Valve Talks TF2 Engineer Update Failures

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Valve Talks TF2 Engineer Update Failures

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The Team Fortress 2 Engineer Update may be a ways away, but Valve is willing to spill the beans on one thing the developers tried that didn't work.

Are you wondering why, out of all the classes, Valve saved the Engineer Update for last? It's because of all the classes, the Engineer "creates a larger footprint in the game than any other class," says a post on the official TF2 blog. Because Valve had so much to work with in the Engineer Update, it created a rather "daunting" list of possibilities for everyone's favorite hardhat-wearing Texan.

Given the amount of possibilities, it seems Valve is willing to share some of the scrapped ideas that won't be making it into the final product, shedding some interesting light on how the Team Fortress 2 design team approaches things.

The first scrapped idea unveiled is the Repair Node, a building that the Engineer would be able to construct replacing any of his other structures (Sentry Gun, Dispenser, and Teleporter). The Repair Node would automatically repair any of the buildings around it as long as it had energy, but would have to spend time recharging once it was drained. The purpose of the Repair Node was to make Engineers feel like they didn't have to spend so much time babysitting their nests, and could go out to blast enemies with their shotgun or to collect additional scrap metal.

Unfortunately, the Repair Node presented complications: Not only did it make it easier for Engineers to create and defend choke points, but it also made Valve realize how crucial Dispensers and Teleporters were to the game. The Sentry Gun may be the most iconic image of the TF2 Engineer, but a lack of Dispensers and Teleporters was arguably more important from a gameplay perspective.

Without Dispensers, says Valve, "[t]eams were more fragile, metal was harder to get to the front lines, and team rally points were harder to define." Furthermore, the pacing of some maps "became completely broken" without Teleporters in the mix. "Teams weren't able to push as effectively and the lines of battle moved closer to the spawn points. This lack of flexibility meant that attackers weren't able to hold gains and matches took longer to complete."

And there were important social changes, too - teams saw an Engineer who wasn't building a Dispenser or Teleporter along the same lines as they would see a Medic who refused to heal: What's the point, and why are you on our team?

It just goes to show you that in a game like TF2, even a relatively small change can have huge repercussions on gameplay. And that's just one item - hopefully, Valve will be pulling the cloth off of some more failed Engineer Update goodies soon enough.

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Also an excellent reason is that...

Well, remember Pyro update, Sniper/Spy update, Scout update?

7 engies on each team...?

Abedeus:
Also an excellent reason is that...

Well, remember Pyro update, Sniper/Spy update, Scout update?

7 engies on each team...?

same for the medic update, and the heavy update. kinda hard to avoid that, no matter how they do it. that's why it's good to keep servers favorited that have class limits.

They'll likely replace the sentry gun with a oil pump, meaning the Texan Engie can merely sell out the other team.

Still, cant be as bad as that sodding bow and arrow.

Thats a pretty good, Would probably better if I had the game and understood the full workings of it... Fuck I need to buy this game so badly.

I cant really think of anything they can add to the engineer to make it better. Maybe a joke weapon or two like the jarate?

It looks like Valve really puts a ton of thought into their class updates which I find extremely comforting. I just hope it doesn't take FOREVER to release the Engie update. I want my Anti-Spy Sapper tool damnit!!!

Teams full of Engies farming achievements. I'll definately be avoiding TF2 for that period.

And besides the Engineer is comparitively easier to play than any other class. It only really tests your basic motor skills.

orangebandguy:
Teams full of Engies farming achievements. I'll definately be avoiding TF2 for that period.

NO MAN IT'LL BE AWESOME.

Going up against 7+ Sentry guns/dispensers all at once?

Easy farming points for an Heavy/Soldier+Medic team. Pewpew!

Amnestic:

orangebandguy:
Teams full of Engies farming achievements. I'll definately be avoiding TF2 for that period.

NO MAN IT'LL BE AWESOME.

Going up against 7+ Sentry guns/dispensers all at once?

Easy farming points for an Heavy/Soldier+Medic team. Pewpew!

Only if you have a Spy who is stupid enough to risk attacking 7 wrenched engineers at once. Because otherwise, a Demoman with the Scottish Resistance would be better. 2 nades per sentry... mrrr.

Amnestic:

orangebandguy:
Teams full of Engies farming achievements. I'll definately be avoiding TF2 for that period.

NO MAN IT'LL BE AWESOME.

Going up against 7+ Sentry guns/dispensers all at once?

Easy farming points for an Heavy/Soldier+Medic team. Pewpew!

Well I guess I'll finally get the Ubercharge a demo/get ubercharged as a demo and destroy 5 buildings achievements at long last.

All this time after the Medic update and I still don't have it!

I'd like to see some other failed upgrades, for any of the classes.

Article:
In other news, our minds were blown this week when we saw Andrew Kepple's amazing Spy & Pyro cartoon. We've decided this is final proof that TF2 fans are smarter, more creative, and much better looking than fans of all other video games.

I whole heartily agree.

DROP THE PS3 BOYCOTT ALREADY!! YOU BUMDERS!
...............Im, Im sorry about that.
An improved shottie would work.

Abedeus:
7 engies on each team...?

It's like I'm playing 2fort. =D

Screw the updates, I'd rather see them finish the Medic and Pyro videos, then get on with Half Life 2 Episode 3 or Half-Life 3, whatever the heck they're not doing.

Me55enger:
They'll likely replace the sentry gun with a oil pump, meaning the Texan Engie can merely sell out the other team.

Still, cant be as bad as that sodding bow and arrow.

bow and arrow aren't bad but the oil pump is brilliant

Ninjamedic:
DROP THE PS3 BOYCOTT ALREADY!! YOU BUMDERS!
...............Im, Im sorry about that.
An improved shottie would work.

Not until Sony desides to change the system architecture of their console to something that's easier to develop for.

Hm, I wonder what they could possibly do that would make a difference. We'll probably see a weapon change as that's pretty much a given. One thing that I think would be cool is the ability to construct bunkers. It switches vulnerability to sapping to needing actual teammates to make it effective.

Ninjamedic:
DROP THE PS3 BOYCOTT ALREADY!! YOU BUMDERS!
...............Im, Im sorry about that.
An improved shottie would work.

A shotgun that uses up metal when it fires would be good, the metal of course giving it improved damage at the cost of 15-a-shot.

@John Funk: How you are still posting news when you could have been playing a match of SC2 is beyond me. Your impulse control must be legendary...

orangebandguy:
Teams full of Engies farming achievements. I'll definately be avoiding TF2 for that period.

And besides the Engineer is comparitively easier to play than any other class. It only really tests your basic motor skills.

I disagree enge like spy is one of the classes that it becomes much harder to play when people get better, the sentry is powerful sure, but it's dumber then your mum on acid, and twice a slow, I can usually circle jerk a level three if it's left alone and not up against a wall when I'm a pyro on my own.

randommaster:

Ninjamedic:
DROP THE PS3 BOYCOTT ALREADY!! YOU BUMDERS!
...............Im, Im sorry about that.
An improved shottie would work.

Not until Sony desides to change the system architecture of their console to something that's easier to develop for.

Hm, I wonder what they could possibly do that would make a difference. We'll probably see a weapon change as that's pretty much a given. One thing that I think would be cool is the ability to construct bunkers. It switches vulnerability to sapping to needing actual teammates to make it effective.

Great idea, I think another interesting if impractical idea is the over suggested anti spy sentry, it detects spies cloaked or disused, can't be sapped, but has half health and only level 1. Deadly efficient security but no power so it's useless against say a soldier.

Maybe a welder as a weapon? repairs twice a fast but uses ammo, and more or less useless except for lighting spies on fire.

Grigori361:

randommaster:

Ninjamedic:
DROP THE PS3 BOYCOTT ALREADY!! YOU BUMDERS!
...............Im, Im sorry about that.
An improved shottie would work.

Not until Sony desides to change the system architecture of their console to something that's easier to develop for.

Hm, I wonder what they could possibly do that would make a difference. We'll probably see a weapon change as that's pretty much a given. One thing that I think would be cool is the ability to construct bunkers. It switches vulnerability to sapping to needing actual teammates to make it effective.

Great idea, I think another interesting if impractical idea is the over suggested anti spy sentry, it detects spies cloaked or disused, can't be sapped, but has half health and only level 1. Deadly efficient security but no power so it's useless against say a soldier.

Maybe a welder as a weapon? repairs twice a fast but uses ammo, and more or less useless except for lighting spies on fire.

I think an exploding sentry would be a good alternative for the regular one. It would only be able to get to level 2, but if you tried to sap it, it would explode and deal heavy damage, if not outright kill, anything within sapping range. That means it gets to be effective against other classes while making spies think twice about sappin ma sentry.

Abedeus:
Also an excellent reason is that...

Well, remember Pyro update, Sniper/Spy update, Scout update?

7 engies on each team...?

I remember...lol

I still remember someone thinking of making a backpack that the engy can carry that will let him move his buildings instead of demolishing and rebuilding them every time. Slows him down for every thing he carries and how upgraded it is. But I'm still waiting to see what Valve will eventually come up with.

THE NAIL GUN!

The Nail Gun would be able to repair from a distance making it easier for the Engineer to repair his buildings that may be taking abuse from the enemy, but be less powerful than his good ol' shotgun...

I was expecting there to be more stuff...awell

oh and the teleporters are importent botched my idea of making a skeet that shoots people into the air enemies/allies =P

but then again I still have the lasso =]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1136541
crap ideas yes but I just wrote them just incase valve does do this so I can go YEA WHO CALLED IT!

Me55enger:
They'll likely replace the sentry gun with a oil pump, meaning the Texan Engie can merely sell out the other team.

Still, cant be as bad as that sodding bow and arrow.

actually that's not a bad idea. It works form a thematic standpoint. Texan. Engineer. Oil.

Imagine if they replaced the sentry gun with an oil slick generator. Pyros could set the oil on fire.. wouldn't have any real range, it would basically just squirt oil at a specific spot, like a chokepoint.

It would be difficult to see unless you were looking down for it (it might just give the ground a different sheen, like that purple greeny sheen you get on something covered in gasoline). Then a pyro can light it in a pinch, and it will burn briefly, go out, and a new batch of oil will be splurted out.

When not lit, it could give a sort of "intoxicated" blur effect from the fumes to people who are walking over it.

It would definitely change the dynamics of who beats engineer - as of right now, it's spies... spies beat engies.. sneak past, zap their shit. It would change it to Pyros beating Engies, at least Engies that use the Oil/Gas Pump. Pyros can run right through the flaming gas without catching fire. and decimate what's on the other side - the reason Pyro's don't already kick engies asses is because of the sentry.. they're useless against them. It also would also help engies specifically against spies, as the fire would thwart them sneaking in unseen.

Also, for kicks, you could make it so the Pyro's Hadouken Taunt and the Spy's Cigarette Taunt both light the gas. Would make for a pretty awesome "Meet The" video.

----

Meet the Gas Pump

RED Engineer: Hey, Spy, checkout this awesome new rig I set up. I set it up so it would pump gasoline all over the ground there.

*pump squirts gas all over a hallway*

RED Engineer: All we need now is a little fire to light this badboy up!

RED Spy: Oui Monsieur..

*Takes a drag on his cigarette and throws it into the hallway. Screaming is heard, and BLU Spy rushes in on fire. RED Engineer and RED Spy laugh and Guffaw*

*A muffled yell is heard as BLU Pyro bursts through the flames relatively unharmed*

RED Spy: Merde.

axle 19:
I cant really think of anything they can add to the engineer to make it better. Maybe a joke weapon or two like the jarate?

image
Knife-Wrench! Practical and safe.

Actually ever since Valve started the contribution thing I've been thinking up possible Engineer updates. I of course thought in the wrong direction, thinking of weapons and not buildables for the most part, but still. My ideas consisted of a shotgun that gave you metal for scoring critical hits and kills (the latter giving more than the former) and a sledgehammer that built structures faster but swung slower, and also dealt more damage at a further reach.

As far as buildables go? Well my joke weapon was a sentry gun disguised as a computer mainframe (basically a 1960s version of the laptop gun from Perfect Dark), and the other buildable isn't really a buildable but rather a PDA upgrade. Essentially replaces the "destroy" PDA with a "Self Destruct" PDA. The difference being that self-detonating a structure will set off a damaging explosion, or alternatively any time your structures are destroyed they go off in that fashion. Not the greatest ideas I know but that would make a bit of a nasty surprise for pyros and spies

AceDiamond:
a sledgehammer that built structures faster but swung slower.

Actually I like that, but make it a giant club, and call it the Rubble Club, after the Barney Rubble Method of Fixing things.

Altorin:

AceDiamond:
a sledgehammer that built structures faster but swung slower.

Actually I like that, but make it a giant club, and call it the Rubble Club, after the Barney Rubble Method of Fixing things.

And come to think of it, the Engineer does have a permanent 5-o-clock shadow like Barney...

damn that fits almost too well.

My personal idea for the Engineer update? A shrapnel gun that does more damage than the shotty, but uses metal instead of bullets (say 10 a shot, which would give you 20 shots total, less that the shotgun.) You could also lower the loading capacity, and make it look something steampunk-ish (I mean, this IS the engineer we're talking about.)

ugh I cant get enough TF2! I love that game and cant wait to get it on the computer. I have yet to play with any of the updates because I play on the 360

AceDiamond:

axle 19:
I cant really think of anything they can add to the engineer to make it better. Maybe a joke weapon or two like the jarate?

image
Knife-Wrench! Practical and safe.

Actually ever since Valve started the contribution thing I've been thinking up possible Engineer updates. I of course thought in the wrong direction, thinking of weapons and not buildables for the most part, but still. My ideas consisted of a shotgun that gave you metal for scoring critical hits and kills (the latter giving more than the former) and a sledgehammer that built structures faster but swung slower, and also dealt more damage at a further reach.

As far as buildables go? Well my joke weapon was a sentry gun disguised as a computer mainframe (basically a 1960s version of the laptop gun from Perfect Dark), and the other buildable isn't really a buildable but rather a PDA upgrade. Essentially replaces the "destroy" PDA with a "Self Destruct" PDA. The difference being that self-detonating a structure will set off a damaging explosion, or alternatively any time your structures are destroyed they go off in that fashion. Not the greatest ideas I know but that would make a bit of a nasty surprise for pyros and spies

Holy shit forgot that episode of scrubs. That would be a fantastic idea.

randommaster:
I think an exploding sentry would be a good alternative for the regular one. It would only be able to get to level 2, but if you tried to sap it, it would explode and deal heavy damage, if not outright kill, anything within sapping range. That means it gets to be effective against other classes while making spies think twice about sappin ma sentry.

No offense, but that's a bad idea. Like "Crossing the Streams" bad.

Level 2 sentries don't get rockets which means it's much harder for them to push back attacking enemies, especially Heavies. Also having the sentry explode when sapped makes no sense. When a spy saps a sentry, it's usually because he has friends waiting outside it's line of site looking to come in and wreak havoc. Or he's playing head games with the Engineer, hoping to lure him into an ambush. In very few cases is anyone but the Spy going to be taken out. Yes, the spy is dead, but so is the sentry. And if the Engineer is minding his sentry, he will also die because sentry guns can friendly fire their owners. To put it mildly, this functionality makes sapping a sentry an even more attractive prospect. Since there's no way for the Engineer to save the sentry and he has to spend time and metal to rebuild it. Assuming he wasn't caught in the blast.

If I can demonstrate using chess terminology. You took out a pawn with a rook, but on the next move you lost your rook to a bishop and you put your king in check. Best I can do, rooks don't self-destruct. Not in standard chess, anyway.

Give the engineer a sort of hacking device and a remote control that allows him to control both friendly and enemy sentries. Of course it has its limitations.

-Only one sentry can be controlled at any given time.
-The engineer must actually throw the tapping device onto an enemy sentry without dying.
-He cannot control both himself and the sentry at once.
-The remote and receiver have limited range.
-Using the tapper, you can effectively shoot anyone in view, thus eliminating the effect of the short targeting distance for the sentry.

The hacking device could also cause things like teleporters and dispensers to malfunction. Imagine having your lower body come out backwards a-la Spaceballs due to teleport malfunction. This would cause your directional controls to be reversed. Other odd and funny malfunctions could prop up.

Hack dispensers so they dispense small furry balls known as Trubbles (Trek reference ftw) instead of ammunition. So basically, when the enemy team runs out of ammo, they end up having harmless Trubbles that they can throw at enemies. Trubbles could do something like 5 damage when hitting an enemy thus adding a comedy factor (and potential achievements).

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