The Big Picture: Age of Heroes

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Goodness people - if all you are taking from this is "He mentioned Dark Knight Rises/Man of Steel with Green Lantern/Catwoman", then not only have you missed his point; you have proved it as well.

Bob's point is that all the criticism that could be used against superhero movies as a GENRE has already come and gone. Whether it's abject awfulness like Catwomen to barely missing the mark like The Dark Knight Rises. And nothing has stopped the Juggernaut. The GENRE has grown, it has become more dominant. It's grown to the point of being self-perpetuating. It has so much momentum that opinions of a single movie don't matter. Even if a bad movie kills an entire franchise, the GENRE has become too strong to be toppled. Or at least, it has no threats in the foreseeable future.

Rituro:
*quietly* I still think Daredevil was pretty decent.

Now, Punisher, on the other hand...

I didn't care much for Daredevil when I saw it in theaters, but I own the director's cut and I really enjoy it.

The Thomas Jane Punisher is pretty bad, but it's a guilty pleasure. It's one of those movies that every time FX has is on, I somehow end up watching a good chunk of it. War Zone was terrible though... just terrible.

Earthfield:
I don't care much about when or if it's gonna end. I know of they go, but that time, I will no longer care, like the cop action movies from the 80's, which I love, but no longer crave.

But it's interesting to think how far they will go with this. Considering they're mostly adapting stories from 20 years ago or even longer than that.

Will they make it to superior Spiderman/Iron Man?

New 52?

That's another big difference between this fad and previous ones. Adaptation. Spaghetti Westerns weren't adaptations of other media. Some horrors movies were, but it was never the focus, and most of them are original, same for action flicks, so, it's interesting the newest fad is based on adaptations and rarely the spotlight is in original super hero movies... which reminds me, I'm not from the states, so is Meteor Man original or is an adaptation?

Well the DC Animated movies (Which thus far have been really damn good) are already dipping into New 52, what with JL: Flashpoint Paradox (At the end), JL: War, and the upcoming JL: Throne of Atlantis. In terms of live action adaptation of the newer material, yeah, it probably won't happen for a while.

Jason Chapman:
I can imagine Batfleck Vs. Baleman in DC's Crisis...

I want Singerman vs Snyderman.

Nuxxy:
Goodness people - if all you are taking from this is "He mentioned Dark Knight Rises/Man of Steel with Green Lantern/Catwoman", then not only have you missed his point; you have proved it as well.

Bob's point is that all the criticism that could be used against superhero movies as a GENRE has already come and gone. Whether it's abject awfulness like Catwomen to barely missing the mark like The Dark Knight Rises. And nothing has stopped the Juggernaut. The GENRE has grown, it has become more dominant. It's grown to the point of being self-perpetuating. It has so much momentum that opinions of a single movie don't matter. Even if a bad movie kills an entire franchise, the GENRE has become too strong to be toppled. Or at least, it has no threats in the foreseeable future.

Yes and that's the kind of genre security we always wanted back when the best we could hope for was a Batman or Superman film every 3 years or so and pretty much nothing else.

Plus B&R never killed anything except Batman movies for a while since Blade came out the very next year and started the Marvel tsunami.

Honestly, I think I might get tired of it if it goes on that long. I like my stories to end eventually. Know that everything is wrapped up. It gets a little too tiring for me when things just keep going and going and you have to keep all this stuff straight.

LazyAza:
I think we're going to get several more american film adaptations of japanese manga/anime similar to what was done with Edge of Tomorrow.

Didn't Edge of Tomorrow kind of bomb? I really liked it, but my understanding is that the numbers were a disappointment.

I'm literally in the middle of watching a big bubble burst. It's kind of exciting.

"...It's possible that they might not."

That's how fads work, Bob. Superheros are big now, until... they're not anymore. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion? You assume that these franchises will remain popular. But, that's the thing, these markets change suddenly, and drastically. Suddenly the next genre defining Star Wars syle film will come out, and Hollywood will have a glut of superheroes that no one cares about anymore. These companies stand to lose a lot of money when this DOES happen, if they can't adapt. Other companies will adapt, and chase after the new fad, while mistakenly believing that Superheroes aren't profitable anymore. No one who found themselves in a bubble fad ever thought the gravy train would end. Then it did. Go look up Tulipomania.

This genre isn't self perpetuating, and it isn't permanent. It will probably last at least another decade, since we're in the middle of a golden age, but in the end it's a fad. Traditional narratives haven't died either. People will always want more then never ending genre installments with no nutritional value.

Your vision has been clouded by your bias, bob, but I will feel sympathetic when your Marvel films are replaced by football movies, or films about clowns fighting dinosaurs or something.

Paul10238:
Yes and that's the kind of genre security we always wanted back when the best we could hope for was a Batman or Superman film every 3 years or so and pretty much nothing else.

Plus B&R never killed anything except Batman movies for a while since Blade came out the very next year and started the Marvel tsunami.

In my opinion even Michael Bay vehicles like Transformers and TMNT share enough traits to be benefiting from and empowering the same tsunami. If Transformers 4 can rake in a billion, there is no way even a sure winner like Batman completely failing will stop the genre.

This video was like a nightmare, I can't have superhero movies perpetuating forever. I mean seriously, if you've seen one film, you've seen them all, and the idea that we'll keep getting the same bland story with okay acting and dialogue is just too much. We need more popular films that don't just feel like disposable product, and to me all these films just seem like Hollywood is trying to sell me something rather than actually make art.

I'm not asking that we get Jean Luc-Godard to have billion dollar budgets so he can make films for a wide audience (Though I would love to see what he can do with it). Just give me films like Snowpiercer, that's an action film that actually feels like it's not just trying to make money. Even if it's a little blatant in it's social commentary, the details of that film really lets it shine above the types of films typically coming out of the studio system these days and it's a film that I think can appeal to everyone. Or hell, give us more films like Obvious Child, a movie that at least I think has wide appeal, but definitely has the personal touches that can make it stand out.

You forgot the most important part of Newton's law Bob.

Entropy.

Any object in motion is in danger of entropic forces. No market can expand indefinitely. The bubble will burst like it has for any and every pop cultural phenomenon in history. Nothing remains mainstream forever and one day these movies will lose their lustre and something else will take over as the zeitgeist. Cape movies are not the future of movies. They are a blip, at best a new genre.

I still have a desktop PC by the way...

I think something we have to remember is that unlike Spaghetti Westerns, Horror, or any other genre which came and passed as the in things, super hero movies aren't a genre onto themselves. Going in order for the MCU, we have:

A techno-thriller/drama
A fugitive movie
Another techno-thriller/drama
A fantasy movie
A war movie
A team up movie
An action drama about terrorism
A fantasy movie
A political-thriller
A space action/comedy

And that's just the MCU, is Warner can actually get its act together we may have a similar pattern of 'same universe, different genre' done. Something else to remember is that trends don't form or collapse overnight, and with how gradual it actually is it's well within the realm of possibility that a change can be done to not-yet in production movies to reflect these changes (Marvel has already done so twice at the least so far). When Bob said it might not go away any time soon (or at all) I have to agree with him. We know that at the very least Marvel will be doing these until Infinity Wars part 2 no matter what (and probably long after that), and by that time a very large part of the market (everyone in elementary, middle and high school) will have grown up with this always having been the norm.

Personally, I think serialized storytelling his here to stay, and that those who manage to make it work long term will be those who can balance self perpetuating storytelling with accessibility to new or previously uninterested viewers

Darth_Payn:
In addition to the misplacing TDKR and MOS among the bad comic-book movies, I also have to call out Bob for implying anymore X-Men movies at all is a bad thing. I thought you liked DOFP?
But, I'm not worried about the state of superhero movies just yet. I have faith that Marvel and WB know what they're doing and can learn from their mistakes.
And I should pick up Grant Morrison's Supergods one of these days. In fact, do an episode on him! He's a pretty cool dude.

captcha: which one is math?
Like, in the Adventure Time sense?

Remember if Bob doesn't like it, it's a bomb regardless of it making $1 billion and if he likes it and it bombs then it's because everyone who didn't see it is a douchebag.

Also Bob's a former employee of a Disney subsidiary and it's likely he still has some sources there so attacking their rivals is normal. Go look at his overthinker videos and twitter account to see the Sony/Microsoft killed gaming and that anyone who likes those systems is a woman beating racist spiels as he is an extreme fringe Nintendo fan..

How to kill the Marvel Cinematic Universe

1. Antman and Doctor Strange under perform.
2. Disney remove Kevin Feige and cancel other films based on outlier characters (black panther, Ms Marvel etc)
3. Disney plays it safe with a focus on sequels of already successful characters (we have seen this already with Pixar)
4. Audience gets bored of the rehashes the end.

Pyrian:

LazyAza:
I think we're going to get several more american film adaptations of japanese manga/anime similar to what was done with Edge of Tomorrow.

Didn't Edge of Tomorrow kind of bomb? I really liked it, but my understanding is that the numbers were a disappointment.

It broke even thanks to the international audience.

Merklyn236:
I think the real interesting question will be whether this is a true Superhero age, or if this is MARVEL's age. Let's face it, if Batman versus Superman tanks (IMHO possible, but not likely if only for how many people will go see it because they expect the trainwreck) WB/DC might pull back from their plans for a Justice League universe. That leaves Marvel's properties as the only hot ones at the box office. Based on all the leaked discussions from the Sony break-in, seems like Sony isn't really looking to go anywhere with Spiderman now, so that leaves Fox and Marvel films alone making these things. And Fox is making one film, what, every two-three years? Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Side note: I always find it fun when MovieBob gets so worked up his accent starts slipping back in.

Fox is more ambitious than that.

FF this year

2016
Deadpool
Gambit
X-Men: Apocalypse

2017
Wolverine 2
FF 2

"Remember, there was a time when the superhero didn't dominate comic books either"

Still doesn't in many countries, just sayin'.

Personally, I'm starting to reach my limit for watching superhero movies. Sure, there are a lot of them I really enjoyed and some I'm looking forward to, but the subject matter was always in the category 'big dumb fun'. There's only so much of that I can continue to enjoy before I want something with a little more substance. For me they're basically the movie equivalent of Call of Duty: expertly crafted for the lowest common denominator. That's fine and can be a lot of fun, but at some point I'll say "no thanks".

I dunno, it's just very hard to still get excited for a new superhero movie. Maybe because I never grew up with American superheroes or something. Batman was basically the only one I knew growing up (always thought Superman was the most boring superhero ever). Hell, before the Marvel movies, I'd hardly ever heard of Iron Man or Captain America. Avengers? Wasn't that some 60's TV series?

It will end how it always ends. Over saturation, consumer fatigue, and the rise of new trends. I can't wait either, can not wait.

One of my favorite youtubers did a video on a subject similar to this one back in November of last year. Though while Bob seems to believe that this gravy train will just keep on rolling on its biscuit wheels, this guy seems to believe we're heading for a crash.

Meh, I'm already looking forward to GoG2, the next Captain America, Suicide Squad, also Wonder Women. So what's the issue here? Are you complaining that super hero moves are being overdone? I don't see that personally.

Movies like these only become an issue when the plot and story lines are reused again and again without anything different being done. Take GoG for instance, you don't even have to look at it as a super hero movie per say. It's more Star Wars then it is X-Men.

Super Heroes aren't like zombie movies. Now zombie movies I will have gripes over. I mean just how many times to movie makers and also game makers plan to show a zombie apocalypse? Everything about the genre is now cliche but yet we still keep getting them.

I mean, the last movie that did anything interesting with zombies was Shaun of the Dead, and it was by making it into a comedy. And before that, 28 Days Later, and that was by making them run fast. I mean come one!

IGN would do every single one of those Nova movie articles and a top 10 list.
Since the zombie genre STILL refuses to die, superheroes are definitely gonna be around for a long time.

I have thought about this myself. There would have to be a large number of flops in a row for this thing to fail, and it just seems unlikely to happen. I do wonder about how excited I will be about it when they start making other people be the main heroes. Part of what I love is the fact that I collected these characters in comics form pretty much non-stop from the time I was 7 till I was about 25, and I still buy collections of books I'm interested in.

But when Steven Rogers isn't Captain America, someone else is wearing the Iron Man armor, etc., will I still be that excited about it?

We'll see I guess. Ultimately, I only ever cared in comics about good stories. You can take my favorite characters, put a shitty writer on them (Hulk is my favorite, and the whole Red Hulk thing was a trudge at best), and I'm not a huge fan anymore. The big events of the last few years have been such a tremendous shit pile (in my opinion) that the actual Marvel comics themselves have become a lot more unattractive than they had been in previous years. Couple that with their need to constantly try to raise the book prices and it's hard to drop money on a book that I'm not sure about anymore.

Edit: My one criticism is that channels like CNN almost never touch this stuff. There are a bunch of people out there who are up to their neck all the time in honest to god real newsworthy issues that this stuff doesn't rate. There is the aspect where they will take their family or kids to see them as an escape, but when they walk out of the theatre, they go right back to business and this stuff isn't thought about again.

If anything it's a keen demonstration to how much free time people, in general, have on their hands. I mostly skip a lot of those one off movie announcements because they aren't worth my time, but that is me. They will remain click bait till it all crashes.

Interesting points, Bob. I personally still think this is a bubble that will one day pop, but your example in the end of superheros not always dominating comics was a fascinating one. You're right, this could just evolve to be the new normal.

But could you stop with the random shots against films like Dark Knight Rises? The silent majority of us value your opinions and reviews even when they contradict our own, and even though I loved Rises I still want to hear why you didn't. But look at this thread: half of it, including me, is sidetracked discussion about your opinion of what the "bad" superhero movies are. You obviously don't hold Rises on anywhere near the same level of contempt as Catwoman or other notorious duds, and overall reviews for the film are very good, so you know you're in the minority on your opinion. Proceeding to speak of Rises in such terms anyway feels like you're baiting us.

I've been expecting the bubble will burst since Thor 2. Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but it represented a problem with bringing comics to the movies: the comics themselves. The big epic stories we know can be years apart, leaving a lot of stories that get generic, repetitive and underwhelming. Factor in how much of the hype can be around the well known heroes being used, the actors involved, and the hope for the big event stories (note how people want planet hulk, not a hulk sequel with the Leader), and it's clear that when the cool stories slow down (after Thanos, you can't go back the level of the space phantoms, the u-foes, and even the Masters of Evil would seem lame), the favorite actors leave, and the movies fall into the same "good guys always win" trap the comics did, and Marvel movies will end up like Bond films and slasher flicks: good for the diehard fans, but hard to sell otherwise.

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aghhh ..I cant take the idea of only superhero films theater for other 20 or more years

Pyrian:

LazyAza:
I think we're going to get several more american film adaptations of japanese manga/anime similar to what was done with Edge of Tomorrow.

Didn't Edge of Tomorrow kind of bomb? I really liked it, but my understanding is that the numbers were a disappointment.

Oh of course. It bombed hard because no-one outside of japan really knew what it was. But anime such as ghost in the shell and various others have much larger "pull" in a wider more general audience sense so they'd have a higher chance of not bombing completely.

Heck an Attack on Titan movie, which is still supposedly going to happen some day would probably do extremely well. God knows that anime got watched by everyone everywhere. And its not like it would be hard to market "giant creepy monster fights - the movie" to western audiences who don't know about the manga/series.

Seriously? Ant-man is going to be a real movie? I thought that was just part of an SNL sketch. (For those of you who are interested, it's the episode hosted by Chris Pratt.)

I just want a Nova film now.

Bob. I want to make this very clear. You may just have outright terrified me with that last paragraph. I've been saying for years that the state of non-superhero, non-licensed comics is a fucking joke, and that by extension so is the whole industry. I've made the comparison to a world where, in the present day, television mainly consists of two major channels whose entire programming lineups are 24/7 westerns (since that's the genre most associated with the early days of the medium), and a few minor channels that don't get a lot of ratings. But imagining a world where superheroes get that kind of dominance over cinema, and having it pointed out that it's not just a thought experiment but an actual possibility? *shudder* I sense a disturbance in the force. As if thousands of filmmakers with creative, original ideas cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Scarim Coral:
The only way I can see the superheroes films can be shifted to be less popular is probably a new fad (it never occur to me that Superheroes are like the new Western or horror film of this generation until Bob pointed it out) or maybe they outlived their stay, I mean how long can a contiunity can last but yet again Doctor Who is still going strong.

Superheroes basically designed themselves over the better part of a century to keep going. I mean hell with Marvel basically all the heroes they are using have an "out" so to speak. One or two characters in the comics have taken up the mantle of the hero before them. All the studio has to do is organize the movie that finally pulls that trigger, give the old character a good bye, then set up the new character in the roll. Heck if the old actor wants to come back for a movie you can easily write him/her in. Superhero continuity is eternal and given what's coming in Avengers 3 and 4 Marvel is giving its movies the "out" to do reset to zeroes.

What's going to make or break this stuff is going to be the inevitable moment that comes when actors need to be recast.

I don't know if it would kill the genre, but what could really hurt Marvel's Grand Project would be over-commitment followed by panic retrenchment on the multiverse.

How would that work? They'd go big on a ton of new films of increasingly obscure sources, both confident in their ability to churn out hits and also under intense pressure from parent corporation Disney to create ever larger revenue streams (especially in the face of declining revenues elsewhere). But then one of the major films bombs in a devastating way, while several others under-perform for whatever reason. Suddenly Marvel is in trouble - they're under contract for a ton of new films and facing a major liquidity crunch now that revenue streams are lower, and the damage makes potential investors nervous to drive more money back into the firm.

Best case scenario is that Disney can bail them out, paring back a bunch of superhero franchises and leading to re-shuffling at the top that calls into question again the value of such heavily interconnected movies. Worst case scenario is that the liquidity crunch at the company causes the dominoes to fall, and suddenly Marvel is facing bankruptcy - possibly dragging down Disney as well in the prospect.

Only in the mind of madness that is Bob, would The Dark Knight rises be considerd a bomb ( made on a budget of 230 million dollar and brought in 1,084 billion dollars worldwide and has a soild rating of 88 % on RT).
Anyway, I'm sick to death of all these superheros films that are coming. I think the public and the market will soon say ENOUGH!

Watch video...

...well Bob's given me today's nightmare fuel for the future of cinema for the next few decades. :(

That example about all the potential articles and news stories surrounding the hypothetical Nova movie are a perfect example of why I hate the whole nerd internet hype culture. I haven't read the book, but I probably should, since it feels increasingly like the nerd world is living in its own version of Huxley's Brave New World (as I've understood it): a world where you can spend your entire life browsing through, discussing, picking apart, debating and theorizing about completely superficial, fictional entertainment that won't try to shock, surprise or make you question anything, while completely ignoring and shutting out the real world and its complexities.

And fucking Christ, please let it be that superheroes won't dominate the world box office for decades.

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