Study Claims Handheld Game Piracy Losses Top $41 Billion

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

Mmm, statistics freshly pulled out from the butt.

So if they lost $42 billion, about £30 billion, that means about a billion games downloaded for hacked PSPs, flashcards on DS and emulators. That is based on the handheld games costing £30 a pop. Most big releases come out as about £35 (~$75) not to mention the huge amount of shovelware and budget titles, and the fact that price drops for handhelds are higher than for console games. I'm sorry, but that is surely a complete load of rubbish?

SenseOfTumour:
I'm curious, does the PS3 have a big piracy problem? Just that I know if a download was going to be 50gb, that's more than a lot of people have as monthly bandwidth in the UK, and even if you have unlimited, you're still going to be waiting a long time on 1-2mb DSL.

Probably not. I haven't heard if the OS has been cracked yet, but assuming it has, blu-ray burners and blank blu-ray discs are still fairly rare and expensive, and as you said, a 50Gb iso will take a lot of time to download. Hell, pretty much all PC games are well under 20Gb.

41 billion?

Inflated much?

You know, corporations, businesses. If you want me to take your side when it comes to piracy, stop being complete assholes and stop inflating how much money you lose to piracy. I'm no fan of pirates, since they're basically the reason we're in this whole mess. But your not exactly the shining example of goodness in the world.

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

True, but I think that saying it's $41 billion in lost sales is overstating things a fair bit in an attempt to guilt trip people (maybe). My thought is that they can have my sympathy when they give me a fraction of their money mountain. Seriously, Nintendo made how much on handheld gaming in the last year, let alone 5 years? I totally feel their pain (/sarcasm).

dududf:
Statistic is bullshit.

Piracy=/= lost sales.
How do you know if the person was going to buy it in the first place? Didn't lose any money on someone who wouldn't have bought it anyways.
And what about the people who pirated it to try it then bought it?
You can't form a statistic on something that can't be measured.

Not only is what you just said true, I have absolutely no doubt that even if you considered every single one of them a lost sale, it would come nowhere near a TENTH of that ridiculous figure.

THIS JUST IN! "The practitioners of this study believe handheld games sell for 20 million USD a copy!"

Irridium:
41 billion?

Inflated much?

You know, corporations, businesses. If you want me to take your side when it comes to piracy, stop being complete assholes and stop inflating how much money you lose to piracy. I'm no fan of pirates, since they're basically the reason we're in this whole mess. But your not exactly the shining example of goodness in the world.

That figure means that over 1 billion copies were pirated (assuming these games cost about $30 a pop, which is generous since most DS games cost less now that they're no longer new releases)

I repeat, OVER ONE BILLION COPIES PIRATED!

What a total load of shit, I don't even know how someone would go about pirating for a handheld device, it's not as easy as PC games or Movies, and I'm sure it's not hard, but this figure basically says "more people pirated handheld games than know how to use the internet"

That many handheld game systems havn't even been sold.

Even if every pirate pirated ONE HUNDRED HANDHELD GAMES (a ridiculous assertion) it would still fall way short

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

I refer you to my other post:

That figure means that over 1 billion copies were pirated (assuming these games cost about $30 a pop, which is generous since most DS games cost less now that they're no longer new releases)

I repeat, OVER ONE BILLION COPIES PIRATED!

What a total load of shit, I don't even know how someone would go about pirating for a handheld device, it's not as easy as PC games or Movies, and I'm sure it's not hard, but this figure basically says "more people pirated handheld games than know how to use the internet"

That many handheld game systems havn't even been sold.

Even if every pirate pirated ONE HUNDRED HANDHELD GAMES (a ridiculous assertion) it would still fall way short

You're well known for being against piracy, and I respect that, but it doesn't mean groups should just make things up. Piracy is theft yes, but it's not baby rape or $41 billion in handheld sales lost and many of the other ridiculous assertions.

By throwing out such a ludicrous number, they are hurting their own cause, and their integrity.

If they release the details of the study to the public (the numbers they performed the calculations on) I'd gladly take a look, but if they won't, then I don't approve of a bunch of liars tarnishing the integrity of scientific studies, no matter the cause.

Remember when they popped out figures about PC piracy? And then it turned out it was a load of ballocks?

Well guess what, this is too.

As many have said before the second hand games market is doing more damage to publishers than piracy ever has.

I usually find myself critical of publications stating an overly inflated number as nothing more than sensationalism. We have to consider that these games don't cost the manufacturer the retail price to make these games. These games cost maybe a fraction of the retail price to make, so as far as losing invested money is concerned the number is actually much smaller. That and I disagree with the method in which they calculate the total losses. Multiplying by four on an already dubious number is stretching the truth for sensationalism. That's almost like saying that 40 billion is a fine number when you consider that the worlds population is around 7 billion people, that's like 5 bucks a person over the course of how many years? The statement pumps out numbers while using a flawed logic. The entire world does not have access to computers, or the devices necessary to pirate these games. When an individual considers that a tiny percentage of the market actually pirates handheld games, the numbers look inflated, indeed.

As it is, I doubt that number is even that high combined with Peer2Peer networks. The number is likely high, but nowhere near the number given.

Also, about the US having the most pirating sites, I have to say "who cares"

It doesn't matter who has the most sites, what matters is how many things are pirated using that site.

Hell, I could make a thousand pirating sites today, that wouldn't mean I'm causing 1000 times more pirating to occur than ThePirateBay.com

dududf:
Statistic is bullshit.

Piracy=/= lost sales.
How do you know if the person was going to buy it in the first place? Didn't lose any money on someone who wouldn't have bought it anyways.
And what about the people who pirated it to try it then bought it?
You can't form a statistic on something that can't be measured.

I agree with this.

To be clear I still don't support it, I am just saying.

SenseOfTumour:

Wow, is it really that easy? What did they think was going to happen?

sosolidshoe:

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

And the other point would be that your figure of 10% just as justifiable as their figure of 41 billion, ie, not at all. It could be 100%, it could be 0.000000000000000001%, there is no way to know and, instead of claiming knowledge they lack and collectively punishing consumers on that basis, they should maybe do some studies which can produce workable outcomes such as; What can we do to encourage legal purchasing? What demographics actually engage in piracy?

They could also start actually paying attention to the studies which have been done which produced workable outcomes, such as the one which showed that people who pirate music spend MORE than people who don't on legitimate purchases.

Throwing around numbers and screaming "Piracy is bad, mmmkay" will not stop piracy, if they want to make more money maybe they should focus on ways to do that; constantly striving for an unachievable goal will only cost them more.

I was going to chip in to this discussion, but this is the best f*cking post I have ever seen on the Escapist when relating to piracy. Hit the nail on the head. Good job, sir, +1 internets.

BTW if you follow the link to the CESA (makers of this "study") it turns out they haven't updated their website since 2007.

Real reputable.

sosolidshoe:

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

And the other point would be that your figure of 10% just as justifiable as their figure of 41 billion, ie, not at all. It could be 100%, it could be 0.000000000000000001%, there is no way to know and, instead of claiming knowledge they lack and collectively punishing consumers on that basis, they should maybe do some studies which can produce workable outcomes such as; What can we do to encourage legal purchasing? What demographics actually engage in piracy?

They could also start actually paying attention to the studies which have been done which produced workable outcomes, such as the one which showed that people who pirate music spend MORE than people who don't on legitimate purchases.

Throwing around numbers and screaming "Piracy is bad, mmmkay" will not stop piracy, if they want to make more money maybe they should focus on ways to do that; constantly striving for an unachievable goal will only cost them more.

All of this is assuming you believe the $42 billion figure anyway, which is a load of crap.

Researchers arrived at this number by searching for Japanese versions of the top 20 releases from 2004 to 2009 on the top 114 piracy sites around the world. - O... kay. Considering that people often pirate the Jap version as that's the first release to see what it's like and then get the version in their language at a later date would inflate this.

The retail cost of the games and their ratio of sales were then factored in to determine the cost to the Japanese market - People don't always buy games at full price retail, some wait for a reduction so this is inflated.

that figure was multiplied by four, "under the assumption that Japan accounts for 25 percent of the world's software market," - Where... why? How did they figure this out!?

to come up with the worldwide figure. - So (inflated + inflated) x random number plucked from the air without a source = GROSSLY inflated.

By all means, piracy is an issue but bloody hell they're just making stuff up now.

As people have stated before, POTENTIAL sales does NOT equal ACTUAL sales.

You cannot state that pirates have taken billions from you unless they have actually broken into your money-vault and robbed you. Stupid lying corporations.

dududf:
Statistic is bullshit.

Piracy=/= lost sales.
How do you know if the person was going to buy it in the first place? Didn't lose any money on someone who wouldn't have bought it anyways.
And what about the people who pirated it to try it then bought it?
You can't form a statistic on something that can't be measured.

I do love this argument.

It makes just as faulty an assumption as the very people you're deriding for bad stats work. They assume that every pirated copy represents a lost sale. You assume that either some significant number of people who pirate either (a) never would have bought it anyway, or (b) use it as an illegal 'demo' system. Both of these assumptions are similarly unfounded to the one made by your opponents.

There's no more inherent reasonableness (which, apparently, is a word, while 'reasonability' isn't, odd) to assuming that every pirated copy is a lost sale as there is to assuming that some smaller number of them is.

But, let's even accept your argument (some of them don't represent lost sales). What percent of pirates would have to provably "never have bought the product anyway" or "would buy the product eventually" before it stops being "some loss for the company" and "a bad thing"? Even if 80% of all pirates do what you claim, that's still about $10 billion in losses in handhelds.

That's a lot of lost money from theft.

I would buy Disgaea 2 on the PSP if it could be played on custom firmware. Instead, I just dug up an older UMD to start another Disgaea 1 playthrough. Suck it, Sony. Your anti-piracy measures are indeed causing lost sales.

It's ridiculous, insane nonsense. Handheld games are so easy to pirate people are going to download literally hundreds of them for every one they would have bought, and that's discounting all the games people have bought AND copied for the massively improved experience. I'd be surprised if the true figure was anything like as much as a billion dollars.

It's another typical "PIRACY IS BAD!! ITS REALLY BAD!!" study rant.
Yeah, I get it. Don't pirate games.

It's the same song and dance we've heard for 20 years (Remember the SPA?), and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.
So unless we employ totalitarian measures or form a fascist world government, I seriously doubt it will ever come under control.
That's just the nature of the digital format and a global network.

The industry will either adapt or decline. I seriously doubt it will die out completely though.

Well, they should stop making handhelds so fucking easy to pirate games on. Seriously, this isn't rocket-fucking-science.

An obvious political construct meant to try and pressure lawmakers. Either that or it demonstrates how far the game industry is detached from reality. All arguements about whether or not a pirated copy amounts to a lost sale aside, simply the idea that there is 41 billion dollars in the global economy (which is slowly recovering from a recession) that would be spent on handheld video games is ridiculous.

What's more I suspect this is also meant as a multi-pronged attack. The industry has a lot of things on the table that they would like to see happen. Some of their big issues has been things like Abandonware, Emulation, and "fansubs" of games. All of which float on a careful legal line. With Abandonware companies are no longer selling a game and/or maintaining the nessicary liscences, when it comes to Emulation it generally allows you to play a game accross intended formats, it being legal if you already own the original version of the cartridge, then of course you have 'fan to fan' copies which are games that might be currently released, but not in your area, with no intention of them ever going there. A company can't claim to be losing money on something like that since they aren't willing to take your money and sell you a usable copy to begin with.

All of these things can be debated, and have been heavily. For the most part the industry tries to claim all of those things are "piracy", and for the most part the law has given mixed results and there haven't been any solid enough rulings to have these things actually declared illegal. On occasion when I've actually seen itemized lists of pirate sites (it happens very rarely, specifically because of the debate it can cause) names like "Home Of The Underdogs" and "Abandonia" oftentimes come up, despite those sites being entirely legal, and having on numerous occasions taken down games when they have gone back into distribution, or a liscence was renewed.

With Emulation, it can be a touchy subject because you have consumers that believe once they own a game, they own it, and it should be theirs forever. Then you have an industry that believes increasingly that they should have the right to re-tread the same stuff and make you pay for a new copy every hardware generation.

One of the conflicts I also remember about EULAs, was the idea of people's right to "mod" their programs and that right was upheld, which is why the modding community still continues to operate. While I believe there were rulings in both directions at various times, this has included the right of someone to make their game run on a differant set of hardware, which means that people doing things like modifying Gameboy Games to run with custom firmware on a Sony handheld, or on a PC is technically legal despite what the companies might decide. This is also why emulation sites operate publically and you can find massive dumpsites of ROMS from the Genesis/SNES/etc... although the legality is dependant on you owning or having owned the original cartridge.

A lot of the baaaawing being largely about the fact that emulation means that selling games for nostolgia purposes like the "Sonic's Genesis Collection" (which I own for PS-3) aren't a gold mine, and buying games like "Comix Zone" or "Gain Ground" off of Steam can only command a few bucks because your basically saving most of the people who would be interested in those a bit of time more than anything.

My point here being that when they talk about US piracy sites, I'd very much be questioning where they got THAT number from, and how many legal sites are being used to pad it out. As loud as portions of the industry might cry, sites like Abandonia haven't been shut down because here is no legal precedent to do so, and they play by the rules.

Basically I think they are hoping to try and say that they are losing big bucks from these kinds of sites, or at least that's what I'd imagine you'd see if you were to look into the fine details.

This is simply my opinions/observations.

Simply put they're probably crying because there are people who doubtlessly ported games like "Monster Hunter Freedom" or "Pokemon" to the PC or whatever so they could play them that way, which cut in on their action. Or decided to port their old genesis games or whatever to those formats which kind of shot them in the foot for re-selling old products.

I generally don't think messing around with this kind of stuff, is worth the time or effort. As much as I wish Sony *WOULD* release the Monster Hunter games for a format other than the PSP for example (so I can control with two thumsticks comfortably), it's not worth risking messing up a system to try and jury rig it (at least not to me).

Oh and being an old "Wizardry Fan" I'd also like to play "Class Of Heroes" on a big screen. :P

This sums up my opinion. Download =/= Lost sale! Some pirates can live without...

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

Many issues with "reporting" like this. One the number is pulled entirely out of the ass, so reporting it as having any kind of authority is just pushing an agenda. So your made up 10% of a large made up number is still a made up number. I can claim 0% of the downloaders would have made a purchase and be just as accurate as your 10% figure.

I would love to see that made up number next to the used game sales real number. However used game sale are codified into law (first sale doctrine) so the publishers can't complain about that. Instead they blame piracy on their failure to adapt their business model to technology.

Industry associations (really should be called special interest lobbying groups) release made up numbers like these to try to sway public opinion and legislators toward bullshit anti-consumer pro-corporate laws like DMCA and ACTA.

rembrandtqeinstein:

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

Many issues with "reporting" like this. One the number is pulled entirely out of the ass, so reporting it as having any kind of authority is just pushing an agenda. So your made up 10% of a large made up number is still a made up number. I can claim 0% of the downloaders would have made a purchase and be just as accurate as your 10% figure.

I would love to see that made up number next to the used game sales real number. However used game sale are codified into law (first sale doctrine) so the publishers can't complain about that. Instead they blame piracy on their failure to adapt their business model to technology.

Industry associations (really should be called special interest lobbying groups) release made up numbers like these to try to sway public opinion and legislators toward bullshit anti-consumer pro-corporate laws like DMCA and ACTA.

I realize we have no idea how many of the pirated copies would have been actual sales - you're correct in assuming that it's probably rather low. And laws like the DMCA are horrible.

That doesn't make piracy any less of an issue. Don't try to pretend it's not.

Once again PC is still indirectly pointed at as being the worst pirated platform in the same news report when something else comes out about pirating. I find that to be a typical even though it shows that piracy is rampant everywhere. It is not just the PC. Just because it is popular to say the PC is worst it isn't. Most people who pirate console games buy them from someone so of course they aren't going to have a massive number beside the torrent. I don't know a single person who downloads pirated console games they all buy them for a fiver. Yet I don't know anyone who pirates PC games.

John Funk:
I realize we have no idea how many of the pirated copies would have been actual sales - you're correct in assuming that it's probably rather low. And laws like the DMCA are horrible.

That doesn't make piracy any less of an issue. Don't try to pretend it's not.

Except its circular logic at this point. "Piracy is a problem because we've said piracy is a problem."

They're operating on the idea that since piracy is illegal, they can issue any bullshit claim they want and anyone who argues is just a criminal, trying to justify their crimes. This is all down the line, everyone from anti-piracy forum rats to industry cheerleaders (you) to the industry itself.

I understand where they're coming from. Why pay money for in-depth research into a "problem" that would only undermine your many baseless claims? When googling a game title, then looking up the traffic stats of every site that claims to host that game, then multiplying every hit to every site by $30 gives a much more impressive number than any sort of real study and costs a fuck of a lot less too.

John Funk:

rembrandtqeinstein:

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

Many issues with "reporting" like this. One the number is pulled entirely out of the ass, so reporting it as having any kind of authority is just pushing an agenda. So your made up 10% of a large made up number is still a made up number. I can claim 0% of the downloaders would have made a purchase and be just as accurate as your 10% figure.

I would love to see that made up number next to the used game sales real number. However used game sale are codified into law (first sale doctrine) so the publishers can't complain about that. Instead they blame piracy on their failure to adapt their business model to technology.

Industry associations (really should be called special interest lobbying groups) release made up numbers like these to try to sway public opinion and legislators toward bullshit anti-consumer pro-corporate laws like DMCA and ACTA.

I realize we have no idea how many of the pirated copies would have been actual sales - you're correct in assuming that it's probably rather low. And laws like the DMCA are horrible.

That doesn't make piracy any less of an issue. Don't try to pretend it's not.

Yes, piracy is an issue to PC gaming. We get it. But, as it was said, publishers lose close to as much if not as much or more money to used game sales, or even friend to friend loans. For example, is it really illegal if I give my friend my copy of Left 4 Dead, and he gives it to a friend when he gets done? That's 2 lost sales right there, well, maybe you should throw me in jail then!

I understand that you are hugely against piracy, and to a certain degree I respect that. But the industry is quickly acting like a huge broken record, spouting the same argument over and over. They refuse to look at other causes for lost sales and immediately jump on the piracy bandwagon. It's like shooting at the thieves stealing your carrots but ignoring the arsonist lighting your house on fire.

I am really getting sick and tired of all these bullshit statistics, because it has been proven time and time again that they are fake or inflated. Hell, there was a story run on the Escapist not too long ago saying just that. I'll dig it up when I can be arsed and when my internet speeds back up. It would be like Jack Thompson making up a story of how someone tried to slit his throat with a game manual, just so he could further his agenda on anti-game laws. Every intelligent person would know it's bullshit, but then again, the intelligence to stupidity ratio is rather small these days, so naturally the soccer moms would be up in arms!

I am proud of you guys though, the title for the most part is unbiased and sums up the article, just sad that the article itself is either fake or inflated.

No offense intended, my opinion and mine only. Good day to you, sir.

Hopeless Bastard:

John Funk:
I realize we have no idea how many of the pirated copies would have been actual sales - you're correct in assuming that it's probably rather low. And laws like the DMCA are horrible.

That doesn't make piracy any less of an issue. Don't try to pretend it's not.

Except its circular logic at this point. "Piracy is a problem because we've said piracy is a problem."

They're operating on the idea that since piracy is illegal, they can issue any bullshit claim they want and anyone who argues is just a criminal, trying to justify their crimes. This is all down the line, everyone from anti-piracy forum rats to industry cheerleaders (you) to the industry itself.

I understand where they're coming from. Why pay money for in-depth research into a "problem" that would only undermine your many baseless claims? When googling a game title, then looking up the traffic stats of every site that claims to host that game, then multiplying every hit to every site by $30 gives a much more impressive number than any sort of real study and costs a fuck of a lot less too.

No, piracy is a problem because it's taking something that people spent years and millions of dollars working on, and taking their work for free. How can you justify calling people against this "rats" or "cheerleaders" if we just believe that people are entitled to getting paid for their work?

SlainPwner666:

Yes, piracy is an issue to PC gaming. We get it. But, as it was said, publishers lose close to as much if not as much or more money to used game sales, or even friend to friend loans. For example, is it really illegal if I give my friend my copy of Left 4 Dead, and he gives it to a friend when he gets done? That's 2 lost sales right there, well, maybe you should throw me in jail then!

I understand that you are hugely against piracy, and to a certain degree I respect that. But the industry is quickly acting like a huge broken record, spouting the same argument over and over. They refuse to look at other causes for lost sales and immediately jump on the piracy bandwagon. It's like shooting at the thieves stealing your carrots but ignoring the arsonist lighting your house on fire.

I am really getting sick and tired of all these bullshit statistics, because it has been proven time and time again that they are fake or inflated. Hell, there was a story run on the Escapist not too long ago saying just that. I'll dig it up when I can be arsed and when my internet speeds back up. It would be like Jack Thompson making up a story of how someone tried to slit his throat with a game manual, just so he could further his agenda on anti-game laws. Every intelligent person would know it's bullshit, but then again, the intelligence to stupidity ratio is rather small these days, so naturally the soccer moms would be up in arms!

I am proud of you guys though, the title for the most part is unbiased and sums up the article, just sad that the article itself is either fake or inflated.

No offense intended, my opinion and mine only. Good day to you, sir.

Re: The L4D2 thing... not really. As long as there's only one physical copy floating around, you're good. The trouble comes when two of you are playing at the same time for the cost of one game.

Lending a book to a friend is one thing (friend has book, you do not have book); scanning all of the pages and sending it to them is another thing entirely.

As R Lee Ermey said in Full Metal Jacket "BULLSHIT! You did not convince me!"

Woodsey:
Remember when pirates had boats, treasure and swords?

Now they're just c*nts.

It's 5:48 am, when I read this I lol'd hard xD Good job.

John Funk:
To people claiming that not every download is a lost sale: That's true, but that's not the point. The fact that there's at LEAST $41bn of pirated software floating around out there is a staggering number. If even 10% of that was a lost sale, that's $4bn. That is a lot of money.

Its abit different when taken in economic terms 41b doesn't actually exist in the market

John Funk:
No, piracy is a problem because it's taking something that people spent years and millions of dollars working on, and taking their work for free. How can you justify calling people against this "rats" or "cheerleaders" if we just believe that people are entitled to getting paid for their work?

I was talking about scale, not dictionary definition. All the over-inflated bullshit leads me to believe piracy is as relevant a market force as shoplifting or shipping damage. For as what little data I've collected, it appears if you count every pirated copy going to a territory that is even a relevant market as a lost sale, the actual impact is at most 25% of whatever they say. Not even considering the baseless core of the "lost sales" argument.

The fact they're saying the US is the biggest contributor to handheld piracy because the most sites are hosted there means they truly have no real data on this matter and are simply yanking numbers from their ass in desperate attempt to justify the amount of money being blown on draconian copy protection.

And I refer to you people as forum rats and cheerleaders because you don't ever for a second act like a single doubt enters your mind on this subject. As if you treat every clearly bullshit stat as gospel. I'm not even trying to justify piracy either, I just want someone to produce some real data or for everyone to just shut the fuck up about piracy. For if they can't produce some real information on the damage its causing, then its simply not a real problem.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here