The Switch: 3 Classic Characters That Should Be Gender Swapped

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CaptainMarvelous:
There IS a gender-swapped Punisher. Rachel Cole-Alves? From the 2011 series? Seriously man, read a comic book.

THANK YOU!

OT: I don't know much about Nexus but Catwoman is meant to be a super feminine character I don't think it makes much sense for her to be gender swapped it would be like gender swapping He-man or something. I guess if you were doing it be weird or ironic it could work but it would just seem strange.

so we're getting the mandatory "click bait" article out of the way for the week, ok. look major changes to superheroes are always a hard sell people have a tendency to lock their heroes into certain interpretations and at set points. I still more or less think of cap in his traditional uniform despite the marvel now and live action versions of his costume. venom will always be eddie brock to some people even though currently flash Thompson has the symbiote as agent venom. and no matter how good a new series is taking a chick and swapping her with a dude will always be seen as sexist because reasons. a female form of the punisher? isn't that basically black widow? i'm all for creating more heroes if you want more often times they are better because they're free to explore new ideas. look at the new ms. marvel, aside from her name she is basically her own hero. miles morales IS a new hero dealing with the shadow of peter parker but still gets to do his own thing. terry mcguiness or batman beyond is one of my favorite heroes right now his comic kicks ass, because he's his own man, he's different, they showed that perfectly in the return of the joker movie, terry can't outbatman batman, he can't beat the joker the same way bruce would so he bantered, something batman never thought to try. he fought dirty, he mocked the joker. you want a new take on things fine, bring on some new super heroes but fucking up existing heroes in the name of "diversity" is BS and it's more or less just trolling.

i'm going to piss myself if this supposedly progressive "genderswap" in "Danger Mouse" turns out to be the feminisation and sexualization of Stiletto Mafiosa or something...

"For some reason, we as a culture see cats as inherently female. Hell, we even have sexual slang inspired by that bias."

Not sure if unfamiliar with cats, or unfamiliar with sexual slang.

Calling someone a Tomcat doesn't mean that he probably likes to eat mice, brother.

I'll add that maybe you're not familiar with comics to the extent you think either? Cat-man has been done twenty or thirty times, probably, most notably literally as a gender-swap of Catwoman that competed with her for thievery purposes.

Vault101:

huh....interesting...

Lono Shrugged:

There was also a great story on Ennis' run about an abused mob wife who hunts and kills the woman who manipulated her into marrying into the mob (There is more to it than that.)
.

that sounds cool...having never read punisher before is there an antry point? like say a trade paperback? does the arc have a name?

for somone who deals witht the violent and grotesuqe....Ennis always seemed to be able to write women (more or less well anyhow)

The arc was called widowmaker and you can get the trade pretty cheap.

It's not the best story on the run (I think it's one of the weakest) There are some great female characters throughout including a damaged ex-C.I.A. agent who connects with Frank because he is as broken as she is. Also an arc where they explore human traffiking (This was 2004) Ennis can be hit and miss with female characters. But when he gets them, he nails them. He makes them tough without losing the things that make them women. You can get any single trade on the run, (It's a ten trade run) but I would suggest starting at the start. There is a running plot, but every episode is pretty much self contained so you won't be too lost.

I would suggest reading Ennis' whole run and Jason Aaron's run under PunisherMax. Ennis' Frank is a cold, emotionless death machine who sometimes shows his compassion and humanity. (usually in violent ways) Very similar to Judge Dredd when he is written by Wagner. Aaron's run explores who Castle is and why. With a great running plot against The Kingpin and a disturbing and hilarious Bullseye.

It has some emotional gut punches and sees The Punisher homeless and harried before an awesome climax. Great reading there with some great female characters throughout. It's a 4 trade series with a running plot so I would start at the start.

I love how i'm blamed in the article for something that makes the writer uncomfortable (the catwoman entry), there's plenty of animal themed burglars, usually foxes, there's no reason a cat themed one will make a regular person cringe.

inu-kun:
I love how i'm blamed in the article for something that makes the writer uncomfortable (the catwoman entry), there's plenty of animal themed burglars, usually foxes, there's no reason a cat themed one will make a regular person cringe.

I don't recall anyone mentioning your profile name in the article.

As people have mentioned, there are gender swaps (at least personality wise, if not costume or "theme" wise) of these characters already... Why not have a new IP or character in the series turn up? It feels like it's been a while, and DC in particular has a great opportunity to do so with the New 52!

Lono Shrugged:

The arc was called widowmaker and you can get the trade pretty cheap.

It's not the best story on the run (I think it's one of the weakest) There are some great female characters throughout including a damaged ex-C.I.A. agent who connects with Frank because he is as broken as she is. Also an arc where they explore human traffiking (This was 2004) Ennis can be hit and miss with female characters. But when he gets them, he nails them. He makes them tough without losing the things that make them women. You can get any single trade on the run, (It's a ten trade run) but I would suggest starting at the start. There is a running plot, but every episode is pretty much self contained so you won't be too lost.
.

I looked it up as I can gather its called Punisher MAX? (under the "max" imprint) and ennis did like 1-70?

if I start from there then that will have everything?

anyway thanks!

Er, Bob, Catwoman is already a gender-swapped version of an archetype that is thousands of years old: the sexy, flashy, untrustworthy gentleman who is a bit too popular with the ladies to be respectable among manly men. It's not like Gambit's character would improve if he started wearing tights.

Similarly, Nexus and the Punisher are ideas that should be left on the cutting room floor entirely, not rebooted for the sake of having more Strong Female Characters. If you want a female Angel of Justice, fine, but think up a better origin story, a better costume, and a better supporting cast.

Vault101:
snip

Yep, it's a fresh take on the character. It's not connected to the normal Marvel universe in any way and there are no capes or powered people.

Ennis did another run on the Marvel Knights imprint that was a bit more along the lines of Preacher, Hitman or the Boys. It's silly, wacky and a ton of fun. But it's ain't anywhere near as hardcore

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

See also:

dragonswarrior:
Ha!! An appropriate application of Aikido, or any comparable martial art and that beefcake wouldn't have had a chance.

Everyone's always so obsessed with the striking...

No offense to you as a tiny person, but that's because when you're actually trying to hurt someone striking is what MATTERS, and weight/size is as much or more of an advantage in grappling as it is in striking.

Anyone that's fought unarmed for sport will tell you that the unarmed leagues have strongly-defined weight-classes even when there aren't separate leagues by gender for a very, very good reason. Anyone that's fought for a living will be too busy laughing at your foolishness for even thinking it was a question that they won't answer you at all.

The defensive aspects of unarmed styles are largely exactly that when you have a reach disadvantage-- a way to prevent yourself from losing long enough to get away and inflict enough injury in the process to make sure you can outrun your attacker. While you can always get lucky, anyone that tells you that you should try to actually turn a fight around on a larger opponent with your superior kung-fu is pretty much completely insane. A featherweight black-belt in half a dozen styles that actually tires to count rounds against even a low-ranked heavyweight in the ring... tend to get carried out on a stretcher, which, again, is why no reputable league runs mixed-weight bouts and in some states it's actually illegal.

(In the context of comic characters obviously super-powers render this irrelevant, and if you want to be 'realistic' you can always make your female characters relatively large by standard female standards... most artists actually do this anyway, because tall means attractive to a lot of them I think.)

Robyrt:
Er, Bob, Catwoman is already a gender-swapped version of an archetype that is thousands of years old: the sexy, flashy, untrustworthy gentleman who is a bit too popular with the ladies to be respectable among manly men. It's not like Gambit's character would improve if he started wearing tights.

Similarly, Nexus and the Punisher are ideas that should be left on the cutting room floor entirely, not rebooted for the sake of having more Strong Female Characters. If you want a female Angel of Justice, fine, but think up a better origin story, a better costume, and a better supporting cast.

This. Gender/race/whatever swapping an existent character feels like cheating.

You steal the identity of an old character which fans loved and destroy him, pissing his fans meanwhile, and them paste it into a "new" swapped character for sake of social justice. Not only it is trolling but is also lazy and uncreative as heck. You are getting the fame from an established character with minimal work. If anything, this hurts minorities, makes them look like that they need gifts from the white men instead of producing something new.

If you want to construct a new concept of an old character do it from scratch.

Also, the homophobia thing. Think about a het guy flirting with a lesbian. Do you think that he is being intolerant and rapey? Well, it is the same when a gay guy flirts with a man that he knows is straight.

"Imagine, however, if she were a man. Flirtatious, with form fitting clothing that emphasizes secondary sex characteristics, lithe, morally ambiguous, and working as a dashing burglar. Admit it, just contemplating this is making you somewhat uncomfortable, isn't it?"

Damnit, you got me: I'm shuddering with barely contained disgust and sexual insecurity, and now I'm going to go beat up a homosexual to feel better about myself. Jesus, the condescension....

Tone aside, interesting article: given that superhero universe continuity is basically meaningless, I don't see why an established character can't be reborn as someone more diverse (after all, isn't that why we already have Supergirl/woman and Batgirl/woman?). That said, treating the recreation as merely an aesthetic change - "Your favourite hero, now with more melanin/oestrogen!" - is just politically correct pandering. To elaborate, a female Punisher would have to be more than "Grrr, I was raped and now I must kill rapists!"; perhaps Flora Castle is a police officer who is gradually becoming more and more disillusioned by the sheer volume of violent crime perpetrated against women. Perhaps she witnesses one mugging too many and snaps, killing the perpetrator. Perhaps she is protected by the rest of the force against legal repercussion and struggles to come to terms with both the disproportionate punishment and police corruption. Perhaps she decides she can use this corruption to noble purposes and becomes the skulled vigilante we all know and love.

There, I just wrote a new Punisher comic DC: I'll have my millions of dollars now please!

Halyah:
Flirting with batwoman would be pointless for a man. She's a lesbian.

It might be pointless, but when has that ever stopped sexy dudes from flirting with someone?

ZZoMBiE13:
I am a card carrying feminist on just about every topic. Diversity, gender equality, tolerance, these are the principals I have lived my life by and I have no intention of changing any of that.

But for the love of God, don't change the Punisher. Please. It's bad enough he went on ghost busting adventures a few years back. I like the idea of a female centric Punisher-like character though. Just not Frank.

I'd be all for a PUNISHER INC. kind of book though. Where Frank teaches his trade to other survivors of violence and they go on their own criminal punishment adventures and such. I'd buy that kind of book in a heartbeat so long as they didn't make the female version a pointless cheesecake character. If she had some depth, I'd be there in a second.

^This

RossaLincoln:
The Switch: 3 Classic Characters That Should Be Gender Swapped

"Which is to say, the actual victims of horrific crimes would have equal motivation, if not more so, to be obsessed with payback."

Read Full Article

You have NO IDEA what the Punisher is about. His war on criminals cleared up all the people responsible for his families death VERY quickly. All their death did was make him realize that the guilty go unpunished for crimes they commit. It is not about revenge or "payback" it is about the punishment of the guilty. If you want a revenge story pick a different comic character whose main goal is really that. image

I'm not sure what value it would bring to swap genders of established characters. They need to produce legitimate new characters with their own stories rather than slapping breasts on male characters and a woman/girl word in the name. Changing cat woman from an agile female to a muscle bound man would be a terrible switch.

I really don't think we need more run and gun heroes in general. Female characters always get stuck in shitty roles where they have to be the gunner or the stealth/rogue character. People like the Black Widow are little more than spies with no powers.

But then, to be fair, it's also weird to see a super powered female knocking a giant through buildings. So maybe it's a suspension of disbelief thing? I don't know. I think it's weird when I see scrawny peter parker doing it too.

We need to find better female characters. I'm sure they already exist and just need the elevation to the front line. But that's not something anyone can really force. Shoehorning them in by abusing an existing IP is wrong. But we also can't make new heroes more popular.

You know, it's kind of funny. Cats have become associated with femininity, but at the time Catwoman originated, cat burglars were largely male. Or, rather, were largely identified as male in the public consciousness. I mean, it wouldn't be long until that changed, but I suspect it's less because of the femininity of the title and more because of the excuse to get attractive women in tight clothing.

Halyah:
Flirting with batwoman would be pointless for a man. She's a lesbian.

If Catman's already flirting with Batman, I'm not sure that her sexuality would particularly be a stopping point for him. And the character referenced, Jack Harkness, flirts with everything with a pulse--and even that's potentially optional for a 51st century boy.

Unless this version of Batman is also gay, which I'm perfectly fine with. The outrage would be huuuuuuge, but I'd be fine with it.

SourMilk:

If a girl was going to face a man like that then I expect her be the She-hulk

Personally, I'd just expect her to be more competent than Frank Castle. Which, in this movie, should put her in roughly 95% of the population.

Zachary Amaranth:

Halyah:
Flirting with batwoman would be pointless for a man. She's a lesbian.

If Catman's already flirting with Batman, I'm not sure that her sexuality would particularly be a stopping point for him. And the character referenced, Jack Harkness, flirts with everything with a pulse--and even that's potentially optional for a 51st century boy.

Unless this version of Batman is also gay, which I'm perfectly fine with. The outrage would be huuuuuuge, but I'd be fine with it.

Batman is heterosexual?! *Looks completely shocked*

I couldn't resist...

TiberiusEsuriens:

Halyah:
Flirting with batwoman would be pointless for a man. She's a lesbian.

It might be pointless, but when has that ever stopped sexy dudes from flirting with someone?

Yeah good point. Would be funny to see how he'd react when she points out she ain't interested.

Jim_Callahan:

No offense to you as a tiny person, but that's because when you're actually trying to hurt someone striking is what MATTERS, and weight/size is as much or more of an advantage in grappling as it is in striking.

Anyone that's fought unarmed for sport will tell you that the unarmed leagues have strongly-defined weight-classes even when there aren't separate leagues by gender for a very, very good reason. Anyone that's fought for a living will be too busy laughing at your foolishness for even thinking it was a question that they won't answer you at all.

The defensive aspects of unarmed styles are largely exactly that when you have a reach disadvantage-- a way to prevent yourself from losing long enough to get away and inflict enough injury in the process to make sure you can outrun your attacker. While you can always get lucky, anyone that tells you that you should try to actually turn a fight around on a larger opponent with your superior kung-fu is pretty much completely insane. A featherweight black-belt in half a dozen styles that actually tires to count rounds against even a low-ranked heavyweight in the ring... tend to get carried out on a stretcher, which, again, is why no reputable league runs mixed-weight bouts and in some states it's actually illegal.

(In the context of comic characters obviously super-powers render this irrelevant, and if you want to be 'realistic' you can always make your female characters relatively large by standard female standards... most artists actually do this anyway, because tall means attractive to a lot of them I think.)

*sighs* Yes, weight means a lot... in SPORT fighting. I'm not talking about sport fighting, where only the muscle bound fight junkies go.

And I will grant you it's usually the deciding factor in actual fighting too. But DEFINITELY not always. And if you were familiar with Aikido, or a similar grappling martial art, then you would know this. Hell, you even made your example of a featherweight black belt against a mediocre heavyweight in the context of sport fighting. Look. Sport fighting is NOT real fighting. There are rules, and the fighters are there to put on a show. That's how they make their money. In real life there are many very easy ways of taking down a fighter that outclasses you in weight and reach that don't look very good or showy and cause serious damage, which is why they aren't used in sport fighting. In the context of an actual street brawl the featherweight blackbelt has a very good chance. Not a guaranteed 100% win, certainly, but a very good chance, because they AREN'T THERE TO DO ROUNDS. They're there to fuck each other up. And you honestly do not need a lot of muscle to seriously fuck someone up. It's actually scary how easy it is.

Additionally, in context of the Punisher scenario, the woman would of course be a comic book hero, i.e, OP'd as all get out. So she would undoubtedly be a martial arts master of some kind, and since yes in general women don't do as well at martial arts that focus on striking then odds are she'd be a grappler. When you are buff as fuck, that puts a lot of strain on your tendons and joints. A martial art then that is specifically designed to manipulate joints, and use an opponents force against them, would do wonders against super buff Russian dudes used to taking punches in the face.

Also, I have 10 years in Aikido, 7 years in Shotokan Karate, and am 6"4'. While I am a master in neither art, I have fought masters (who are always shorter and lighter than me) in both, and it's friggin terrifying.

Hence, why one shouldn't make assumptions.

Halyah:
[

Batman is heterosexual?! *Looks completely shocked*

I couldn't resist...[/quote]

I'm not sure. The comics have been so vague on the matter, but you know how fanon works....

Zachary Amaranth:

Halyah:

Batman is heterosexual?! *Looks completely shocked*

I couldn't resist...

I'm not sure. The comics have been so vague on the matter, but you know how fanon works....

Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

Halyah:

Zachary Amaranth:

Halyah:

Batman is heterosexual?! *Looks completely shocked*

I couldn't resist...

I'm not sure. The comics have been so vague on the matter, but you know how fanon works....

Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

There's even a title now: 'Mounting Everest'.

OT: Swaps don't generally thrill me, unless it's a 'passing the torch' kinda thing. Then again, reboots in general usually annoy me (particularly if you end up seeing different variations of the same origin story multiple times ... Spiderman, I'm looking at you).

theluckyjosh:

Halyah:

Zachary Amaranth:

I'm not sure. The comics have been so vague on the matter, but you know how fanon works....

Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

There's even a title now: 'Mounting Everest'.

Pretty sure tvtropes had this covered ages ago to be honest.

Halyah:
Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

I knooooow, right? It makes no sense, either. It's reasonable to assume homosexuality until proven otherwise, right?

Zachary Amaranth:

Halyah:
Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

I knooooow, right? It makes no sense, either. It's reasonable to assume homosexuality until proven otherwise, right?

It would certainly make a lot of sense....

Halyah:

theluckyjosh:

Halyah:
Give them a single hint and they'll take it all the way to Mount Everest and back before noon.

There's even a title now: 'Mounting Everest'.

Pretty sure tvtropes had this covered ages ago to be honest.

Even before that, really.
Slash has been around as long as fan fiction has.

theluckyjosh:

Halyah:

theluckyjosh:

There's even a title now: 'Mounting Everest'.

Pretty sure tvtropes had this covered ages ago to be honest.

Even before that, really.
Slash has been around as long as fan fiction has.

So basically since the stone age in other words. Or whenever humans first started making up stories.

RossaLincoln:

softclocks:
We have Catman and we had female Punisher.

Just sayin'

Catman isn't really anything at all like Catwoman, aside from cat themed outfit. They briefly worked together of course, but he's a total misogynist so she ditched him. Definitely not what I'm talking about here. Also aside from the Mangaverse version, which isn't close to what I'm getting at here, the listed Women Punishers weren't *the* The Punisher, they were his companions/sidekicks.

The female equivalent of Punisher or Catwoman wouldn't necessarily be exact duplicates only with the opposite gender's genitalia.

Halyah:

theluckyjosh:

Halyah:
Pretty sure tvtropes had this covered ages ago to be honest.

Even before that, really.
Slash has been around as long as fan fiction has.

So basically since the stone age in other words. Or whenever humans first started making up stories.

You need at least the printing press (so you have means to distribute stories, that can have fans that can 'fix' them).
I was originally thinking the advent of the BBS, but turns out I was wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction

theluckyjosh:

Halyah:

theluckyjosh:

Even before that, really.
Slash has been around as long as fan fiction has.

So basically since the stone age in other words. Or whenever humans first started making up stories.

You need at least the printing press (so you have means to distribute stories, that can have fans that can 'fix' them).
I was originally thinking the advent of the BBS, but turns out I was wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction

People could distribute stories long before the printing press. Word of mouth and writing it down the good ol' way works just as well. It's just a lot slower.

Halyah:
People could distribute stories long before the printing press. Word of mouth and writing it down the good ol' way works just as well. It's just a lot slower.

Giving a completely new and different meaning to the phrase "oral tradition."

Zachary Amaranth:

Halyah:
People could distribute stories long before the printing press. Word of mouth and writing it down the good ol' way works just as well. It's just a lot slower.

Giving a completely new and different meaning to the phrase "oral tradition."

That is one way to put it.

Nope, not interested in a sex-swapped version of either Cat Woman or the Punisher ( I'm not really familiar with Nexus, so I can't really say if his sex effected his perceived gender role to me); It does seem lazy to me, at least if it is a straight sex-swap, and lacking in narrative finesse to attain, and I'll be honest, I am not really comfortable with it.

But that's just my opinion, mind you, and I certainly wouldn't tell people they COULDN'T do this.

I'm just not going to buy it.

Interesting article, though!

Male cat character has been super successfully done already: See red dwarf. Yea baby.

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