allow the likes of justin beeber and other truely disgusting vile piles of after birth. But no no, this is wrong.

Umm... Wow... wow. I think you should just stop before you get yourself banned. I hate Beiber's music, think he is a spoiled little child, but he is a person all the same and doesn't deserve death after birth.

AstaresPanda:

Greg Tito:

Yes, you are wrong. There is no way to "fuck the bitch" out of any human being. To think that is even a possibility is a really shitty thing to say.

I agree there was some kissing back that does make the scene a little more ambiguous, but the scene was directed/edited poorly with Cersei saying no repeatedly and fading away with Jaime saying "I don't care." Basically, I think the whole thing was poorly executed, with no clear distinction made by the creators. That's what pisses me off.

lol think your taking my words abit too literally there, get off your soap box abit eh. Its as stupid as me saying you can cure "the gay" by going to a hardcore christian camp. Have you never had angry make up sex before ?
I think this is the issue ppl are having, they are taking it too literally, the show is not black and white, its full of greys.I think it got its point across.

I'd also like to point out that angry sex isn't rape... its angry sex. That's why it is called angry sex. There isn't much to mis-understand about the scene in the show... Jaime makes his advances, and Cersei objects the whole time... That's rape... that might as well be the dictionary example of rape.

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