Kickstarted to Death

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Kickstarted to Death

Death By a Thousand Debits

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Yeah, that's the trouble with not having things like detailed designed documents, well-spaced, thought-out goals and just general good thorough planning.

1. Proper
2. Planning and
3. Preparation
4. Prevents
5. Piss
6. Poor
7. Performance.

Mmm, rabbi bacon. Erin's face in the first panel tells me she knew ahead of time that the project was going to go tits-up. What an evil bitch.

Barbas:
Yeah, that's the trouble with not having things like detailed designed documents, well-spaced, thought-out goals and just general good thorough planning.

1. Proper
2. Planning and
3. Preparation
4. Prevents
5. Piss
6. Poor
7. Performance.

Sufferin' succotash, possibly a p-p-perfect pmnemonic!

This pretty much highlights my biggest issue with kickstarter in general. Say what you will about project managers from a publisher, but they are something of a necessity. When a creator is only beholden to their fans, deadlines are missed, projects go over budget... and it has happened time and time again.

A lot of these teams getting money do not seem to be lead by a person who knows what they are doing, and they really need that.

Barbas:
Yeah, that's the trouble with not having things like detailed designed documents, well-spaced, thought-out goals and just general good thorough planning.

1. Proper
2. Planning and
3. Preparation
4. Prevents
5. Piss
6. Poor
7. Performance.

Oh I like that one, I'm going to appropriate it for personal usage (Fair Use!!!) XD

OT: Well this is timely, and interesting material. Also now I want unicorn burgers... I don't care if it isn't a thing that exists. I demand unicorn burgers be a thing and I won't have it any other way, Burger King said I could have it my way.

I like the comic but it really fails to properly place the blame on the company swearing they can make a burger worth $1,000 if you give them that instead of the $5 they set as their original goal. Extreme stretch goals are the culprit.

Teoes:
(Snip).

Imperioratorex Caprae:
(Snip).

Thanks, tovarishchi, but I stole it from the army who, it has to be said, are much funnier than me.

OT: At least we have Pillars Of Eternity. It is nice when a plan comes together; it tends to bring us all closer as a result. I hope Star Citizen managed to pull of what is increasingly sounding like a miracle, because I don't look forward to years of bitter recriminations, legal action and resentment.

Hey Grey, would you say Star Citizen suffers from this? image

Reminds me of that guy who made a potato salad and crowdfunded it, and then he got so much money he decided to throw a huge party. Imagine if he'd only made a potato salad with it and kept the money. Imagine the outcry at him doing exactly what he said he'd do.

I now demand that all of my food feature Rabbi Bacon

The burger needs wings and be able to float in space, you know, to better convey what "bloat" project is of mention here. Oh yes, I know that Star Citizen is a complete flake of a game by doing this and that on top of that and this. They've extended their game's projected release by years thanks to just throwing more money to make "a better game". Derick Smart my be a complete tool with the way he approaches things, but he does have some valid points on the way Star Citizen is being handled as a consumer product.

This is brilliant, exactly how I feel about how Kickstarter is being used currently. If something has a cult following or is backed by some internet celebrity people will overfund it to hell and back for absolutely no good reason, while at the same time thousands of projects don't even meet the most modest goals.

Crowdfunding has become a mirror of how investor funding worked. Entirely too much money thrown at things that are expected to do well anyways, while no money at all is "risked" to fund innovative ideas that might fail.

Kickstarter: "Ohhh look, the Oatmeal guy is doing the illustrations for a card game, so clearly this game needs 6000 times more money than it asked for, while no other card game can even raise it's basic goal! Fuck anyone who doesn't have illustrations by someone I've heard of before!"

Maybe a celebrity should start a Kickstarter to raise money to spend on kickstarters that actually deserve it.

crimson5pheonix:
Hey Grey, would you say Star Citizen suffers from this? image

Yea, I was gonna say its almost like they knew about this ahead of time.

Yeah, I've always figured that this was kind of obvious. You fly too close to the sun and you crash. Its why I never spent money on any kickstarters that were being severely overfunded, Star Citizen being the most blatant example. If I pay a few bucks more for it at release if its any good than so be it, but I don't wait another year or two for the game I purchased a copy of to become available only to end up disappointing me.

Don't worry guys, I have no doubt that you'll never be in danger of having too much kickstarter money to know what to do with!

Way too many devs go out there and think that because they just graduated, they're entitled to a massive salary before they've made anything.
This might be a poor example, but ARK: Survival Evolved is spitting out content at a dizzying rate while using early access as a balancing/beta test. They are delivering as much as they can, giving people something that can be felt and experienced.
Opposite that, you have a ton of kickstarters that offer nothing until it's done, apart from some visual assets.

ARK suffers from a host of issues by the way, I'm not singing its praises as a perfect game, but it has given me over 500 hours of entertainment so far and at the rate they introduce new things, I still have tons to do.

MarsAtlas:
Yeah, I've always figured that this was kind of obvious. You fly too close to the sun and you crash. Its why I never spent money on any kickstarters that were being severely overfunded, Star Citizen being the most blatant example. If I pay a few bucks more for it at release if its any good than so be it, but I don't wait another year or two for the game I purchased a copy of to become available only to end up disappointing me.

I've found that the secret to not being disappointed by crowd funding is to not give a shit. I've now backed... around 10? projects so far, and almost all of those are still in development. But what I don't do is follow every last dev log or whatever that the project puts out, because game development takes a while, and I would get real impatient real fast. Instead I just check in every 4 or 5 months to see how things are going, and eventually, something will come of it. Or not.

The thing is, I really don't care too much about the result for most of these, because I'm usually not funding that specific project so much as an idea. In Star Citizen's case, I funded because at the time there was a dearth of space sims, and I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to help show the industry that the genre was still one with a demand. And that happened. Since the overwhelming success of the SC crowd funding campaign, we've gotten more space games available and many more in the pipeline. At this point, even if Star Citizen were to fail completely, I'd still feel justified in the money I spent(though to be fair, I didn't spend much; some of the more insane contributors might feel otherwise). Hell, I already feel I got my money's worth just in the sheer entertainment factor of getting to see Derek Smart go on another ridiculous rant. I didn't realize how much I missed his trolling.

There're only 3 projects I funded that I actually care about the end project for, all of which I feel fairly confident in. The rest are either like the Star Citizen situation where I was really funding my vote in a neglected genre, or a project that I thought looked kind of neat and was willing to plunk down $10 on. Hell, I've spent more money on games that have sit untouched on my Steam backlog.

No kidding. It's why I'm worried about Star Citizen and Might No. 9 not being all they were cracked up to be, but at the same time I'm feeling pretty confident about The Mandate and XO.

And that's how Benedict "Kazuhira" Miller got into the fast food business!

erttheking:
No kidding. It's why I'm worried about Star Citizen and Might No. 9 not being all they were cracked up to be, but at the same time I'm feeling pretty confident about The Mandate and XO.

lol... XO was an impulse backing for me. I know almost nothing about the project other than someone on another site recommended it, and I thought it looked kind of neat. I look forward to seeing what the hell I actually put money toward.

Teoes:
Mmm, rabbi bacon. Erin's face in the first panel tells me she knew ahead of time that the project was going to go tits-up.

Yeah, well, she's Erin. Erin being evil is pretty much the status quo.

Is... that why I still don't have my DVD and CD soundtrack from the three-part, now two-part, documentary series that was release free on YouTube over a year ago? Well, fuck! All I got to show for it is my name mentioned in the final credits, only the format fucked up royally on just my name alone... No wonder it was the last [real] project I backed on Kickstarter... :p

Other than that, at least the other two kickstarters I backed succeeded fully... One ended with one band getting their tour in order (with some complementary music from said band sent to all the designated backers) and the one before that ended with all designated backers (like myself) owning both the main documentary and the extended main interviews featured in said documentary on Blu-Ray (and that's not including the pre-screening or the "sequel" documentary) even when that particular kickstarter received far more than what it actually needed...

As long as its edible in the end, I'll own up to the fact I overpaid.

I've said before that there's a reason publishers adopted practices like project management and time/budget constraints. It may seem infuriating, but without them we all too often get what you see here- people trying to build the third floor of a mansion before the foundation is finished.

There are some problems that can't be solved just by throwing more money at them.

If you promise more for extra money, if you get the extra money it better be worth it. A smart... 'burger maker'... would just refuse the extra money and not fall into the greed trap. Like with Kickstarter, no one is forcing developers to put any kind of stretch goals down let alone continue to add more and more outrageous ones, that's a failing of greed.

Ukomba:
If you promise more for extra money, if you get the extra money it better be worth it. A smart... 'burger maker'... would just refuse the extra money and not fall into the greed trap. Like with Kickstarter, no one is forcing developers to put any kind of stretch goals down let alone continue to add more and more outrageous ones, that's a failing of greed.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I can agree in most cases. Ideally, a Kickstarter for a project that intends to be sold to a mass market in the end will want to obtain exactly enough money to make the game and no more. The reason for this is that there is a diminished value in Kickstarter money that doesn't go toward development versus income from sales. I think that most well run KS campaigns only get about 50% of the pledged money as actual development money, with the rest being split between Kickstarter itself and reward fulfillment. Obviously high end pledges are worth a higher value to the developer, but typically the majority of pledges are at the minimum level to get the final product as a reward. Given that that tier is usually less than what the game is supposed to sell for after release, this means that increased pledges are actually decreased profits in the long run.

The main reasons for trying for higher pledge rates that I can see are either increased visibility (basically gambling that this will lead to higher sales later) or because the minimum goal isn't the game the developer wants to make, but rather the one they can live with limiting themselves to if no better option is available.

I have to somewhat agree with the point being made in this article: I flat out can't understand why people get so worked up about every penny going into the project. You're backing the project, but you don't HAVE to back it and they've clearly laid out what they intend to provide for the money given, however much that might be.

They ask for money for a specific project with specific goals. If they get more than that target then there is pretty much zero reason to frantically jump about looking for ways to make it "worth" that amount of money. Its far, far better to properly cost precisely what you want, add a buffer, and then ask for that amount. Not asking for a lesser amount and then saying "but if we get this much we'll make it bigger and better". Its a poor way to manage a business.

However I feel Kickstarter creators have themselves largely to blame for this thanks to the massive fad for "stretch goals". They're not so bad when its a fairly modest addition (extra skins or a few extra levels or whatever) or perhaps even when its a bit of an elaboration on a concept (like making a campaign more open-ended rather than linear and scripted), those things can realistically be added with only a small additional investment with less chance of things going wrong and delays; but when you're talking about adding entire new mechanics and systems...that's when it starts to become concerning. Because that's not an addition, its a total redesign.

Caramel Frappe:

OT: If Erin gave me a thousand dollars, i'd just put a fake horn on a horse, all while putting a burger costume around the horse as well. She would be either so disappointed and kill me, or so absorbed she'll never abandon the poor thing.

Either way, odds are strong you'll be lit on fire.

Aetrion:
This is brilliant, exactly how I feel about how Kickstarter is being used currently. If something has a cult following or is backed by some internet celebrity people will overfund it to hell and back for absolutely no good reason, while at the same time thousands of projects don't even meet the most modest goals.

Crowdfunding has become a mirror of how investor funding worked. Entirely too much money thrown at things that are expected to do well anyways, while no money at all is "risked" to fund innovative ideas that might fail.

Kickstarter: "Ohhh look, the Oatmeal guy is doing the illustrations for a card game, so clearly this game needs 6000 times more money than it asked for, while no other card game can even raise it's basic goal! Fuck anyone who doesn't have illustrations by someone I've heard of before!"

Maybe a celebrity should start a Kickstarter to raise money to spend on kickstarters that actually deserve it.

Maybe Tim Schafer can do it. Let's get a Kickstarter for him!

OT: This is the trouble that occurs when "Shut up and take my money!" is the core philosophy of a website. The leads of each project should say, at some point, "No more, thank you. I have all I need to complete this in the schedule and budget I planned out."

crimson5pheonix:
Hey Grey, would you say Star Citizen suffers from this?

I'd say this is a dramatic understatement.

Why have project managers and clear and concise design documents when you can just holler at your staff? Why do that when you can inhumanly pressure mere human beings in the vain hope that your game will be ALL THE THINGS to EVERYONE?

Roberts has been out of the loop for so long he hasn't even witnessed Molyneux's successive debacles.

Never over-promise, devs, and never over-sell. If the PR department tells you to do it, you tell them to kindly fuck off.

Lightknight:
I like the comic but it really fails to properly place the blame on the company swearing they can make a burger worth $1,000 if you give them that instead of the $5 they set as their original goal.

I suspect the creative choice of depicting the burgermeister as a child was intentional. There's no malice or schemed conning of investors. He simply doesn't know any better.

Kickstarter RISKS & CHALLENGES: I don't know what I don't know.

Scars Unseen:

Ukomba:
If you promise more for extra money, if you get the extra money it better be worth it. A smart... 'burger maker'... would just refuse the extra money and not fall into the greed trap. Like with Kickstarter, no one is forcing developers to put any kind of stretch goals down let alone continue to add more and more outrageous ones, that's a failing of greed.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I can agree in most cases. Ideally, a Kickstarter for a project that intends to be sold to a mass market in the end will want to obtain exactly enough money to make the game and no more. The reason for this is that there is a diminished value in Kickstarter money that doesn't go toward development versus income from sales. I think that most well run KS campaigns only get about 50% of the pledged money as actual development money, with the rest being split between Kickstarter itself and reward fulfillment. Obviously high end pledges are worth a higher value to the developer, but typically the majority of pledges are at the minimum level to get the final product as a reward. Given that that tier is usually less than what the game is supposed to sell for after release, this means that increased pledges are actually decreased profits in the long run.

The main reasons for trying for higher pledge rates that I can see are either increased visibility (basically gambling that this will lead to higher sales later) or because the minimum goal isn't the game the developer wants to make, but rather the one they can live with limiting themselves to if no better option is available.

But that's not what this is about. This isn't someone asking for 10,000k to get the basics of a game down and stretch goals for things the game would need anyways. This is suddenly realizing how much money you could have and promising the moon in order to get it.

Bloodstained is a good example of this. You look at the original stretch goals and they are all really reasonable. Cheat codes, new difficulty levels, music, voice acting, some simple modes, ext.

Then they hit all those and suddenly realize how much money they could have. The next set are

IGA's biggest castle ever, a totally separate Roguelike dungeon, Separate Prequel game, miti-platform release, online multiplayer, Ability to play as bosses.

These are massive undertakings now, several of them are basically their own separate games with entirely different mechanics like Roguelike or Boss Revenge. They're exciting and certainly got me to pony up but the complexity and challenge of making the game is now a lot higher. People's expectations are going to be equally as high now that they are so invested.

There came an Echo (shameless link http://store.steampowered.com/app/319740)is a game I didn't even back because I'm not a massive fan of buying stuff sight unseen, but I did follow it and see it as a great example of a tightly focused development that knew what it wanted to be from the start. Even then, they stated June 2014 as a middle of the road estimate and it came out nearly 8 months later, I would guess that many kickstarters feel the need to promise a release date (or even features) they are 90% certain they can't hit, to entice more backers. So I propose gamergate 2.0, ethics in kickstarter promises.

Devin Barker:
I now demand that all of my food feature Rabbi Bacon.

Teoes:
Mmm, rabbi bacon. Erin's face in the first panel tells me she knew ahead of time that the project was going to go tits-up. What an evil bitch.

Rabbi Bacon is indeed rare and expensive. Never had any myself, but science labs around the world have tried to artificially create it in labs, such as this specimen.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-01-21/1264058200272.jpg

Sadly we can so far only find undiscovered stores of Rabbi Bacon right now. Ever since the end of the Piggy Wars when the Rabbis were forced to sign a treaty stating that they would end the production of Rabbi Bacon we've just been subsisting on what was made at the time.

Imp Emissary:

Devin Barker:
I now demand that all of my food feature Rabbi Bacon.

Teoes:
Mmm, rabbi bacon. Erin's face in the first panel tells me she knew ahead of time that the project was going to go tits-up. What an evil bitch.

Rabbi Bacon is indeed rare and expensive. Never had any myself, but science labs around the world have tried to artificially create it in labs, such as this specimen.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-01-21/1264058200272.jpg

Sadly we can so far only find undiscovered stores of Rabbi Bacon right now. Ever since the end of the Piggy Wars when the Rabbis were forced to sign a treaty stating that they would end the production of Rabbi Bacon we've just been subsisting on what was made at the time.

So what you saying is im gonna need to kidnap me some Rabbis and start smashing toes with a ball pein until I gets me my bacon?

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