Warcraft Movie Changes Lore To What It Should Have Been Pages 1 2 NEXT | |
Warcraft Movie Changes Lore To What It Should Have Been Blizzard's VP of Story and Franchise Development Chris Metzen said some "cowardly" decisions were made in the original lore for the game, and the movie will rectify those. | |
what I got out of that was that Chris Metzen is basically saying | |
Why is it that I'm suddenly reminded of George Lucas? | |
Well to be fare Wacraft 1 barely had anything special of a plot because the plot in the game itself is all done in pre-mission text :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8psPDcxz4HM&list=PLuxxR5oqFTu_GXuA49GUlEa2aHEi_VkXi I show the Orc campaign because appearently its the Canon Campaign. | |
What I said to ShakerSilver. | |
A lot of lore has been added retro-actively , I think that when they said they were basing it on the original warcraft they might have overstepped seeing as they've already fleshed it out in different manners. I do agree and see where the concern is coming from though, I don't get why WoW is becoming a Movie instead of a series if anything. Lore expansive properties have a tendency to make big mistakes when they go to the big screen. | |
I feel like we've seen this story told by Disney, James Cameron, and other CGI and Animation movies, several times over already. May as well have made a movie about this: http://us.media.blizzard.com/wow/media/comics/comic-2010-03-arkor-winner-large.jpg | |
So, basically... "The burying of WarCraft I and -II will continue, until you say you like Go'el!" Fuck off, Chris Metzen. Blizzard hasn't had a good story in its head since 2003 with The Frozen Throne, and this is doing nothing to convince me otherwise. | |
Yeah, I don't recall the orcs of the original Warcraft- or Warcraft II, for that matter- being all that much more than, well, orcs. It's only around Warcraft III that we really got the whole "misunderstood proud brave warrior race with long honorable traditions yatta yatta flambe" that pervades so many re-imaginings. I'm not saying it's going to be a good or a bad movie based on the director's particular interpretation, just that I wouldn't spring to judgement based on such a call. | |
Come on man Thrall is a cool character. This is a lore filled with cool characters and Thrall is just one of many. Why is everyone constantly making Thrall out to be the face of the Wacraft franchise? And yes I know Metzen voices Thrall. But he also voices many characters. Varian Wrynn, Ragnaros, Nefarian. Heck I be surprised if a sequal movie comes out with Thrall and he is not voiced by Chris Metzen. | |
Yeah, thanks, Carry Condescension, I played the game and read the lore that was later added, so I know how the narrative looked like. What's your bloody point? Because it was as far removed from War & Peace as you can imagine it's alright to fuck it over? Screw that noise. The simple nature of the conflict portrayed in the first two games was the quintessential basis for the entire dynamic within and between the two factions right up until the point Blizzard decided that keeping the faction-fanboys equally happy was more important than a good story. And make no mistake, that demographic-pandering is the exact reason why the "primitive" plot of the game (because letting some C-list actors stare woefully in the distance and regurgitate every "For a brighter future"-line ever written adds so much depth, right?) is now being whitewashed to the point that it became modern Pocahontas without the romance. Speaking of which, I find it amazing how there was no end to the shit Avatar got for basically being Pocahontas with Aliens, but if Blizzard pulls that trick with reverse roles (Native Americans moving to Spain), cheap CGI and cinematography ripped straight from the 2001 LotR-movies, it's alright because...reasons.
Was. Since Cataclysm (which ironically was supposed to be the AddOn for his character to truly develop) he's a sad parody of himself.
Gee, I don't know. It might have something to do with Blizzard making him the literal face of the franchise, ever since WarCraft 3: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/WarcraftIII.jpg
Yeah, I know, like I told the other guy....okay, nothing against you personally, just using your statement as a jumping-off point since I see that so often lately:
Oh I can help you there. It's because it's absolutely in line with the business practices of Activision, I mean Blizzard who is an absolutely independant partner of Activision and in no way influenced by their business model of constantly producing short-lived cash cows and market the shit out of them in lieu of adding anything worthwhile to the product itself.
And see, that's the entire point: They weren't misunderstood. There was no subtle manipulation of the race until it was too. The whole point of the reveal in WarCraft 3 was that they KNEW who they were getting into bed with. They knew the cost, they knew the risk, they had the power to stop it and they still dove headlong into it. The orcs were more fleshed out and given more character beginning with WarCraft 3, yes, but the savage nature of their acts in the previous games was never questioned. And up until this movie it was never about finding a cheap excuse for their behaviour but whether they manage to free themselves from the stigma of their past. Which was also the reason that Garrosh, until he became insane/corrupted villain no. 25648, was less a universally hated but a strongly controversial character | |
I honestly cannot understand the hate this (yet to be seen, yet to be released) film is getting. I think it will be good, and hope it's going to be fantastic. But i'm not the type who gives two rat's shits if adaptations of works stay 100% true to the original format/s. Sooooo... it is bad that in a film they are giving a race of characters MORE character and MORE depth than the original work? I don't see how that is bad at all. Is this just a case of alliance fanboys/girls still getting pissy about the love horde get from blizzard? IF this was written as a flat out orcs are evil and invading because evil and the alliance are all for good and just and wholesome and will defend with their honour.. this would be one hell of a boring concept that has been done a billion times before. Jones is wanting to make a film full of grey areas, exploring both sides of a conflict and let both stories be told. Ambitious? Probably, but just flatout shit? Hardly. And why exactly is it wrong for Chris Metzen to wish the original orcs and humans game could have had a more detailed and nuanced story than it did? It was a game created, and then a story built around the mechanics to tie the levels together. SHIT HAS PROGRESSED SINCE THEN. If that story that is being defended were to be released today , it would be shit all over by the same negative nancies who shit all over everything and are constantly cynical, Also - the CG and mocap looks great. I am so over the constantly negative attitude of the internet at large lately. Everything is shit until proven otherwise... and then it's only marginally less shit... but still shit. disclaimer: Played all 3 warcraft rts games on release, as well as expansions. Played wow from beta until a month into cata. Play hearthstone. Not a blizzard fanboy and question a hell of a lot of their business models and decisions lately. HOWEVER: I'm seriously looking forward to this film. captcha: Oreo - describe this brand any word(s) . Diefuckerdie. | |
Get used to it. :( Now, let's be fair. I've played WC1-3, and there isn't any overt hints that the orcs were corrupted. However, the gateway was left open given the mentions of Kil'jaeden, and while it was WC3 that executed the concept, the idea long since predated it (see Lord of the Clans and its novelization). Having played WC1 and 2...well, 2 I find enjoyable, but let's be honest, story was practically non-existent in those games. Frankly, I'm fine with the orcs having depth to them. If it's a "retcon" to introduce new revelations to a storyline, then practically every media is guilty of this (e.g. Lord of the Rings would retcon The Hobbit through revealing that the Necromancer was Sauron, a tidbit that The Hobbit never even hinted it). Come WC3, there's good orcs (e.g. Thrall) and bad orcs (e.g. orcs that cling to the ways of the Old Horde - see Rend and Maim for instance). Orcs like Garrosh lie in-between (and no, he wasn't corrupted, that's a misconception that's long since lingered - look up how the sha actually work). And it's a moot point anyway since the movie takes place in an alternate timeline. It retcons WC1 as much as a superhero film adaptation "retcons" the original comic. | |
Warcraft 1's story was a mediocre paint-by-numbers even for its time. It would not fly today. | |
Did you read Naruto Shipuuden, by any chance? Because it's the same problem that the Uchiha clan had: this obsessive need with justifying the villains actions. From WarCraft I to at least Wrath of the Lich King, the orcs where a people who commited horrible atrocities. Were they influenced by the Burning Legion? Yes, but not in any secretive way. There was never some Faustian bargain where they didn't know what they were giving up; Mannoroth and the Burning Legion just offered them power, and with that power the orcs dove headlong into genocide. But, for some reason, Metzen feels that we must retcon away any possible wrongdoing on the Horde's part so that... I dunno, the people who think that In the Pale Moonlight is the worst episode of 'Trek ever will be able to play the game without their sensitive feelings being offended or something. We had the possibility for a truly epic redemption arc, an entire race trying to make amends for the atrocities they committed, willingly, but that's all being retconed away in favor of Orc-Moses-in-the-Bulrushes. | |
I didn't see a single mention of Thrall though. I mean, in the trailer I'm pretty sure you see him placed in the river, but Metzen didn't mention him at all in the article did he?
What? The orcs constantly bring up how they were responsible for the atrocities and trying to make amends for it. Their past and their attempts to rectify it are at the heart of their interactions with the humans and Varian, with any sign that they might be slipping back sending the humans running to the war drums, and any redemptive act dismissed as "but they've done much worse before". Thrall gets the Moses treatment because he's the one who leads the orcs from the lethargy and despair of the knowledge of their past crimes into making amends. And even he didn't do it alone, what with Doomhammer freeing them from Guldan's enslavement to begin with. Shit, look back to Wrath with Saurfang and Garrosh where Saurfang is berating Hellscream for making the same mistakes his father did when he led them down the path of corruption. "I'll kill you myself before I let you take us down that road again." He doesn't eat pork for a reason yo. | |
I myself don't like the whole concept of "Orcs aren't so bad" that WoW has been pushing (and make no mistake, this is nothing new with the movie. WoW has been trying to promote the orcs as being noble and humans as being racist for as long as I remember). It makes no sense in the lore because I don't care how many orphanages Thrall and Cairne have built, anyone who is in an alliance with Sylvanus is a bad guy, nothing else to say. All that said, if they made a movie with orcs as the antagonists, there would be a TON more backlash that this "retcon" will bring. Horde roleplayers have been insisting that they are heroes since the game came out, and making them villains would basically be invalidating their entire experience of the game. | |
Metzen forgot how the whole Eredar thing happened when writing Burning Crusade, his opinion on "what Warcraft 1 should have been" is pretty much worthless. | |
It may not be what he directly said, but the changes to the story still serves that end goal because they are changing Thralls origin from what has been stated previously to the Moses analogy, there are ways to update the first game which don't require it to focus on Thralls parents, but mostly I think this because it's what he's been doing in the games for ages, the last expansion was just an excuse to have Thrall hang around with his parents, more than anything else. | |
Personally I like this modern portrayel of the Orcs because so many fantasy settings just makes the Orcs savage warmongering monsters. That barely talks about their own society (Tolkien Orcs) If you want just faceless warlike evil Orcs, Warhammer is that way: | |
Warcraft Orcs are kind of like Krogans, at the end of the day. They're quite violent and brutish and willingly embraced the demons' power and gladly were corrupted to get more strength and power to go after the Draenei and beyond in a rampage. Only Thrall and those born way after the wars on Draenor could believe the fairy tale of poor Orcs enslaved by demons - Grom makes it very clear to him. All this also means that WC3 had decent characters and development, that were kind of messed up with WOW, specially various expansions. Yet Metzen doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind. In WC3, war between factions is over and they unite against the big menace (that, from all appearances, should've wiped out most sentient life from Eastern Kingdoms...); in WOW, it's back to war to justify PVP; then it's unity in one expansion, renewed war in the next; the same way, first Orcs were mindless brutes, then misunderstood decent guys who were corrupted, then since Metzen still loves baddies, he has to turn Garrosh (who was a wimp, then just a guy trying to redeem his name and be a good warrior) into a cartoon villain of awful proportions...
Yeah, I was thinking of that when Metzen said "we made some really weird decisions with the lore over time, things I wish I could take back". Fuck, Sargeras was corrupted by evil bastards, not the other way around. Good Eredar corrupted by the always-Evil Sargeras, my ass :p | |
There is more than black and white. Then it was changed to to make every fraction more moral ambiguity. With WoW's burning crusade things were changed to "Magic made us do it, we are acually hippies" Not played the following expansions myself, but from what I understand the classic baddass warchief was still considered a cool thing, especially as antagonist. so they created civilwar in order to reintroduce the old relentless warmachine while maintaining the hippy orcs fraction that can't be retaconed out of the lore at this point (because of the player characters) bending the lore back and fore became rather difficult the more canon has been established in the same game.So they introduced timetravel/alternative timelines.Basicly hit the reset button and star all over instead of geting called out for ignoring your own canon. so I'm not surprised that the Author claims it "changes the lore to what is shoul have been" | |
Well if you played Warlords of Draenor you may know that certain clans were always Warlike before they were corrupted I mean explain the Warsong clan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRnabRRi1ik | |
I think that the problem is that the narrative is completely schizophrenic when it comes to the orcs. On the one had they are portrayed as an 'innocent' victim of demonic manipulation. In the other, they are a brutal warrior race, that was made worse with demonic influence. Orc nature being ambiguous is not necessarily a bad thing, but when the narrative itself keeps flip-flopping then we have problems. In any case, I think the orcs should have stayed evil. As I mentioned in another post, making the orc ambiguous can just invite narrative dissonance, and lessen/cheapen the impact of the story. Warcraft 1's story was not exactly complex, but it was a solid enough foundation to build on, and impactful because the bad guys win. And because it is a game, the player was implicated. I fear that trying to make the orcs 'good' but misunderstood will just make the story shallow, and boring. | |
You are only basing this on the character of Durotan. May I remind you that it was Orgrim Doomhammer who still waged war with the humans in second war and killed Anduin Lothar? And I am certainly sure that they might show certain Orcs willingly drink demon blood or heck always show them as Warlike. Because seriously if they were never warlike to begin with as you claim the movie will portray them then why all this clearly warrior race-like imagry. I mean I am pretty sure Orgrim earned the name Doomhammer sometime before the war with the humans. And judging from IMDB Grom Hellscream is confirmed to be in this movie whos clan is called the WARSONG CLAN!!! And during the World of Wacraft Vanilla days there are Orc Clans that are still warlike and hostile to human kingdoms I mean remember the Orcs you fight in Blackrock Moutain? The Blackrock clan was in servitude to the black Dragon Neferian. | |
Honestly, the story in recent blizzard games has been completely shit, pretty much anything after "Wrath of the Lich King" just started to get really really wonky and crazy. The entire plot of SC2 feels like "WE'RE THROWING ALL THIS SHIT OUT." Thumps book labeled 'da big book of cliches' onto table "FROM NOW ON IF IT AIN'T IN HERE ITS NOT GETTING IN." and the zerg were suddenly the good guys and all kinds of stupid shit started happening. | |
I love Ultimate Spider-man but I probably wouldn't throw that out as "The best", might piss a few people off. | |
Okay, so apparently telling Metzen to plow himself now constitutes "insulting other site members". I'd comment on how poorly thought out this approach is but then I remembered I'm on the escapist.
Then you haven't been paying attention. You simply don't rub your dick over an established and beloved work - even if it's your own - and then act all surprised when people call you out on that. Returning to the George Lucas-comparison: No one cares about your newfound love of modern CGI, so stop shoving it into our faces by re-editing the original Star Wars. And to that whole "What's so bad about creating a more nuanced, deep plot"-shtick: They don't. Again, don't see where people are getting this from. Because everyone's making a face as if they'd pose for a CK-commercial and spout pseudo-dramatic one-liners that would fit perfectly in yet another FF XIII-sequel and wrap that in the very same "Two cultures clash due to miscommunication"-plot that made everyone give Avatar a massive wedgie? Talking about something I've seen a billion times. You know what I've rarely seen for at least a decade? A simple, straight-forward action-movie that could carry itself on being an action-movie. Which, big surprise, the original WarCraft games until 3 would have been the perfect setting for. You want to write your philosophical character-study? Fine, then go and actually fucking write it.
If the year on your calendar starts with a 19, maybe. But in 2015? We had LotR in 2001-2003 and Avatar in 2009 and this footage fails to live up to either.
And where the hell is that the case? Shall we take a stroll through the movie-, gaming- and TV-landscape of the last 10-15 years? The Star Wars-prequels, the Harry Potter-movies, World War Z, Hunger Games, After Earth, The Last of Us, The Walking Dead (both TV and games), the Hobbit-trilogy, Bayformers, Watchdogs, GTA IV, Dishonored, etc., etc. Sure, many of those products we call out on their mediocrity, if not outright poor quality...NOW, with the gift of hindsight and the marketing-machines behind those products long since shut down, but might I remind you that each and every one of those products have been praised to the heavens and beyond right before they came out? And may I point out how chestbursting hillarious it is in this context, that you open your post with the tired and lazy argument of "This movie isn't even out, how can you criticise it?" and yet ONE SENTENCE LATER tell us that you think it will be good if not even amazing? | |
I'm not sure you read my post correctly.
I did not mention Durotan.
Okay. For any particular reason?
Maybe. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I think you might have quoted the wrong post. I never claimed that the orcs were never warlike. I was pointing out that the narrative on orc culture as presented in WoW was somewhat confused, seemingly wanting to portray the orcs in two different ways at the same time.
True. To what relevancy?
Again true. But why bring it up? I have to say, I am especially confused by your points. They appear to have nothing to do with what I was noting down. Did you quote the wrong post? | |
The part where you said this: "I think you might have quoted the wrong post. I never claimed that the orcs were never warlike. I was pointing out that the narrative on orc culture as presented in WoW was somewhat confused, seemingly wanting to portray the orcs in two different ways at the same time." Well I am trying to point out that its not really confusion, but it rather showcases how culturally diverse the Orc race in this universe are. Certain clans are warlike, some are shamanistic, some are Hunter-Gatherer culture wtih a sense of honor. And as this movie will showcase there are Orcs that willingly drank the demon blood there are those that want to conquer and desired power. And in the case of Durotan their are those think that this is the wrong path to take. Its up until Thrall's arrival that the Orcs are all united as one whole people and brought them back to a state of honor and freed themselves from Demonic Influances. | |
Wait, she's half human again? | |
There was foreshadowing that Garrosh would go too far all the way back in Wrath with the dialogue between him and Saurfang. He was trying to redeem himself and be a good leader all through Cataclysm and Mists, doing what he did to strengthen the Horde against the Alliance. He was cartoony to be sure, but then WarCraft has always been pretty cartoony. I was more pissed they glossed over all the good points he made when fighting Thrall in Warlords. ("You left me to pick up your pieces!")
Sargeras was corrupted by evil bastards even in the retconn. Instead of the Eredar, he's corrupted by the Nathrezim.
Thrall's been favored for a long time because of what he brings to the table in terms of drama and plot with the Horde and as the most recognizable shaman in the game (Who would even be second? Drek'thar? Nobundo?). While I did not like what Warlords did plot-wise (I hate time travel in general), I don't see this problem echoed in the movie. Durotan was always an outspoken critic of Blackhand and the old Horde, with him in the movie it allows them to follow the orcs from a more nuanced position than "they're monsters", and his eventual death provides a catalyst for Doomhammer's coup. People who haven't played the games will likely barely even know who Thrall is by the end of the movie. | |
Well maybe, but we'll have to wait until the movie is out to know how they handle this. However, I suspect that the narrative will be 'dumbed down'. I can't be sure, but I am not confident. | |
She thought she was half human originally, until her true heritage was revealed. Given how Paula Patton refused to comment on how Garona was born exactly at BlizzCon, it's fair to say that the film is in on the reveal. | |
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