Fantastic?

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Fantastic?

How much change can go into the new Fantastic Four movie before it stops being an adaptation - and does that even matter?

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I imagine the whole 'going in an opposite direction' the new FF films are doing is a response from the Tim Story films nearly a decade ago; the films were considered too goofy and too silly, so the producers made it more serious.

A Batman Begins for a Batman & Robin. A Fant4stic Four for the 2005 movie.

"But now is the age of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where heroes and their stories arriving onscreen looking like a live-action splash-page is now the expected norm."

Can we stop with this fallacy!

Thor in the comics has the helmet nearly all the time while in the Avengers and Dark world no helmet. Thor from the films could be an extra from any sword and sandal epic in look (what annoys me is they made the helmet then only used it for one scene).

Hawkeye, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver all look nothing like there comic counterparts hardly a live action version of a splash-page.

All the MCU gives us is CGI when it comes to real costumes there no different from Fox, Sony or WB in being afraid.

So far only 3 comic book super heroes get proper real costumes Superman, Spiderman and Captain America.

I'm veeeery interested in seeing how this turns out, but my interest has nothing to do with any investment in the characters or the license or anything to do with the artistic content. If it's bad, reconstructing the trail of behind-the-scenes events leading to it being bad will be a fascinating intellectual exercise, just like when Lone Ranger bombed. If it's good, that will somehow be even more improbable given how ashamed the studio appears to be of this thing.

I think you had it right on the first page, every once in a while FF hits a spite of interest when a good writer gets a hold of it like Mark Millars Ultimate FF, but motsly everyone agrees FF is beyond stale and sucks. DOOM is only occasionally used in an interesting story usually not even involving the FF.

I'm very excited by FOX re-envisioning them from the ground up. I'm very pleased at least with what I've seen so far in that the characters are all in serious roles, even johnny storm. Johnny storm being an immature dick got old about 30 years ago. I keep hearing complaints about how the trailer looks like this or this film. Whatever I don't care, and as a critic, as much as you can, its your job to view each film in a vacuum.

I remain cautiously optimistic for this reboot.

If it was just the Marvel/Disney movies going superhero costumes it would be one thing. But now the Flash on CW is going superhero costumes on TV. Heck Green Arrow even got his mask after it seemed that viewers wanted comic book stuff not "realism".

Ultimate Fantastic Four also seems to get thrown around a bit with the trailer. Well that's just a brilliant idea take a comic book that most people haven't read and base things around that. People don't think Ultimate Fantastic Four when they think of the Fantastic Four they think of one of the great past ages of comic books, the cartoons that the Fantastic Four showed up in, or even the parodies like on The Venture Brothers.

Yea I just can't see this film burning up the box office with the now film cliche of let's put all the heroes in black uniforms like that X-Men movie. After films like Man of Steel got beaten up for being too dark and gloomy while Guardians got praised for bringing the fun back to movies I just don't see a huge demand for dark gritty no fun Fantastic Four.

P-89 Scorpion:
"But now is the age of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where heroes and their stories arriving onscreen looking like a live-action splash-page is now the expected norm."

Can we stop with this fallacy!

I can't speak for Bob, but I get the impression you took that painfully literally, going from the examples you cited. Plus, the examples you cited weren't very good...

Thor from the films could be an extra from any sword and sandal epic in look.

Quite - he looks just like Maximus in Gladiator. I think it's the Ultimate-esque design, red cape and magic armour that does it.

Hawkeye, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver all look nothing like there comic counterparts hardly a live action version of a splash-page.

Hawkeye looks pretty nailed on to his Ultimate variations. As for Wanda? I think her Age Of Ultron design will just be her intro to the MCU as a villain. If she joins the Avengers down the line, will she have the same look? No one can say for sure right now, but I very much doubt it (classic Scarlet Witch on the bigscreen might look a bit goofy, though).

Ditto with Quicksilver on the intro-to-the-MCU idea, too. If he ends up in a dull black-ish suit, however, he'll look just like his Ultimate variant.

All the MCU gives us is CGI

What do you mean by that?

So far only 3 comic book super heroes get proper real costumes Superman, Spiderman and Captain America.

As far as designs and adaptations of material go; Iron Man, War Machine, Black Widow, Hawkeye and Nick Fury, to name a few, would be added to that very incomplete list. To further underline Bob's point there's the Winter Soldier, who, for me at least, is one of the best renditions of a comicbook character ever seen. It's clear Marvel Studios do care about ties to the page, but they've shown from the off that they're mixing classic Marvel and Ultimate as well as adding in a twist here and there (visually speaking).

I don't really care about this 'Fant-4-stic' film, one way or t'other. I think that team - more than most other properties - deserves a pretty decent, faithful Silver Age version, however; something that embodied why the Fantastic Four were so important to comicbook culture. So in that context, I'd have certainly preferred a more page faithful iteration.

Sony and Fox can go die in a ditch somewhere as far as me and their Marvel flavoured box office sales go, so it'll be ages till I maybe get around to watching the film itself.

P-89 Scorpion:
"But now is the age of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where heroes and their stories arriving onscreen looking like a live-action splash-page is now the expected norm."

Can we stop with this fallacy!

Thor in the comics has the helmet nearly all the time while in the Avengers and Dark world no helmet. Thor from the films could be an extra from any sword and sandal epic in look (what annoys me is they made the helmet then only used it for one scene).

Hawkeye, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver all look nothing like there comic counterparts hardly a live action version of a splash-page.

All the MCU gives us is CGI when it comes to real costumes there no different from Fox, Sony or WB in being afraid.

So far only 3 comic book super heroes get proper real costumes Superman, Spiderman and Captain America.

To be fair, those scenes with Quick Silver and Scarlet Witch are (imho) from the second act. They may have their costumes by the end of the film... or within a few films. We don't know yet.

That being said, you are right. The characters aren't as comic book looking as people say they are.

P-89 Scorpion:
"But now is the age of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where heroes and their stories arriving onscreen looking like a live-action splash-page is now the expected norm."

Can we stop with this fallacy!

Thor in the comics has the helmet nearly all the time while in the Avengers and Dark world no helmet. Thor from the films could be an extra from any sword and sandal epic in look (what annoys me is they made the helmet then only used it for one scene).

Hawkeye, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver all look nothing like there comic counterparts hardly a live action version of a splash-page.

All the MCU gives us is CGI when it comes to real costumes there no different from Fox, Sony or WB in being afraid.

So far only 3 comic book super heroes get proper real costumes Superman, Spiderman and Captain America.

Wait, what about Iron man? Because when I learned that many of the scenes were not CGI, I was pretty impressed.

Sure, they make some changes here and there (there is even a cut scene in Thor about him being mocked for the helmet), but considering most costumes are hardly possible in real life, I think they make a pretty good job. Even in cases where they changed the costumes, their personalities and core appeal were pretty much unaltered (except for the recent Guardians movie, but I like that version better than the comics anyway).

Or, just to drive the point home, a quote from one of the "competition": What did you expect, yellow spandex?

hermes200:
Or, just to drive the point home, a quote from one of the "competition": What did you expect, yellow spandex?

To quote from some source material (Scott Summers): "Sorry, Logan. Superheroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous". Is anyone happy with Fox's awful X-Men designs so far?

Darth Rosenberg:

Sony and Fox can go die in a ditch somewhere as far as me and their Marvel flavoured box office sales go, so it'll be ages till I maybe get around to watching the film itself.

Just think how better it would be if Sony and Fox never bought the film rights. Marvel would have gone bankrupt again and disappeared into history with only the Blade films to show for it.

Disney only buys things once they have shown they can be profitable it was the original X-men and Spiderman trilogy's that showed it yet now it's we wish they never happened by 'censored'.

Darth Rosenberg:

hermes200:
Or, just to drive the point home, a quote from one of the "competition": What did you expect, yellow spandex?

To quote from some source material (Scott Summers): "Sorry, Logan. Superheroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous". Is anyone happy with Fox's awful X-Men designs so far?

Everybody pretty much thought they were awesome and a fair compromise, and the aforementioned 'yellow spandex' line was loved and quoted as one of the best jokes from the movie.

Windknight:

Darth Rosenberg:

hermes200:
Or, just to drive the point home, a quote from one of the "competition": What did you expect, yellow spandex?

To quote from some source material (Scott Summers): "Sorry, Logan. Superheroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous". Is anyone happy with Fox's awful X-Men designs so far?

Everybody pretty much thought they were awesome and a fair compromise, and the aforementioned 'yellow spandex' line was loved and quoted as one of the best jokes from the movie.

Really? Because I remember when that first xman film came out, while people thought it was good many many people did not like black outfits.

I do wonder why its not called "Ultimate Fantastic Four" instead of "Fantastic Four". It is funny that they made this movie based on a comic that soon wont exist now they are destroying the Ultimate universe. I think the gritty dark can work for some movies, but it doesnt work for all. You can tell darker stories without the direction being dark, look at Cap America 2 for that. Personally it works for Batman as he is all about the shadows.

I guess we do need to wait for a better trailer as there could be more lighter content and some fun banter. Though this movie might suck as a FF movie. But given the chance it might be a good movie on its own account - just like the Evil Dead remake.

I'm not sold on it. It could be an okay movie, but it doesn't look like a good Fantastic Four film.

For that, we have Disney's "The Incredibles".

Windknight:

Darth Rosenberg:

hermes200:
Or, just to drive the point home, a quote from one of the "competition": What did you expect, yellow spandex?

To quote from some source material (Scott Summers): "Sorry, Logan. Superheroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous". Is anyone happy with Fox's awful X-Men designs so far?

Everybody pretty much thought they were awesome and a fair compromise, and the aforementioned 'yellow spandex' line was loved and quoted as one of the best jokes from the movie.

I agree. Can't we just focus if the FILM is any good, and if it isn't, then gripe about the costumes? Because otherwise, those complaints Rosenburg made are...well, nitpicks. I want these movies to good. Not because I have a strong connection to the source material, but because A. I have some idea as to how "the first family of comics" is supposed to be, (I want to give Trank a chance here, but in the deeper parts of my mind, I'm hoping this bombs; so Marvel can take it back, and make a proper movie. If I may quote a movie that many people like: "Why so serious?") and B. I'd like to enjoy myself if I go to see this. I'm all for realism, but at some point, I want them to remember just how silly the premise IS, and not to take itself so seriously. (It's part of the reason I'm glad Micheal B. Jordan is in this, he might deliver some much needed levity to it.) If it's like Chronicle, then I'm fine with that, but remember what the movie was about.

Ashley Blalock:
Ultimate Fantastic Four also seems to get thrown around a bit with the trailer. Well that's just a brilliant idea take a comic book that most people haven't read and base things around that

And just what percentage of the people who watched Guardians of the Galaxy do you think had read a Guardians comic before they saw the movie? Hell, what percentage of people who watched Dark Knight had read a Batman comic?

Comic book readers are a very small minority of the population these days. I don't think it's worth caring that much about divisions between books that are more or less popular when probably 80%+ of the audience won't have read even the most popular comic book. 25,000 people bought a physical copy of a Fantastic 4 comic last month. Even if we assume that ten times that many regular readers and they just share copies and none of them read Ultimate Fantastic Four, and all of them are going to go see this movie, if they're a majority of the audience the movie is a flop no matter what they think.

If you're relying an audience who mostly haven't read any version of the material, you may as well go with the version you think will work best, even if it's not the most popular version.

I'll just leave these here...
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(that one they did for me)
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I'll give you Hawkeye, I think MovieBob himself put it best by saying "he looks oddly underdressed compared to everyone else."

Adi Granov is the artist that does the concepts for a lot of the movie costumes, and he also does covers for some of Marvel's comcics which is why there are some very striking similarities.

This is his Scarlet Witch....

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And you can see his Quicksilver here
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I very much disagree with this article. Fantastic Four has always been timelocked in the much more scientifically optimistic and speculatively simple sixties. We live in an age where we're more impacted by the scope of all we don't know and how truly much there is to learn AND by how easily we can go astray by assuming that we 'already know enough.' All that in mind, the FF almost HAS to be rebooted for the era (not the least of which the fact that its primary characters have never emotionally developed past the sixties. Even their 60s-era colloquialisms have been taunted in meta-jokes throughout even the comics). Furthermore, to assume that it's not possible for these characters to arc over the course of the movie to something more recognizable (or to assume that ALL of the information about this movie can be gleaned from an incredibly vague teaser) seems a bit willfully ignorant.

To be clear, MASSIVE respect for Moviebob and his opinions, and I myself would certainly like to see FF revert back to Marvel, but at the same time, this seems to be a fresh take for a series that, in all honesty, I've never truly understood outside of Galactus.

coheedswicked:

Wait, who's that guy who looks like just some dude? The one who would look like he's trying to photobomb if it wasn't for the stuff orbiting around his head.

I wish a movie would be made using Warren Ellis' "Planetary" story. Not spoiling anything but its a great deconstruction on comic heros in general and specifically at the fantasic 4 character archetypes.

piscian:
Whatever I don't care, and as a critic, as much as you can, its your job to view each film in a vacuum.

That is pretty much the opposite of the truth, if you see every piece of media in a context-vacuum you cannot even begin to critisize it.
How would you even start with a critic were you are not in any way allowed to draw parralels to other works?

Monoclebear:

piscian:
Whatever I don't care, and as a critic, as much as you can, its your job to view each film in a vacuum.

That is pretty much the opposite of the truth, if you see every piece of media in a context-vacuum you cannot even begin to critisize it.
How would you even start with a critic were you are not in any way allowed to draw parralels to other works?

Based on its own merits. Biased criticism is inescapable, but the point is to try.

WhiteTigerShiro:

coheedswicked:

Wait, who's that guy who looks like just some dude? The one who would look like he's trying to photobomb if it wasn't for the stuff orbiting around his head.

That's Amadeus Cho

DanielG:

WhiteTigerShiro:

coheedswicked:

Wait, who's that guy who looks like just some dude? The one who would look like he's trying to photobomb if it wasn't for the stuff orbiting around his head.

That's Amadeus Cho

Damn you beat me to it. :-P
He's the 7th smartest person in the world ( or 8th depending who you ask). He can basically... see math.

I have already come to accept that Hollywood cant do Doom. I think they are scared off by the very concept of magic, thinking that it will scare and confuse people. At least when it isn't contained in a move solely about magic (e.g. Harry Potter). Hollywood thinks if we see magic and science in the same movie, that our little monkey brains wont be able to make sense of it, and we will end up hating the movie.

cthulhuspawn82:
I have already come to accept that Hollywood cant do Doom. I think they are scared off by the very concept of magic, thinking that it will scare and confuse people. At least when it isn't contained in a move solely about magic (e.g. Harry Potter). Hollywood thinks if we see magic and science in the same movie, that our little monkey brains wont be able to make sense of it, and we will end up hating the movie.

It's sad how true this is. But, really, I've been seeing magic and science mixed together in great works for a long time. Hell, I write tons of stuff that mixes the two. It leads to all sorts of interesting dilemmas.

But Hollywood has always lagged behind on everything, so it's no surprise they haven't picked up on this possibility.

Windknight:
Everybody pretty much thought they were awesome and a fair compromise, and the aforementioned 'yellow spandex' line was loved and quoted as one of the best jokes from the movie.

I don't know anyone who thought they were "awesome". Who the hell could, who's ever looked at a few selections of X-Men era designs?

...but - and it's a big but: timeframes are everything, i.e. the comicbook film landscape was a very different thing in the early 2000's than it is now. Back then, Singer's dour, drab colour palette seemed refreshingly moody, which suited the [slightly more] mature tone.

Now? For some years, that spandex line has just smacked of a snarky insecurity about the source material and the timid way Fox approached the X-Men license. Pre- and post-MCU makes a big difference, and I don't believe we'd have Singer's drab aesthetic had Marvel Studios decided to adapt X-Men now.

So, grudgingly... I'll concede my criticism's fairly irrelevant, given how comicbook film's have evolved (arf.. ) in pop-culture over the last fifteen years. I still can't stand Fox's X-Men films, though.

ArcaneGamer:
Can't we just focus if the FILM is any good, and if it isn't, then gripe about the costumes? Because otherwise, those complaints Rosenburg made are...well, nitpicks.

My comments were about the MCU films in particular, btw (in response to that guy's criticism of Bob's observations), I wasn't picking at Fant-4-stic's designs. I mean, I could... but I didn't in that first post (what I did say, however, is that the Fantastic Four deserve a proper Silver Age treatment).

I do think the overall aesthetic can be very important, though. I look at the kinds of designs the X-Men films have had, and mostly I just see how much the studio wanted to distance themselves from anything overly--- well, comic book-y. Having the X-Men in so much black leather feels like they're ashamed of the source material. It looked like First Class was nudging towards a more colourful vibe, but then the clusterfuck of plotholes and contrivances that is Days Of Future Past happened (with its even more grim, and even more gritty future), and so who knows what Fox actually want, visually, from the franchise.

Hasn't Bob been harping on this movie for months already? His analysis, to me, reads the same as what he thought of the behind-the-scenes shenanigans of Amazing Spider-Man: like a slow-motion car wreck that you can't look away from.

coheedswicked:

DanielG:

WhiteTigerShiro:
Wait, who's that guy who looks like just some dude? The one who would look like he's trying to photobomb if it wasn't for the stuff orbiting around his head.

That's Amadeus Cho

Damn you beat me to it. :-P
He's the 7th smartest person in the world ( or 8th depending who you ask). He can basically... see math.

I last heard he's 8th, and Hank Pam (that's him in his Wasp outfit) is 7th, and Cho is OK with that.
I wonder if there's room in the MCU for Hercules. If nothing else, there's the potential to be funny there.
What's weird is that U.S.Agent in that picture has Cap's shield, instead of his own. This was from the era when Bucky was Cap, too.

Falterfire:
If you're relying an audience who mostly haven't read any version of the material, you may as well go with the version you think will work best, even if it's not the most popular version.

Stories have fans because something about them connects with those audience members in some way. A good adaptation of a work will find that connective element and build with it. This tends to be easier with more popular material because that element either has broad appeal or a good expression in the original work.

Choosing the less popular form for one's adaptation is gutsy, to say the least. Here's hoping it works out!

Trishbot:
I'm not sold on it. It could be an okay movie, but it doesn't look like a good Fantastic Four film.

For that, we have Disney's "The Incredibles".

The Incredibles is great because it also showed that "hey you know this actually could work if it's about a family! " instead we apparently get more angst you teen sparkly vampire wannabes. Yay?

coheedswicked:

This is his Scarlet Witch....

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Phwoah, Adi Granov's iteration of Wanda is one of the best I've seen since Adam Hughes:

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OT: Well that teaser sure was fucking dreary and lifeless. And I swear that end shot looks like it was from the Halo 3 cinematic; just with the FF instead of Master Chief.

To break Respectable Critic Decorum and stoop to a food metaphor; if you take away the cheese, the crust and the sauce, then serve the remaining pepperoni atop a bowl of ramen... can you really still call it "pizza?"

Culinary school interns like to call it "deconstruction" mostly because they don't understand what that word means.

Lord help me. Chef Life.

Darth Rosenberg:

Sony and Fox can go die in a ditch somewhere as far as me and their Marvel flavoured box office sales go, so it'll be ages till I maybe get around to watching the film itself.

that's a bit harsh.
I always hope a movie will be good, and if it is who cares who made it.
X-men is quite good, and isn't really bothering Marvel with character licenses at the time.
So good job FOX.

But if this bombs, FOX should consider that this IP is a dead end.
Like Sony is with Spiderman.(they don't release the license completely, but are open to marvel)

But i fear FOX just will shelf out cheap movie's just to keep the IP.
I do think F4 is holding a lot of characters hostage(villains mostly)this way.

But the trailer did look promising, but ok that's what they are suppose to do.
So if it's good, Yeay. If it sucks, just give it a rest FOX.

The question of adaptation fidelity had already been answered with shit like Dukes of Hazzard. I remember one guy on a forum said he laughed the whole way through and then at the end said "Ok, that's not the Dukes of Hazzard."

Comic book adaptions seem to be in serious jeopardy here because there are still people in the world who think super heroes are gay or something. In the 90's there was a rumored script for Spider-Man where the main character became a monstrous half man-half spider horror movie creature.

With changes like that, I have to ask, if they didn't want to make a movie about the character, why did they bother to get the rights?

Yeah, yeah, branding. Well, that's a recipe for a bite on the ass.

If I asked if you want to buy a nice piece of chocolate and you agree (because you don't know me very well) but if when I pop it into your mouth it turns out to not be chocolate but a piece of breakfast sausage, you are going to spit it out. Now, it may be a very nice piece of sausage, but you will spit it out anyway because it is not what you were expecting. It is not what I told you it was. The way I sold it to you ruined the experience. This kind of shit is happening all over Hollywood, like J.J. Abrams's "Mystery Box" concept where he sells you a movie he doesn't actually have.

This will lead to viewer dissatisfaction and reduced theater attendance, the problem they are doing these things to try and solve. This can't last. But then, it will only really hurt theatrical movies which are on their way out, anyway. Why go to a theater and drop a small fortune on tickets and snacks when you've already dropped a small fortune on a home theater system and have a fridge full of beer? Theatrical releases will dwindle in importance financially until the rest of the industry follows suit and then we'll still have this same adaptation problem on TV and Netflix.

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