Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls III

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Maphysto:
See, to me, Three was the game Two should've been. Two tried to set itself up as a different world/history tied into the events of One, but did it so badly that I just couldn't take it seriously. Like, it kept trying to pretend to be aloof and vague about the fact that it had elements from One's story, but actually couldn't WAIT to tell you all about it. That coupled with some frankly inexplicable decisions (Why the fuck is Ornstein there. Explain it to me, FromSoft.) along with generally poor enemy and level design just made the whole thing feel like a trite attempt to cash in on nostalgia.

Three on the other hand skips the middleman of trying to act coy about continuity and just gives us a competent sequel that moves the plot forward.

Personally I always felt like DS2 was sort of "official fanfiction" in its story because Miyamoto was working on BB instead of DS2 at the time so they had to make do without the head designer. I felt like I was pretty correct on that feeling after finishing DS3 and there were almost no nods towards any plot element that was unique to DS2. There was a giant tree that sometimes dropped Seeds outside Firelink and one of the bosses was a Giant similar to the Giant King in DS2 and that's kind of all I could see.

3 was definitely what 2 should have been i'm with you there. There were no areas that made me want to just kill myself like trying to beat Shrine of Elara (or whatever it was called, the bit directly after the Mirror Knight) with a heavy armour melee build. I think the thing with DS2 was that the design team were coming at it slightly wrong, looking at the game and saying "how can we make this fight hard?" instead of "how can we make this fight fun/interesting whist also challenging?"

Look at Royal Rat Authority as a boss example and Shrine of Elara as a full area example. Easy boss with a few rats that inflict Toxin in a few hits to make it just frustrating as hell and a massive water area that makes your walking speed slower and it's full of magic users who can hit you from the other side of the map.

But yeah I beat DS3 with a Heavy Broadsword +10 and I REALLY wanted to use some boss weapons... It's cool how in theory you can take a weapon you like and beat the game with it all the way through but come on, there's no boss version of a Broadsword that is strictly better than the regular one? (inb4 I missed it like a scrub) Make the upgrade materials super rare even, i'd work for it.

I'm going to wait till go on sale before I pick it up.

I've played Dark Souls 1 & 2 and out of the two I liked DS1 level design more, so I'm happy to hear DS3 similar.

The self referencing is one of my problems with DS3, I know a lot for people got excited that you go back to

When DS3 was announced and before it was revealed to be last one I was thinking that this would probably be the last DS game I buy and even though I do enjoy these games immensely and have been playing 3 constantly I still feel that way.

DS2 gets shit and did do some things badly but I got more of an impression that they were at least trying to do things a bit differently.

The Wykydtron:

Maphysto:
See, to me, Three was the game Two should've been. Two tried to set itself up as a different world/history tied into the events of One, but did it so badly that I just couldn't take it seriously. Like, it kept trying to pretend to be aloof and vague about the fact that it had elements from One's story, but actually couldn't WAIT to tell you all about it. That coupled with some frankly inexplicable decisions (Why the fuck is Ornstein there. Explain it to me, FromSoft.) along with generally poor enemy and level design just made the whole thing feel like a trite attempt to cash in on nostalgia.

Three on the other hand skips the middleman of trying to act coy about continuity and just gives us a competent sequel that moves the plot forward.

Personally I always felt like DS2 was sort of "official fanfiction" in its story because Miyamoto was working on BB instead of DS2 at the time so they had to make do without the head designer. I felt like I was pretty correct on that feeling after finishing DS3 and there were almost no nods towards any plot element that was unique to DS2. There was a giant tree that sometimes dropped Seeds outside Firelink and one of the bosses was a Giant similar to the Giant King in DS2 and that's kind of all I could see.

There's also some references to Lucatiel (you can get her mask from Pickle-Pee and her sword is one of the Transposed weapons) and the Goddess Caitha.

The Wykydtron:
3 was definitely what 2 should have been i'm with you there. There were no areas that made me want to just kill myself like trying to beat Shrine of Elara (or whatever it was called, the bit directly after the Mirror Knight) with a heavy armour melee build. I think the thing with DS2 was that the design team were coming at it slightly wrong, looking at the game and saying "how can we make this fight hard?" instead of "how can we make this fight fun/interesting whist also challenging?"

Look at Royal Rat Authority as a boss example and Shrine of Elara as a full area example. Easy boss with a few rats that inflict Toxin in a few hits to make it just frustrating as hell and a massive water area that makes your walking speed slower and it's full of magic users who can hit you from the other side of the map.

The level/enemy/boss design is easily one of my biggest beefs with DS2. It all felt so phoned in.

"Okay, here's, like, a a big mansion. What, you wanted to explore it? Sorry bro, we just made it a big long hallway with monsters and shit. And most of the monsters are just dudes. But at the end of the hallway, you fight a DRAGON! Won't that be cool?"

Most of the areas were just purely linear paths, with none of the sprawling, inter-connected layouts of 1 and 3. And don't even get me started on how the separate areas were apparently just mashed together at the last minute (like the fact that the Iron Keep exists in impossible space).

And as Yahtzee mentioned, most of the enemies/bosses could basically just be described as "Person In Armor and/or With Weapon." The few really memorable bosses (Flexile Sentry, Demon of Song, and The Rotten to name a few) were way too easy. I feel like DS2 could've had a lot going for it if they'd just gone a little farther with some of their good ideas/designs.

Regarding being unable to find a better weapon than your starting sword - I'm guessing you started as a Knight. And as a Knight, you got a lovely Longsword, the most vanilla member of the Straight Sword category. Well, as it turns out, Straight Swords in general are probably the best weapon category at the moment. Sure, larger weapons do more damage, but they just don't seem to fit into the game mechanics anymore. The faster combat means swinging a massive Ultra Greatsword becomes a very risky proposition. The bigger weapons tend to do more damage, but not enough to justify the drop in speed, and when you factor in the speed, Straight Swords out-DPS them easily. Basically, the balance is kinda fucked right now.

Kitsune Hunter:
Wait a minute, DS2 had level design?.... Really? That's news to me, because it looked to me B team had no idea what they were doing. Just look at the transition from Earthen Peak to Iron Keep, it's nonsensical

Also that ending analogy about the DLC was brilliant

Yes yes yes like all the cool hipsters it's awesome to rag on that particular transition (there are more guys, diversify a bit) and say DS 2 level design sucks, but let me ilustrate yahtzee's point for all of you:

Dark souls 2 levels: abandoned town which splits into several paths with the following enviroments. Path 1: forest with ruined castle OR ruins at sea into pirate cove both leading to a seaside cliff prison/fortress. Path 2: decrepit forest with coloseum into cave system into a quary, leading into a giant windmill/tower filled with poison then leading into a lava covered castle sitting in the caldera of a volcano. Path 3: sewer descent into forgotten tomb into underground corrupted village into corrupted cavern. Path 4: another forest though forest with ruins this time, into underground caverns of an ancient civilization into mining village taken over by spiders and mutants. Now for the endgame paths: Path 5 from path 4 forest into gothic cathedral/castle into caverns with watter into crypt complex. Path 6: from path 4 forest to mansion/mad doctor laboratory to mountaintop dragon nests to ancient lair/sanctuary for dragons. And then the end-game backtrack.

Now compare to Dark souls 3: old graveyard with large cetral tomb that is firelink to gothic cathedral/castle city lothric to abandoned undead vilalge that of course has a gothic cathedral to forest with ruins (to ANOTHER gothic cathedral) to forest with ruins AND swamp to crypt complex (to underwatter lake/more crypt complex) to ANOTHER gothic town+cathedral to path 1: ANOTHER gothic cathedral/palace and also shameless ripoff of dark souls 1 area; path 2: prison complex (to dragon sanctuary) to underground gothic ruins. Backtrack to the first gothic cathdral/town area (lothric) and then (to corrupted garden to carbon copy of abandoned graveyard that the first area was but with no light) to gothic castle to gothic library to endgame area. the parts in () are the optional/secondary areas.

Are you begining to see the problem. Shriek all you want about non-sensical transitions, dark souls 2 rarely repeats itself in architecture and theme. Dark souls 3 on the other hand looks like someone is displeased he can't make more of bloodborne and reverts to gothic cathedral place every 2 seconds.

Oh and to the people complaining about linearity: Dark souls 2 has PATHS you can follow, it has several directions you can travel in (all the directions are a straight line to the end then port to firelink mind you). What does dark souls 3 have? One big giant straight line to travel down with the ocasional 30 minute side room. Oh but the path is all bendy and spiraly now so of course it's not linear anymore ... yeah right.

EDIT: and while I am here, let's shatter something else for you. Namely "dark souls 3 has excelent new boss design! No more dudes in armor!". Oh? have we been playing the same game? Let's go down the list. Gundyr: dude in armor that in phase 2 becomes blob monster; Vordt: dude in armor but but but he's walking like a dog, that's like totaly different guys!; Cursed Greatwood: giant tree with balls you have to pop (ok so wow 3 boses in finaly not a dude in armor); crystal sage: dude in robe; deacons: dudes in robes; abys watchers: dudes in armor; wolnir: giant skeleton in armor; old deamon king: asylum demon but grey; sulyvahn: dude in armor; aldrich: snake; yorhm: giant dude in armor; nameless king: dude in armor riding drake; dancer: dudette in armor on all fours; oceiros: dragon/dude hybrid; gundyr 2.0: dude in armor with no blob transion; Old Dragonslayer Armor: dude in armor; twin princess: dude in armor+dude in robe; Soul of Cinder: dude in armor.

Yeah ... Dark souls 3 is totaly NOT filled with dudes in armor for bosses. I mean they make up the majority but hey ... umm ... they are somewhat different now? (and yeah fine, vordt and the dancer at least have a somewhat differnt move-set than your standard dude in armor, but visualy I feel like I'm watching a mediaval plate armor fashion show with the ocasional body horror boss)

Rozalia1:
Dark Souls 2 better than 3? Well we all have our own opinions, comes off most odd to me but oh well.

Thanatos2k:
I never found any weapon better than the starting saw in Bloodborne either. It was fast, had good reach, and strangely did more damage to everything. Others noticed the phenomenon as well.

Ludwig's Holy Blade 4 lyf.

Ludwig was alternate weapon, for spamming the jump slash. Saw did way higher dps, but leap slash and run with Ludwig was necessary for a bunch of enemies.

Yahztee has a great talent for game critique. I'll have my own feelings about a game but often can't put my finger on it but he always does.

I'm loving Dark Souls 3, first game since Bloodborne that's got me obsessed again, but why doesn't it feel like when I first played Dark Souls? Lack of imagination in the environment. The things I loved most about Dark Souls, firstly it starts you off with a slightly skewed view of all the Western RPG tropes because somehow, the Japanese game perspective just makes it different. Then it twists and warps those tropes (you're not the hero, just another monster), sets you up to fail, tricks you, expects you to look stuff up and share knowledge online. It felt innovative and "new" in gaming (not really but let's say rediscovered after a long absence of bro-shooters).

Enemies like the Titanite demons, the first Kapra demon boss, the Gaping Dragon and the Moonlight Butterfly, complete shocks to me which made me look on with awe and terror. They find that sweet spot of the uncanny valley in design and game mechanics. It makes sense and feels familiar but it doesn't feel quite natural, not what your used to. The level design was amazing, not in shortcuts but in their aesthetics. The frustrating scaffolding of Blight Town only to be rewarded with a poisonous lake and annoying mosquitoes. The lofty air of Anor Londo but terrifying with it's ominous silent halls. The pitch black land of the giants. The anxiety of running the labyrinth of the Catacombs with respawning skeletons making it impossible to keep a track of where you're going. Being sucked into a painting!? The eerie gorges of the Valley of the Drakes and that's basically just a pointless bridge area to link Blight Town to New Londor Ruins. My favourite place is still Ash Lake. Deep, deep, deep underground you find a beach? Like some paradise, yet with a foreboding looming roof sky held up by massive twisted black pillars. For what purpose was it built? And a lone dragon waiting patiently for some one to reach the ends of the earth to find it. It still haunts me.

Darks Souls 2 and 3, and Bloodbourne seem to lack that same newness and surprise. The fact that you can say "... the bit that's like X from another FromSoftware game...." through most of them just points it out to me. I really can't think of anything from Dark Souls 2 or 3 that surprised me? I haven't completed 3 thought so there's still time. To me, all the games following Dark Souls (I only barely attempted Demons Souls but I imagine it feels the same), feel like very large DLC, not new games. Nothing wrong with that, it's deserved every game that's come out.

But I do hope they surprise me again...

You've had the same people many people have had.

Straight Sword and Rapier are overpowered, even to the point where it's affecting peoples PvE experience.

My first playthrough was with a dagger only character, and I experienced a good difficulty curve, if a little too much late in the game. Playing through with an Estoc and Dark Sword, the game simply melts away. I can fell most bosses in under 20 hits, and with a quick weapon like a Rapier, that's really fucking quick.

I've seen quite a few complaints on the Steam forums about how easy they've found the game, and I feel really sorry for those people.

XDSkyFreak:
Yes yes yes like all the cool hipsters it's awesome to rag on that particular transition (there are more guys, diversify a bit) and say DS 2 level design sucks, but let me ilustrate yahtzee's point for all of you:

Dark souls 2 levels: abandoned town which splits into several paths with the following enviroments. Path 1: forest with ruined castle OR ruins at sea into pirate cove both leading to a seaside cliff prison/fortress. Path 2: decrepit forest with coloseum into cave system into a quary, leading into a giant windmill/tower filled with poison then leading into a lava covered castle sitting in the caldera of a volcano. Path 3: sewer descent into forgotten tomb into underground corrupted village into corrupted cavern. Path 4: another forest though forest with ruins this time, into underground caverns of an ancient civilization into mining village taken over by spiders and mutants. Now for the endgame paths: Path 5 from path 4 forest into gothic cathedral/castle into caverns with watter into crypt complex. Path 6: from path 4 forest to mansion/mad doctor laboratory to mountaintop dragon nests to ancient lair/sanctuary for dragons. And then the end-game backtrack.

Now compare to Dark souls 3: old graveyard with large cetral tomb that is firelink to gothic cathedral/castle city lothric to abandoned undead vilalge that of course has a gothic cathedral to forest with ruins (to ANOTHER gothic cathedral) to forest with ruins AND swamp to crypt complex (to underwatter lake/more crypt complex) to ANOTHER gothic town+cathedral to path 1: ANOTHER gothic cathedral/palace and also shameless ripoff of dark souls 1 area; path 2: prison complex (to dragon sanctuary) to underground gothic ruins. Backtrack to the first gothic cathdral/town area (lothric) and then (to corrupted garden to carbon copy of abandoned graveyard that the first area was but with no light) to gothic castle to gothic library to endgame area. the parts in () are the optional/secondary areas.

Are you begining to see the problem. Shriek all you want about non-sensical transitions, dark souls 2 rarely repeats itself in architecture and theme. Dark souls 3 on the other hand looks like someone is displeased he can't make more of bloodborne and reverts to gothic cathedral place every 2 seconds.

Oh and to the people complaining about linearity: Dark souls 2 has PATHS you can follow, it has several directions you can travel in (all the directions are a straight line to the end then port to firelink mind you). What does dark souls 3 have? One big giant straight line to travel down with the ocasional 30 minute side room. Oh but the path is all bendy and spiraly now so of course it's not linear anymore ... yeah right.

EDIT: and while I am here, let's shatter something else for you. Namely "dark souls 3 has excelent new boss design! No more dudes in armor!". Oh? have we been playing the same game? Let's go down the list. Gundyr: dude in armor that in phase 2 becomes blob monster; Vordt: dude in armor but but but he's walking like a dog, that's like totaly different guys!; Cursed Greatwood: giant tree with balls you have to pop (ok so wow 3 boses in finaly not a dude in armor); crystal sage: dude in robe; deacons: dudes in robes; abys watchers: dudes in armor; wolnir: giant skeleton in armor; old deamon king: asylum demon but grey; sulyvahn: dude in armor; aldrich: snake; yorhm: giant dude in armor; nameless king: dude in armor riding drake; dancer: dudette in armor on all fours; oceiros: dragon/dude hybrid; gundyr 2.0: dude in armor with no blob transion; Old Dragonslayer Armor: dude in armor; twin princess: dude in armor+dude in robe; Soul of Cinder: dude in armor.

Yeah ... Dark souls 3 is totaly NOT filled with dudes in armor for bosses. I mean they make up the majority but hey ... umm ... they are somewhat different now? (and yeah fine, vordt and the dancer at least have a somewhat differnt move-set than your standard dude in armor, but visualy I feel like I'm watching a mediaval plate armor fashion show with the ocasional body horror boss)

OK I'll bite any excuse to tear DS2 a new arsehole is fine by me

First off, DS2 didn't have many open paths as you may think, you either went to Forest of Lost Giants or Tower of Flame first which both led to Lost Bastille. You can only open the other areas by talking to a certain person (cleric in ToF) or get particular items to unpetrify an NPC and survive the fall down the sewer, so much for openness. And once you get all the great souls, you open the Shrine of Winter, all to bypass a pile of rubble to get to Drangleic Castle. Yep, kill four powerful beings just to get round a pile of rubble that someone could easily climb over, well done B Team, well done. DS2 may have better level variety, it's just a shame that the areas had no atmosphere and were just bland and boring. Most of DS3 architecture may be Gothic, but they where still far more interesting to explore than DS2's levels. Also shameless ripoff of DS1? You do know that DS3 is set in the same world as DS1 many years later so the fact that it included areas like Anor Londo was intentional right? Plus the Untended Graves is the same as the first area is due to the lore, it's believed UG is the real Firelink Shrine and the one you start off in is a fake or an illusion. I also noticed you called an area in DS3 a ripoff and don't bring up that the Gutter from DS2 is a ripoff of Blighttown and a boring one at that.

On the subject of bosses, "dudes in armour" aren't really the problem its movesets that are the problem. Ds3 does have dudes in armour bosses but their movesets kept things interesting. Compared to DS3, DS2's dudes in armour all have the same moves, broken hitboxes and all or at least some variation of moves such as an overhead sword slam, a move that closes the gap and simple 2-3 sword slashes and that's it, that's all they're capable of.

XDSkyFreak:

Kitsune Hunter:

OK I'll bite any excuse to tear DS2 a new arsehole is fine by me

First off, DS2 didn't have many open paths as you may think, you either went to Forest of Lost Giants or Tower of Flame first which both led to Lost Bastille. You can only open the other areas by talking to a certain person (cleric in ToF) or get particular items to unpetrify an NPC and survive the fall down the sewer, so much for openness.

well mate I just counted 3 areas that are accesible right from the start with no items in DS 3 (forest, ToF and sewer and yes you can go to the rotten as your first path if you so choose, I've done it on at least one playthrough), that's exactly triple what DS 3 gives you. So much for openness indeed. Also: way to miss the point. Yes, some paths are locked AT FIRST, but after exploring a single area of the game (ToF), you now have acces to: Bastile path, Iron Keep path, Black Gulch path. After exploring 1.25 areas (ToF and the first quarter of the Forest) you now have acces to all the 4 main paths (provided you can buy the branch of yore of melentia, which you should be easily capable of). What does dark souls 3 have in comparison? ONE linear path that only branches out once (with the branches ending after one or two very short areas) and the ocasional 30 minute side-area if you bother going to it or even know how to acces it. So yes, Dark souls 2 is objectively provable to be more open than dark souls 3 by simple virtue of actualy offering you a choice of paths you can actualy follow to a different ending location (not to mention 3 different starting areas), as oposed to the final fantasy 13 straight line through gothic setpiece after gothic setpiece that is Dark souls 3's singular path.

And once you get all the great souls, you open the Shrine of Winter, all to bypass a pile of rubble to get to Drangleic Castle. Yep, kill four powerful beings just to get round a pile of rubble that someone could easily climb over, well done B Team, well done.

ah the second popular transition to bash on, I knew you had it in you. Way to miss the point of yahtzee's critique yet again though.

DS2 may have better level variety

So you basicaly concede the point then?

it's just a shame that the areas had no atmosphere and were just bland and boring.

All of these beeing subjective qualifiers when we are discusing the simple objective fact that DS 2 has way less repetition in eviroment design than DS 3.

Most of DS3 architecture may be Gothic, but they where still far more interesting to explore than DS2's levels.

Pile on with the subjectivity when that wasn't the point. Also, no, at least for my money they are not more interesting to explore since once you've walked down spooky gothic hallway #137 and down spooky gothic roof #501 you've walked down all of them.

Also shameless ripoff of DS1? You do know that DS3 is set in the same world as DS1 many years later

so is in fact Dark Souls 2 if you've ever bothered to follow it's story. DS 3 simply takes what was a cool concept from DS 2 (the ever repeating cycle of kingdoms rising and falling, all following the same beats but with different visual incarnations) and retardifies it by simply trying to cater to nostalgia goggled fuckwits that are alergic to anyone trying anything new and original with a setting and not simply paroting out incarnation 100 of game 1.

so the fact that it included areas like Anor Londo was intentional right?

ah so it was intentional not accidental lazyness. Especialy since they go agains their own established series cannon from DS 2. And that excuses it how?

Plus the Untended Graves is the same as the first area is due to the lore, it's believed UG is the real Firelink Shrine and the one you start off in is a fake or an illusion.

... so you agree with me that it's a ripoff of the first area, yet another sign of lazyness in the level design department ... and then claim "oh no, it's ok to be lazy cause lore". For the record they did it in bloodborne before and it was lazy then at it is now, but at least bloodborne clearly established The Hunter's !!!DREAM!!! was not a real place, while the so called "firelink is just an illusion" theory was just an asspull by fans to justify the lazyness of Untended Graves. Lore does not excuse lazyness.

I also noticed you called an area in DS3 and ripoff and don't bring that the Gutter from DS2 is a ripoff and a boring one at that.

ripoff of what? Blight town like every unoriginal fuck loves to call it? Tell me again how an underground shanty town built over a pit is a ripoff of a poisoned aqueduct descent into a swamp beyond the simple fact that if you fall you die. Maybe look beyond the "zomg posion statues" (which in itself is stupid because blight-town had archers shooting you) and realise that while they may share a certain theme (the theme of unwanted corruption specificaly) the areas are not the same in any way other than superficialy in the visual department. A ripoff of blight town? Even if I was charitable to consider sharing the same theme as "ripoff" material, Gutter still only qualifies as a reimagining. But let's apply your stellar logic to Dark Souls 3 cause I've just found contender number 3 for lack of originality in Dark Souls 3: Farron's Keep. A poisonous swamp with a bridge above it. Sounds alot like a poisonous swamp with an aqueduct above it, doesn't it? If the gutter is a ripoff for sharing a theme with Blight Town, that Farron's Keep is also a ripoff for sharing the geography and at least 50% of the mechanics in Blight-Town. Consistent you are not in your critique.

And may I take a moment to point out your hypocrisy here? What do I call a ripoff? Carbon copied areas from previous or the same title. But it's ok cause lore in your book. What do you call a ripoff? An area that shares a theme with an area of a previous game but otherwise can at worst be called a reimagining. But now it's the devil cause dark souls 2. Nice going slick.

On the subject of bosses, "dudes in armour" aren't really the problem its movesets that are the problem. Ds3 does have dudes in armour bosses but their movesets kept things interesting. Compared to DS3, DS2's dudes in armour all have the same moves, broken hitboxes and all or at least some variation of moves such as an overhead sword slam, a move that closes the gap and simple 2-3 sword slashes and that's it, that's all they're capable of.

Ah yes the oh so interesting move-sets of DS 3's dudes in armor. Gap closing attack/charge, sword combo that *gasp originality* extends to 6 hits cause bloodborne did it (well dark souls 1 gwyn did it too, but let's disregard that), and some form of slam aoe or cleave. And even Vordt and the dancer are guilty of that. Yep I can totaly see how these movesets are interesting. Oh but now some of them have spastic bloodborne animations to go with them, so it's all good, it totaly fits the dark souls feel. DS 3's dudes in armor have nothing above DS 2's beyond beeing artificialy sped up because again, someone was sad they weren't making bloodborne. And I've beaten the game 3 times at the time of writing this, I know those movesets inside out.

If you're not going to be mature about this, I'm just not going to waste my time. DS2 has problems and I just want to make this clear as possible, I NEVER SAID DS3 WAS PERFECT!

Kitsune Hunter:

If you're not going to be mature about this, I'm just not going to waste my time. DS2 has problems and I just want to make this clear as possible, I NEVER SAID DS3 WAS PERFECT!

:)) ah yes not beeing mature because I used profanities? Oh as if that ever invalidated any argument I made. Way to not bother though after someone points out your wrong arguments. Eh, I forgot how touchy this place became about "unsafe words", oh noes what will we do if someone says fuck.

And yes I am sure an imature person writes long explanations using facts to support his arguments. Totaly the same mindset. IF you can't handle someone pointing out you are wrong then you won't be missed in this discusion. Oh and nowhere in my post will you ever find me acusing you of saying DS 3 is perfect. Way to put words in my mouth.

EDIT: and also, nowhere in my post have I ever said DS 2 is without problems. I was simply pointing out that it is superior to Dark Souls 3 in terms of area variety and openness, and that the oh so praised return to good boss design of Dark souls 3 is just a tad bit overrated. With arguments based on facts and observable information, not "but this to me feels wrong" like you did.

XDSkyFreak:

Kitsune Hunter:

If you're not going to be mature about this, I'm just not going to waste my time. DS2 has problems and I just want to make this clear as possible, I NEVER SAID DS3 WAS PERFECT!

:)) ah yes not beeing mature because I used profanities? Oh as if that ever invalidated any argument I made. Way to not bother though after someone points out your wrong arguments. Eh, I forgot how touchy this place became about "unsafe words", oh noes what will we do if someone says fuck.

And yes I am sure an imature person writes long explanations using facts to support his arguments. Totaly the same mindset. IF you can't handle someone pointing out you are wrong then you won't be missed in this discusion. Oh and nowhere in my post will you ever find me acusing you of saying DS 3 is perfect. Way to put words in my mouth.

EDIT: and also, nowhere in my post have I ever said DS 2 is without problems. I was simply pointing out that it is superior to Dark Souls 3 in terms of area variety and openness, and that the oh so praised return to good boss design of Dark souls 3 is just a tad bit overrated. With arguments based on facts and observable information, not "but this to me feels wrong" like you did.

Profanities? You insulted me by calling me a hipster and in your own words "an unoriginal fuck", just because I don't like DS2.

XDSkyFreak:
Yes yes yes like all the cool hipsters it's awesome to rag on that particular transition (there are more guys, diversify a bit) and say DS 2 level design sucks, but let me ilustrate yahtzee's point for all of you:

XDSkyFreak:
ripoff of what? Blight town like every unoriginal fuck loves to call it?

Why should I continue this discussion any further if this is the kind of response I expect to see. Your warming was well deserved.

Kitsune Hunter:

Profanities? You insulted me by calling me a hipster and in your own words "an unoriginal fuck", just because I don't like DS2.

Why should I continue this discussion any further if this is the kind of response I expect to see. Your warming was well deserved.

1) oh wow hipster is an insult these days? Ok, good to know, I got to use it more often.

2) The "unoriginal fuck" coment wasn't directed at you specificaly, but hey if you feel like one go right ahead man. Also, no you are not an unoriginal fuck for not liking dark souls, clue is in the sentence I used it in. It was refering to people who for some baffling reason keep saying the gutter is a ripoff of blight-town when besides a thematic inspiration the 2 areas not even remotely alike.

But hey, DS 2 is the popular one to hate and DS 3 has myazaki back so it must be perfect even though it's the most phoned in by the numbers unoriginal entry to the souls series by far and even Dark Souls 2 stands head and shoulders above it by simple virtue of actualy having tried to be a game worthy of the name instead of a regurgitation and ocasionaly plagiarism of DS 1 by way of bloodborne level design and combat (cause that was such a smart ideea ... bringing the speed and agresion of bloodborne in the much slower methodical souls, thus rendering everything but the straight swords and rapier so much useless inventory cluter) with probably the shortest lenght and most linear path these games have ever had.

C14N:
Was Yahtzee's remark at the beginning about Jimmy Neutral the Sexless Gamer on Youtube about a specific person? Sounded oddly personal at least.

A riff on Jimmy Neutron, perhaps. To me it sounded pretty broad a statement, I don't think it was directed at any single person.

The reason weapons are worse than your starting one is because you upgraded your starting one.

You prefer the level design in ds2? What level design? The 4 straight lines followed by a 5th straight line?
https://youtu.be/UScsme8didI?t=656
"This isn't level design"

The magic meter is a return from Demons' Souls because the limited castings of ds1 didn't work and ds2 didn't realize that because ds2 didn't fix anything.

Kitsune Hunter:
Wait a minute, DS2 had level design?.... Really? That's news to me, because it looked to me B team had no idea what they were doing. Just look at the transition from Earthen Peak to Iron Keep, it's nonsensical

Also that ending analogy about the DLC was brilliant

That's exactly what I thought the instant he said that line: "Dark Souls 2 had better level design!? What! The game where you can go through an underground tunnel and end up at the top of a raining mountain castle?". The enviroments looked nice, and I totally get what he means by the abundance of cathedrals and other religious paraphernalia - there's a shrine every 5ft in Lothric Castle - but the third game looks and fits together better in my opinion.

OT

I entered this series properly from Bloodborne after a disastarous first impression of Dark Souls, and when I was going through Scholar of the First Sin I was thinking "If you took this world and combined with the Gothic and highly confusing flair of Bloodborne, I'd be fucking set."

And so they did!

And so I was!

Now I'm off to beat up the Soul of Cinder and wonder what the fuck has been going on throughout the entire game....

Also I find it interesting how Yatzhee and many others wish they could use the insane boss weapons in place of their default gear, as if the insane stuff doesn't come with bonus attacks that makes up for a slight decrease in basic damage. I also find it interesting that people like those oversized monstrosities in place of a realistic designed sword, but that's just my personal fondness for pseudo-realism talking.

Dragonlayer:

That's exactly what I thought the instant he said that line: "Dark Souls 2 had better level design!? What! The game where you can go through an underground tunnel and end up at the top of a raining mountain castle?". The enviroments looked nice, and I totally get what he means by the abundance of cathedrals and other religious paraphernalia - there's a shrine every 5ft in Lothric Castle - but the third game looks and fits together better in my opinion.

Compare the interconnectivity of areas between the three games:

DS1: http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6053/6239138076_8c781b5e5d_b.jpg
DS2: http://darksouls2.wdfiles.com/local--files/areas/DS2map2.jpg
DS3: http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Dark-Souls-3/Dks3-progress_map.jpg

In DS3, while the internal complexity of the areas is increased, and other areas are often seen in the distance in a geographically correct position, the actual overall structure of the areas doesn't have a single loop in it, and the side-branches are only one area long. Coupled with the fact that your progression is heavily gated (no Large Titanite Shards until the Catacombs, no Chunks until Lothric Castle, and God help you if you don't find the coals or the umbral ashes), and the only option to sequence break is to beat a late-game boss earlier than you're supposed to - only to unlock the late-game main path. Compare that to DS2, where you could follow the easiest path(s) towards the Lost Bastille, or progress towards Iron Keep, or choose to go to the Gutter or Tseldora for late-game upgrade materials at the cost of increased difficulty. And the tangled ball of paths that is the first half of DS1 blows both out of the water.

tl;dr: The amount of possible paths the player can progress through the levels is constantly decreasing from DS1 to DS3.

wass12:

Dragonlayer:

That's exactly what I thought the instant he said that line: "Dark Souls 2 had better level design!? What! The game where you can go through an underground tunnel and end up at the top of a raining mountain castle?". The enviroments looked nice, and I totally get what he means by the abundance of cathedrals and other religious paraphernalia - there's a shrine every 5ft in Lothric Castle - but the third game looks and fits together better in my opinion.

Compare the interconnectivity of areas between the three games:

DS1: http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6053/6239138076_8c781b5e5d_b.jpg
DS2: http://darksouls2.wdfiles.com/local--files/areas/DS2map2.jpg
DS3: http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Dark-Souls-3/Dks3-progress_map.jpg

In DS3, while the internal complexity of the areas is increased, and other areas are often seen in the distance in a geographically correct position, the actual overall structure of the areas doesn't have a single loop in it, and the side-branches are only one area long. Coupled with the fact that your progression is heavily gated (no Large Titanite Shards until the Catacombs, no Chunks until Lothric Castle, and God help you if you don't find the coals or the umbral ashes), and the only option to sequence break is to beat a late-game boss earlier than you're supposed to - only to unlock the late-game main path. Compare that to DS2, where you could follow the easiest path(s) towards the Lost Bastille, or progress towards Iron Keep, or choose to go to the Gutter or Tseldora for late-game upgrade materials at the cost of increased difficulty. And the tangled ball of paths that is the first half of DS1 blows both out of the water.

tl;dr: The amount of possible paths the player can progress through the levels is constantly decreasing from DS1 to DS3.

Hmmm, I'll concede you that as I did notice the progression felt more linear and directed then Souls 2, but I stand by my stated opinion: I prefer the third game's method over the second (didn't play the original long enough to get lost in a maze). While one can make the argument that the earlier game's greater interconnectivity enables you to choose new paths should you reach a particularly difficult spot, the areas in Souls 3 are big enough that they loop around on themselves several times over, allowing you to circumvent the original troublespot. Not to mention that the diversity of locations in the second game ruins all sense of cohesion to me - I understand that Drangleic seems to be the centre of some manner of time buggery, with different places from different eras merging together, but it just doesn't feel right.

Normalguycap: And you are? Sorry for not being able quote you properly due to your post warning, but honestly, if you're going to insult me, at least be subtle about it. Although putting Demon's Souls level design on the same level as DS2, now that's insulting

Dragonlayer:

Hmmm, I'll concede you that as I did notice the progression felt more linear and directed then Souls 2, but I stand by my stated opinion: I prefer the third game's method over the second (didn't play the original long enough to get lost in a maze). While one can make the argument that the earlier game's greater interconnectivity enables you to choose new paths should you reach a particularly difficult spot, the areas in Souls 3 are big enough that they loop around on themselves several times over, allowing you to circumvent the original troublespot. Not to mention that the diversity of locations in the second game ruins all sense of cohesion to me - I understand that Drangleic seems to be the centre of some manner of time buggery, with different places from different eras merging together, but it just doesn't feel right.

I'm not talking about the looped and branching paths within areas (of which DS3 has plenty), but the looped and branching paths BETWEEN areas, of which DS3 has practically none. Sure, Undead Settlement has a myriad interwoven paths, but none of them allows you to descend into Irithyll Dungeon, even though it's right below the Settlement. Sure, you can see the Farron Keep section of the High Road from the Settlement's starting bonfire, but without an actual shortcut between the two segments, it's just window dressing, an illusion of interconnectedness for an actually linear level structure. (Again, here I'm talking how the levels connect to each other, now their internal structure.)

Also, unlike DS1 and DS3, which are 1:1 depictions of Lordran and Lothric, DS2 aims to represent the entire continent of Drangleic, with the connecting sections between levels standing in for much longer, but uneventful journeys.

I too, aim to be Dark Fantasy Robocop.

Something about how he said he couldn't find anything better than the longsword made me think he saw the D scaling on everything and never quite realized you could imbue to change scaling.

It also means he played through the game as an r1 spamming spaz. And as an early game pvp'r I can tell you that long sword, while a quality weapon, is far less good than he seems to think. Strength weapons, despite his complaining about their slowness, wreck the shit out of everything if you are smart enough to use them.

I've got the pale tongues of 99 r1 longsword spammers in my inventory and their gray matter on my great club as proof of this.

Piecewise:
Something about how he said he couldn't find anything better than the longsword made me think he saw the D scaling on everything and never quite realized you could imbue to change scaling.

It also means he played through the game as an r1 spamming spaz. And as an early game pvp'r I can tell you that long sword, while a quality weapon, is far less good than he seems to think. Strength weapons, despite his complaining about their slowness, wreck the shit out of everything if you are smart enough to use them.

I've got the pale tongues of 99 r1 longsword spammers in my inventory and their gray matter on my great club as proof of this.

Dark Souls PVP is mostly skill based, and a more skilled player can almost always overcome a weaker player's gear advantage. That said, the consensus in the community is that straight swords are a massive advantage because of their versatility, low requirements and high DPS. Especially in PVE, where stunlocking is king.

I actually LOVE the things Yahtzee dislikes regarding this game: the medieval theme is consistent with the narrative, the easiness allows for careful newbies like myself (Knight set) and aggressive newbies like Arin of Game Grumps (Pyromancer set) to go through swimmingly for the first few chapters, and the similarities to Dark Souls I give it a "see for yourself" kind of design that explains the story through what happens (i.e. the first boss, the first dragon, and the "release the hounds!" moment).

Jeff Loper:
I am so using that quote about a trump oR Clinton presidency.

The question is, what would a Bernie presidency be like in this context? The demons, monsters, and undead all joining in a circle and singing "Kumbaya" like in the ending of Ocarina of Time?

Xman490:
I actually LOVE the things Yahtzee dislikes regarding this game: the medieval theme is consistent with the narrative, the easiness allows for careful newbies like myself (Knight set) and aggressive newbies like Arin of Game Grumps (Pyromancer set) to go through swimmingly for the first few chapters, and the similarities to Dark Souls I give it a "see for yourself" kind of design that explains the story through what happens (i.e. the first boss, the first dragon, and the "release the hounds!" moment).

Jeff Loper:
I am so using that quote about a trump oR Clinton presidency.

The question is, what would a Bernie presidency be like in this context? The demons, monsters, and undead all joining in a circle and singing "Kumbaya" like in the ending of Ocarina of Time?

I kind of agree. It makes sense for me that Lords of Cinder would mostly be living in spectacular castles in varying levels of decay unlike the Gods (or Godlike beings) in DS1 and I for one didn't find it easy at all to begin with.

I think people who didn't play Bloodborne and are used to the cautious wait for an opening tactics in DS1 actually might have done worse than people with less experience. I found DS2 extremely easy in comparison, killing maybe half the bosses on my first attempt but in DS3 I died at least once to all but one of them (Oceiros fyi) but never felt completely stuck.

To be fair, the Broadsword is better. At least for me.

krebons12:
So is Siegmeyer an unkindled in Dark Souls 3? Because he died in the Ash Lake last I remember.

disregard this, I am an idiot.

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