Zero Punctuation: Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

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Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

This week, Zero Punctuation reviews Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.

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IMO, I blame Miyamoto for most Mario games being formulaic drivel. From the stuff I've read, whenever Nintendo's teams tried to do something creative or the like with the Mario games after Super Paper Mario, Miyamoto would intervene. It happened with Super Mario Galaxy 2, and it happened again with Sticker Star, and I'm guessing it was also the case here...

Strange thing is that it looks like Miyamoto had no involvement in this installment. Though, it also looks like AlphaDream, the developer, hasn't made anything else since they began working on the Mario & Luigi series.

Oh man! A new Mario RPG game! I can't wait to see how Yahtzee steps out of his comfort zone and universally praises this game for its engaging story, clever gameplay mechanics and laugh out loud comedy!

EDIT: Oh that's a shame. Good thing my comfort zones are logic and reality! And having stepped out of them I truly loved his praise of this game!

Superstar Saga was good too, back then it wasn't a formula yet and the more animated combat allowed more variety than Paper Mario. Shame that series went downhill/retreaded old ground until it reached the elevation of downhill.

to be honest, the Thousand Year Door is one of those games I really hope gets re-released seeing as it's a game I never had the chance to play. And considering that most people seem to really love it, I'm surprised Nintendo has yet to put it up on the eshop, the cost of prettying it up a bit'd be payed off by the end of day one of release. But maybe that's just my wishful thinking...

There is a new 3DS called the New 3DS (most confusing name ever) with a second little analog stick sort of nub in case you care. There was also one that came with Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate which I know you don't care about, even if giant monster fights are far more common than in Tri (as in every mission with a couple of exceptions more common).

"Hope you don't mind paper cuts"
"Where are they getting all the cardboard fro - OH MY GOD, YOU MONSTERS!"

Based on the ending scene, I guess Princess Peach doesn't mind.

Ok, that ending... way to make Super Mario terrifying for us, Yahtzee!

Multiverseman:
IMO, I blame Miyamoto for most Mario games being formulaic drivel. From the stuff I've read, whenever Nintendo's teams tried to do something creative or the like with the Mario games after Super Paper Mario, Miyamoto would intervene. It happened with Super Mario Galaxy 2, and it happened again with Sticker Star, and I'm guessing it was also the case here...

Miyamoto is mostly irrelevant in Mario development now. He only works on his own little Nintendo funded games. Even with Sticker Star, he only suggested to have less story in it. Intelligent Systems went full Unintelligent Systems and removed all of it. Miyamoto's role is now more of a gameplay consultant than a lead developer like he once was. Also during Miyamoto's regime, games had new gameplay and created formulas instead of being formulaic.

I blame other old developer in Nintendo being too afraid to do drastic changes to existing IPs. For a good reason. Don't fix what's not broken, and Mario certainly isn't. He's still printing money.

And it kinda makes sense to be formulaic the way Nintendo does it. When they change up the formula, they make a new game series out of it. Not in the same series. That's why we have all the different Mario games. Party, racer, RPG, 2D and 3D platformer... Almost got an TPS but it thankfully ended up as a new IP because I like the squid kids more than the Mario bloopers.

OT:
That ending. Mario truly has the deepest lore.

I haven't been impressed with the Mario & Luigi series since back when Game Boys only had one screen, so it's useful to know I probably don't need to spend any of my paycheck on this game either.

BiH-Kira:

Multiverseman:
IMO, I blame Miyamoto for most Mario games being formulaic drivel. From the stuff I've read, whenever Nintendo's teams tried to do something creative or the like with the Mario games after Super Paper Mario, Miyamoto would intervene. It happened with Super Mario Galaxy 2, and it happened again with Sticker Star, and I'm guessing it was also the case here...

Miyamoto is mostly irrelevant in Mario development now. He only works on his own little Nintendo funded games. Even with Sticker Star, he only suggested to have less story in it. Intelligent Systems went full Unintelligent Systems and removed all of it. Miyamoto's role is now more of a gameplay consultant than a lead developer like he once was. Also during Miyamoto's regime, games had new gameplay and created formulas instead of being formulaic.

I blame other old developer in Nintendo being too afraid to do drastic changes to existing IPs. For a good reason. Don't fix what's not broken, and Mario certainly isn't. He's still printing money.

And it kinda makes sense to be formulaic the way Nintendo does it. When they change up the formula, they make a new game series out of it. Not in the same series. That's why we have all the different Mario games. Party, racer, RPG, 2D and 3D platformer... Almost got an TPS but it thankfully ended up as a new IP because I like the squid kids more than the Mario bloopers.

OT:
That ending. Mario truly has the deepest lore.

I'm not quite sure how much freedom one has to reject ''suggestions'' from Miyamoto. From what I heard IS was working on a successor of thousand year door and had their work rejected by Miyamoto and then given the suggestions that led to Sticker star becoming Sticker star. That along with a phrase about Miyamoto being ''strict'' on them gives me more the image of a tight leash then mere suggestions.

Either way it were dumb suggestions that show little understanding or even respect for the Paper Mario series. Whether it was Miyamoto or IS who was behind it, they basically said ''Lets make this Paper Mario nothing like Paper Mario''

Peach X Peach... May you 69 them cut away and don't become too soggy when the juices start flowing... (Also, poor [Paper] Luigi...)

Other than that, how's the Mario & Luigi continuity going now that Paper Mario's continuity doesn't matter in this situation?

The comment about doing a lot of paper work had me laughing so hard I had to rewind the video to catch what I missed. And that ending, oh god that ending.

I'm going to have to find a copy of Thousand Year Door; I've been hearing lots of good things about it and I also remember having a lot of fun with paper mario rpg back on the snes when I rented it as a kid.

Yahtzee's tedium was palpable in this one.

I'm not at a place where I can watch the video right away, and I don't know where else to ask this, so:

Where was the Extra Punctuation column this week? Shouldn't it have come out yesterday?

Yahtzee, thanks to Rule 34, the denizens of DeviantArt won't let the fact that Mario and Luigi are brothers stop them. I thought that bit about Hilary becoming President came out of left field, and didn't really add much to the review, and I could use some explanation about that Soviet joke about the 3DS, what with I not having one. But the biggest laugh came from that ending. Just when I though nothing shocked him, BAM!

Bedinsis:
I'm not at a place where I can watch the video right away, and I don't know where else to ask this, so:

Where was the Extra Punctuation column this week? Shouldn't it have come out yesterday?

He's been doing them kind of sporadically for a while now. Maybe it's getting to be too much work with the all the other series/projects he's working on.

OT: I'm not surprised the game is bankrupt for new ideas, I mean, how much can a crossover with more Mario add? He's still Mario, only flatter. Also, I'm still kind of annoyed that Paper Mario is getting shafted here, since it's always been the better series. Second billing and apparently hardly any contribution to the gameplay, bah!

Catasros:
to be honest, the Thousand Year Door is one of those games I really hope gets re-released seeing as it's a game I never had the chance to play. And considering that most people seem to really love it, I'm surprised Nintendo has yet to put it up on the eshop, the cost of prettying it up a bit'd be payed off by the end of day one of release. But maybe that's just my wishful thinking...

In the meantime, I think a group of people made a texture mod for a higher resolution UI, so you could just run it in Dolphin until a proper re-release comes around.

Jonathan Cowie:
There is a new 3DS called the New 3DS (most confusing name ever) with a second little analog stick sort of nub in case you care. There was also one that came with Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate which I know you don't care about, even if giant monster fights are far more common than in Tri (as in every mission with a couple of exceptions more common).

Apparently it's because "New" (in English) sounds fancy and exotic in the Japanese market, and NOA didn't think "maybe we should rename it something sensible for the English-speaking market."
I've taken to internally calling it the "3DS Neo," which is still dumb sounding but gets the point across without being rediculously confusing.

ToastyMozart:

Jonathan Cowie:
There is a new 3DS called the New 3DS (most confusing name ever) with a second little analog stick sort of nub in case you care. There was also one that came with Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate which I know you don't care about, even if giant monster fights are far more common than in Tri (as in every mission with a couple of exceptions more common).

Apparently it's because "New" (in English) sounds fancy and exotic in the Japanese market, and NOA didn't think "maybe we should rename it something sensible for the English-speaking market."
I've taken to internally calling it the "3DS Neo," which is still dumb sounding but gets the point across without being rediculously confusing.

Or 3DS expansion since its basically just a 3DS with a Nintendo 64 style expansion pack built in and a second stick that should have always been there but apparently still kinda sucks.

"OUR HOUSE, IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR STREET!!!"

Hells yeah with the The Young Ones musical numbers reference!
"Walking, talking, Living doll" ... sounds like Peach to me!!! :O

Multiverseman:
IMO, I blame Miyamoto for most Mario games being formulaic drivel. From the stuff I've read, whenever Nintendo's teams tried to do something creative or the like with the Mario games after Super Paper Mario, Miyamoto would intervene. It happened with Super Mario Galaxy 2, and it happened again with Sticker Star, and I'm guessing it was also the case here...

I'm confused, you're saying Miyamoto stifles creativity in the Mario games...when Sticker Star's whole shtick was that it was copying too much from Thousand Year Door. That's not stifling creativity. I mean Sticker Star isn't great (it isn't horrible either it just was a poor choice for a Paper Mario title), but why are we now placing all of the blame on Miyamoto's shoulders here? As far as that Iwata's Ask was concerned, his beginning and ending input was the battle system and as controversial as it was, it had nothing to do with the formulaic plot.

Besides, this particular game seems more "MAKE FILLER GAMES TO FILL UP CALENDER WHILE THE REST OF US DO NX WORK!" Then Miyamoto intruding on the game. It's pretty much Dream Team but with Sticker Star assets.

OT: I personally enjoy the game because I enjoy the combat system of Mario and Luigi and the music by the Kingdom Hearts composer. I know it isn't as creative style wise but if you enjoyed Dream Team and want its biggest complaint of that game gone (tutorials are mostly tucked away), it's worth a look.

xaszatm:
Sticker Star's whole shtick was that it was copying too much from Thousand Year Door.

Wait, what? Besides returning to a turn-based format after Super's platforming, in what way did SS copy from TTYD?

People blame Miyamoto because he reportedly said that SS shouldn't have much story to facilitate it as a mobile game, and the lack of any of the previous Paper Mario's funny writing or story was generally considered Sticker Star's biggest problem.

Darth_Payn:
Yahtzee, thanks to Rule 34, the denizens of DeviantArt won't let the fact that Mario and Luigi are brothers stop them. I thought that bit about Hilary becoming President came out of left field, and didn't really add much to the review, and I could use some explanation about that Soviet joke about the 3DS, what with I not having one. But the biggest laugh came from that ending. Just when I though nothing shocked him, BAM!

I hope she doesn't become president(i'm a Sanders supporter), I still haven't forgotten how she tried to ban the sale of violent video games when that Hot Coffee scandal was going on(or that she voted in favor of the war in Iraq)

Well, looks like we've already got a candidate for Yahtzee's blandest games list.

ToastyMozart:

xaszatm:
Sticker Star's whole shtick was that it was copying too much from Thousand Year Door.

Wait, what? Besides returning to a turn-based format after Super's platforming, in what way did SS copy from TTYD?

People blame Miyamoto because he reportedly said that SS shouldn't have much story to facilitate it as a mobile game, and the lack of any of the previous Paper Mario's funny writing or story was generally considered Sticker Star's biggest problem.

No no, you misunderstand me. Miyamoto's only contribution to Sticker Star was to change the battle system, which originally was TTYD's battle system. He suggested they change it. And they changed it to Sticker Star's sticker system, which yeah, in my opinion was a mistake.

The second point just isn't true. People are compounded what he said about a different game (Four Sword Adventures) and copying it into Sticker Star. And your reasoning for your second point is weird, because the one game where he commented on that was a GameCube title.

My, my. Yahtzee's really taking an interest in United States politics (i.e. political drama).

Speaking of "drama", the ultimately rather pointless presence of a Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door writer being part of this game's team (as mentioned on Nintendo's YouTube channel) is as tragic as Hideo Kojima missing-out on Metal Gear Solid 5's Video Game Award.

xaszatm:

ToastyMozart:

xaszatm:
Sticker Star's whole shtick was that it was copying too much from Thousand Year Door.

Wait, what? Besides returning to a turn-based format after Super's platforming, in what way did SS copy from TTYD?

People blame Miyamoto because he reportedly said that SS shouldn't have much story to facilitate it as a mobile game, and the lack of any of the previous Paper Mario's funny writing or story was generally considered Sticker Star's biggest problem.

No no, you misunderstand me. Miyamoto's only contribution to Sticker Star was to change the battle system, which originally was TTYD's battle system. He suggested they change it. And they changed it to Sticker Star's sticker system, which yeah, in my opinion was a mistake.

The second point just isn't true. People are compounded what he said about a different game (Four Sword Adventures) and copying it into Sticker Star. And your reasoning for your second point is weird, because the one game where he commented on that was a GameCube title.

Here's what always infuriates me about the "Why do you guys hate Sticker Star? It's different, and you hate different, so it's good!" Then you proceed to inhale more nitrous from your spray paint carts...or whatever.

The Paper Mario games are intrinsically different. What defined them as a series was the fact that they had unique characters, unique enemies, took the player to crazy locales outside of the Mario norm. Even if you weren't a fan of the gameplay of Super Paper Mario, at least it could boast that it was taking you to some crazy places, had some great new characters, and had a strong story. It was a pretty cool ride.

Sticker Star, in being "different" from Paper Mario games, ended up being EXACTLY THE SAME as every other Mario game. Every NPC is a toad. The bad guys are all standard Mario enemies. Grassland-Desert-Forest-Jungle-IceWorld-Fireworld-Boss. It's, literally, New Super Mario Bros - The RPG.

Anyway, you're underselling Miyamoto's influence. He didn't "just" change the gameplay with his idea that the sticker mechanic is THE BEST THING EVAR. He's responsible for...well...pretty much everything. "'It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?' and 'As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.'" http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/2

No plot except the usual excuse plot with Bowser. No new characters, no new enemies, usual drivel.

He neutered the game, and left us with the same Mario we always get, not something different.

Llarys:

xaszatm:

ToastyMozart:

Wait, what? Besides returning to a turn-based format after Super's platforming, in what way did SS copy from TTYD?

People blame Miyamoto because he reportedly said that SS shouldn't have much story to facilitate it as a mobile game, and the lack of any of the previous Paper Mario's funny writing or story was generally considered Sticker Star's biggest problem.

No no, you misunderstand me. Miyamoto's only contribution to Sticker Star was to change the battle system, which originally was TTYD's battle system. He suggested they change it. And they changed it to Sticker Star's sticker system, which yeah, in my opinion was a mistake.

The second point just isn't true. People are compounded what he said about a different game (Four Sword Adventures) and copying it into Sticker Star. And your reasoning for your second point is weird, because the one game where he commented on that was a GameCube title.

Here's what always infuriates me about the "Why do you guys hate Sticker Star? It's different, and you hate different, so it's good!" Then you proceed to inhale more nitrous from your spray paint carts...or whatever.

The Paper Mario games are intrinsically different. What defined them as a series was the fact that they had unique characters, unique enemies, took the player to crazy locales outside of the Mario norm. Even if you weren't a fan of the gameplay of Super Paper Mario, at least it could boast that it was taking you to some crazy places, had some great new characters, and had a strong story. It was a pretty cool ride.

Sticker Star, in being "different" from Paper Mario games, ended up being EXACTLY THE SAME as every other Mario game. Every NPC is a toad. The bad guys are all standard Mario enemies. Grassland-Desert-Forest-Jungle-IceWorld-Fireworld-Boss. It's, literally, New Super Mario Bros - The RPG.

Anyway, you're underselling Miyamoto's influence. He didn't "just" change the gameplay with his idea that the sticker mechanic is THE BEST THING EVAR. He's responsible for...well...pretty much everything. "'It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?' and 'As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.'" http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/2

No plot except the usual excuse plot with Bowser. No new characters, no new enemies, usual drivel.

He neutered the game, and left us with the same Mario we always get, not something different.

...when did I say the game was great? I thought it was a good game by itself, but a poor Paper Mario title. I AGREE that changing the battle system was a poor choice. And I think the more generic story only hurt it in the long run (though I do find that the humor is still there, it's just not as pronounced). When did I say that others had to like Sticker Star for that matter?

Also, I still say the Club Nintendo survey did more to make Sticker Star what it was (for better or for worse) than Miyamoto himself. We are taking one paragraph as if Miyamoto viciously mandated it like some petty tyrant. I don't mean to undersell Miyamoto's influence because I don't think it was that influential.

KDR_11k:
Superstar Saga was good too, back then it wasn't a formula yet and the more animated combat allowed more variety than Paper Mario. Shame that series went downhill/retreaded old ground until it reached the elevation of downhill.

Partners in Time was still relatively fresh, and Bowser's Inside Story was still kind of nifty, but Dream Team really started to feel like a tired retread. Finishing the Challenges is what really killed it for me (i.e. "dodge x attacks in a row", "finish a battle against x without getting hit").

The immediate predecessor to Superstar Saga was the entirely unrelated Tomato Adventure, but alas, it has yet to be graced with a fan translation. (Translation tools have been made available, though, so it's not at all insurmountable.)

Now that Yahtzee mentions it, both 2D and 3D Peach have unique qualities that contrast each other very nicely.
wink wink nudge nudge.

Darth_Payn:
I thought that bit about Hilary becoming President came out of left field, and didn't really add much to the review

Whatever you say man, meanwhile it's the hardest I've laughed at anything Yahtzee's done since he started showing Gabe "how it's done" in darksouls2...

Maybe a lot of people just have Fatigue this year about Politics intersecting with Gaming, but part of that really is the fact that they do have a frightening number of things in common lately if you're fully educated on both of them. ...I think many armchair-Psychologists would agree it makes sense since they're both so reliant on the darker principles of Game-Theory

Well that ending was priceless but it still doesn't save this review from being just a bunch of nitpicks. Funny how Yahtzee calls this derivative yet this review felt equally derivative of his usual reviews.

I'll just buy the game and play it for myself and decide if it's good rather than listen to Yahtzee.

You know, i just noticed that these Mario reviews get downright frightening if you look at the moustaches as mouths. Those faces are the pure horror!

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