Zero Punctuation: Overwatch vs Battleborn

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I don't understand people defending an inferior pose because it's the artist's "original intent". During beta, the developers received feedback then proceeded to make a more memorable pose (off a pin-up, funny enough) that in no way hides Tracer's Grand Canyon-like ass crack. What's the principle being fought for here? Things shouldn't be improved because it may have been motivated by complaints you've deemed silly?

Steve the Pocket:
[quote="Worgen" post="6.939478.23688708"]Ugh, you made this mistake in your lets drown out also. The reason blizzard changed the character wasn't the complaint, it was that the poster said it was out of character for that character. Which it was, despite how high her pants ride up on her. It wasnt someone saying "sexist" it was someone saying "I don't think she would pose like that."

Welcome to the New Dumb, where everyone who hadn't already pitched their tent in the political correctness camp feels obligated to join the war against it and make themselves look like assholes in the process. (See also: South Park, which got way more criticism early on than it does nowadays but still felt the need to devote the whole last season to lashing out at their critics.) It's funny, looking back at older Zero Punctuation episodes where he gleefully mocked the unabashed sexualization in video games, called Uncharted "a game for white supremacists" because all the enemies you fight are minorities, censored his own video when people complained that one of the jokes came across as mocking transsexuals... If Gamergate had been looking for ammo to lump him in with their shit list of "SJWs who are ruining gaming", there was plenty to go around.

And the mastermind behind turning the Escapist into Gamergate Central and systematically firing everyone who'd ever said a bad word about them... none other than Alexander Macris, the owner and original founder of the site, who had been just as instrumental in bringing them on board in the first place. You really have to wonder if something got into the water in the past few years.

This.

Seriously, for all the self-aggrandizing, self-professed posturing over rationality and thick-skinnedness, the "anti-SJW" wave merely appears to be "Haters gonna hate" and "You do you, boo!" personified writ-large. Albeit, with a deficit of irony, self-awareness, or empathy.

As a writer, my stance has always been that releasing one's work to the public renders it equally susceptible to both praise and criticism. Political correctness aside, how many great works are disparaged for "dumb" reasons beyond offense? The "overrated" card, for example?

The Enquirer:

Piecewise:
It's already dropped by 50% since launch.

Where did you hear that? They just published stats recently (as in today) that they grew to ten million players, which surpasses even the open beta numbers.

Number of players is meaningless. Active players is the real number. Blizzard is famous for reporting the former and not the latter.

Kawalorn:

Worgen:
Are you so jaded that you cant jack off to a slightly different pose? Cause that's what it sounds like your fighting for.

Calm your justice boner, insulting people left and right isn't exactly a good way to make a point.

Justice boner...

I FUCKEN love that, from now on that is what I'm calling my hard on.

Frankster:

Worgen:

Look at her poses here. Which one sounds out? You have 3 cocky playful poses then one where she is just standing there almost saying "look at my butt." Its not playful, its not cocky, it just is, there is no character to it.

I'm sorry but for me the one standing out is when she is sitting down and has her goggles removed xD

Were it not for this drama around the butt, I would really not see much of a difference between the first pose and other 2 standing ones. I keep hearing how that pose is out of character for her or something, but I guess I'm not squinting hard enough to see it.
Again, out of those 4, the one that stands out is the one where the speedster's sitting down and very much immobile, at least in all the standing ones, whether she shows her butt or not, she is ready to run off in an instant.

Maybe I'm just a pervert who can't jack off to a slightly differently pose..Oh wait I can, quite easily. Never mind it's all good!

I think all the characters have a sit down pose, but it still works since its playful.

So who here started cringing six ways from Sunday when he started to talk about how several characters are pandering to demographics? For fuck's sake, the whole game has the vibe of a slightly darker 80s cartoon yet everyone's hammering it for pandering to some invisible "social justice warriors".

Zarya's face is LITERALLY based on a Blizzard employee, hence the pink hair and being incredibly Russian rather than a shallow attempt at drawing in the tumblr crowd. Mei's not even "chubby" for one, she's wearing a thick winter coat. I just... Yahtzee dropped the ball on this one. I can forgive that because multiplayer isn't his thing.

I'm glad Yahtzee constantly mentions his disfavor for multiplayer game so I don't sound like the only solitary loser on the gaming forums. Godforbid you ask a younger gamer if a game like LoL or Call of Duty has a single player mode, you'll get laughed out of the park.

I love how this game pisses off people on both sides of the "I'm very serious about gender politics" spectrum, and you have a gajillion people who are playing it and having fun with it, it's probably made a ton of money already, proving truly how small the group of screaming malcontents truly is.

hentropy:
I love how this game pisses off people on both sides of the "I'm very serious about gender politics" spectrum, and you have a gajillion people who are playing it and having fun with it, it's probably made a ton of money already, proving truly how small the group of screaming malcontents truly is.

Funny thing is when Blizzard started issuing takedowns of Overwatch SFM porn, the game immediately jumped in the amount of search results it recieved. So, no matter how you look at it, while people are arguing about how it bakes, Blizzard is making off with all the dough (Or however that saying goes).

How the hell did this topic turn into mindless politicization?
Whatever.

Let's talk instead about Battleborn and WHY it has received so much ire. I think it's no surprise to people that Gearbox is, for a lot of people, on par with EA at this point. Gearbox has, several times now, fleeced both its publishers and the users who supported it.

So when Randy Pitchford himself was trying to clarify what the goal of the game was, and it was this:
image
Who else do you have to blame for no one being interested but yourself, Randy, you dense tosspot? Yes, this is the person I trust with a long-term content-driven project of which I'm expected to pay retail price for.

But maybe I'm just biased. I have a very strict 'No Gearbox' policy in place when it comes to purchasing. Maybe I'm not the best one to be asking about it.

Except, it's very clear that Battleborn doesn't have a single thing that hooks anyone in. The characters look bad, the gameplay looks stale and not very quick, and the main hook of the game appears to be the virtual treadmill of imaginary items.

So is it really any surprise that Blizzard comes along, the people who nailed the virtual treadmill of imaginary items and continues to make gross amounts of profit off it to this day, and completely stomps Gearbox at its own game?

It's probably a moot point anyway, it's already speculated that Battleborn will be Free to play by the end of the year. So if nothing else that will at least get people looking in its general direction.

Dalisclock:

Borderlands 2 didn't do much for me. It's still on my hard drive but I haven't touched it in nearly a year(I got to Sanctuary, did a few missions and then kinda lost interest).

Ironically, I started playing because I really enjoyed Tales from the Borderlands(even without knowing anything other then the fact Handsome Jack is a bit of a dick).

Weirdly, I put off trying Tales from the Borderlands for ages because I assumed nothing good could come from what the shooter series had shown to me. Oh how wrong I was! And agreed H.Jack is certainly a nasty bastard there. Still one of the best telltale experiences to date, alongside the walking dead. :)

In summation: He hated both games, but he had less notfun with Overwatch.

Also, people blow the pose change out of proportion. It wasn't about hiding her butt (the replacement pose shows it off just as well), it was about the original pose being too boring for the character's personality, with the new pose fitting her much better.

hentropy:
I love how this game pisses off people on both sides of the "I'm very serious about gender politics" spectrum, and you have a gajillion people who are playing it and having fun with it, it's probably made a ton of money already, proving truly how small the group of screaming malcontents truly is.

I'm not so sure about both sides. The people who get painted with the SJW brush seem to be having a great time playing the game and shipping all the female characters with each other.

WhiteTigerShiro:
In summation: He hated both games, but he had less notfun with Overwatch.

Also, people blow the pose change out of proportion. It wasn't about hiding her butt (the replacement pose shows it off just as well), it was about the original pose being too boring for the character's personality, with the new pose fitting her much better.

How is it anymore boring than the other two standing/hip swaying poses?

erttheking:

hentropy:
I love how this game pisses off people on both sides of the "I'm very serious about gender politics" spectrum, and you have a gajillion people who are playing it and having fun with it, it's probably made a ton of money already, proving truly how small the group of screaming malcontents truly is.

I'm not so sure about both sides. The people who get painted with the SJW brush seem to be having a great time playing the game and shipping all the female characters with each other.

Well since damn near everyone can be painted with the "SJW" brush, that's hardly surprising.

However, I have seen more than a couple of people on the "other side" (even on this forum, not to mention outside of it) who still take issue with the game's female representation because there's too many skin-tight suits or "sexualized" characters and not enough female versions of Roadhog. Which is a position I can at least respect, but considering all the things the game does right when it comes to representation, you can't let the perfect (at least by some perspective) be the enemy of the good.

You'd think that since Yahtzee laments at dry game seasons so often he'd use that time to make retro reviews or editorials or his "special moments in gaming" videos that he used to do back in the day. Hell, he could even do some fan mail readings and tell us what whiny pricks we are.

I guess he's gotten comfy with all that Escapist money, since becoming their last money maker.

erttheking:

hentropy:
I love how this game pisses off people on both sides of the "I'm very serious about gender politics" spectrum, and you have a gajillion people who are playing it and having fun with it, it's probably made a ton of money already, proving truly how small the group of screaming malcontents truly is.

I'm not so sure about both sides. The people who get painted with the SJW brush seem to be having a great time playing the game and shipping all the female characters with each other.

Well, I don't know about """SJWs""", but I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE me some lesbians. Tracer/Widow and Zarya/Mei are my otp 4 life, son!

crimsonspear4D:
Snip

I'm slowly becoming a big fan of Pharah/Mercy myself.

Wow, this video seems to have a lot more comments than normal, I guess people really want to weigh in on which game they pref.... it's about the fucking butt again. Can't you guys just go read through one of the old threads where you already brought up all of these arguments several times? Just go read one of your old posts, pat yourself on the back, say "mhmm, I showed that person, they must surely believe my side now", and MOVE ON. I feel as if I've transcended to a new level of disappointment.

OT: Out of the two games, I've only played Overwatch. While I definitely agree that it's overpriced at 60, I think it's fair at 40. I've already gotten my money's worth out of it and will probably spend 100s of hours more on the game. Add the free updates that will be coming down the pipeline and the huge community, I'd say I'm pretty excited for the future of this game. I've done my best to get decent with as many heroes as possible. So far I'm thoroughly enjoying:
McCree
Reaper
Pharah
Soldier 76
Zarya (probably my favourite)
Roadhog
Junkrat
Lucio

I hate versing:
Mercy (her ult is the swingyest in the game and she gets it so fast)
Genji (fucker just jumps around most of the time)
Tracer (mostly because I'm jealous of the people who play her well)
Widowmaker (the most unfun thing in this game is flanking a team only to be shot in the face due to wall hacks as you round a corner)
Spamzo

Thanatos2k:

The Enquirer:

Piecewise:
It's already dropped by 50% since launch.

Where did you hear that? They just published stats recently (as in today) that they grew to ten million players, which surpasses even the open beta numbers.

Number of players is meaningless. Active players is the real number. Blizzard is famous for reporting the former and not the latter.

My point being that I hadn't heard anything regarding active players and was wondering where he had heard that because, as you said, we don't get those numbers and I was wondering if the person in question actually had a source or was just talking out of their ass.

I can't say I disagree with Yatzhee at all here, other than that I've been enjoying Battleborn a lot more, and for at least one reason he didn't mention: it's got SPLITSCREEN. Yeah! So my son and I can play it together. That, plus the campaign missions and solo play make Battleborn a better fit for my house.

Oerwatch was fun but after 3 hours I felt like I had seen all the game had to offer. It's kinda like eating popcorn....if you had 20 flavors of popcorn to eat, but it's still popcorn in the end, lots of empty carbs. But the popular consensus online seems to be Overwatch is the be-all and end-all so.....yeah.

RobfromtheGulag:
I'm glad Yahtzee constantly mentions his disfavor for multiplayer game so I don't sound like the only solitary loser on the gaming forums. Godforbid you ask a younger gamer if a game like LoL or Call of Duty has a single player mode, you'll get laughed out of the park.

Totally with you here. I actually bought Overwatch because of the story trailers and thought it was going to have some sort of campaign or story element in the game itself, and was totally surprised (due to my poor research, I guess) that it was nothing but shorty, frothy online arena matches essentially. My bad. But still.....why couldn't Blizzard have done a campaign mode, with offline play? Why waste all that effort on a story that's essentially not even in the game?

camazotz:

Totally with you here. I actually bought Overwatch because of the story trailers and thought it was going to have some sort of campaign or story element in the game itself, and was totally surprised (due to my poor research, I guess) that it was nothing but shorty, frothy online arena matches essentially. My bad. But still.....why couldn't Blizzard have done a campaign mode, with offline play? Why waste all that effort on a story that's essentially not even in the game?

I was interested in the trailers, but once I heard it was pretty much a team shooter ala TF2, I realized nothing in the trailers was going to matter(and it seems I was right). and my interest pretty much dropped off. I'd love to see a full length Overwatch film or a SP game exploring the world and characters, but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards so I've kind of stopped paying attention.

marioandsonic:
I wondered if Yahtzee was going to review either one of these games, so I guess it makes sense he would compare the two in the review.

...Wait, he commented about TracerGate? OH GOD YAHTZEE WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!

Quick, everyone into the bunker before the flame war starts!

Someone didn't scroll down...

Tis too late, the wars of flame have begun.

Hades:
Can't really see the drought with Fire emblem Fates being released in the Australia now as well. Only after that one can talk about a dry season.

Considering his opinion of Valkyria Chronicles I doubt Fire Emblem is on Yahtzee's radar.

Worgen:
Look at her poses here. Which one sounds out? You have 3 cocky playful poses then one where she is just standing there almost saying "look at my butt." Its not playful, its not cocky, it just is, there is no character to it. Its the kind of pose you just use when your mind farts and you cant be bothered.

They all look pretty bland and lifeless apart from the one where she's sitting down. I like the new pose though.

Can someone explain what Yahtzee means by "full price"? Overwatch is $40 USD for the base game.

I loved that aside to talk about how the concept of buying a game has changed. I too dislike the thought of investing in permission to run around a server until the lights go off.

Yuuki:
Can someone explain what Yahtzee means by "full price"? Overwatch is $40 USD for the base game.

On the Blizzard store for Australia, the basic edition is $70, the Origins edition is $90. And the basic edition is not available as a physical game so X1 and PS4 players are paying $90 just to get on the ground floor - unless the basic is on Live or PSN, but I can't check that at the moment.

So yeah, I loved everything about Overwatch but at it's current price point I can't justify it. If it had a campaign, maybe, but it didn't.

overwatch is fun and im not even great at MP games. but, at least it gives you the option to play against the AI which is pretty welcoming for me. every now and then i do play against others.

and dont worry, i also hate borderlands. didnt see the appeal in it.

A fine video Mr Croshaw, but I will comment on one thing, the Tracer pose change wasn't a cave in from Blizzard due to one person, Jeff Kaplan went on record stating that even the internal team didn't like the pose so the change was inevitable.

Gordon_4:

Yuuki:
Can someone explain what Yahtzee means by "full price"? Overwatch is $40 USD for the base game.

On the Blizzard store for Australia, the basic edition is $70, the Origins edition is $90. And the basic edition is not available as a physical game so X1 and PS4 players are paying $90 just to get on the ground floor - unless the basic is on Live or PSN, but I can't check that at the moment.

So yeah, I loved everything about Overwatch but at it's current price point I can't justify it. If it had a campaign, maybe, but it didn't.

It's retail price on the PSN as well.

camazotz:
Why waste all that effort on a story that's essentially not even in the game?

Because "Project Titan", it was supposed to be the MMO successor to WoW. They likely worked on the back story for years before canceling it and piecing together Overwatch from the rubble.

hermes:

Johnny Novgorod:

C14N:
It's not sexist, it's just sexually suggestive.

Right you are, but the outcry was over sexism, not the perception of what Tracer's "character" would and wouldn't do.

Actually, no. The original complain was because it was "out of character".

The "character" everyone decided she had before the game was even out, sure.

Transdude1996:
snip

Worgen:
snip

Piecewise:
snip

I feel like everyone wants to view this Tracer thing in purely black and white terms, either as another gamergate tantrum or another SJW overreach. I feel like it's possible to have complicated opinions about it that aren't so absolute.

Was that pose objectifying? Yes, unequivocally. It was fairly standard video game/comic book 'girl who wears impractical armour that also happens to be sexy' trope.

Did it 'undermine so much of the good they had done'? I don't think so. At the risk of being accused of mansplaining, I think it wasn't necessary to imply that everything they had done was at risk because of one pose. I hate this internet mentality of tearing strips off people the moment they put a foot out of line. I prefer the softly softly approach at first.

Was it bad that Blizzard responded the way they did? Yes and no. I think it's both troubling that Blizzard can be so easily influenced by a single opinion, especially in a team-shooter like Overwatch where balance is king, but I also think it's good that they pay attention to their community.

I'm ambivalent, in other words. Really, I feel like the big problem with this is that the internet compulsively divides into camps to fling rocks at each other whenever something like this happens. As far as 'controversies' go, this is so minor it doesn't have its own passport.

Johnny Novgorod:

hermes:

Johnny Novgorod:
Right you are, but the outcry was over sexism, not the perception of what Tracer's "character" would and wouldn't do.

Actually, no. The original complain was because it was "out of character".

The "character" everyone decided she had before the game was even out, sure.

Well all we know of Tracer's character is what we've gotten from the various trailers and shorts - all (or most) of which were released prior to the game itself since there's no narrative framework in the game to inform us of her traits. Plus since the complaint came from a closed beta tester they were basing their opinion on the in-game information as well.

Gordon_4:

Johnny Novgorod:

hermes:
Actually, no. The original complain was because it was "out of character".

The "character" everyone decided she had before the game was even out, sure.

Well all we know of Tracer's character is what we've gotten from the various trailers and shorts - all (or most) of which were released prior to the game itself since there's no narrative framework in the game to inform us of her traits. Plus since the complaint came from a closed beta tester they were basing their opinion on the in-game information as well.

I'm with Yahtzee on this - to me it just shows what little faith Blizzard had on what they were doing.

Johnny Novgorod:

hermes:

Johnny Novgorod:
Right you are, but the outcry was over sexism, not the perception of what Tracer's "character" would and wouldn't do.

Actually, no. The original complain was because it was "out of character".

The "character" everyone decided she had before the game was even out, sure.

Exactly.

At that point, Blizzard, with its team of dozens of profesional concept artists, animators, game designers, inbetweeners, etc... was the only one that could judge if someone was indeed "out of character"; and they thought there was more merit to that opinion (and those of their team) than the one of random Internet people.

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