Zero Punctuation: Deus Ex Mankind Divided

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weirdee:
Game too short? It's almost as if they removed the next two parts of the game and made them DLC. But I'm just tossing that theory out there, I don't think a triple AAA company would be so irresponsible to either launch an intentionally feature removed game as a full priced product and then package already made parts of the game into separately priced items that cost more total than a completed whole game, or sell an early access game packaged as a complete game in order to get the game through the super long approval process and shipped to market sooner while they continue making it in the form of DLC and charge us more money to get the rest of it. That would be a total violation of consumer rights.

Especially if it's because all of that is still the FIRST HALF of a game that was split in half to make two games.

Baresark:
I will agree with one thing... the shear number of augmented people were ridiculous. Like... 60% of all the people walking around are augmented. In Prague, the augmented people should be completely in charge since they clearly outnumber all the non augmented people. The Racism analogy is in fact in your face in the game, but I don't think it's as poor as he makes it out to be. The augmented people are living in a place where they are second class citizens, literally. They have special entrances to pubic areas for example. To me, the story while not perfect, is a perfectly reasonable followup to the events of the last game.

The augmented don't have the capacity to be effective killing/suppression forces unless they get turned berserk again, and there's waaaaay more immigrants and minority population than there are rich people IRL, so the social dynamics aren't all easy mathematics.

The game was definitely intended to be longer, Jim Sterling talked to people who worked on Mankind Divided and Square Enix seemed to be actively trying to sabotage the game at every turn:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVbj4GuuZTA

I liked the game quite a bit. (Aside from the DLC issues and such, which I can ignore by not buying it.) Interesting characters, the main storyline was fine, the side missions were very good, very nice aesthetic, fun stealth gameplay.

However, there are some major limitations in prequels just by their nature, and the DE prequels are doing nothing to avoid them--indeed, MD steers right into them. At the end, Adam tells Alex he is going to bring the people behind the conspiracy into the light, namely Joseph Manderley and Bob Page.

But we already know he's going to do no such thing; in fact, they are only going to become more powerful in the years to come, whereas Adam and his allies (with the possible exception of Samizdat, merging into Silhouette) disappear. Nor will he be exposing others behind the scenes, like Simons or DeBeers or DuClare or Everett. The best he can do is take out low level terrorists like he did in this game; setting him up to take down forces we know he won't take down paints Square Enix into a very small corner.

Don Incognito:
But we already know he's going to do no such thing; in fact, they are only going to become more powerful in the years to come...

That was always a major issue I had with HR - it seems more damaging to DE than most to abuse prequels 'cause you can't be arsed to deal with continuity and yet want to make more moneyz; there are a lot of artfully crafted elements to HR (and, I assume, MD though I've not played it yet), but at it's heart it's ironically deeply soulless and commercially exploitative.

DE broke new ground, but what do HR and, apparently, MD do? Wallow in that game's world, whilst not actually doing anything constructive or surprising with it.

Invisible War was much maligned by fans, but I still think it was an incredibly intelligent game in terms of writing and themes. It was pretentious in a kind of written-by-a-teenager way, but I admired its shameless philosophical musings. That game's writing nudged me into getting into Plato and reading de Tocqueville, so it was quite literally intellectually and philosophically inspiring, at least to me (and the game itself was pretty damn good, particularly if that was your first DE, as it was mine).

Human Revolution, by comparison? Didn't have an intelligent thought in its head. Fine gameplay, gorgeously detailed world, but it had had a veritable lobotomy, and it seems like MD's just carried on down that track if its 'aug-lives matter' thematics are anything to go by.

George Weidman/Super Bunnyhop did a pretty decent review of it as well, btw:

He had issues with it, but still thoroughly enjoyed the actual gameplay elements. Since HR I kinda just see the series as Adam Jensen: Badass Simulator, and as that it can work superbly, so more of the same doesn't overly bother me this time, if that's the case.

Darth Rosenberg:
Since HR I kinda just see the series as Adam Jensen: Badass Simulator, and as that it can work superbly, so more of the same doesn't overly bother me this time, if that's the case.

It is very much the case. Adam being such an unlikable stereotype of every gruff dudebro videogame protagonist doesn't much help my enjoyment, though JC Denton was much the same in the original. Invisible War's greatest success was shaping a more likable and relatable protagonist. It was a decent enough game, it just fell flat in level design and plotting, especially compared to the original game.

Gotta love games that say your actions have huge consequences, only to find out no one cares who's face you melted in the last chapter/activity/block-away.

darkrage6:

Transdude1996:
So, going by the comments I'm seeing, while the game is better than given credit, wait for the DLC to come out, and then the inevitable "GOTYE/SE/DX/EE/AE/" of the game with minor tweaks and changes that fix common complaints.

Also, I'd like to point out that probably the reason the game was advertised as "battling racism" is because of how meaningless the word means today when you can call someone a racist for wanting people to go through the proper legal channels to become a citizen, or wanting to make sure that people entering an area do not have the intent to level it and everyone in the vicinity.

Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.

A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.

Transdude1996:

darkrage6:

Transdude1996:
So, going by the comments I'm seeing, while the game is better than given credit, wait for the DLC to come out, and then the inevitable "GOTYE/SE/DX/EE/AE/" of the game with minor tweaks and changes that fix common complaints.

Also, I'd like to point out that probably the reason the game was advertised as "battling racism" is because of how meaningless the word means today when you can call someone a racist for wanting people to go through the proper legal channels to become a citizen, or wanting to make sure that people entering an area do not have the intent to level it and everyone in the vicinity.

Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.

A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.

No it has not become meaningless just cause you say so.

There is no Trump bias, are you fucking kidding me? Now you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, the fact you're sourcing from a trashy gossip rag like Daily Beast proves my point.

If anything the media has been giving Trump a free ride, as they hardly ever talk about all the shady shit he's been involved(I.E. the Trump university scandal).

I always find it kinda funny when people talk about Jensen being overly gruff, because it's basically just the actor's normal voice.

Elias Toufexis sounds just like his character, though he tends to talk with a bit more levity.

So.. am I the only one that is annoyed with the title of this series? Deus Ex. God in.....

Come on now, finish the damn phrase!

"Insultingly short"? Really? It took me 21 hours to beat the game once, on normal, and missing several sidequests, which is only ever so slightly shorter than my first HR run. The only MD is "short" is if you play on easy and rush through every level and ignore every side mission.

Also strongly disagree with the conspiracy being thrown around that squeenix cut the game up at the last second or chopped out major parts of the story to sell as DLC. If anything the game feels like the middle of a trilogy from beginning to end, so if a choice was made to make two games instead of one I would guess it was made fairly early in development.

I disagree with Yahtzee on a few points (for starters, I thought the game was pretty good and of decent length with side missions) but the image of Jensen falling into a dumpster full of airhorns is so funny I'm not going to even bother arguing. Especially since I've more or less had that happen in game. Word to the wise: the charged Icarus Dash does not travel as far as it looks.

Don't want to talk too much about the racism analogy, but I think it's worth bringing up that not every aug is a military-powered mecha-man like Adam. Most of the average aug citizens appear to be people who have people who have replaced one or two body parts, either because they needed to like Adam, or because they bought into the golden age ideology prevalent in the previous game that augmentation was the "next step" in human evolution. Which doesn't make them completely unsympathetic, since they couldn't have known about the incident, or that society would do a complete 180 on augmentation.

major_chaos:
"Insultingly short"? Really? It took me 21 hours to beat the game once, on normal, and missing several sidequests, which is only ever so slightly shorter than my first HR run. The only MD is "short" is if you play on easy and rush through every level and ignore every side mission.

Also strongly disagree with the conspiracy being thrown around that squeenix cut the game up at the last second or chopped out major parts of the story to sell as DLC. If anything the game feels like the middle of a trilogy from beginning to end, so if a choice was made to make two games instead of one I would guess it was made fairly early in development.

I guess we'll be putting your theory to the test because the first DLC for MD was just announced, and it's releasing two weeks from Friday:
http://nichegamer.com/2016/09/07/deus-ex-mankind-divided-system-rift-dlc-releases-september-23/

Though, I have to admit, I do remember hearing something about Jenson's story being a trilogy not too long ago.

K12:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.

I've always had a problem with racism analogies where the distrust is completely reasonable and understandable. The vampires in True Blood was a particular bugbear of mine. It is *rational* to be scared of vampires because they *actually kill people*. Fangophobia is not a civil rights issue!
(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)

Flatfrog:

(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)

Well, not when you put it like *that*, but you do realise equating Muslim with "big dark-skinned beardy man" is kinda racist, right? Especially since statistically Middle-Easterners tend to be smaller than average in height. I mean I'd be a million times more frightened of white Christians from the American south than Islamic migrants because the latter aren't born into a culture saying outsiders are out to get you, but don't worry because you have guns to protect you.

Transdude1996:

I guess we'll be putting your theory to the test because the first DLC for MD was just announced, and it's releasing two weeks from Friday:
http://nichegamer.com/2016/09/07/deus-ex-mankind-divided-system-rift-dlc-releases-september-23/

I already knew about that DLC, and based on what is currently known it looks more like a retread of a existing mission (oh goody we get to break into Palisade again) rather than some vital chunk of plot or a continuation of the main story.

Hmm, much as I am excited to play this fellow, I think I'll wait until Christmas time and see if a GOTY edition has poked it's head up by then.

Flatfrog:

I've always had a problem with racism analogies where the distrust is completely reasonable and understandable. The vampires in True Blood was a particular bugbear of mine. It is *rational* to be scared of vampires because they *actually kill people*. Fangophobia is not a civil rights issue!
(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)

It depends where you are. In the UK or US you are far more likely to die from a bus crash than said male. I would not be at all nervous in that situation and believe it is irrational to be so. Big males dont make me nervous. Dark skinned or otherwise.

OT. I dont think it works for racism. Its natural to be nervous to walk down the street if everyone is carrying concealed weapons.

darkrage6:

Transdude1996:

darkrage6:
Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.

A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.

No it has not become meaningless just cause you say so.

There is no Trump bias, are you fucking kidding me? Now you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, the fact you're sourcing from a trashy gossip rag like Daily Beast proves my point.

If anything the media has been giving Trump a free ride, as they hardly ever talk about all the shady shit he's been involved(I.E. the Trump university scandal).

I'm no Trump supporter but the whole reason I know about Trump U is because of the media so I'm not sure it's fair to say he's been given a pass on that. As for "racism" being a word without meaning, it really depends on how it's being used. When used as a rhetorical trump card in a way that relies only on an assertion and not any other meaningful criteria, it is pretty useless. But that's not a problem with the word, it's a problem with people engaged in begging the question or goalpost shifting.

OT: The idea of choice and how it plays into oppression is, I think, meaningful but overstated. There are things that we would call "choices" that can very much fall into the realm of oppression. Getting an augmentation is a choice but does not necessarily constitute a good reason for lashing out against the people who are making the choice to become augmented. One's sexual preferences are not a choice but engaging in acts involving homosexual sex is a choice.

Certainly many/most of us would say that banning such acts constitutes oppression, even if what's being banned are things related to choice and not to someone's inherent sexual nature. A guy who gets his arm blown off likely didn't chose that but having said arm replaced is a choice. Neither the loss of said arm nor its totally reasonable replacement via augmentation should serve as grounds for oppressive systems. I think the analogy works fine and that choice or the lack of it is not necessary for determining whether systems should be considered oppressive or not.

woodlandkammo:
It's funny, pacemakers were the exact thing I thought of. Seriously, in this world, exactly how easy is it to be classified as an "Aug"? What about people with cochlear implants? Or just regular prosthetics?

I'd say it's the PIDOT cluster or lack of one that separates prosthetics from "augmentations" seeing as it's a brain, computer interface inside your head that lets you control your cybernetics and it's pretty much what went wrong at the end of HR.

Darth Rosenberg:
Snip

Now I own the original Dues Ex, but I have not gotten around to playing it. Personally I found that HR did a lot of interesting exploring the idea of transhumanism, such as all the positive aspects (Amputees being able to live complete lives, saving people that otherwise couldn't be save, being able to go beyond what it means to be human) along with all of the negative aspects (Favors the rich, gives augs an unfair advantage over non-augs, some people just can't handle their bodies being transformed like that) and the arguments for why people take sades (My body my choice, wealth disparity, not natural, potentially can reach out to everyone some day) as well as the potential dangers. So did the original Dues Ex do something like that? Or are you talking about more philosophical concepts, and if so was that a heavy theme in the original Dues ex?

K12:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.

Well yeah, it's reasonable until you remember the fact that all the augs went kill crazy specifically because every last one of them had been given a tampered datachip by the Illuminati. The odds of them being able to pull the same stunt twice is zill to none, particularly with their supercomputer gone. It's reasonable to people who don't know what the hell happened, but they're acting on partial information, if even that.

erttheking:
Now I own the original Dues Ex, but I have not gotten around to playing it. Personally I found that HR did a lot of interesting exploring the idea of transhumanism, such as all the positive aspects (Amputees being able to live complete lives, saving people that otherwise couldn't be save, being able to go beyond what it means to be human) along with all of the negative aspects (Favors the rich, gives augs an unfair advantage over non-augs, some people just can't handle their bodies being transformed like that) and the arguments for why people take sades (My body my choice, wealth disparity, not natural, potentially can reach out to everyone some day) as well as the potential dangers. So did the original Dues Ex do something like that? Or are you talking about more philosophical concepts, and if so was that a heavy theme in the original Dues ex?

First off, I've never been able to finish the original - I came to it just a few years ago, and it's just too dated for me to really get into. Plus, one rather superb element of HR was [almost all of] its voice acting, and DE really is--- well, exactly like going back in time, to an era where production values were scant, and the 'talent' weren't very talented and generally also had bad dialogue and direction to work with.

Like I said, Invisible War is generally reviled by fans of the original, for being a filthy casual streamlined console game. Is it more linear? Sure, but I couldn't compare it to something I never played, so for me it was still pretty damn good at giving you options to explore and deal with situations in a variety of ways.

Anyhoo, as for HR: all the things you remarked are in it, sure, and it presents them just fine - better than average, in fact, given most mainstream media actively shies away from social commentary. However, for me it was just rote text - social commentary 101. It presented the situation finely, but I personally don't feel it had anything to say about it.

My biggest complaint beyond its lack of actual insight was that compared to IW, HR was - to use a phrase first learnt from Fox Mulder... - small potatoes; IW was way out there on the extremes of what was potential with our previously only biological, 'natural' species. HR is just street level groundwork, and IW was the (excuse the figure of speech. no comparison's intended, btw) final solution of each of the main divergent paths; IW could explore that final step into something transcendentally new/different.

I have a feeling - given I've not played it for an entire gen or so - IW was hokey, and rather hamfisted with its bold brushstrokes. Key scenes/meetings or plot beats had Alex D (male or female - I'd like that option back in a DE) standing around with another character, simply talking and sometimes quoting philosophy (that's a spoiler heavy excerpt, but it gives a good indication of IW's tone and priorities), batting back and forth questions about just what was ethical or moral in a world where mankind could effectively choose and grasp its own destiny, along with all the 'who watches the watchmen' quandaries. IW's ends include a rather chilly utopia (effectively the annihilation of Self/the individual, sacrificed for clear-headed quasi-hive consensus), as well as an apocalyptic wasteland.

By comparison, HR mumbled a bit about welfare systems for people with polymer legs... whilst momentarily teasing a nanomachine future we'd already seen and dealt with. Like I said; small potatoes. Philosophy and ethics were hugely important to IW, but they seemed to be in hiding in HR bar a few cursory conversations. IW provoked long lasting thought as well as years worth of further reading. HR? It was like a quite stylish cop show or action thriller. And that's it. And when the 'secrets' you're working to uncover had been laid bare almost a decade ago, well, it was very hard to care (for me, DE's plot and lore is uninteresting, ergo seeing it all slot into place has no real appeal).

Each to their own, of course. If HR was your first DE, then I can easily see why it might be very impressive and/or satisfying. I still had a lot of fun playing it (including this year on XB1), but only after I'd more or less pretended it was an entirely new and less ambitious IP. Gorgeous art design, though; most of the actual open air zones are blocky and quite ugly, but even this year I was constantly stopping to be impressed by the lengths they'd gone to detail the world (did air vent grille #785 need that high res a workplace sign and attention to graphic design? nope, but it gets it).

Don Incognito:
It is very much the case. Adam being such an unlikable stereotype of every gruff dudebro videogame protagonist doesn't much help my enjoyment, though JC Denton was much the same in the original.

I don't feel any of the games have presented a particularly compelling or engaging protagonist - to me they're like Shepard's; a not entirely successful halfway house between player character and writer's avatar.

And I'm not sure I'd call Jensen a typical dudebro. I actually came to like his quirky Eastwood-possibly-with-a-respiratory-condition drawl; DE can deal with some genuinely interesting themes, but its lore is inherently goofy, seemingly with its feet still planted in the kinds of conspiracies The X-Files popularised then swiftly ran into the ground. MJ12, aliens, Area 51, shady global conspiracies, etc. If DE is now the aforementioned Adam Jensen: Badass Simulator, then I feel he fits that rather goofy world just fine. An interesting or engaging character he ain't (he barely counts as a character), but he certainly strikes some fancy combat poses, and when upgraded comes across as a veritable god of destruction/ninja-ness who'd put most other action and stealth game protagonists to shame.

I'd like to see the next DE abandon him and feature a new, customisable character with no set gender.

Invisible War's greatest success was shaping a more likable and relatable protagonist. It was a decent enough game, it just fell flat in level design and plotting, especially compared to the original game.

If the original's level design was particularly good, I found it very hard to appreciate - for me it's like Baldur's Gate; probably would've loved it when it came out, but I just can't get into it anymore. The iffy dialogue and voice acting was a bit of a surprise, too.

Darth Rosenberg:
snip

For 2000, Deus Ex's voice acting was out of this world, when it came to video games. Today, of course, it is garbage. That's one area where the new games excel, of course--the pretty bells and whistles that increase immersion.

Even today, the level design of the original stands out--Hell's Kitchen and Hong Kong feel nearly as big as the Detroit hub of Human Revolution, and just as stuffed with things to do and discover. As I said, IW's biggest failing; Upper Seattle is barely as big as Sarif Industries.

I actually haven't played the original in about five years, and the sequel in about ten; this thread is making me want to fire them back up.

K12:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.

How long have you been away from the internet?
It was already decided the game was racist, etc. for using the words "mechanical apartheid" and artwork saying "augslives matter".
Not even the former director Gilles Matouba was spared.

Amaror:
Yeah the racism analogy is pretty funny. You would guess that people would have more of a self-preservation instincts to not treat the augs like shit. I mean we are talking about people here that, if adam is any indication, have the arsenal of a medium-sized military base in their forearms.

That is exactly what I though. It's like going out onto the streets and exclusively antagonizing the people who are openly carrying guns.
Sure they'll get in hella trouble if they react, but if they do react you probably won't be in any condition to laugh at them for it.

And that anti-aug cop partner dude. I was wishing for an option to knock him out and dragged him to that underground aug-doctor, and force a few put in him just to see how he liked it.

Darth Rosenberg:
Snip

Heh. No game ever benefited from standing in the shadow of a classic huh? Well you've given me a lot to think about. I was impressed by Human Revolution, but I'd like to be impressed some more. If Invisible War was considered dumbed down compared to Dues Ex, then I really need to see what it has to offer.

I mean, to be honest, what you described is exactly how Black Lives Matter sees racism. Rachel Dolzeal and Sean King are the equivalent of the pacemaker-equipped person being "augmented".

But I don't expect Eidos to have that sort of subtlety, so it's safe to determine that it is basically just bad writing.

My biggest issue with the cutscenes triggered by takedowns was that if two characters are close to each other when you do them, the game seems to semi-randomly choose which one you use the takedown on.

there were two or three times in the game where there was a friendly NPC being hurt or threatened by an enemy, and I would be forced to reload because, even though I made sure I was practically running into the enemy before pushing the button, the cutscene would trigger showing Jensen taking down the goddamn friendly NPC instead. DX

erttheking:
Heh. No game ever benefited from standing in the shadow of a classic huh? Well you've given me a lot to think about. I was impressed by Human Revolution, but I'd like to be impressed some more. If Invisible War was considered dumbed down compared to Dues Ex, then I really need to see what it has to offer.

...of course, I could just be an IW fanboy disagreeing with Deus Ex fanboys, so don't trust a single thing I say/said. ;-) If you watched that clip and liked what you saw, however, then there's probably a fair bit to enjoy about IW even now, as those kinds of conversations are obviously included for each dogmatic path.

It was a rather remarkably ugly game design wise, though... as in the colours and many of the designs for buildings and weapons. Oh, Laura Bailey voices the female PC, btw, so that's another small mark in its favour, even if it's not exactly her greatest or most expressive role.

Don Incognito:
For 2000, Deus Ex's voice acting was out of this world, when it came to video games. Today, of course, it is garbage. That's one area where the new games excel, of course--the pretty bells and whistles that increase immersion.

Whilst that ideally shouldn't be an issue, can you understand how it is for some (hell, even IW would appear pretty bad compared to HR)? There are some purists who can play older games and not have any issue with the visuals, interfaces, and production values, but I see it is as only natural that those kinds of details provide stumbling blocks for newcomers to older series. I adore Morrowind, and having played it when it came out, can overlook most of its aged elements. But I could understand if it seems unplayable for various reasons to those familiar with Skyrim or Fallout 4.

Even today, the level design of the original stands out--Hell's Kitchen and Hong Kong feel nearly as big as the Detroit hub of Human Revolution, and just as stuffed with things to do and discover. As I said, IW's biggest failing; Upper Seattle is barely as big as Sarif Industries.

If a smaller scale suits what's actually done in that area in terms of story and gameplay, is that much of a negative?

I actually haven't played the original in about five years, and the sequel in about ten; this thread is making me want to fire them back up.

I bought DE with a mind to do a trilogy run as an excuse to replay HR, but clearly never got very far... It may sound like heresy, but if DE has decent controller support, I'd probably try to return to it and see it out. Me and keyboards/mouses just don't mix with gaming.

(just googled briefly; huh, seems there are ways to play it with a pad. now I just need a pad that'll work with my PC... ah, nifty, the Elite pad's the only one I actually own right now, and apparently that already works with Windows)

Darth Rosenberg:
Snip

I did like the concepts that JC brought up, it was just a bit annoying that Alex didn't really offer any counter-arguments, even half baked ones.

JC: Philosophy.

Alex: Ok.

I mean I saw one clip from the original Dues Ex in which JC argues with Morpheus. He doesn't get the BEST counter-arguments, but it's clear he does disagree with the concepts Morpheus is bringing up. And Morpheus' arguments and ideas about humanity are some of the kind that have become even more relevant since the game came out.

But personally, I think BOTH games are probably worth checking out. Although they're both in dire need of HD remakes in which most things stay the same, but they get new graphics and better voice acting.

erttheking:
But personally, I think BOTH games are probably worth checking out. Although they're both in dire need of HD remakes in which most things stay the same, but they get new graphics and better voice acting.

My mind immediately thought of the Silent Hill HD Collection and I laughed.

Though, to my knowledge, Square doesn't make HD remasters (Aside from FF X and XII). Everything is either is a reboot or a remake. And, now I have a sinking feeling they're going to "remake" Deus Ex because why not?

Sorry, for some reason, my phone decided to double post.

I really hate it when I fall in a dumpsters full of bells and air horns while I am trying to do more conspiracies.

I thought the augs v. naturals thing was more analogous to Islamophobia than racism, in particular because one can choose to be augmented. Having said that, I don't expect the game to exactly mirror any particular real-life form of prejudice.

The setting is really perfectly set up to allow both the player and Jensen to reasonably support either side of the argument, since Jensen was augmented involuntarily, and "the incident" gives people good reason to be wary of augs, but holds the augs blameless for it.

Unfortunately, the actual game doesn't really make effective use of that set up. There were hints of the game trying to address issues with nuance - such as the aug who had been disowned by his family because he killed his grandchild during the incident - but mostly anti-aug prejudice is just presented as bad.

Perhaps nuance was one of the victims of executive meddling.

Don Incognito:
I liked the game quite a bit. (Aside from the DLC issues and such, which I can ignore by not buying it.) Interesting characters, the main storyline was fine, the side missions were very good, very nice aesthetic, fun stealth gameplay.

However, there are some major limitations in prequels just by their nature, and the DE prequels are doing nothing to avoid them--indeed, MD steers right into them. At the end, Adam tells Alex he is going to bring the people behind the conspiracy into the light, namely Joseph Manderley and Bob Page.

But we already know he's going to do no such thing; in fact, they are only going to become more powerful in the years to come, whereas Adam and his allies (with the possible exception of Samizdat, merging into Silhouette) disappear. Nor will he be exposing others behind the scenes, like Simons or DeBeers or DuClare or Everett. The best he can do is take out low level terrorists like he did in this game; setting him up to take down forces we know he won't take down paints Square Enix into a very small corner.

Yeah, I tend to groan now when I hear something is going to be a prequel. We already know what's going to happen later, so you're pretty much locked into certain events. Which means you either have to dance around that to create suspense or you cheat and retcon events from the original story. One of the reasons Star Trek Enterprise killed the entire franchise for me(because it did both, and through in some shitty Time Travel Hijinks to boot).

Of course, more infuriating is when a story ends on a cliffhanger and then the next move is to go make a prequel, pushing back any resolution even farther(assuming we get any at all). Yeah, I'm looking at you Twin Peaks! Sure, sometimes the prequel is used to set up the stories closing act but most of the time it seems like the writer wrote themselves into a corner and is trying to buy time with a prequel.

Anyway,back to the OP, I think I'm skipping this one. I found HR okay but never really got into it the same way I did the original, for numerous reasons, and now that it seems obvious that they're gonna milk the prequels for all their worth(by having 3, maybe 4 of them including HR), I just stopped caring.

Arnoxthe1:
First of all, I've never played this game, so take what I say with a grain of salt. BUT, the racism against augs seems pretty fucking on-par with reality. Since when has racism EVER made logical sense? Furthermore,

Carmine Falcone (Batman Begins):
This is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand.

Also, just because you're not racist doesn't mean a lot of people in this world aren't.

Finally, Yahtzee wanting this game to tackle the same themes the first Deus Ex had smells like bullshit. I'm sure if they did that, he'd say instead, "Oh, they're just retreading the same ground, the unoriginal twats."

He did address that. Is it really racism to be afraid of augs when augs have a serious chance of going berserk against their own will and killing someone?

Rethreading the same ground is fine - don't fix what isn't broken. It's rethreading the same ground with no improvements that he has issues with.

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