Agents of Cosplay: Cosplay is Not Consent

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Cosplay is Not Consent

Breaking down 'Cosplay is not consent'.

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I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

Solid video. And does kinda highlight that sometimes the short, easy to remember snappy phrases can rapidly become less useful as more meaning and baggage is assigned to it.

'Cosplay is not consent'
'What does that mean?'
'It means just because they're cosplaying doesn't mean they consented to being touched up on or hugged.'
'Oh, that makes sense!'
'It also means don't be mean.'
'Well, obviously, but what does being mean have to do with "consent"?'
'It also means don't take pictures of parts of their costume they don't want you to take pictures of'
'Uh....sure?'
'It also means - etc, etc, etc'

Obviously, encouraging behavior that makes everything safe and fun for everyone is a good thing, but people need to be careful to establish the rules specifically, rather than hoping neat little catchphrases convey everything in a single go.

To say nothing of the people where danged near everything is harassment or some offense.

Tl;dr: If you're going to a place with cosplay, make sure you actually read the attendee rules.

Lady Larunai:
I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

If your in public then anyone has a right to take pictures of you that's why CCTV exists.

If you are in your own home in front of your window anyone has the right to take pictures of you as long as they are not on your property.

That is where USA law stands.

P-89 Scorpion:

If your in public then anyone has a right to take pictures of you that's why CCTV exists.

If you are in your own home in front of your window anyone has the right to take pictures of you as long as they are not on your property.

That is where USA law stands.

This. Your desire to control your image or situation in public is not a right and it certainly does not trump the rights of others, including the right to photograph. Some of this reminds me of the issues around with celebrity privacy - they want the good elements exposure when it suits them but not when it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like all the 'look at this celebrity' stuff, and there are lots of dodgy cases around people intimidating others when taking photos of them. It's one of the nasty costs of keeping an important freedom. It would be nice if everyone was respectful and polite but it's important that they don't have to be.

I'm kinda surprised this topic didn't come up earlier. Anyway, I'm glad the part about "cosplay is not consent" also applying to men was included, since it tends to get overlooked, excused, or sometimes outright denied. Case in point, the ending of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUeDVYHWHIs

Lady Larunai:
snip

I'm a bit ambivalent in regard to how it applies to photography. I kinda see it along the lines of "a cosplayer is allowed to say no, and photographers shouldn't become upset by that". Obviously you can't stop someone from taking pictures even if the cosplayer doesn't want them to, but I generally see the issue of "photography consent" come up regarding asking a cosplayer for photos while they're eating, or while they're sitting down and resting/relaxing, and other stuff of that nature. Yeah, a photographer can still take the cosplayer's picture, but they shouldn't automatically expect the cosplayer to get up and pose for it. This also ties in with the examples given in the video, such as setting up excessive lighting equipment or expecting the cosplayer to travel to another location. Granted, I have seen people argue that you shouldn't even ask for pictures if a cosplayer is eating or resting, but just saying, "No, I'm eating" isn't all that difficult.

Lady Larunai:
I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

Speaking from experience here: some candid photographers are really just creeps. I've had to deal with some guy trying to take upskirt pictures of my friends and I (half of us weren't even in cosplay). The guy was kicked out of the convention, but did put his pictures, including a pantyshot taken without consent, on Youtube. That is obviously not okay.

As for candid pictures in general, I do kinda get the appeal. I mean, I get nervous when I try to pay attention to how I move/pose/smile and end up looking worse than I would when I act naturally. However, I do not like the idea of someone snapping pictures of me and just running off with them. I'm sure many, if not all people feel the same way. If you took some pictures, atleast walk up to the person, show them the photos and ask if they are okay with them. If they're not, please delete them.

BTW Now that I think about it, though, I don't think I've ever been to a convention where it's okay to take pictures without permission. The rules always state you need to ask cosplayers permission first.

I remember there being a thread earlier about taking photos of people without their permission, and the general consensus was that it was pretty darn rude.

Lady Larunai:
I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

It's not chiefly about respecting their art, it's about respecting the person. If someone doesn't want to have photos taken of them and you say "Screw you, my art's more important" then I'd be hard pressed to call the cosplayer the asshole in the situation.

That being said, the cosplayer also should have some right to decide how the art they created is used, even if it's just out of respect for the person. That being said, I don't want to have a discussion about the mess that is appropriation in the art world (Appropriation, in this context, is taking other people's art and using it in your own, with or without their permission).[1]

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

This really isn't about legal rights, this is about how people should treat other people. This reminds me of when you make a topic discussing the morality of an action and someone says "Well it's legal where I live". Even if it's totally legal, it doesn't mean that it's a decent thing to do.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherrie_Levine look at Style and Career for examples of how far you can take appropriation

You should treat people at a convention how they should reasonably expect to be treated for attending. In the old days that meant candid photography was par for the course, cosplay constituted both legal and moral consent. The new generation of attendees have forced their culture (ask before photography) on a community where the inverse was assumed (attending means consent). That kind of forced culture change was clearly asshole behavior as well, but arguably SJWs have won, so we'll have to live with it. Excuse the sour grapes though.

We are now stuck with this weird situation where if your journalistic credentials are good enough you can still take normal candid pictures, but if you are too amateur that's suddenly a no go. SJWs, making life a little more annoying wherever they go.

I'm confused a bit, are we discussing this in terms of legality or social contracts?

If the former, I'm pretty sure celebrities would've put tabloids out of business long ago, by just not consenting to paparazzi taking their picture.

The Almighty Aardvark:
I remember there being a thread earlier about taking photos of people without their permission, and the general consensus was that it was pretty darn rude.

Lady Larunai:
I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

It's not chiefly about respecting their art, it's about respecting the person. If someone doesn't want to have photos taken of them and you say "Screw you, my art's more important" then I'd be hard pressed to call the cosplayer the asshole in the situation.

That being said, the cosplayer also should have some right to decide how the art they created is used, even if it's just out of respect for the person. That being said, I don't want to have a discussion about the mess that is appropriation in the art world (Appropriation, in this context, is taking other people's art and using it in your own, with or without their permission).[1]

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

This really isn't about legal rights, this is about how people should treat other people. This reminds me of when you make a topic discussing the morality of an action and someone says "Well it's legal where I live". Even if it's totally legal, it doesn't mean that it's a decent thing to do.

At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.

While I feel it's completely in the cosplayer's right to ask the photographer to not take pictures, or delete them if they've already taken them, it's also the photographer's right to decline that request.

As long as neither party act like a dick, there's really no "problem". I mean, going off the other thread when all this came up photography of people in public spaces seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where people on the forum seem to be of the opinion "oh sure you can take pictures of people that happen to be in the public space" but it suddenly becomes bad/rude when they take pictures of people that happen to be in a public space ON PURPOSE.

So I'm inclined to err on the side of 'freedom as long as it does no harm' and side with the photographer in these situations as long as they're not acting like a dickbag or doing stuff like the prior mentioned upskirt shots. If the cosplayer doesn't like that, they're free to civilly discuss it with the photographer, or stop doing activities that draw attention to themselves in a public space.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherrie_Levine look at Style and Career for examples of how far you can take appropriation

Lady Larunai:

Snip

It all depends on context. Primarily I've seen this invoked to prevent situations like a cosplayer is browsing a dealers stall, and someone wants to take advantage of their distraction to take a shot up their skirt, down their top or directly of their backside. (example, I've seen tales of a cosplayer who ended up getting friends to stand behind her to avoid this, and in one case a particular persistent individual led to the friend practically dance around the cosplayer.) Candid shots are one thing, but taking stuff meant for fapping material... pretty creepy, and really not cool to do unless someone says yes.

Areloch:

At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.

How do you resolve this with the fact that there's a lot of vocal outcry against people taking pictures of them without their permission at these venues? As NPC009 mentioned here, a lot of conventions explicitly state that you should ask for someone's permission before taking a photo of them. It seems to be becoming less societally acceptable, at least among the people that it concerns.

As for the fact that everyone expects pictures to be taken of them, even if 95% of the time someone would agree to let you take a picture of them, at the very least that gives them control over how they present themselves in the photo. They don't have to try to keep themselves photogenic for the entire convention to prevent someone from spreading an ugly photo of them online.

While I feel it's completely in the cosplayer's right to ask the photographer to not take pictures, or delete them if they've already taken them, it's also the photographer's right to decline that request.

You wouldn't feel like anyone was doing anything wrong if a cosplayer was vocally telling a photographer to not take a photo of them all the while the photographer keeps snapping away? I'd say that contradicts the "As long as you don't act like a dick" rule in the next paragraph.

Assuming it's not against the conventions rules, it may be their right, but if it's the cosplayer's body that's the subject of your photo, it's incredibly rude if you don't respect their wishes regarding it.

As long as neither party act like a dick, there's really no "problem". I mean, going off the other thread when all this came up photography of people in public spaces seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where people on the forum seem to be of the opinion "oh sure you can take pictures of people that happen to be in the public space" but it suddenly becomes bad/rude when they take pictures of people that happen to be in a public space ON PURPOSE.

There's a difference between someone being in a photo incidentally, and being the subject of the photo. Nobody's going to care if you're taking a photo of a crowd (Unless they're in an embarassing position in it), but they may care if the photo is specifically of them. For something as easy as asking someone before you sneak a photo of them, I don't understand why there's so much outcry against it.

I'm not saying that it should be illegal, I'm saying that it's rude and inconsiderate. In practice, I doubt most people would follow what they're condoning here. Complete strangers taking photos of you can be unnerving, you don't know what they're going to do with them, and it only makes it more worrying when they clearly don't care what your feelings are on how they use it (Particularly when you ask them to delete a photo of you and they refuse).

A lot of the examples used in the video I can understand, since those people are like "lemme set up this stuff and oh by the way can we go to my studio" <_< like, no no no.

But if I got a camera and I am taking pictures to remember my visit by, I am not looking for upskirts <_<, you might as well be dressed up as Donald Duck, I'm taking a picture because like, "oh cool, it's that character".

Of course this is all hypothetical because I've never gone to a convention, and when I do finally get around to going to cons, I'm gonna be dressed like this:

I like how all this boils down to:

Ahem.... "COULD YOU PLEASE BE A DECENT HUMAN BEING?"

No seriously... the things asked for in this video should be filed under "common curtesy"... but aparantly in the spirit of conventions common sense takes the way of the dodo or something? Is this actually such a wide spread problem in the US? (comming from someone in germany where events usually are smaller and until recently women where rather safe at big events)

I cant even begin to understand how someone can think that a skimpy cosplay as an automatic invitation to gropyness... i mean for heavens sake.. even at strip clubs where women get paid to get naked infront of you youre not allowed to touch... at all... and these people who simply dress up as their favorite characters suddenly are fair game?

But then again this entire thing could be a storm in a glass of water and a few rotten apples make the whole thing look completly out of proportion. IT would be nice to see some actual numbers (without any political or idealogical motivations attached please) to see how "big" this problem at conventions really is.

Anyways.. it is NEVER okay to simply walk up to a random person and start touching them... i know i would punch someone in the face if they just waltzed up to me and started touching me...

Lady Larunai:
You cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography).

Apples and goats. The only participant in self-expression via cosplay is yourself. "Candid photography," as you choose to describe taking pictures of people who object to being photographed, involves people other than yourself. Deliberately snapping pictures of other people without their consent or knowledge is permissible under rule of law and the terms of most conventions, but it's still a fucking slimy thing to do, and the only benefit to be gleaned from it is that such a photographer is at least willing to announce to us all that he's willing to be shitty. Nice to have that warning, at least.

About the photography thing, you may have every right to take creep shots of people in a public space. You may have every right to walk down the street yelling "suck my dick" while motioning exaggeratedly toward your crotch. That doesn't make either of these things the right thing to do though, and it honestly isn't that hard to avoid doing either while enjoying your life. I'd know, I have a large quantity of pictures of cosplayers that I never needed to creep shot to aquire, and I've never felt any worse for having never yelled suck my dick at a passing stranger while motioning exaggeratedly towards my crotch.

Further, most conventions aren't really at a public space. They're at hotels or convention centers the con organizers paid to rent, private property of private businesses, so they have every right to kick you out if you break their rules and it honestly isn't unreasonable for congoers to expect some level of privacy if the convention organizers claim there will be.

The Almighty Aardvark:

Areloch:

At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.

How do you resolve this with the fact that there's a lot of vocal outcry against people taking pictures of them without their permission at these venues? As NPC009 mentioned here, a lot of conventions explicitly state that you should ask for someone's permission before taking a photo of them. It seems to be becoming less societally acceptable, at least among the people that it concerns.

As for the fact that everyone expects pictures to be taken of them, even if 95% of the time someone would agree to let you take a picture of them, at the very least that gives them control over how they present themselves in the photo. They don't have to try to keep themselves photogenic for the entire convention to prevent someone from spreading an ugly photo of them online.

Sure, if it's specifically against con rules, that's an entirely different thing, as there IS an expectation of being asked before pictures happen. However, that's not at all always the case, and when it's not specifically part of the rules, people can't EXPECT that to be a requirement.

While I feel it's completely in the cosplayer's right to ask the photographer to not take pictures, or delete them if they've already taken them, it's also the photographer's right to decline that request.

You wouldn't feel like anyone was doing anything wrong if a cosplayer was vocally telling a photographer to not take a photo of them all the while the photographer keeps snapping away? I'd say that contradicts the "As long as you don't act like a dick" rule in the next paragraph.

Does someone being photographed gets absolute say in what happens with that photograph, even superseding what the photographer wants? Because going off that, that'd apply to anyone that happens to be in a shot, meaning 'Random person in the background 37' has justification to ask for the picture to be deleted otherwise the photographer is now a dick.

Like, say I ask for permission and take a picture of someone in a hallway at a convention real fast and because it was in the hallway, other people were in the background. Cosplayer A moves on with their day, but Cosplayer B who was in the background saw I took a picture in their general direction, and took offense to that for whatever reason and want me to delete the picture.

Given that the picture wasn't even about them, they're incidental to the picture I took a la the 'taking pictures of a crowd' thing everyone seems to agree with. So am I being a dick because I don't adhere to their wishes to delete the picture they're only in in passing?

That's the problem. ALL of this is incredibly gray and there isn't any specific line that is easily walked over that suddenly makes one person in the wrong.

As long as neither party act like a dick, there's really no "problem". I mean, going off the other thread when all this came up photography of people in public spaces seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where people on the forum seem to be of the opinion "oh sure you can take pictures of people that happen to be in the public space" but it suddenly becomes bad/rude when they take pictures of people that happen to be in a public space ON PURPOSE.

There's a difference between someone being in a photo incidentally, and being the subject of the photo. Nobody's going to care if you're taking a photo of a crowd (Unless they're in an embarassing position in it), but they may care if the photo is specifically of them. For something as easy as asking someone before you sneak a photo of them, I don't understand why there's so much outcry against it.

I'm not saying that it should be illegal, I'm saying that it's rude and inconsiderate. In practice, I doubt most people would follow what they're condoning here. Complete strangers taking photos of you can be unnerving, you don't know what they're going to do with them, and it only makes it more worrying when they clearly don't care what your feelings are on how they use it (Particularly when you ask them to delete a photo of you and they refuse).

Actually, as someone that has cosplayed many a time, if someone took pictures of me when I wasn't aware of it while out and about at the convention, I don't have a problem with it.

Heck, there's a non-insignificant chance - given that it's the internet - that someone may have found one of my cosplay pictures and jacked off to it. I wouldn't know if that's actually true, but I'm not about to let it bother me because I was in a public space, in a fancy costume where picture taking was the norm.

If I didn't want people taking pictures of me, I wouldn't have gotten dressed up. I'm not saying everyone has to be as un-bothered about that as me, but my rights in a public space don't randomly supersede someone else's rights in a public space, and I'm fine with that. Others may disagree, and that's fine, but at minimum, I practice what I preach.

Areloch:

Sure, if it's specifically against con rules, that's an entirely different thing, as there IS an expectation of being asked before pictures happen. However, that's not at all always the case, and when it's not specifically part of the rules, people can't EXPECT that to be a requirement.

I'm trying to say that there kind of is that expectation. I've been to a few conventions, and I've never been to one where I saw people taking pictures without permission. Everyone asked, because asking is the polite thing to do. You don't just get people snapping pictures as they walk past you. Even when it wasn't an explicit rule.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say this happens at every convention, just that all the ones I've been to have had this at the very least as an expectation

Does someone being photographed gets absolute say in what happens with that photograph, even superseding what the photographer wants? Because going off that, that'd apply to anyone that happens to be in a shot, meaning 'Random person in the background 37' has justification to ask for the picture to be deleted otherwise the photographer is now a dick.

Like, say I ask for permission and take a picture of someone in a hallway at a convention real fast and because it was in the hallway, other people were in the background. Cosplayer A moves on with their day, but Cosplayer B who was in the background saw I took a picture in their general direction, and took offense to that for whatever reason and want me to delete the picture.

Given that the picture wasn't even about them, they're incidental to the picture I took a la the 'taking pictures of a crowd' thing everyone seems to agree with. So am I being a dick because I don't adhere to their wishes to delete the picture they're only in in passing?

That's the problem. ALL of this is incredibly gray and there isn't any specific line that is easily walked over that suddenly makes one person in the wrong.

You didn't comment on whether or not you thought the photographer was doing something wrong, am I correct in assuming you wouldn't defend the photographer for keeping taking photos when the cosplayer is explicitly telling them not to?

Of course, in the situation you describe, that's pretty unreasonable. Having to confirm with absolutely every background person in the photo would make taking photos pretty much impossible. It'd be an unreasonable expectation, as taking photos is, as you've mentioned, something that's a part of conventions. Asking someone if they'd mind before taking a photo specifically of them is a pretty small concession to make for the sake of their ease. And there seems to be an indication that a number of people who would be put at ease for it.

Really, in the end, I feel like the cosplayer has more entitlement to how their image is used than a random stranger with a camera.

Actually, as someone that has cosplayed many a time, if someone took pictures of me when I wasn't aware of it while out and about at the convention, I don't have a problem with it.

Heck, there's a non-insignificant chance - given that it's the internet - that someone may have found one of my cosplay pictures and jacked off to it. I wouldn't know if that's actually true, but I'm not about to let it bother me because I was in a public space, in a fancy costume where picture taking was the norm.

If I didn't want people taking pictures of me, I wouldn't have gotten dressed up. I'm not saying everyone has to be as un-bothered about that as me, but my rights in a public space don't randomly supersede someone else's rights in a public space, and I'm fine with that. Others may disagree, and that's fine, but at minimum, I practice what I preach.

I meant more in regard to a situation where you saw someone deliberately disregarding someone else's feelings on the picture. Like in the situation I described earlier. Or if someone said "Sorry, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take pictures of me without asking" the photographer apologized, then continued to go around taking photos of them hiding outside of their view. Or if there's an embarrassing photo taken of a cosplayer that they want removed and the photographer tells them really nicely "I'm sorry you feel that way, but this photo is funny and I want to put it online to get hits".

Honestly, it's really hard to come up with situations where the photographer doesn't look like an ass for disregarding the person in the photo's wishes outside of the background photo example. Even in the background example if it bothered the person enough I'd blur out their face or something like that.

If I am in a public space I will take any picture of anything or anyone I want to. I'm not going to go out of my way to be a dick about it of course, but if I am in public and can snap a picture I am allowed to snap a picture, at least where I live.

Otherwise it should be obvious, don't touch people unless they let you.

The Almighty Aardvark:

Areloch:

Sure, if it's specifically against con rules, that's an entirely different thing, as there IS an expectation of being asked before pictures happen. However, that's not at all always the case, and when it's not specifically part of the rules, people can't EXPECT that to be a requirement.

I'm trying to say that there kind of is that expectation. I've been to a few conventions, and I've never been to one where I saw people taking pictures without permission. Everyone asked, because asking is the polite thing to do. You don't just get people snapping pictures as they walk past you. Even when it wasn't an explicit rule.

Ehh, I disagree since, you know, the whole "you're out in public" thing. It's the polite thing to do, sure, but I'd expect it to happen about as much as I'd expect it out on the street.

Does someone being photographed gets absolute say in what happens with that photograph, even superseding what the photographer wants? Because going off that, that'd apply to anyone that happens to be in a shot, meaning 'Random person in the background 37' has justification to ask for the picture to be deleted otherwise the photographer is now a dick.

Like, say I ask for permission and take a picture of someone in a hallway at a convention real fast and because it was in the hallway, other people were in the background. Cosplayer A moves on with their day, but Cosplayer B who was in the background saw I took a picture in their general direction, and took offense to that for whatever reason and want me to delete the picture.

Given that the picture wasn't even about them, they're incidental to the picture I took a la the 'taking pictures of a crowd' thing everyone seems to agree with. So am I being a dick because I don't adhere to their wishes to delete the picture they're only in in passing?

That's the problem. ALL of this is incredibly gray and there isn't any specific line that is easily walked over that suddenly makes one person in the wrong.

You didn't comment on whether or not you thought the photographer was doing something wrong, am I correct in assuming you wouldn't defend the photographer for keeping taking photos when the cosplayer is explicitly telling them not to?

Whoops, sorry about that, I'd meant to. If they're actively taking multiple pictures even after being asked to stop(assuming they were asked in a reasonable manner) then yeah, that's at minimum a passive aggressive thing to do, and probably pretty dickish. However, it seems like the issue with the topic at hand is more 'Taking pictures at all', rather than "Did you go out of your way to persistently disregard their wishes". The latter is probably pretty dickish, yeah.

Of course, in the situation you describe, that's pretty unreasonable. Having to confirm with absolutely every background person in the photo would make taking photos pretty much impossible. It'd be an unreasonable expectation, as taking photos is, as you've mentioned, something that's a part of conventions. Asking someone if they'd mind before taking a photo specifically of them is a pretty small concession to make for the sake of their ease. And there seems to be an indication that a number of people who would be put at ease for it.

Well, and that's the thing. Most of the time, photographers do ask, and cosplayers do agree. The entire topic is pertaining to the more outlier cases. But the innate presumption to expectation of privacy and not getting pictures taken does indeed complicate certain circumstances in which the photographer has done nothing wrong, which was my point. It's very gray, and this sort of subject tends to attract people to place down "X is wrong, period" sorts of absolutes.

Really, in the end, I feel like the cosplayer has more entitlement to how their image is used than a random stranger with a camera.

I'm probably in the opposite camp, what with my comments about making concessions as a cosplayer in a public space, but I do understand why you'd feel that way. Just a difference in opinion :)

Actually, as someone that has cosplayed many a time, if someone took pictures of me when I wasn't aware of it while out and about at the convention, I don't have a problem with it.

Heck, there's a non-insignificant chance - given that it's the internet - that someone may have found one of my cosplay pictures and jacked off to it. I wouldn't know if that's actually true, but I'm not about to let it bother me because I was in a public space, in a fancy costume where picture taking was the norm.

If I didn't want people taking pictures of me, I wouldn't have gotten dressed up. I'm not saying everyone has to be as un-bothered about that as me, but my rights in a public space don't randomly supersede someone else's rights in a public space, and I'm fine with that. Others may disagree, and that's fine, but at minimum, I practice what I preach.

I meant more in regard to a situation where you saw someone deliberately disregarding someone else's feelings on the picture. Like in the situation I described earlier. Or if someone said "Sorry, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take pictures of me without asking" the photographer apologized, then continued to go around taking photos of them hiding outside of their view. Or if there's an embarrassing photo taken of a cosplayer that they want removed and the photographer tells them really nicely "I'm sorry you feel that way, but this photo is funny and I want to put it online to get hits".

Honestly, it's really hard to come up with situations where the photographer doesn't look like an ass for disregarding the person in the photo's wishes outside of the background photo example. Even in the background example if it bothered the person enough I'd blur out their face or something like that.

Right, and that goes back to a more extreme end of the "Taking pictures of someone without their permission". I think there's nothing wrong with snapping a picture of a cosplayer in passing in the hallway or whatnot.

But actively and persistently disregarding what they want is a pretty dickish thing to do (Heck, continuing to follow them around at take pictures of them starts to drift into "stalking" territory, which society already has rules about anyways).

I don't consider them to be the same degree of action, and feel that's an important distinction, but whenever this comes up, it feels like "taking anyone's picture without their knowledge/permission beforehand is wrong - except when it isn't" and I find that to be a pretty unreasonable stance overall if only because of how vague and arbitrary that approach is.
Given how society works, it's going to be a gray line no matter what, but I think trying to narrow the band a little is fair.

Areloch:

Whoops, sorry about that, I'd meant to. If they're actively taking multiple pictures even after being asked to stop(assuming they were asked in a reasonable manner) then yeah, that's at minimum a passive aggressive thing to do, and probably pretty dickish. However, it seems like the issue with the topic at hand is more 'Taking pictures at all', rather than "Did you go out of your way to persistently disregard their wishes". The latter is probably pretty dickish, yeah.

Right, and that goes back to a more extreme end of the "Taking pictures of someone without their permission". I think there's nothing wrong with snapping a picture of a cosplayer in passing in the hallway or whatnot.

But actively and persistently disregarding what they want is a pretty dickish thing to do (Heck, continuing to follow them around at take pictures of them starts to drift into "stalking" territory, which society already has rules about anyways).

I don't consider them to be the same degree of action, and feel that's an important distinction, but whenever this comes up, it feels like "taking anyone's picture without their knowledge/permission beforehand is wrong - except when it isn't" and I find that to be a pretty unreasonable stance overall if only because of how vague and arbitrary that approach is.
Given how society works, it's going to be a gray line no matter what, but I think trying to narrow the band a little is fair.

Yeah, it's off of the main topic, the only reason I brought them up was that you said the photographer has the right to decline someone's request to take photos of them, or delete a photo of them. And while I agree that they might have the legal right, they're being inconsiderate in doing so. Generally not the kind of behavior you'd what to have at a fun and friendly convention.

Well, and that's the thing. Most of the time, photographers do ask, and cosplayers do agree. The entire topic is pertaining to the more outlier cases. But the innate presumption to expectation of privacy and not getting pictures taken does indeed complicate certain circumstances in which the photographer has done nothing wrong, which was my point. It's very gray, and this sort of subject tends to attract people to place down "X is wrong, period" sorts of absolutes.

That's more or less what I'm saying. It is the societal norm for photographers to ask. More than anything, it's polite to ask before taking a photo of someone and it's rude to take it without asking. Just like how con-goers shouldn't just let all the friends they see cut in line in front of them, you should ask before taking someone's photo.

I also stand by what I said earlier, the kind of person who won't put in the effort to be considerate to me is a lot lower on the list of people I'd want taking photos of me.

I'm the one who had a thread similar to this subject. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.933253-Whats-The-Etiquette-of-Taking-Pictures-of-Strangers

A quick summation of the thread is that I work in a tourist area. Every once in a while, someone would take a picture of me without my permission. After I confronted the last person who did this, he basically told me to drop dead.

I think this person said it best:

Karadalis:
I like how all this boils down to:

Ahem.... "COULD YOU PLEASE BE A DECENT HUMAN BEING?"

It's really not the act of getting your picture taken. It's the motivation and intention of the use of picture. If you feel you have to sneak around to get a picture of someone, then the odds are that you do not have honorable intentions.

There is a difference between candid photography and creepy/creeper photography. That goes to intention. One is art. The other is for malicious use.

If you are going to take a picture of someone, don't be a jerk.

NPC009:

Speaking from experience here: some candid photographers are really just creeps. I've had to deal with some guy trying to take upskirt pictures of my friends and I (half of us weren't even in cosplay). The guy was kicked out of the convention, but did put his pictures, including a pantyshot taken without consent, on Youtube. That is obviously not okay.

I've heard that in Japan numerous conventions now require anyone taking pictures to be in a standing position with the camera at eye level. No sitting, no kneeling, no lying on the ground, no exceptions. I know it wouldn't stop all of it, but I'm sure it put a dent in upskirting shots.

While the touching side of this is not question to the point it applies to all attendees, not just cospalyers, pictures are a bit dicey. I have always followed the common etiquette of asking first (if only to get a better picture with whatever cheap ass camera I had at the time going back to film) but I can see a line where I'm not entirely sure of the problem. Yeah, if the camera is actually up your skit or aimed at your cleavage, it's understandable right down to pressing charges, but if the potential photo doesn't appear skeevy in any way, it's more likely to be someone shy, after less posed and more natural photos, or just treating a con like photographing wildlife (quick before it disappears and don't spook it). Courtesy is a bit of a 2 way street, and just as people should ask first, cosplayers shouldn't assume pervert if someone doesn't, at least when they're in an outfit that says "look at me" more than "comfortable con wear".

When it comes to cosplay, I'll ask first if I can take a picture. Everyone I've asked so far has said yes, and will usually strike a pose for a better picture.

Which is all good, because I only have the camera from my phone, which is a piece of shit.

I just assume that people don't like being touched. It saves time.

Some might, but why take the risk?

Lady Larunai:
I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.

Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works

On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public

Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken

On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places

Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched

Conventions are semi-public spaces. The public can't freely wander in as purchasing a pass is required. While in a convention and out of view from a public space you should have the same rights to control the capture of your image as in your own home.

The only people I've seen who will make a photo better when knowing they're the subject are professional models, everyone else just looks awful, though cosplayers can be a little better than most. This means candid photos are the way to go and the best option is to simply ask someone beforehand and, while not stalking them, keep an eye out for opportunities for good photos of them throughout the day. Second best is asking after the fact and immediately deleting the image if they indicate that is their desire.

SecondPrize:
Conventions are semi-public spaces. The public can't freely wander in as purchasing a pass is required. While in a convention and out of view from a public space you should have the same rights to control the capture of your image as in your own home.

That would make photography at conventions almost impossible, so it shouldn't be the case and it almost never is the case.

We're probably heading to a system where attendance requires giving legal consent to be photographed by vetted photographers with press cards, with everyone else having to ask consent and take pictures only in special areas where you can be sure you don't catch others in your shot.

Pinky's Brain:

SecondPrize:
Conventions are semi-public spaces. The public can't freely wander in as purchasing a pass is required. While in a convention and out of view from a public space you should have the same rights to control the capture of your image as in your own home.

That would make photography at conventions almost impossible, so it shouldn't be the case and it almost never is the case.

We're probably heading to a system where attendance requires giving legal consent to be photographed by vetted photographers with press cards, with everyone else having to ask consent and take pictures only in special areas where you can be sure you don't catch others in your shot.

Permission can be given and photos taken when permission is granted. Bear in mind that if you're background, you can't tell people not to photograph you because all you have to do is move and, as you're not the subject, the lens won't follow you.

Also, the thing with press is that if a member of the press does act in a disrespectful manner, they can be easily tracked down afterwards and held responsible. That's much harder with random no-names. I've never been to a convention where press weren't urged to ask permission, by the way.

Personally, when I am taking pictures as a member of the press, I don't just ask permission, I explain which magazine/website I work for and how the pictures may be used for. If possible, I show them the pictures I took. Sometimes I note down an e-mailaddress, so I can send the cosplayer a link to the article. I might even send them a copy of the magazine if they were really helpful. Most cosplayers are enthousiastic about getting a chance to appear in a magazine, but some want to protect their privacy and you have to respect that.

SecondPrize:
Bear in mind that if you're background, you can't tell people not to photograph you because all you have to do is move and, as you're not the subject, the lens won't follow you.

I guess your x-gene kicked in, normal people have neither the omnidirectional perception nor the speed necessary to do that.

SecondPrize:

Conventions are semi-public spaces. The public can't freely wander in as purchasing a pass is required. While in a convention and out of view from a public space you should have the same rights to control the capture of your image as in your own home.

Not really. Unless a place has specific rules regarding photo taking, you don't really have any sort of right to privacy unless the management dictates thus (within reason, you have a right not be photographed in a bathroom, for example).

But, unless the convention wishes to have some sort of rules set up (ie. "all photographs require subject's permission or you will be removed from the premises") you're essentially fair game. The problem with a rule like this is that it comes with a whole new set of potential issues: people in the background inadvertently being in photos is just one of them.

Pinky's Brain:

SecondPrize:
Bear in mind that if you're background, you can't tell people not to photograph you because all you have to do is move and, as you're not the subject, the lens won't follow you.

I guess your x-gene kicked in, normal people have neither the omnidirectional perception nor the speed necessary to do that.

Most people ask cosplayers to pose, so if you see cosplayers posing and someone holding a camera, you can just get out of the shot. Many people do so out of courtesy anyway.

NPC009:

Speaking from experience here: some candid photographers are really just creeps. I've had to deal with some guy trying to take upskirt pictures of my friends and I (half of us weren't even in cosplay). The guy was kicked out of the convention, but did put his pictures, including a pantyshot taken without consent, on Youtube. That is obviously not okay.

Little awkward with an SLR and a 75-300m lens.. even with a remote :/

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