Upgradable Consoles are Just PCs for Peasants

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tippy2k2:
I'll say the exact same thing you did except less professionally

The second Upgradable Consoles become the norm is the second I...*Sigh.....join the PC crowd

I feel dirty just saying that but why in the hell would I want all of the negatives that PCs have but none of the positives?

It's the good kind of dirty feeling though.
Join uuuussss.

This said, I expect upgradable consoles will be a more user friendly affair.

Picture this.
A more compartmentalized internal construction allowing for parts to be slotted in and out as easily as a hard drive on a 360, albeit within a larger cover.
Imagine lifting your outer cover and seeing three sealed boxes latched on to a larger box.
One for hard drive, one for cpu and ram then one for graphics.
A single port beneath them that they slot firmly in to which connects the specified part to the motherboard and in turn provides power.
They could even be colour coordinated AND use shaped ports to ensure one doesn't try to plug a hard drive into a graphics card slot, etc.
Power supply remains external.
Sound isn't something you'd really need to upgrade in any way other than software.
Hell, if they made self contained dvd/blu ray drives those could be replaced by home users instead of having to find a techie or send it back to the manufacturer.
Upgrading, as infrequently as it would happen, would be a process as difficult as that which was comparable to changing a nintendo cartridge.

I remember when microsoft first released the xbox there was talk like this of upgradable machines.
The Hard drive back on the 360 was one of the things which evolved out of that thought process and remember how easy it was to deal with that.

As to graphical options, it would be something that the programmers had to consider but not the user.
All that would happen is the console would check its connected components and set itself to the right options for said machine.
Given that the programmers would have a very limited range of components to consider when setting their options, while it would add work to the process it wouldn't be anywhere near as complex as the variables they have to consider for the pc market.

That isn't to say I wouldn't like to see more people enjoying the glory of PC gaming, just that I think if any serious consideration is given to upgradable consoles by the manufacturers of the moment, primary concern will be ease of implementation by end users.

Madmatty:
Upgrades, updates, install times, all these things are slowly defeating the purpose of consoles am I right?

You have a point.

But Since the 4 Meg Expansion pack in the N64, we've known some upgrades on a console can be fun additions at a reasonable price.

What irks me now is that, rather than a pack I add to my XB1, I'd have to buy a whole other one. That is a fail.

MythicMatt:
Upgradable consoles... Are we talking "Mega Drive/Genesis" style, "Nintendo 64/Gamecube" style or "Actual PC" style.
Because only one of those is decent as a concept, and even then not really comparable to what it's imitating. Unless parts become interchangable between consoles and PCs. By which point, you need to decide which is more worth the money [which will usually be the PC, because there's always something to replace or upgrade].

Higgs303:
external GPU

Whoa, wait. Those are actual things? How? Why?

Laptops. They require more work to upgrade than desktop PCs (lots of people can build PCs on their own; but very few can with laptops), so the easiest solution is external upgrades and adapters.

RaikuFA:
There's just one huge issue: PC gatekeeping. It seems PC users LOVE to look down on anyone who wants to get into PC gaming but isn't tech savvy.

Case in point: my computer has been broken for a year and a half. Why can't I get it fixed? Cause I don't know what's wrong and the only guy who'll look at it wants $200 just to see what's wrong.

Where have you been going?
Because where i use to lurk/discuss that kind of behaviour is frowned upon and if you present your doubts or problems clearly you will find someone willing to lend a hand.

Considering the guy I went to had a business that was fixing PC's, I think it's safe to say he wasn't doing it for free. But $200 for just a diagnostic is outrageous.

He's ripping you off, plain and simple.

Upgradeable consoles runs entirely counter intuitive to the lone reason I have fallen back in love with consoles...

I
Just
Want
To
Play
Video
Games

deadish:
I tried asking about computer parts and shit on a computer forum once. No one was willing to explain anything. They just keep asking me for my price range ...

I'm assuming because your question was vague. When building a PC one important step is your budget or else everyone in that forum would be naming parts that would make you end up with a 10.000$ PC.
If you didn't told them how much were you planning to spend eventually they would ignore you or take you for a troll looking to make them waste time.

Gatlank:

RaikuFA:
There's just one huge issue: PC gatekeeping. It seems PC users LOVE to look down on anyone who wants to get into PC gaming but isn't tech savvy.

Case in point: my computer has been broken for a year and a half. Why can't I get it fixed? Cause I don't know what's wrong and the only guy who'll look at it wants $200 just to see what's wrong.

Where have you been going?
Because where i use to lurk/discuss that kind of behaviour is frowned upon and if you present your doubts or problems clearly you will find someone willing to lend a hand.

Considering the guy I went to had a business that was fixing PC's, I think it's safe to say he wasn't doing it for free. But $200 for just a diagnostic is outrageous.

He's ripping you off, plain and simple.

Exactly. That's why I didn't pay and refuse to pay.

KaraFang:

Rebel_Raven:
Right, coz I want what ever upgrade I get for my console to be obsolete in months, cost as much as a console, and so many other flaws, and I've got to worry if my console can play the latest games at full power or not. No thanks.

I'll leave that to the

Anywho, the article makes sense.

Problem is, that I don't think you're going to have long until, as a console owner, the "optional" upgrade very quicky becomes a required upgrade...

Oh, I'm sure that initially sony's "games will be made for PS4 1st with Neo enhancements 2nd" will hold true. Same for when they do and nail down the Xbox1 upgrade as well.

And theennnn.... the game developers will be "yeah, no, this game WILL need a Neo only, cause we can't DO this game with the power the PS4 provides." and Sony will just go "well, we tried purchasers and loyal fans.... now go buy a neo."

Unless they go the full PC route of giving console owners a full 100% employed settings screen to downgrade resolution etc... but then, buy a PC? Cause... yeah...

Well, like the article said, it's already happening. There's at least 1 game out there that will only work on the new 3ds and not the old 3ds.
Only a matter of time before it's more wide spread. But then again it's still somewhat reminiscent of new consoles coming out. Upgradeable consoles would just speed the process up to probably yearly vs every 4 years or so.

JUMBO PALACE:

Rebel_Raven:
Right, coz I want what ever upgrade I get for my console to be obsolete in months, cost as much as a console, and so many other flaws, and I've got to worry if my console can play the latest games at full power or not. No thanks.

Totally. Instead, you can buy a system that's years into obsolescence upon release, doesn't allow mods or personalization, has a fee for multiplayer, and you have to be stuck with for however long the manufacturer decides to keep the current gen going as technology pushes further and further forward. Don't worry though, you'll never have to consider whether or not you can run the game at max settings. You get one option, low-medium at whatever resolution and fps the developer has decided for you.

That is the point of a PC. You don't have to be held hostage by whatever decisions Microsoft or Sony think is best for you. No one asked for these updated consoles, it just screws over customers who have already bought one.

And I admit, I'm playing devil's advocate a little. I'm sure your statement above was tongue in cheek (I hope. Consoles are a great option for a lot of people who can't afford the (marginally) higher cost of a PC or don't have the interest or desire to make that their primary platform. I understand that, but it does make me a little smug when I see console manufacturers basically turning their products into mini-PCs. You could just skip the BS and buy a PC and be done with it at this point.

Also, I would love to finally see what this 4k PS4 is all about. Unless they got the Flash to run into the future and bring them back GPUs that can support 4k resolution reliably, that are affordable, there's no way they mean games at 4k unless these consoles are coming with an extreme price premium. Maybe video playback only?

Edit: There seems to be this opinion that to be able to compare your hardware to the game requirements is this complicated and technical art in which you need to simultaneously do calculus and read the tea leaves for signs from the PC gods. If you can remember what Graphics card, processor, and how much RAM you have, you're essentially done. Plus, system requirements are usually VAST. Minimum is typically a card from years and years ago and recommended might be from a few years ago to the most recent offerings. PC gaming has become so accessible and easy. If you build a PC with a new-ish GPU and processor you won't have to check system requirements. You PC will play whatever it is you want to play. The only reason to get anal and uppity about it is if you need to be that guy with top end hardware running 3 1440p monitors at 100+ fps. Actually, even then you won't have to worry about it because you know your hardware is top of the line. SO unless you build a PC and leave the GPU in there for 10 years, you're good.

Kinda sorta tongue in cheek. Mostly joking, though. I just am not a huge fan of pc gaming, but I recognize it's virtues, and have some envy. I've tried it off, and on, honestly. Had enough bad experiences to move on. My laptop's too weak to play minecraft. Torchlight had display issues. Some MMOs like Warframe were just too messy to mess with. Granted I'm on a laptop, here, and it's not an alienware or something like that.

With the way graphics are jumping, and the demands seem to be going to not play PC games at console levels it's bothersome.
Have they made universal GPUs, or are there still some divisions like games that will only work on AMC, or Nvidia?

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Gatlank:

deadish:
I tried asking about computer parts and shit on a computer forum once. No one was willing to explain anything. They just keep asking me for my price range ...

I'm assuming because your question was vague. When building a PC one important step is your budget or else everyone in that forum would be naming parts that would make you end up with a 10.000$ PC.
If you didn't told them how much were you planning to spend eventually they would ignore you or take you for a troll looking to make them waste time.

I was not looking for a build, I was looking for information. A run down of the general structure of PC parts and important characteristics was what I was looking for - even pointing me to the relevant websites would have helped.

Parts are useless, I don't live the in the US. Part availability and price will vary. I wanted to make my own decisions with regards to cost/benefit.

i for one welcome our new upgradable console overloads. mainly because if it pushing people to PC then maybe certain developers and publishers will get their heads out of their asses and remember who the master race is (not naming any names, microsoft and warner bros)

And now introducing, The Sony Steambox. Just as pointless as Valve's Steambox, but its made by Sony so PS4 games only.

Maybe when consoles are rebranded to bare bones PCs, we will start getting decent console ports.

Rebel_Raven:
With the way graphics are jumping, and the demands seem to be going to not play PC games at console levels it's bothersome.
Have they made universal GPUs, or are there still some divisions like games that will only work on AMC, or Nvidia?

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Hypothetically, comparable AMD and Nvidia video cards should run games about equally well. And the manufacturers try to play leap frog with one another, so neither is in the lead for long.

Realistically, though, there's something of a trend for games to favor one or the other (as apparently happened with The Witcher 3 and Tomb Raider), though often its only apparent with proprietary software that has to do a lot of calculations, like hair and certain kinds of physics.

And (while I may be biased)- my sense is that Nvidia has been winning this war for a while. Occasionally AMD wins on price, especially where options that integrate graphics and CPU on a single chip are concerned, but Nvidia tends to be cooler, faster, more stable-ly, and with lower power demands.

Still, I haven't heard of a game that out-and-out refused to run on one or the other, beyond regular system requirements, in quite some time.

As far as a "futureproof" PC goes, I do think it's possible; I even think I've mostly succeeded for about seven years. But I did replace my video card and add some more memory at some point, and at 2.93GHz, my CPU is no longer quite up to the newest and shiniest. Still, it's had a pretty good run.

Callate:
And (while I may be biased)- my sense is that Nvidia has been winning this war for a while. Occasionally AMD wins on price, especially where options that integrate graphics and CPU on a single chip are concerned, but Nvidia tends to be cooler, faster, more stable-ly, and with lower power demands.

Lifelong nVidia owner here, and I must admit that while performance-per-watt superiority has long been Green Goblin's unquestionable advantage, AMD is already loading its gun with the silver bullet that goes by the name of Polaris 10 -- a rather impressive architecture that manages to beat the competition on cost-efficiency by a wide margin.

And as for "stability"... It's possible that having several infamous design failures and faking upcoming boards multiple times, while easily forgiven and forgotten by the mainstream user base, doesn't make a good impression on the corporate customers. (One can also bring up serious driver stability issues as recent as the 364.XX versions, but those things come and go for both parties.)

Also, allegedly, AMD has been pricing their chips much more competitively for the console market. And now this strategy is going to be extended to the desktop starting with the R9 4XX series. For the first time since my first GPU, the Riva TNT, I'm prepared to abandon the green ship.

===//===

ffronw:

The idea of upgrading a console sounds good at first, but the reality is that it might hurt consoles more than it will help.

I doubt consoles will move to modular design -- historically modular upgrades hurt more than they helped, but the "next gen" release gaps may be shortened by making new hardware purchases more affordable with the help of some sort of subscription model. Even then, the advances in CPU and GPU chip design have slowed to a considerable degree, to the point where there may not be enough potential horsepower room for PCs to outpace consoles in a generation or two.
So, even as a mainly PC gamer, I'm not writing off consoles completely just yet.

deadish:
I was not looking for a build, I was looking for information. A run down of the general structure of PC parts and important characteristics was what I was looking for - even pointing me to the relevant websites would have helped.

Parts are useless, I don't live the in the US. Part availability and price will vary. I wanted to make my own decisions with regards to cost/benefit.

I don't know, what happened there, but the internet is full of not very nice people.

OK : general rundown

- Case : You can use old cases without a problem. Just make sure your components actually fit in if you order them online. Especcially motherboards can be pretty big

- Motherboard : Basically sets a limit how much your PC can be upgraded. Make sure your other components fit and think over if you want to upgrade maybe 4 Years later or buy a new one. Also there have been some cheap bad motherboards so you might want to read a review before you buy a budget version.

- CPU : Basically computing power and speed. Actually not that important for many games. For a gaming PC you probably don't need the best availible

- CPU-Cooler : Buy one recommended for your CPU. Some people go for more powerful ones for overclocking but that is for tinkerers. If you buy package deals there will always be a fitting one included

- RAM : Important, but the easiest thing to upgrade ever. There is memory size but also type. The latter needs to fit your

- GPU : Really important for graphics and thus for AAA games. Newer budget versions are not stronger than a year old high performance versions. Make sure, motherboard and case fit. Make also sure your power supply fits. NVidia needs slightly less power but is more expensive.

- GPU-Cooler : usually included

- PSU : Really important. Make sure it is powerful enough for your GPU. Don't go cheap here, you really don't want insufficient power (and regular shutdowns) or accidents

- Hard disk : Some people use several of them. One fast expensive SSD for system and frequently used stuff and a slower one for the rest is pretty common. But one HD works fine as well. No important pitfalls.

- Keyboard and Mouse : no pitfalls. Newer heard of incompatibility here. You can use ones decades old

- OS : Well, probably Windows.

- Monitor : make sure one of your monitor outlets matches one of your GPU outlets. Should never be a problem. It is not particular fun to have a decades old monitor and a modern PC but it is entirely possible.

- Sound, network connectivity (adapter/card) : often included in other components anyway. If not, you need to add it

deadish:

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Built my gaming PC more than four years ago. Have yet to get a game that doesn't run. Outside of bugs of course.

So .. "futureproof" should not be a problem, if you take care to buy a PC optimized for gaming instead of, say, office work, in the first place.

Its already been tried, and failed by a company that now no longer makes consoles, Sega as mentioned by orangeapples.
The MegaDrive/Genesis system tried the easy upgrade route and you ended up with a monstrosity of a setup if you wanted CD's and 32 bit processing... and Sony popped up and offered everyone the Playstation, well we all know what happened.

The kinect should of warned console manufacturers what happens when you have 'adds' to your console, very little software support unless the manufacturer wants to pay for the development costs of all the software as well.
Its simple, each 'add' divides the market base for the software developer who knows that if they support the add they are preventing the portion of the player base that didn't buy the add from buying the software.

Its also pretty obvious you will end up with a upgradable console, and the manufacturers will offer fully upgraded consoles every few years, rather than make a new console... and as already stated the price of the upgrades will be stupidly high (see Sony and the PS Vita's special microSD's ).

... hey who knows perhaps this will push developers to PC's, least they know the player base is used to adapting to get the software to work, instead of trying to work out how many took the upgrade and how many didn't.

Consoles are an outdated anti-consumer business model anyway. The sooner they die, the better.

You pay more and get a lot less... but hey, the extremely rich Western world does not care...

altnameJag:
I'll believe a PC can be just as powerful as a console at the same price point as soon as someone can price one out without using ultra-discounted used parts or $10 operating systems they got from a guy selling bootlegged Windows codes on Reddit.

Not really sure what the issue is with using discounted parts. If there's a discount why should you not advise people to take advantage of it?

Price point isn't really the thing, it's an investment. You pay a little bit extra up front and then its paid for itself after buying a few full priced games, you buy 5 games and you've already saved $100. Not to mention steam sales and humble bundles where you can get 100s of dollars worth of games for peanuts.

elvor0:

altnameJag:
I'll believe a PC can be just as powerful as a console at the same price point as soon as someone can price one out without using ultra-discounted used parts or $10 operating systems they got from a guy selling bootlegged Windows codes on Reddit.

Not really sure what the issue is with using discounted parts. If there's a discount why should you not advise people to take advantage of it?

Price point isn't really the thing, it's an investment. You pay a little bit extra up front and then its paid for itself after buying a few full priced games, you buy 5 games and you've already saved $100. Not to mention steam sales and humble bundles where you can get 100s of dollars worth of games for peanuts.

If PC's get to use discounted used parts for the "better at an even price" argument, used consoles should get the same consideration. It's like saying a Chevy Malibu is cheaper than a Hundai Elantra because you can buy the Malibu off of Dave for a song, but you have to use the sticker price for the Elantra for some reason.

Sure, use discounted parts and bootleg software all you want, but compare like-to-like.

RaikuFA:

Considering the guy I went to had a business that was fixing PC's, I think it's safe to say he wasn't doing it for free. But $200 for just a diagnostic is outrageous.

I missed the diagnostic bit when I read your other post. I agree that is to much, I can understand if someone asks some money for it, but 200$ is too much.

altnameJag:

elvor0:

altnameJag:
I'll believe a PC can be just as powerful as a console at the same price point as soon as someone can price one out without using ultra-discounted used parts or $10 operating systems they got from a guy selling bootlegged Windows codes on Reddit.

Not really sure what the issue is with using discounted parts. If there's a discount why should you not advise people to take advantage of it?

Price point isn't really the thing, it's an investment. You pay a little bit extra up front and then its paid for itself after buying a few full priced games, you buy 5 games and you've already saved $100. Not to mention steam sales and humble bundles where you can get 100s of dollars worth of games for peanuts.

If PC's get to use discounted used parts for the "better at an even price" argument, used consoles should get the same consideration. It's like saying a Chevy Malibu is cheaper than a Hundai Elantra because you can buy the Malibu off of Dave for a song, but you have to use the sticker price for the Elantra for some reason.

Sure, use discounted parts and bootleg software all you want, but compare like-to-like.

I certainly do take used consoles into consideration myself. A used console isn't the same though, because it's been /used/. Okay most of the time it doesn't actually matter, but a graphics card on sale is still new, a used console isn't.

elvor0:

altnameJag:

elvor0:

Not really sure what the issue is with using discounted parts. If there's a discount why should you not advise people to take advantage of it?

Price point isn't really the thing, it's an investment. You pay a little bit extra up front and then its paid for itself after buying a few full priced games, you buy 5 games and you've already saved $100. Not to mention steam sales and humble bundles where you can get 100s of dollars worth of games for peanuts.

If PC's get to use discounted used parts for the "better at an even price" argument, used consoles should get the same consideration. It's like saying a Chevy Malibu is cheaper than a Hundai Elantra because you can buy the Malibu off of Dave for a song, but you have to use the sticker price for the Elantra for some reason.

Sure, use discounted parts and bootleg software all you want, but compare like-to-like.

I certainly do take used consoles into consideration myself. A used console isn't the same though, because it's been /used/. Okay most of the time it doesn't actually matter, but a graphics card on sale is still new, a used console isn't.

Ahh, there's the mix up. I said "ultra discounted used parts". I remember getting sent one of those bullshit "look how awesome this computer is, and it only cost as much as a PS4", and it had a $300+ dollar graphics card bought used off of eBay for $100, and a totes legit copy of Windows bought off of Reddit for $10 that you had to upgrade to Win10 quickly before it stopped working.

Next time, report your opinion without the overdone PC master race joke. It's getting to the point that people will probably just ignore you because of the attitude it conveys. Like, I know that it's not suppose to be serious, but it still reminds me of people who talk out of their ass. And when I meet such people, their voice may as well just be farts in the wind, for all I care. You should probably drop it if you want to be taken seriously.

altnameJag:

elvor0:

altnameJag:
If PC's get to use discounted used parts for the "better at an even price" argument, used consoles should get the same consideration. It's like saying a Chevy Malibu is cheaper than a Hundai Elantra because you can buy the Malibu off of Dave for a song, but you have to use the sticker price for the Elantra for some reason.

Sure, use discounted parts and bootleg software all you want, but compare like-to-like.

I certainly do take used consoles into consideration myself. A used console isn't the same though, because it's been /used/. Okay most of the time it doesn't actually matter, but a graphics card on sale is still new, a used console isn't.

Ahh, there's the mix up. I said "ultra discounted used parts". I remember getting sent one of those bullshit "look how awesome this computer is, and it only cost as much as a PS4", and it had a $300+ dollar graphics card bought used off of eBay for $100, and a totes legit copy of Windows bought off of Reddit for $10 that you had to upgrade to Win10 quickly before it stopped working.

Bolded for emphesis, yes, yes you did. Sorry, thanks for being patient and polite to enough to point that out >< I misread it as "using", but yeah, using that sorta stuff is always iffy.

I maintain what I said about it being an investment and you can get a good, lasting gaming PC for much less if you play the long game, but I'm not gonna use that that as an argument against used parts.

Rebel_Raven:

Kinda sorta tongue in cheek. Mostly joking, though. I just am not a huge fan of pc gaming, but I recognize it's virtues, and have some envy. I've tried it off, and on, honestly. Had enough bad experiences to move on. My laptop's too weak to play minecraft. Torchlight had display issues. Some MMOs like Warframe were just too messy to mess with. Granted I'm on a laptop, here, and it's not an alienware or something like that.

With the way graphics are jumping, and the demands seem to be going to not play PC games at console levels it's bothersome.
Have they made universal GPUs, or are there still some divisions like games that will only work on AMC, or Nvidia?

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Well to answer your question about GPUs, there are no games that are tied to either of the two manufacturers (AMD and Nvidia), though sometimes a developer will partner with one of them to utilize their unique software. Nvidia has Physx for particle physics and AMD has Tress Fx for hair quality. But even when a partnerhsip does take place the game runs on all hardware. I've never heard of a game only being able to run on AMD or Nvidia GPUs.

And as I said, if you build a quality PC now there's no reason it can't last quite some time. The only reason to upgrade is if your games aren't running up to your specification. Right now, since you typically play on console that's probably 1080 or 720p at 25-30 fps. If you are happy with that you can use the same GPU for just as long as a console cycle if not longer. But typically I think a lot of people get used to and really enjoy cranking up the settings and playing at 60+ fps, so they upgrade more frequently. It's all up to you. No one is forcing any PC player to upgrade components and your components don't just stop working once a new GPU comes out. That's honestly part of the fun. Getting excited about new hardware and then opening up your rig to tinker around, change parts, fuss with your cable management; it all leads to a platform that is uniquely yours. You get attached to it in a way you don't with consoles. If something happened like a flood or power surge and my PC was ruined I would be devastated. An xbox is an xbox but this PC is mine. Maybe that's silly but that's how I feel about it.

Neonsilver:

RaikuFA:

Considering the guy I went to had a business that was fixing PC's, I think it's safe to say he wasn't doing it for free. But $200 for just a diagnostic is outrageous.

I missed the diagnostic bit when I read your other post. I agree that is to much, I can understand if someone asks some money for it, but 200$ is too much.

I don't mind paying but nowhere that much.

Jacked Assassin:
Even if the consoles were to somehow become PCs I doubt the consoles would somehow have the same problems seen with cheating like in Dark Souls Sequels. Or bad ports from Consoles to PCs by 3rd Party Companies.

A big part of the problem is that consoles almost are PCs.

There is honestly very little that I do on my PC that I couldn't also do on my 360 or Xbox One.

Browse the web, listen to music while gaming (very poorly done with the One), do basic office work. Gaming of course. All things that can be done with the 360 and One. I think burning a music CD was the last thing I did on PC that my consoles can't do.

And that's the problem. Consoles are a hop, skip, and a jump away from being a PC now, at this very moment. The only real advantage they still have is that the machine is the same its entire life, it'll run the games released for it for its whole life cycle.

Start adding in hardware upgrades, and you know at some point a publisher/developer will insist that an upgrade is needed for their game, and you no longer have a console. You have a PC with really heavy restrictions on it.

Happy gamer the top three platforms. The issue I see with upgradable consoles--splitting the player base. When playing Halo or CoD you never worry about FPS and cheaters. Everyone is on the same platform. Everyone gets the same FPS. Everyone is using the same control method. The playing field is as level as it can be.

So what happens when the upgraded consoles are in the mix? Will a top-10 player on an original console always find himself losing to another top-10 player on the upgraded box because of FPS advantages/controller response?

Callate:

Rebel_Raven:
With the way graphics are jumping, and the demands seem to be going to not play PC games at console levels it's bothersome.
Have they made universal GPUs, or are there still some divisions like games that will only work on AMC, or Nvidia?

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Hypothetically, comparable AMD and Nvidia video cards should run games about equally well. And the manufacturers try to play leap frog with one another, so neither is in the lead for long.

Realistically, though, there's something of a trend for games to favor one or the other (as apparently happened with The Witcher 3 and Tomb Raider), though often its only apparent with proprietary software that has to do a lot of calculations, like hair and certain kinds of physics.

And (while I may be biased)- my sense is that Nvidia has been winning this war for a while. Occasionally AMD wins on price, especially where options that integrate graphics and CPU on a single chip are concerned, but Nvidia tends to be cooler, faster, more stable-ly, and with lower power demands.

Still, I haven't heard of a game that out-and-out refused to run on one or the other, beyond regular system requirements, in quite some time.

As far as a "futureproof" PC goes, I do think it's possible; I even think I've mostly succeeded for about seven years. But I did replace my video card and add some more memory at some point, and at 2.93GHz, my CPU is no longer quite up to the newest and shiniest. Still, it's had a pretty good run.

Eh, maybe I'm still just a bit traumatized since I felt like I had those graphical issues, but to be fair, it was Dos games in the 80's.
It's actually good to know I'm wrong about games only working with certain graphics cards.

How much did those upgrades run you, and could you run games on higher quality settings? Roughly, speaking? I mean a lot of the point is to not just run games, but run them well.

JUMBO PALACE:

Rebel_Raven:

Kinda sorta tongue in cheek. Mostly joking, though. I just am not a huge fan of pc gaming, but I recognize it's virtues, and have some envy. I've tried it off, and on, honestly. Had enough bad experiences to move on. My laptop's too weak to play minecraft. Torchlight had display issues. Some MMOs like Warframe were just too messy to mess with. Granted I'm on a laptop, here, and it's not an alienware or something like that.

With the way graphics are jumping, and the demands seem to be going to not play PC games at console levels it's bothersome.
Have they made universal GPUs, or are there still some divisions like games that will only work on AMC, or Nvidia?

If I were to build a PC I'd assuredly want to make it strong enough for it to be futureproofed fora good long time, but I'm too paranoid to think that'll work.

Well to answer your question about GPUs, there are no games that are tied to either of the two manufacturers (AMD and Nvidia), though sometimes a developer will partner with one of them to utilize their unique software. Nvidia has Physx for particle physics and AMD has Tress Fx for hair quality. But even when a partnerhsip does take place the game runs on all hardware. I've never heard of a game only being able to run on AMD or Nvidia GPUs.

And as I said, if you build a quality PC now there's no reason it can't last quite some time. The only reason to upgrade is if your games aren't running up to your specification. Right now, since you typically play on console that's probably 1080 or 720p at 25-30 fps. If you are happy with that you can use the same GPU for just as long as a console cycle if not longer. But typically I think a lot of people get used to and really enjoy cranking up the settings and playing at 60+ fps, so they upgrade more frequently. It's all up to you. No one is forcing any PC player to upgrade components and your components don't just stop working once a new GPU comes out. That's honestly part of the fun. Getting excited about new hardware and then opening up your rig to tinker around, change parts, fuss with your cable management; it all leads to a platform that is uniquely yours. You get attached to it in a way you don't with consoles. If something happened like a flood or power surge and my PC was ruined I would be devastated. An xbox is an xbox but this PC is mine. Maybe that's silly but that's how I feel about it.

Must have been some dumb rumor I heard somewhere a while ago, I guess, about games being prone to not working with some graphics cards. God to know I'm wrong on that.

I'd probably want to be able to run stuff at high settings reliably, which feels like the point of getting a PC when I build. Getting kneecapped and having to run things at console levels would kinda defeat the whole purpose, larger game selection aside.

A connection to your PC isn't silly at all. I totally understand it. I've been there with some older computers of mine, among other things. I think it's a good thing to feel.

Rebel_Raven:

How much did those upgrades run you, and could you run games on higher quality settings? Roughly, speaking? I mean a lot of the point is to not just run games, but run them well.

. Well, when looking at upgrades, specifically upgrades to put you ahead of the console curve, I've found you're looking at, say, a $300+ video card, $50-$100 of RAM, a ~$150 dollar CPU, and occasionally an upgraded motherboard, which hopefully is compatible with your old components (otherwise you buy those all over again).

I, personally, am not convinced it shakes out to being cheaper than a current-gen console unless you're comfortable with lagging behind occasionally.

Rebel_Raven:
Eh, maybe I'm still just a bit traumatized since I felt like I had those graphical issues, but to be fair, it was Dos games in the 80's.
It's actually good to know I'm wrong about games only working with certain graphics cards.

Ooh, did you ever have to convince your computer that EMS memory was XMS, or vice versa? 'Cuz that sure was fun. [/heavy sarcasm]

We've come a ways since having to choose between sixteen colors and high resolution or 256 colors and terrible resolution, or even (mostly) Voodoo cards and OpenGL versus DirectX. Can't say I miss it much.

How much did those upgrades run you, and could you run games on higher quality settings? Roughly, speaking? I mean a lot of the point is to not just run games, but run them well.

Well, y'know, it's always kind of relative. My current card is a GeForce GTX 650 Ti, and I think it ran me about $150 at the time. It still runs most things; the last significant test I had of its capabilities was that it ran Bioshock Infinite at High (though not Ultra) settings at a comfortable frame rate. I can run GTA V at about medium settings, though I suspect at 1080p that's still not too far from what one would expect from current-gen consoles.

Conversely, memory is pretty cheap. Expanding from 3 GB to 9 GB (my motherboard uses a weird memory configuration) I believe cost about $60.

But at this point, my CPU (and in turn, motherboard) is the real millstone around the system's neck. I put together my system at the first generation of i7 chips, and I think that was a pretty good move. But recent games like The Witcher 3 and Metal Gear Solid V really do demand well over 3 GHz.

While PC gamers are often loath to admit it, the need to keep games in parity with the abilities of consoles does pay some dividends; high-end hardware doesn't become obsolete nearly as quickly as it once might have. If one's video card can play a game at 1920x1080 at something ridiculous like 250 frames per second, and in three years it can only play at 110 frames per second... Not exactly a loss. (And for much this reason, I'm somewhat skeptical that wide adoption of 4K or higher screens is going to happen any time soon.)

My hope at present is that when the GeForce 1080s become available again, I will have made space in my budget for a new system with a nice, fast, four-core Intel chip and one of those riding beneath it... And with that in hand, to comfortably ride out another five to seven years.

The console market is so bloody corrupt. This isn't about preference. There's no 1:1 correspondence between PC's and consoles, so I wish the tired-out "PC Gamers vs Console Gamers" argument could simply be replaced by "PC and Console Gamers vs the Console Market". Look at the hardware going into consoles. They make a big deal out of 1 gig storage, for example, yet how long have PC owners had access to that and not even PC gamers but all PC users? Also, we're supposed to believe that console generations are some natural, organic growth of the industry, spurred on by the development of new technology? Please. It's all inter-company collusion. There's an agreement somewhere between Microsoft and Sony for consoles to be developed with comparable hardware and planned obsolescence at around the same price. How could it be coincidence that both companies release consoles around the same time with around the same specs which are good for around the same number of years? I could maybe buy it if the Xbox and Playstation were both using state of the art hardware, grabbing processors and video cards hot off Intel and AMD's lines, but they're not.

Satinavian:

deadish:
I was not looking for a build, I was looking for information. A run down of the general structure of PC parts and important characteristics was what I was looking for - even pointing me to the relevant websites would have helped.

Parts are useless, I don't live the in the US. Part availability and price will vary. I wanted to make my own decisions with regards to cost/benefit.

I don't know, what happened there, but the internet is full of not very nice people.

OK : general rundown

--snip--

Thanks.

That was 2-3 years ago. After getting nothing from the computer forum, I decided to go solo wandering on Google. Somehow I ended up reading on duel channel RAM and how you need to connect it in alternating slots, CPU paste ... at that point I threw in the towel and just bought an Alienware. LOL

Unfortunately I got a faulty video card ... long story short, after a month of debating with my local DELL tech support, they finally relented and replaced the card. Work OK since then though - barring Windows problems and trouble with AMD's drivers.

Heard about the RX480 recently (courtesy of Youtube recommendations) ... I'm tempted to replace the R9 270 I'm using now. Assuming I can get an AMD stock card and it would fit into the smaller that normal Alienware case - price and power supply permitting; should be OK on the power supply front.

Replacing simply things like GPUs and hard drives are probably the limit for me at the moment. Building a PC from scratch ... the burden of knowledge is too high.

FalloutJack:
Next time, report your opinion without the overdone PC master race joke. It's getting to the point that people will probably just ignore you because of the attitude it conveys. Like, I know that it's not suppose to be serious, but it still reminds me of people who talk out of their ass. And when I meet such people, their voice may as well just be farts in the wind, for all I care. You should probably drop it if you want to be taken seriously.

Telling someone to drop it to conform to your way or you'll ignore them is the exact thing you are complaining that the "elitists" are doing.

Madmatty:
Upgrades, updates, install times, all these things are slowly defeating the purpose of consoles am I right?

You are. I just bought myself a PS4, and I'm well aware that I got myself an underpowered games-and-streaming exclusive "quasi-PC" for 350 bucks. I didn't have two thou to spare, so the lofty heights of constant 60 FPS and mouse-and-keyboard gaming are going to elude me for a while longer.

As for the usual "Two thou? Where I'm at, I can get a PC that'll crush any console for three hundred bucks!", I'd have to retort that this only applies in the US. In Canada, where everything's imported and taxes are a bitch, a future-proof machine costs two thousand dollars at the most. Yes, there's affordable rigs at lower price points, but they're not going to last more than a few years.

I like to wait a *long* time between rigs, personally. The one I'm currently using slid down the slope from being a beastly gaming rig in 2005 to a jalopy by 2016's standards over ten years. That's ten years with only the occasional PSU swap and one GPU replacement due to wear and tear.

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