Man Steals EVE Online Cash to Pay Real Debts

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LOL that game says its legal to scam other plays for their credits ? LOL thats lousy hehe. All though we know that sort of stuff is fun, but lol, they encourage it ?

Just to say, I have money invested in E Bank, and I know thats its safe.

E Bank looks after something in the region of 2.1 Trillion isk, and can easily make back 200 billion by simply liquidating some of there asset's.

As for Ricdic himself, I don't blame him for taking the money, but then adding to the shadier side of EVE (people selling isk for rl money) is something that cannot be forgiven, and i'm glad that he got banned, and I hope they find the people who bought it. I'll never understand how EVE still has this problem when CCP themselves sell isk, in a roundabout sort of way. Suppose its just cheaper.

GamerPhate:
LOL that game says its legal to scam other plays for their credits ? LOL thats lousy hehe. All thought I know that sort of stuff is fun, but lol, they encourage it ?

In EVE, its legal to do anything, well, pretty much anything.

CCP makes the world, you make the game.

The Shade:

CantFaketheFunk:
Said funds went to cover [...] medical expenses for his son.

I have a hard time condemning him, if for no other reason than this. Wouldn't we have done the same?

Agreed. Get banned on a game or pay medical expenses.

Does anyone really believe the lie about his kid's medical expenses? Are you people that easy to fool?
Well I guess that's why people like him succeed.

Jsnoopy:
holy shit, he just made 5,000 bucks for playing a video game! Makes me want to start a giant, trusted bank in an mmo then betray the trust of all my friends and investors...

If it had been me, I would have cleaned the bank out then canceled my account so they couldn't even ban me as punishment.

It's a bloody GAME, if you're stupid enough to let other players hold large sums of your in game money, you deserve to lose it.

Ive never played EVE online, but if a game is this indepth and he actually managed to sell fake nothingness for money the man deserves a medal not a ban from the game.

Wow. Now I really wanna play it. It is not boring and static like most MMOs.
As for the guy, he spent it on a house for his family and his sons medical bills. Good on him. Though I would have robbed the freaking bank blind. Seriously, I would have taken every last cent/ISK I could.

MaxTheReaper:

The Shade:

I have a hard time condemning him, if for no other reason than this. Wouldn't we have done the same?

Well, no.
I'd have done it just for shits and giggles.

But I can appreciate his reasons and I don't condemn his choice.

Also that's just plain awesome.

I would have done it just to laugh and give them all the finger XD. If he can't make money to support his family maybe he should stop paying for EVE(i don't remember is it P2P like before?)

Nutcase:

Terminalchaos:
[quote="The Shade" post="7.123446.2512336"]
He's a thief. If it had stayed in game it would be part of the cutthroat nature of the game (and he'd merely be a virtual thief), but by taking those assets out of game he became a thief. Even if some of the expenses went to pay for his kids med bills he still didn't use ALL the money for that cause and it doesn't negate the fact that it was essentially stolen. Virtual or not the man is a thief and he's lucky they don't prosecute him for violating game rules-

Prosecute? What, should the Internet Police turn up at his doorstep and slap him with a fine of OVER 9000 lols?

No the Australian equivalent of the IRS should take a nice hard look into his accounts and make sure he pays full taxes onhis gains. If he doesn't comply he should be prosecuted for tax fraud.

As I said earlier its not what he did int he game that makes it wrong, it was the fact that he turned it into real life currency that makes him a scumbag thief. If he didn't report the income he is guilty of tax fraud.

asinann:

Jsnoopy:
holy shit, he just made 5,000 bucks for playing a video game! Makes me want to start a giant, trusted bank in an mmo then betray the trust of all my friends and investors...

If it had been me, I would have cleaned the bank out then canceled my account so they couldn't even ban me as punishment.

Actually that would have been impossible. The 200 billion Ricdic made off with was probably the maximum his bank-character could get access too. E-Bank isn't stupid, they had security systems in place for just this sort of eventuality. No single banker has access to more than a fraction of the banks total assets at any given time. Most of it is actually invested too. (since you do get intrest on your ISK at EBank)

As for the reported run on the bank, EBank never lost solvency, they could have paid back every single player with an account without issues. It was just the banks own assets that were hurt by this scam.

I have an EBank account myself, there's not that much money in it, but that's mostly because I don't have that much. =) (there's around 70 million in the bank, and around 680 million in my Wallet)

EBank is still running, and I doubt they'll go under. There are plenty of scammers and such out there in EVE, just means you need to watch what you invest in and use your brain, and never put more at risk than you can afford to lose. And that goes for everything in EVE.
Scamming, embezzeling, blackmail, it's technically all legal providing it does not involve real world currency. Since RMT is illegal.

It's not fun to lose stuff, but you knew the risks and were willing to take them.

nathan-dts:

The Shade:

CantFaketheFunk:
Said funds went to cover [...] medical expenses for his son.

I have a hard time condemning him, if for no other reason than this. Wouldn't we have done the same?

Agreed. Get banned on a game or pay medical expenses.

You are still stealing so its just not a ban as your punishment. Whatever penalties your ethos proscribes for thieves, this man deserves.

econael:
Does anyone really believe the lie about his kid's medical expenses? Are you people that easy to fool?
Well I guess that's why people like him succeed.

I don't. this guy is just bawing about his kid so everyone won't condemn him for the thief he is. He never said anything about it being his last hope or no alternatives.

avykins:
Wow. Now I really wanna play it. It is not boring and static like most MMOs.
As for the guy, he spent it on a house for his family and his sons medical bills. Good on him. Though I would have robbed the freaking bank blind. Seriously, I would have taken every last cent/ISK I could.

Sounds like the reasoning of a thief to me. Should I go on an online robbing spree just to help pay for my friend's cancer treatments? No. At least not until every other avenue is tried first.

Terminalchaos:

You are still stealing so its just not a ban as your punishment. Whatever penalties your ethos proscribes for thieves, this man deserves.

Okay.
He should get a stern talking-to.

Arehexes:

I would have done it just to laugh and give them all the finger XD. If he can't make money to support his family maybe he should stop paying for EVE(i don't remember is it P2P like before?)

Probably.
Most MMOs tend to be.

I cannot condemn this man. He committed one of the a crime that has very little real impact on its victims? First off they are playing a game So no one is going to be unable to feed their kids because of these events. The game caters to a Machiavellian society where it is socially acceptable and almost expected for individuals to commit crimes for the sake of power. In WoW if you ninjaed something you would be blacklisted. The only crime here that was committed was against the Eula which the developer banned him for.

avykins:
Wow. Now I really wanna play it. It is not boring and static like most MMOs.
As for the guy, he spent it on a house for his family and his sons medical bills. Good on him. Though I would have robbed the freaking bank blind. Seriously, I would have taken every last cent/ISK I could.

He took as much as he could get, all the money not tied up is on numerous seperate account's.

samsonguy920:
If it is true about how he used the money, then I say it's well worth the ban. People who do it just for greed: I have a bat I want you to meet...real oak.

Echolocating:
I wonder if those who purchased the ISK are banned as well? If not, it seems like a broken policing system to me... or a conveniently one-sided system.

The accounts were banned, but that doesn't stop those slimes from using resources they already have to make new accounts.
As for those asking if Australia has medical coverage for the poor, I believe it works like Medicaid in the US: Covers everything or most of, but once you are out of the fire, you owe most or all of it back. Only thing that gets you out of that is the grim reaper.
And for those who feel the need to judge: The guy knew what he was doing, and that he was sacrificing his account to do it, therefore paying the consequences. I would sacrifice any of my measly MMO accounts if it came down to someone that close to me's life. If an MMO account is more important to you than that, I pity you and those who feel close to you.

It's not the account its the ethics. The man became a thief to pay for what he did. Whether or not you agree that the ends justify the means doesn't negate the fact that he stole. He made a conscious decision and valued the $ over his account and any ethical integrity he may have had.

Richard is just a lowly gutter thief with an interesting means and seemingly sympathetic ends (though he may have just been lazy and not sought after alternative help.)

psijac:
I cannot condemn this man. He committed one of the a crime that has very little real impact on its victims? First off they are playing a game So no one is going to be unable to feed their kids because of these events. The game caters to a Machiavellian society where it is socially acceptable and almost expected for individuals to commit crimes for the sake of power. In WoW if you ninjaed something you would be blacklisted. The only crime here that was committed was against the Eula which the developer banned him for.

By violating the Eula and making the money real he took what was an excusable action in-game and turned it into a criminal action out of game. It reminds me of the con they pulled in Office Space- it wasn't supposed to hurt anyone but it was still theft.

MaxTheReaper:

Terminalchaos:

You are still stealing so its just not a ban as your punishment. Whatever penalties your ethos proscribes for thieves, this man deserves.

Okay.
He should get a stern talking-to.

That's more leniency than I assumed you would show. Personally I think thieves should firstly have to give back all stolen goods then face whatever other punishment is proscribed - if they're recalcitrant a good stern talking to or some community service may be in order. If they are habitual thieves (he said he would do it again if given the chance) more may be needed to discourage the theft.

I need to reiterate: if Richard had kept the $ in-game I'd be defending him- he was just playing the game. He didn't; he got real life involved and thus should be held to different standards than the game's.

Terminalchaos:
That's more leniency than I assumed you would show. Personally I think thieves should firstly have to give back all stolen goods then face whatever other punishment is proscribed - if they're recalcitrant a good stern talking to or some community service may be in order. If they are habitual thieves (he said he would do it again if given the chance) more may be needed to discourage the theft.

I need to reiterate: if Richard had kept the $ in-game I'd be defending him- he was just playing the game. He didn't; he got real life involved and thus should be held to the different standards than the game's.

Completely agree with you on your last point Terminal, if he'd kept it in-game, he'd be fine, but he didn't.

I think that CCP should prosecute him RL if they can, I don't know if they can use breaching a EULA that way, his reason may have been just, but his methods were not and he deserves punishment. More than being banned that is.

Mardy:
Sucks to be him I guess.

What sucks about profiting thousands of dollars?

Baron Khaine:
I think that CCP should prosecute him RL if they can, I don't know if they can use breaching a EULA that way, his reason may have been just, but his methods were not and he deserves punishment. More than being banned that is.

They couldn't, even if they wanted too.
Banning him was the most they were allowed to do given the breach of the EULA.
No EULA will hold up in court, and while RMT transactions are outlawed in the EULA, they are not in the real world.
What he did was a simple business transaction.
He had a commodity an entity wanted, and was payed for delivering said commodity.
That this transaction was illegal in the game world involved is of no concequence here.
He was banned for that part of the action, and that's the only thing CCP could have done.

Yeah it goes down to the ends justify the means - its like torturing to get info to save yer country but with more sympathetic means than torture.

If all other avenues were closed to get my kid medical expenses I may steal to do it but I doubt I couldn't do a fundraiser or get the money by not stealing if I put some effort into it. Making the house payment was just greed on top of need. He obviously had a computer and other assets he could have used before resorting to theft. If he had used ALL the $ for his kid it would be slightly better to cuz then it would just be one sympathetic end instead of a semiselfish end and a nonselfish one.

And if I had to steal to save a family member or fiend I sure as hell would try and do soem charity work or something to make up for it instead of just saying yeah I'd do it again though I feel bad.

I think in the end the man should have to do a crapton of community service. He thinks the ends justifies the means so forcing him to help society would be fine because the overall gain is more than the temporary loss of his freedom (at least by his reasoning applied to him outside of his crime.)

Azhrarn-101:

Baron Khaine:
I think that CCP should prosecute him RL if they can, I don't know if they can use breaching a EULA that way, his reason may have been just, but his methods were not and he deserves punishment. More than being banned that is.

They couldn't, even if they wanted too.
Banning him was the most they were allowed to do given the breach of the EULA.
No EULA will hold up in court, and while RMT transactions are outlawed in the EULA, they are not in the real world.
What he did was a simple business transaction.
He had a commodity an entity wanted, and was payed for delivering said commodity.
That this transaction was illegal in the game world involved is of no concequence here.
He was banned for that part of the action, and that's the only thing CCP could have done.

Yeah but the transaction could have been illegal if he didn't report it properly and pay full taxes on his theft. I don't know where Australian law stands on civil suits but if it were in America that sounds like a possible civil suit to me. People can be sued for legal actions if they were found to be malicious and damaging.

Guy scams somebody, ebays the loot, gets banned. Happens freaking all the time in pretty much every mmo but because it's eve it's suddenly news worthy?

Terminalchaos:
Yeah it goes down to the ends justify the means - its like torturing to get info to save yer country but with more sympathetic means than torture.

If all other avenues were closed to get my kid medical expenses I may steal to do it but I doubt I couldn't do a fundraiser or get the money by not stealing if I put some effort into it. Making the house payment was just greed on top of need. He obviously had a computer and other assets he could have used before resorting to theft. If he had used ALL the $ for his kid it would be slightly better to cuz then it would just be one sympathetic end instead of a semiselfish end and a nonselfish one.

And if I had to steal to save a family member or fiend I sure as hell would try and do soem charity work or something to make up for it instead of just saying yeah I'd do it again though I feel bad.

I think in the end the man should have to do a crapton of community service. He thinks the ends justifies the means so forcing him to help society would be fine because the overall gain is more than the temporary loss of his freedom (at least by his reasoning applied to him outside of his crime.)

Azhrarn-101:

Baron Khaine:
I think that CCP should prosecute him RL if they can, I don't know if they can use breaching a EULA that way, his reason may have been just, but his methods were not and he deserves punishment. More than being banned that is.

They couldn't, even if they wanted too.
Banning him was the most they were allowed to do given the breach of the EULA.
No EULA will hold up in court, and while RMT transactions are outlawed in the EULA, they are not in the real world.
What he did was a simple business transaction.
He had a commodity an entity wanted, and was payed for delivering said commodity.
That this transaction was illegal in the game world involved is of no concequence here.
He was banned for that part of the action, and that's the only thing CCP could have done.

Yeah but the transaction could have been illegal if he didn't report it properly and pay full taxes on his theft. I don't know where Australian law stands on civil suits but if it were in America that sounds like a possible civil suit to me. People can be sued for legal actions if they were found to be malicious and damaging.

Well taxes are a different matter obviously, but criminally he did nothing wrong.
Technically he could be in for some tax-evasion then. Unless he payed taxes on the transaction already, which is certainly possible as the RMT-person was representing a legal entity.

Azhrarn-101:

Terminalchaos:
Yeah it goes down to the ends justify the means - its like torturing to get info to save yer country but with more sympathetic means than torture.

If all other avenues were closed to get my kid medical expenses I may steal to do it but I doubt I couldn't do a fundraiser or get the money by not stealing if I put some effort into it. Making the house payment was just greed on top of need. He obviously had a computer and other assets he could have used before resorting to theft. If he had used ALL the $ for his kid it would be slightly better to cuz then it would just be one sympathetic end instead of a semiselfish end and a nonselfish one.

And if I had to steal to save a family member or fiend I sure as hell would try and do soem charity work or something to make up for it instead of just saying yeah I'd do it again though I feel bad.

I think in the end the man should have to do a crapton of community service. He thinks the ends justifies the means so forcing him to help society would be fine because the overall gain is more than the temporary loss of his freedom (at least by his reasoning applied to him outside of his crime.)

Azhrarn-101:

Baron Khaine:
I think that CCP should prosecute him RL if they can, I don't know if they can use breaching a EULA that way, his reason may have been just, but his methods were not and he deserves punishment. More than being banned that is.

They couldn't, even if they wanted too.
Banning him was the most they were allowed to do given the breach of the EULA.
No EULA will hold up in court, and while RMT transactions are outlawed in the EULA, they are not in the real world.
What he did was a simple business transaction.
He had a commodity an entity wanted, and was payed for delivering said commodity.
That this transaction was illegal in the game world involved is of no concequence here.
He was banned for that part of the action, and that's the only thing CCP could have done.

Yeah but the transaction could have been illegal if he didn't report it properly and pay full taxes on his theft. I don't know where Australian law stands on civil suits but if it were in America that sounds like a possible civil suit to me. People can be sued for legal actions if they were found to be malicious and damaging.

Well taxes are a different matter obviously, but criminally he did nothing wrong.
Technically he could be in for some tax-evasion then. Unless he payed taxes on the transaction already, which is certainly possible as the RMT-person was representing a legal entity.

Is breaching the Eula a civil or criminal matter? Well I hope Australia has civil laws that will allow them to sue the thief.

Terminalchaos:

Is breaching the Eula a civil or criminal matter? Well I hope Australia has civil laws that will allow them to sue the thief.

I doubt it's either, a EULA is just part of the license to use a digital product and carries no legal weight on its own. A EULA breach as such is not something you could go to court for.

(well, not entirely true. Blizzard did get a civil case going against that person who designed and sold a bot for WoW, and won too.)

But I think CCP doesn't have that option here. The real world transaction was most likely completely legal, the in-game component wasn't, but the EULA is not a legal document.

Azhrarn-101:

Terminalchaos:

Is breaching the Eula a civil or criminal matter? Well I hope Australia has civil laws that will allow them to sue the thief.

I doubt it's either, a EULA is just part of the license to use a digital product and carries no legal weight on its own. A EULA breach as such is not something you could go to court for.

(well, not entirely true. Blizzard did get a civil case going against that person who designed and sold a bot for WoW, and won too.)

But I think CCP doesn't have that option here. The real world transaction was most likely completely legal, the in-game component wasn't, but the EULA is not a legal document.

Then what type of document is it? Why would they even bother making a Eula if it wasn't at least partially binding? Now I really wish I knew an Australian lawyer so I could see what they could do tot he guy. If blizzard used a Eula breach for a civil suit why couldn't CCP do the same? At the very least it would keep the guy in court and occupy some $ so it wasn't a complete gain for him (as well as being a deterrent.)

yah, eve is the most realistic mmog by now

Terminalchaos:
Then what type of document is it? Why would they even bother making a Eula if it wasn't at least partially binding? Now I really wish I knew an Australian lawyer so I could see what they could do tot he guy. If blizzard used a Eula breach for a civil suit why couldn't CCP do the same? At the very least it would keep the guy in court and occupy some $ so it wasn't a complete gain for him (as well as being a deterrent.)

a EULA is technically just a fancy wall of text in which you promise not to use the product the EULA is for in a manner that is illegal as defined by the terms of the agreement.
No EULA, anywhere carries any true legal weight.
It is often treated by companies as a contract, but it is not, since usually you do not have the option to preview the contract before purchase, or to even return the product should you not agree to the terms defined in the agreement.
(many PC games and software now have this due to one-time online activation. you can't return them anymore)

And because a EULA does not carry any legal weight, it doesn't need to follow the rules of a contract either. The things I mentioned above would be mandatory in most countries on the planet if a EULA did carry any weight of law.

The reason Blizz got their way was simply that this person was selling a third-party program that interfered directly with blizzard's product and he was making money from it. (it technically was copyright infringement because of how it worked)

What occured here is that a player stole a large quantity of ingame currency (which is allowed) and then sold it to a third party. (most likely a gold-selling website of some kind)
That was not allowed according to the EULA, but I doubt they could use that as a ground for a civil suit against him.

GamerPhate:
LOL that game says its legal to scam other plays for their credits ? LOL thats lousy hehe. All though we know that sort of stuff is fun, but lol, they encourage it ?

EVE is pretty ruthless in that regard. It's player population (the capsuleers) are essentially hyper-capitalists, willing to do just about anything for money and the ingame governments don't have the power to really stop them from doing it.
A single capsuleer vessel can take out a conventional fleet many times it's own size with relative ease.
Enforcing law among a group of people who are just about demi-gods with the wealth of entire planetary economies, compared to a normal person that is and you see why enforcing the law isn't exactly an easy prospect.
Add the fact that they technically can't die either and you see why the RP-background very easily accomodates things like scamming and randsoming.

Capsuleers can be bastards because very few things other than more capsuleers have the power to stop them.
An average Level 4 mission-runner will kill more people in a single mission than most single battles in World War 2 have done. Each ship has a crew, especially non-capsuleer ships, which can have crews of thousands.

Azhrarn-101:

Terminalchaos:
Then what type of document is it? Why would they even bother making a Eula if it wasn't at least partially binding? Now I really wish I knew an Australian lawyer so I could see what they could do tot he guy. If blizzard used a Eula breach for a civil suit why couldn't CCP do the same? At the very least it would keep the guy in court and occupy some $ so it wasn't a complete gain for him (as well as being a deterrent.)

a EULA is technically just a fancy wall of text in which you promise not to use the product the EULA is for in a manner that is illegal as defined by the terms of the agreement.
No EULA, anywhere carries any true legal weight.
It is often treated by companies as a contract, but it is not, since usually you do not have the option to preview the contract before purchase, or to even return the product should you not agree to the terms defined in the agreement.
(many PC games and software now have this due to one-time online activation. you can't return them anymore)

And because a EULA does not carry any legal weight, it doesn't need to follow the rules of a contract either. The things I mentioned above would be mandatory in most countries on the planet if a EULA did carry any weight of law.

The reason Blizz got their way was simply that this person was selling a third-party program that interfered directly with blizzard's product and he was making money from it. (it technically was copyright infringement because of how it worked)

What occured here is that a player stole a large quantity of ingame currency (which is allowed) and then sold it to a third party. (most likely a gold-selling website of some kind)
That was not allowed according to the EULA, but I doubt they could use that as a ground for a civil suit against him.

Well said. I don't know Australian law. However I can see them establishing a civil case if they can prove damage and malicious intent. As I said though I don't know Australian law so it may be different than America as far as the criteria for civil suits.

Terminalchaos:

Well said. I don't know Australian law. However I can see them establishing a civil case if they can prove damage and malicious intent. As I said though I don't know Australian law so it may be different than America as far as the criteria for civil suits.

Neither do I, and perhaps it is possible to persue a civil suit against this person, but then CCP needs to weigh their options. Is it worth it to invest money in a suit that may not even be possible to try and reclaim some of the money lost due to this breach in the EULA or just accept the loss of several thousand dollars worth of virtual currency (which cost CCP nothing), and just keep the account (and I assume the man's CC) banned.

Azhrarn-101:

Terminalchaos:

Well said. I don't know Australian law. However I can see them establishing a civil case if they can prove damage and malicious intent. As I said though I don't know Australian law so it may be different than America as far as the criteria for civil suits.

Neither do I, and perhaps it is possible to persue a civil suit against this person, but then CCP needs to weigh their options. Is it worth it to invest money in a suit that may not even be possible to try and reclaim some of the money lost due to this breach in the EULA or just accept the loss of several thousand dollars worth of virtual currency (which cost CCP nothing), and just keep the account (and I assume the man's CC) banned.

What would be cool is if they put it to a vote or trial on EVE itself to determine whether or not to take action. Then the community would feel involved.

Terminalchaos:
What would be cool is if they put it to a vote or trial on EVE itself to determine whether or not to take action. Then the community would feel involved.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the CSM was already involved.
(Council of Stellar Management, an elected body of players whom CCP consults about the game and events around the game and policy. Elections are once a year)

Azhrarn-101:

Terminalchaos:
What would be cool is if they put it to a vote or trial on EVE itself to determine whether or not to take action. Then the community would feel involved.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the CSM was already involved.
(Council of Stellar Management, an elected body of players whom CCP consults about the game and events around the game and policy. Elections are once a year)

The different levels of social manipulation make me want to try this game.

I wonder if EVE has its equivalent of an Illuminati and if so how does one join. Obviously if there were one they wouldn't likely say so on a board but its fun to think of.

To be honest, if I'd found out someone had took my VIRTUAL money on a game (money which is apparently easy enough to make) to pay for a home and medical expenses for their ill son... I wouldn't be able to care less and tell them they're more than welcome to it.

It's a game, his son is real.

Terminalchaos:

nathan-dts:

The Shade:

CantFaketheFunk:
Said funds went to cover [...] medical expenses for his son.

I have a hard time condemning him, if for no other reason than this. Wouldn't we have done the same?

Agreed. Get banned on a game or pay medical expenses.

You are still stealing so its just not a ban as your punishment. Whatever penalties your ethos proscribes for thieves, this man deserves.

Stealing the in game currency is allowed in the rules. Exchanging online currency for real currency isn't against the law.

nathan-dts:

Terminalchaos:

nathan-dts:

The Shade:

CantFaketheFunk:
Said funds went to cover [...] medical expenses for his son.

I have a hard time condemning him, if for no other reason than this. Wouldn't we have done the same?

Agreed. Get banned on a game or pay medical expenses.

You are still stealing so its just not a ban as your punishment. Whatever penalties your ethos proscribes for thieves, this man deserves.

Stealing the in game currency is allowed in the rules. Exchanging online currency for real currency isn't against the law.

Exchanging online currency for real currency is against the rules. It is also against the law if the taxes aren't handled properly. Either way the man became a thief when he transferred the online money to irl money.

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