Batman v Superman - Dawn of Justice - Cultivating Apathy

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JimB:

Samtemdo8:
Okay then, they evacuate the population and/or placed them in a stronghold to defend, but there is still the matter of dealing with the hostile alien forces that could still be after them.

Yes. These are things they have the power to deal with in a nonlethal fashion.

Samtemdo8:
Prince Anduin is now king of a grand alliance of different races with a whole slew of warriors and heroes who can control holy powers that can go as far as raising a recently slain person, control of the very classical elements of earth, wind, water, and fire Avatar-style, and mighty warriors capable of killing great demons and monsters.

Uh, okay. Again, I have no familiarity with Warcraft, so none of that has the context to make any sense to me. If you insist he has the personal power necessary to pacify an entire army, then...sure, I guess. That still leaves you with the problem of having to demonstrate that real people are making both the statements you attribute to them and are doing so for hypocritical reasons.

1. Do you assume that the DC heroes aswell as Marvel Heroes in general has the power to ward off ALL threats non-lethally? Even in the face against Mighty and Powerful Foreces that at times can overpower the heroes? In the inevitable Infinity Gauntlet movie Thanos will have all the gems in his Gauntlet, with it he has the power nearly unto a GOD. Even surpassing Normal Superman. And Darkseid has the Anti Life Equation.

2. The criticism against Anduin is that his pacivity and "there is got to be another way" attitude renders him to in-action and incapable of doing what is necessary, where he tries to find another to deal with a great evil threat even if the only answer to stop it is to fight and kill the evil/powerful threat.

I try to apply this criticism to Superman.

Samtemdo8:
Do you assume that the DC heroes as well as Marvel heroes in general has the power to ward off all threats non-lethally?

I have not said one word in this discussion about DC heroes in general, Marvel heroes in general, or Marvel heroes at all. I do not know what game you are playing at, Samtemdo8, but whatever it is, I will thank you to drop it and please limit yourself to responding to comments I have actually made, which in this instance are specifically about members of the Justice League who can be expected to appear in the upcoming movies.

Samtemdo8:
Darkseid has the Anti-Life Equation.

I don't know what continuity you're talking about, but in any continuity I'm familiar with, he has no such thing, because all life would have ended if he did.

Samtemdo8:
The criticism against Anduin is that his pacifism and "there has to be another way" attitude renders him to inaction and incapable of doing what is necessary, where he tries to find another to deal with a great evil threat even if the only answer to stop it is to fight and kill the evil/powerful threat.

I try to apply this criticism to Superman.

If you're the one applying this criticism, then why did you originally attribute it to others in order to mock their apparently imaginary hypocrisy?

Samtemdo8:
Even surpassing Normal Superman. And Darkseid has the Anti Life Equation.

What? First of all, the anti-life equation is actually pretty pathetic - Most of the time it's actually used, it never really does anything that a Batman villain couldn't do on any given day of the week. The only time I'm aware of it actually killing someone is when Luthor shows it to Darkseid, at which point Darkseid dies.

Pretty shitty result, as far as math goes.

Caramel Frappe:

That and Lex Luther's in Batman vs Superman had so many random reasons for doing what he did- that no one could pin point what his motivation was. Without a logical or understandable conclusion as to why he hated Superman makes him ... well, a mess of a character people don't take interest in anymore.

I think there's two possibilities when it comes to Luther's motivations in this movie.

1. He's an anarchist, and he's simply offended at the pure power Superman has, as well as disgusted by the US government as a whole, or...

2. He finally lost the legal fight trying to lift the court order that mandated that he stay at least 500 feet away from any school building. Robbed of the joy of underaged teenagers, the supremely creepy Luther decides to take on Superman and Congress because what the hell else is he supposed to do?

Samtemdo8:

Gordon_4:

TheLaughingMagician:
Has anything ever been as bad as Bob says it was? I tend to like and dislike the same movies as him but apart from fantfourstic I don't think I've ever gotten as worked up over a movie, I don't think I've ever gotten that worked up over actual crimes.

Green Lantern; I think he was right on the money with Green Lantern.

I'm honestly amazed at how much of a drumming this movie is getting. Like I wasn't expecting much out of it personally but I'm supposed to be one of those never pleased types about this sort of shit. I expected it to at least resonate and do okay with general audiences and less invested critics but all I'm hearing is either 'Second Coming of Christ' or 'Satan is assaulting Heaven's Gate'

Samtemdo8:

So what Batman and Superman should not kill in the inevitable fight against Darkside and his huge Army of soldiers?

Because the Avengers did kill in the fight against the Aliens.

The (three primary) Avengers are in order: an American soldier who saw battle in the fields of Europe in World War II, a high functioning alcoholic narcissist and king of the MIC (who suffered PTSD from nearly dying) and one of the most famously violent members of a Pantheon famous for reveling in bloodshed. They wouldn't be adverse to killing mainly on strength of their backgrounds alone. Superman and Batman have entirely different experiences and circumstances to shape them as people and heroes.

You do realize that Darkseid is unresonable. That is armies will attack and kill without mercy.

Superman and the Batman will not even the chance to knock them out and send them all to jail.

Funny, people complain about Prince Anduin Wrynn in World of Warcraft for being a painfully stunted pacifist in the face of a clear unreasonable warlike enemy and the fans wants to push him into War against the enemies of the alliance (Garrosh's horde, THe Burning Legion)

But when Superman has to fight and kill everyone wants him to be the same pacifistic upholder of Justice.

Yeah, no fucking shit Darkseid is unreasonable. I didn't have an issue with them killing Doomsday - I mean what the fuck else are they going to do with him? - but Superman didn't need to kill the guy that had Lois at gunpoint; he'd won that fight by virtue of showing up and killing him counts as a unilateral strike by (ostensibly) an American citizen on a foreign country: wars have been fought over less. That's my beef; Superman has to kill Darkseid, fair enough, they aren't recycling him for next month here so proper closure and all that. Also I think you're confusing pacifism with reasonable restraint. A pacifist wouldn't do a damn thing at all, Superman strikes me as more the guy who gets in between a fight and breaks it up.

Also, why wasn't Luthor given the death penalty since he's guilty of acts of terrorism?

So it's a mess? Of it is a mess.

You can't tell a story while trying to build an entire universe in a single movie. And Lex Luthor... ugh!

They had the money and the time but they still managed to screw this one badly.

It's not great but it's not terrible either people saying it's terrible really need to watch Batman & Robin again and I think it's probably better than the Tim Burton Batman movies (which have not aged well post Nolan Trilogy).

I'm interested to see what ended up on the cutting room floor (almost 30minuites) and what difference it makes. I get feeling watching the film that it won't be inconsequential, despite what Snyder is saying and the studio may have badly screwed with the movie.

tzimize:
What little we saw of wonder woman was cool, but she was, as most "characters" in this movie...a cardboard cutout at best. There was nothing at all to differentiate her from Superman. She could take a superpunch and had a sword+shield. The "trinity" moment was lame, the only enjoyable moment in the entire movie was when they were all 3 attacking Doomsday. A bit cool.

Despite her being in the whole movie, I chalk up her role to a mere cameo. The lack of color really bugged me this time around.

Honestly, if he had cut the amount of slow motion "check this out people" scenes by half, we might have had time for some actual story.

This annoyed me so much during the movie. Slow motion scene.. because Lex sees the spaceship. Slow motion scene.. because Lex is walking down a hallway. Seriously, I started blocking this stuff out so much that after seeing the movie and watching reviews, I kept seeing people talk about the 'theme song sound effect' they played for every character when they were on camera and I didnt even notice that. It's like Snyder thought EVERY scene in the movie was EPIC! This is seriously at annoyingly levels.

Also, Lex was a disgrace. Capably acted, but all over the place and never what he should be.

I did enjoy the movie but it is very flawed. I agree with the score 6/10. It is above average thanks to Affleck and Cavill's chemistry and performances. Their supporting cast is wasted thanks to a bunch of convoluted sub-plots and. Gal Gadot even as good as she did as WW, she really is just a cameo for the most part as most of her scenes don't even show her talking much, if at all. Afflek does pull most of the movie himself though as this is more of a Batman movie than a Man of Steel sequel. I think Batman gets more screentime this time around until the last 30 minutes.

So, having read close to a hundred reviews by this point, general concensus seems to be that, while the actors are doing their best, they're just not given enough material to work with. The movie is too busy trying to set up the DC Cinematic Universe, instead of focusing on being a good movie in it's own right.

In summary: Go watch the World's Finest 3-parter from Superman the Animated Series instead:

And then just steam through the DCAU Justice League while you're at it. The DCAU is awesome.

Mangod:
So, having read close to a hundred reviews by this point, general concensus seems to be that, while the actors are doing their best, they're just not given enough material to work with. The movie is too busy trying to set up the DC Cinematic Universe, instead of focusing on being a good movie in it's own right.

In summary: Go watch the World's Finest 3-parter from Superman the Animated Series instead:

And then just steam through the DCAU Justice League while you're at it. The DCAU is awesome.

Warning: The Bat-wank may actually be worse here than in BvS. Still, at least it's coherent.

GestaltEsper:

Mangod:
So, having read close to a hundred reviews by this point, general concensus seems to be that, while the actors are doing their best, they're just not given enough material to work with. The movie is too busy trying to set up the DC Cinematic Universe, instead of focusing on being a good movie in it's own right.

In summary: Go watch the World's Finest 3-parter from Superman the Animated Series instead:

And then just steam through the DCAU Justice League while you're at it. The DCAU is awesome.

Warning: The Bat-wank may actually be worse here than in BvS. Still, at least it's coherent.

True. As compensation, here's Batman getting backhanded!

I didn't hate Batman vs. Superman but I wasn't blown away by it either.

The problem is that so little actually happens in it, and it has a great sense of 'set-up' about it.

Ben Affleck made a pretty good Bruce Wayne and Batman. I didn't like Henry Cavill's Superman in Man of Steel and I didn't like him here (I just don't get a Superman vibe from him.)

Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman didn't really do anything. I can overlook the physique because the fight scenes were okay but she was there to be there, not because she was a needed part of the film.

Zach Snider is the new Michael Bay. At least he tries to tell a story. Unfortunately for everyone, he is really, really bad at it. Not to mention DC has given him the ability to screw with characters we already know. At least JJ had the sense to wave his hands around, yelling "alternate timeline, alternate timeline".

At the end of this, I had the strangest feeling of deja vu. I had to check to make sure my pants were still up, and that Inidie was not on the screen. It thought only Lucas and Spielberg did this to classics.

The worst part for me remains Superman. Even when he's just saving the day by helping people off of burning buildings or rescuing exploding space capsules, he has this look like, "Oh fuck me, more of this shit again." I've never seen a guy who looks like he's only doing this stuff because he thinks he has to but really wishes he could be doing almost anything else.

Also, the whole question of, "Should there BE a superman?" worked great in Watchmen because there was only one Superman. The question of whether or not you need a Superman when the Earth gets attacked by a galactic menace every three weeks is an IDIOTIC question. It's like asking if you really NEED these fire extinguishers in a match and gas factory.

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