A Defense of Thorin's Claim on the Treasure of Erebor

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J Tyran:

TravelerSF:
Didn't Smaug just chill inside the mountain for centuries, Scrooge McDucking in his gold, not really bothering anyone until Thorin's party showed up and pissed him off? I'd say that the fact that Laketown had managed to survive so long right next door a dragon's nest until Thorin appeared heavily indicates that it's destruction was indirectly caused by him.

Laketown actually aided the Dwarfs though, thats what provoked Smaug. They armed and supplied Thorin and his group knowing he was going to the Mountain, obviously that had the potential to piss the Dragon off if he failed.

The way I see it the rulers of Laketown share the responsibility of Thorin provoking the Dragons rampage.

Ah, it had been a tad too long since I had seen the movie it seems. So actually yeah, Laketown was totally prepared to take a risk with poking inside a dragon's nest.

He still had no right to withhold the White Gems of Lasgalen.

I wish Thranduil ordered an arrow in Thorin's face before the iron hill scum showed up.

Geo Da Sponge:
Also, if Bilbo really wanted to solve the situation, why didn't he just take his 14th of the treasure as pure cash and then given it straight to the people of Laketown? He doesn't seem too bothered by the wealth himself, so...

I could be wrong here, but while Thorin was being a giant ass about the treasure he refused to award Bilbo his 14th share because had had not found the Arkenstone, the very task his contact had originally stated. Admittedly Bilbo could have handed the stone over and asked for his share but he was concerned for his friend's sanity/health. Giving Thorin the Arkenstone would likely have made him worse and Bilbo would probably have had no sway at all. The Arkenstone was the highest value and easiest bargaining chip to use.

But anyway, this whole thread is over analysing a simple idea: Thorin was mad with greed and had reached an unstable and dangerous state, going so far as to threaten his own with death. He'd made various goodwill statements to people, contractually binding or otherwise, and then like a douche had gone back on them. Considering the amount of gold he had there was no reason why he couldn't hand over enough to keep everyone happy and still be the richest git in Middle Earth. It was quite obvious that he recognised the Elves' gems as being their property and he witheld them in pure spite. Although elves are huge gits too.

Whatislove:
He still had no right to withhold the White Gems of Lasgalen.

I wish Thranduil ordered an arrow in Thorin's face before the iron hill scum showed up.

Except these White shits of who gives a fuck are complete and utter fabrication by Peter Jackson to give the elves a reason not to look like the complete corpse scavanging vultures that they are. In the books, Thranduil refused to pay proper prices for the services of the dwarves of Erebor because he was funky like that and that's what led to the conflict between them. When the dragon dies he takes his army there for one reason: to rob the mountain dry before anyone else gets there. He suffers from greed just as much as thorin does.

And while the books make it clear that no one is in the right, there is one tiny difference between thorin and the rest of the fucking lot: thorin is guilty just of not wanting to give away from his treasure (and i say again: HIS and HIS ALONE as rightfull heir to Thror. Middle-Earth follows a clearly feudal system, and by that logic he king owns EVERYTHING in his kingdom, so Thorin owns EVERYTHING in Erebor). The elves and humans are wrong because they thought: "13 dwarves and a mountain filled with gold? Time to get me some of that sweet loot!". They are thieves pure and simple, and Thorin, though morally wrong in his actions, has every god damn right to tell them to fuck off home when they show up with a fucking army demanding he hand over his wealth.

And just a side-note: I was weird like that and decided to give this trilogy a chance and even enjoyed the first movie and bits of the second. But after seeing the third ... I regret ever thinking there was a chance of this beeing good. My god when everything is said and done this trilogy sucks.

XDSkyFreak:

Whatislove:
He still had no right to withhold the White Gems of Lasgalen.

I wish Thranduil ordered an arrow in Thorin's face before the iron hill scum showed up.

Except these White shits of who gives a fuck are complete and utter fabrication by Peter Jackson to give the elves a reason not to look like the complete corpse scavanging vultures that they are. In the books, Thranduil refused to pay proper prices for the services of the dwarves of Erebor because he was funky like that and that's what led to the conflict between them. When the dragon dies he takes his army there for one reason: to rob the mountain dry before anyone else gets there. He suffers from greed just as much as thorin does.

And while the books make it clear that no one is in the right, there is one tiny difference between thorin and the rest of the fucking lot: thorin is guilty just of not wanting to give away from his treasure (and i say again: HIS and HIS ALONE as rightfull heir to Thror. Middle-Earth follows a clearly feudal system, and by that logic he king owns EVERYTHING in his kingdom, so Thorin owns EVERYTHING in Erebor). The elves and humans are wrong because they thought: "13 dwarves and a mountain filled with gold? Time to get me some of that sweet loot!". They are thieves pure and simple, and Thorin, though morally wrong in his actions, has every god damn right to tell them to fuck off home when they show up with a fucking army demanding he hand over his wealth.

And just a side-note: I was weird like that and decided to give this trilogy a chance and even enjoyed the first movie and bits of the second. But after seeing the third ... I regret ever thinking there was a chance of this beeing good. My god when everything is said and done this trilogy sucks.

Well, the gems actually aren't a complete and utter fabrication by Peter Jackson, they were appropriated from other things in the lore.

More precisely, since Peter Jackson cannot use anything explicitly from the Silmarillion (or anything that isn't the hobbit or lotr), he adapted the story of King Thingol. The white gems were one of the silmarils, Thingol gave the gems to the dwarves to be set in a necklace but the silmaril (the gems) corrupted the dwarves who no longer wanted to part with the completed necklace (for which Thingol was going to pay a hefty sum). Thingol killed the dwarves that made the necklace and was then killed before he could escape the fortress.

This was JRR Tolkiens story about why Elves and Dwarves have such animosity.

And, in fact, Peter Jackson's adaption is very true to the story of Thingol. It was in fact Thror who was too greedy and kept the jewels (and necklace). Thranduil was going to pay the agreed amount.

The Hobbit (the book) is not exactly true to Tolkien's later, more complete universe. JRR Tolkien made several revisions to the hobbit, changing several chapters, and even began re-writing the entire book. You can read the 3 unfinished chapters of the new hobbit in the histories of middle earth, those 3 chapters were already the length of the entire first edition hobbit novel.

Peter Jackson was just keeping true to his established adapted universe, and I quite like the White gems of Lasgalen adaption.

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