Why You're Wrong if You're Mad at George R. R. Martin

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BloodRed Pixel:
I love GoT (any media) as the next best fan but heck

FUCK those whiny fans for their 1st world problems!!!!

They think great creative work grows on trees over night, they have no clue that it is the hardest to come up with good writing.

And the insight holds true forever: a delayed release is bad for now - a bad release is bad forever!

Anyway... - did I alreay say FUCK YOU, you stupid audience?

I'm losing faith that we're ever going to see a release, bad or otherwise. Books four and five were sprawling and meandering compared to books 1-3, and the extreme amount of time it's taken GRRM to figure out where to take the story since is uniquely worrisome.

As I said previously, he originally promised Dance to come out a year after Feast, instead of SIX years. Since Dance was comprised heavily of things cut from Feast, that implies that, in 2005-2006, GRRM was looking at enough material to realistically assume he'd finish Dance quickly. He was off by several years, and I've never quite experienced an author going through something like that without overtly taking time off or working on other projects in between.

So, where does this leave us? GRRM has gone from writing a trilogy to aiming for seven novels, possibly more. His estimates for release dates are so wrong that they might as well not exist. The TV series beginning in 2011 implies to an extent that the series books would outpace the seasons of the show, yet that's proven wildly inaccurate. Now, he doesn't even dare to speculate as to when Winds will be complete; we just get occasional updates of when it WON'T be ready by.

I loved the books, and I bought into the hype early of how great they were as an enduring work of literature. I've parroted the sentiment that GRRM is the American Tolkein. But the gut-wrenching suspicion I now hold is that A Song of Ice and Fire will go down in history for an entirely different reason: as possibly the most high-profile example of storytelling ambition stretching beyond capability of actually putting the story to words.

Politrukk:
The show has gone to hell and his books are taking too long, my well developed interest in the series has already dropped.

I will watch but more out of habit than of actual interest.

The show has gone to hell? Surely you're aware that viewership and reviews continue to be record-breaking for GoT, despite some controversy. What's your grievance with the show?

Yojoo:

Politrukk:
The show has gone to hell and his books are taking too long, my well developed interest in the series has already dropped.

I will watch but more out of habit than of actual interest.

The show has gone to hell? Surely you're aware that viewership and reviews continue to be record-breaking for GoT, despite some controversy. What's your grievance with the show?

They've pulled out a lot of legs from the story and the final 2 episodes for the last season whilst gaining high viewership have had a very negative backlash amongst the fans.

The book fans anger aside there are a lot of people who are dissapointed with the death of Stannis and his family as well as that supposedly of Jon Snow.

Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark though interesting from a book point of view to an extent are absolutely dull in the series, Daenerys has gained quite some popularity with women but a lot of men are dropping out due to the shows increased focus on her.

The return of Bran Stark or a focus on the Tarly home is not going to help the ratings either.

Edit:
whilst average viewership still was comparable with a 0.03(million) growth between season 4 and 5 the overall viewership has actually dropped, if it weren't for the series opener and finale the viewership would actually show a decline

Fractral:
That said, I'm not angry at GRRM for being a slow writer. Being a fan of large fantasy series means you have to be a little patient (Looking at you, Brandon Sanderson). At least he's actively writing the next book, unlike Patrick Bloody Rothfuss who took a long break to write a dull, badly written story from the point of view of a minor character in his series and then made condescending remarks towards the people who didn't like it.

Putting Brian Sanderson in the same phrase as GRRM is quite the insult as far as I'm concerned. Sanderson is a true writer who works on 5 projects at the same time and actually is capable of complying with his own estimates with decent accuracy while also offering quite high quality writting for the genre. I've only read the first Mistborn trilogy, the first book of the second and both books from the Stormlight Archive as well as Warbringer and it's been mostly a high quality product. The guy even keeps decently updated information of at what point he is in each of the multiple books he is working on at the same time. Here are his words for the end of the year as well as a rundown of what he?s achieved during it http://brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2015/ Dwarfs Martins little excuse fest, doesn't it?

Martin on the other hand has a single project and it?s been festering for years at a snails pace, books 4 and 5 were mostly rubbish and I think no Game of Thrones fan can deny that at the very least they are of lesser quality compared to the first 3 and seeing how overbloated it all seems to still be getting, I expect the 6th book to be a gigantic unfocused phone book sized brick. He clearly knows not how to temper his ideas and that is forcing everything completely out of whack. He is another bloody artsy type whose head gets full of hot air the moment he doesn't have restrictions, the first 3 books were very good, and no small part of it has to do with having real deadlines which forced to cut content that at the end allowed the story to be more streamlined and least meandering, thing that did not apply to book 4 and 5 and reason why it keeps adding more and more crap on top of it.

I already know to expect nothing from Martin, but I never thought he was that amazing ever, the series hasn't really enthralled me either, but I can certainly understand why the fans would be pissed. What does piss me off is how overvalued he is compared to his writing peers and how pampered and protected he is at this stage of the game where he should either get his ass into gear, or admit he has no fucking idea what he is doing and outsource the work to somebody that actually can stay focused for more than an hour and supervise him.

Also, Daenerys started as a great character, but at least in the books behaved at the end like a hormoned mess who just couldn't stop screwing stuff up (the novels feeling the need to keep her stranded on the other side of the sea to develop more worthless crap certainly did not help Daenerys growth as a character and monarch). Give me Vin any day as a female main character worth following.

Yojoo:
Look, I'm no author, but how the hell can somebody so consistently misinterpret the workload ahead of him by a span of YEARS? A Feast of Crows came out in 2005, with the promise of its companion novel Dance with Dragons being released THE NEXT YEAR. It took until 2011 for Dance to arrive. Now, here we are on year 5 of waiting for the sixth book, and who knows when we'll get a seventh or even if seven books is enough to finish the story.

Shocking newsflash: Not every last person in the world works reliably at the same pace for years. Variations due to motivation, nature of workload, contract conditions and personal circumstances may occur.

Razhem:
Snip

I'm pretty much only interested in Mistborn of Sanderson's works. The issue I have with Sanderson is that while he writes fast, he spreads himself to thin. I'm not interested in his YA stuff (read Steelheart, found it dull) and the Stormlight Archive moves at such a glacial pace that I can't bring myself to be excited for it when I know that half of each book is going to be fluff that serves only to expand his cosmere project. Well written fluff, granted, but I'll always prefer a more focused novel.
You're right though, he's not as bad as say, Robert Jordan or GRRM. I just wish he'd focus on one or two projects at a time. When he says that he doesn't expect to finish The Stormlight Archive until 2030 or whenever a part of me dies inside.

In looking over the back-and-forth through the comics here, I can only think of South Park's 3-parter that was making fun of the console wars, black friday madness, and of course: Game of Thrones.

"I don't see why everyone is so obsessed with this show...it's just a bunch of wieners flapping around on the screen!"

"Don't worry, kids, the pizza is DEFINITELY coming!"

:P

Luminous_Umbra:
Perhaps you shouldn't use Full Metal Alchemist as a comparison if you're trying to not make this seem like a bad thing, seeing how poor the divergent version was. Just saying.

I'm not going to lie, I really liked classic FMA series once it figured itself out, but I recognize not everyone shares that opinion. What would you use as an example instead?

I'm not mad at Martin, but I read up to the fourth book, saw the writing on the wall, and dropped the series. I'll be happy to continue reading if I at any point regain confidence that it will ever actually be finished... but, as has been the case with no few other talented writers with poor time-management skills, I can find other things to read while he decides whether or not he means to turn out a complete story.

Just try not to be a dick to the man.

He's a human being, and he's expressed frustration at it before, but if he dies, there's a far bigger tragedy than your stupid book series not being finished, there's a human being who no longer gets to experience the world, and that'll be tragic for him, and those who know him personally.

He's a human being, not a book delivery system.

Maybe try not discussing it in terms of an investment. Whether or not he finishes it, fuck, if he gets bored with it and decides to write hairstyling tips for Cosmopolitan, it's still a worthwhile read. You don't need to finish it to enjoy the time you spend reading it. If you did, none of us would play videogames.

Here's the thing. I'm not mad at GRRM for being slow at his job. He loses respect points because of that (compare to, say, S. Donaldson, who can put out much more complex (and I would argue, better) stories[1] in three year installments like clockwork, as he takes his craft much more seriously. But I can accept not everyone has the same work ethic). He's a slow writer. He does many other things (book tours, conventions, football, etc), and when he's doing those things, he doesn't write during that time. Well, fair enough. Those are the advantages of being your own boss. Good job if you can get it.

What irritates me about GRRM is his complete lack of regard for the fans of his series. He has said multiple times, the story goes to the grave with him. If he doesn't finish it, nobody will. That's a dick move. That is saying to the fans "I don't give a rat's ass whether or not you get to see the end of this tale. This is MY ball, and I'm taking it with me. Screw you guys, I'm going home". I'm sorry, but that is just effing lame.

Now, that's his right. It's his IP. But facing the same situation, R. Jordan made sure his fans would get to read the end of his tale, whether he got to write it or not. That's showing respect for your audience. I didn't love his series (it was far too derivative for my tastes, and moved far slower than I liked), but I totally respect him for ensuring the story would get finished if he didn't live to write it (which sadly he didn't). There is NO reason GRRM couldn't do the same if it came to it, except he's just being an ass.

In all honesty, I don't like him. I like his writing (mostly). And I'll pay him to read his books. But that's as far as it goes, a pure business relationship. As a person, I think he's a jerk, and a bit of a bully (not that I have any personal relationship with him, I can only go by the information he chooses to share with me). He doesn't care that I don't like him, and he can laugh at me all the way to the bank if he wants. That's fine.

I'm glad D&D are doing the HBO series for a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is I highly suspect that series is going to give us the only ending we're ever going to get. It's not as good as if we got to read it (through no fault of D&D, they are limited by the medium they are using, and what they are doing with it is impressive, but it can't hold up to the written word), but at least it's something.

[1]as a side note about SRDonadlson's books, I'd love to see movies and/or a series done on them, they would be great (and there has been some interest in them both past and possibly present). Sadly, I suspect it's never going to happen, as the protagonist does a very evil thing early on in the series, something many would consider completely unforgivable, and probably rightly so (it would be barely watchable if an antagonist did it, but to have the main protagonist doing such a thing ruins any chance of the series ever seeing film). And it's not like you could cut it, because it's an act that deeply affects and drives him from that point on. Too bad really.

s0osleepie:

Luminous_Umbra:
Perhaps you shouldn't use Full Metal Alchemist as a comparison if you're trying to not make this seem like a bad thing, seeing how poor the divergent version was. Just saying.

I'm not going to lie, I really liked classic FMA series once it figured itself out, but I recognize not everyone shares that opinion. What would you use as an example instead?

Fair enough.

I was personally fine with how Soul Eater diverged. Granted, I enjoyed the original more, but it was still quite enjoyable. (Not asking you to change it or anything like that, sorry if I came off that way.)

I am not mad at him, I am mad at myself. After the crazy amount of time I waited for The Dark Tower series by Stephen King to be finished (and faced a very real chance it would never be done) I vowed to never again start reading an unfinished series. I was dumb enough to start and get hooked, now I am dying to read the books and see where it ends. I tried the show, I don't like it so now I have to wait and avoid spoilers across the internet.

Never start an unfinished series, ever. There are plenty of completed series to fill time while waiting (I really loved The Malazan Book of the Fallen, ten books which were all done before I started reading them).

This news might surprise followers of the HBO series, but fans of the books have long since gotten used to the sound of deadlines whooshing past. I love ASoIaF, but if I've learned one thing during the last twenty years it's that if Mr Martin says "early 2016" what he actually means is "late 2017. If you're lucky. More likely mid 2018".

The show is increasingly diverging from the book. Going into the future, I doubt they will even be that similar any more.

Sad on one hand. Mountain vs. Viper. Wow.

But even similar things can change radically from book to show. Best recent example? The "Shame" nude scene with Cersei.

In the show, she is gorgeous and nude and fun to look at but you cannot help but feel her anger at how poorly she is being treated.

The book, with the same action, means a COMPLETELY different thing. It is the climax of the only interesting story line I found in book 4 and 5 and it is devastating.

She has been conducting herself as if power is all that matters. But stripped bare of her refinements and shorn of her "crown of beauty [hair] she is frighteningly mortal. A middle aged woman with 5 kids in medieval like times before plastic surgery and personal physical trainers. What she has been pursuing at the cost of her very soul is a temporary illusion.

So, I really no longer think of the books and shows as the same thing anymore. Now we get two fun but different things.

But Martin. Dude, hurry up!

Never, ever watched a single episode of the tv series.
Read the books and, much to my own surprise, I loved them.

Murder, rape, incest and all that stuff that by counteropposite makes it seem more childish in its attempt to be edgy.
But damn fine writing, awesome ability to jump from one character's psyche to another, and a story that never gets boring.

This made me all the more glad I didn't watch the tv series, by the way. I am 100% certain it's much inferior; I just needed to look at the cast to know it.

But, all this said.... yeah, he's taking too long. I think I even forgot where exactly we were in the books, now. Too bad because I'd have liked some closure to the story.

Politrukk:

The book fans anger aside there are a lot of people who are dissapointed with the death of Stannis and his family as well as that supposedly of Jon Snow.

I don't know why people keep saying this. The last episode I saw did a very dramatic cutaway before Breanne of Tarth actually cut Stannis. In fact, the sound she made sounded more like pain than a battle cry, and I fully expect in the new season, when they come back to that plot, that someone offscreen hits her and distracts her from killing Stannis. Seriously though, am I missing a scene or something? Because I didn't see any actual killing blow on Stannis, and in a show that is happy to show a pregnant woman being stabbed in the womb, and then having her throat slit, the fact that they don't show the killing blow is a very telling sign he isn't actually dead.

And besides, even if she does kill Stannis, so what? It's not like death is a permanent deterrent in this world. Not only are there undead, but there's the freaking Red God who brings people back from the dead. It's not like they don't have a Get Out of Death card for him if they really need it.

Happyninja42:

Politrukk:

The book fans anger aside there are a lot of people who are dissapointed with the death of Stannis and his family as well as that supposedly of Jon Snow.

I don't know why people keep saying this. The last episode I saw did a very dramatic cutaway before Breanne of Tarth actually cut Stannis. In fact, the sound she made sounded more like pain than a battle cry, and I fully expect in the new season, when they come back to that plot, that someone offscreen hits her and distracts her from killing Stannis. Seriously though, am I missing a scene or something? Because I didn't see any actual killing blow on Stannis, and in a show that is happy to show a pregnant woman being stabbed in the womb, and then having her throat slit, the fact that they don't show the killing blow is a very telling sign he isn't actually dead.

And besides, even if she does kill Stannis, so what? It's not like death is a permanent deterrent in this world. Not only are there undead, but there's the freaking Red God who brings people back from the dead. It's not like they don't have a Get Out of Death card for him if they really need it.

1 the showrunnes called it.
2 have you even read the books?

Everything that happens at Winterfell and the Wall is changed drastically.

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