Industry Obsessed With "Gay Space Marines," Says Mafia 2 Producer

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Why bother trying to do something different when you don't change any other aspects? Replace space marines with 50' pseudo mafiaso and we still get some redundant cover based shooting and killing hundreds of mobs.

Sounds like something a 10 year old would say over XBL, but it's oddly true.

There is nothing wrong with space marines, putting settings in the future and space give you a large universe that you can do anything with and have the excuse "Its the future".

What is wrong is having dull characters and little to no story or character development.

Why can't we have a scared, nervous rookie slowly rise to commander of his own elite team and get over his fears and insecurities? Instead we get silent rookies who turn out to be Kratos with a gun.

Sorry....someone named Denby Grace shouldn't be calling anyone gay....except his boyfriend.

They need to do a Sleep Away camp game. If you don't what Sleep Away Camp is than just imagine the crying game in the 80's with campers instead of IRA members.

They ending would be awesomeness.

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Because absoultely NOBODY likes these guys. Yeah, they're all gay and stuff.
(Isaac Clarke might not count, but he's in space and wears armor. Close enough. I might have a bad guy though from Warhammer, I've never played it, but I've heard that it was popular and the marines were cool. I don't know if he's good guy or bad guy, but he popped up first on google images.)
Remember kids, don't call a man with a BFG gay. Bad things could happen...

Well, I have mixed opinions on the subject. Stereotypes work because they make sense. The problem in many cases isn't a lack of innovation but a lack of quality in writing. In most cases it isn't a problem with what is being created, but how much effort they put into building and explaining it. To be honest in more cases than not when someone decides to be "hyper innovative" you wind up with a lot of pretentious [email protected] that oftentimes winds up being more obnoxious than the stereotypes it was intended to get away from.

When it comes to "Space Marines" there is nothing really wrong with the concept. Simply put people in the military wind up being like these guys because military programs are designed to basically break down everything a person is when they go in and replace it with a soldier. Individuality is not as important as disapline, conditioning, and dare I say predictability. Once you achieve that baseline, a piece to be moved in large military engagements, certain people are picked out through testing and such to be given somewhat more autonomy in the Special Forces or whatever, but still have that core military personality which is a benefit for combat troops irregardless of what many people might think.

If a lot of soldiers in differant games seem very similar, that is because they are doing it right. That's how the military is, and the military is pretty much the theme when it comes to warfare and shooters. The same could be argued with other stereotypes in other generes.

Truthfully, I think that like comic books, video games, despite all the diverse themes, could benefit from a deconstructionist/reconstructionist period. Love it or hate it, this is what kept comics and super heroes alive. Basically deconstructionism is when someone takes a theme and intentionally removes all of the stereotypes to show things from a differant perspective. For example creating a world where superhumans don't fight crime all that much but instead use their powers to become a sort of celebrity elite and basically take over the entire existing infrastructure. A telepath like Professor X might for example go to work for the IRS to globally scan for tax evasion (big brother REALLY is watching) as opposed to trying to save the world. Reconstructionism is when you make all the arguements from the Deconstructionist movement and then show how they ultimatly wind up in the right place. People with powers are going to want to do things, being better than everyone else, and that means needing to deal with society and disguise oneself to avoid legal repercussions and so on.

While simplistic in the context of comics a Deconstructionist would argue that it's stupid for say some superbeing to go out and rob banks (a classic stunt) when he could make a fortune by simply selling his powers in most cases. A reconstructionist would point out that no matter how powerful the guy might be, if he wants to make global changes (promote one culture or idealogy, put another one down, cause some kind of global change, or whatever) the very nature of the job means he's going to need resources, and since he's going to be doing part of it (at least) through force given that his powers are what makes it viable, he can't do things totally "above board" without getting lynched through overwhelming force. Criminal activity like robbing banks while hiding in a costume thus becomes more understandabe behavior. We have the "classic" behavior, but more carefully explained or thought out than "Count Repugsive is robbing a bank because it's evil, and we need some reason for super heroes to confront him".

In the context of this discussion, I think the game industry could benefit from getting to the point where they explain WHY Space Marines (and soldiers) are the way they are, which is oddly something most people who aren't military do not understand even if they think they do. Rather than going back into some stereotypical back story of one of the protaganists, what the genere needs is a sort of "Starship Troopers" take on things (not the movies, the book) along with the character development. Perhaps with a couple of attempts to first deconstruct the genere showing why this is nessicary. Say, someone trying to do "Duke Nukem" without the intended satire, that way a counterpoint exists to sort of show why things ending up with the military and it's way of doing things is actually a good thing.

The generes (science fiction, military sci-fi, sword and sorcery, etc..) have gone through all of this in books and such, but many people without a backround of reading these kinds of
novels in great numbers play video games, and would probably gain the greatest benefit from these kinds of movements hitting video game writing for a while.

Such are my thoughts, albiet probably not articulated very well.

Also for those who read this far, I will also say that all jokes about hyper-macho types being "gay", and perhaps what are some seriously intended undertones, I myself have noticed this and think the game industry needs to knock it off. I think what it comes down to is that homosexuality is considered "edgy", it allegedly shows some "bravery" among those who even slightly insert an innuendo, and can rile people up to generate press and contreversy. In most cases there is no real point. Either address it seriously, or don't bother. Regulars to these forums know my overall thoughts on all aspects subject here, but basically what I'm getting at is that irregardless of what I might think of most of this stuff, mostly what we seem to see is the developmental equivilent of some jerk in a classroom trying to get a rise out of people for attention. If they are going to do it, do it right and let the chips fall where they may. "Dragon Age: Origins" did it pretty well overall for example, even if I don't like (and avoid) guy on guy stuff, while some of the stuff that is implied in various games like "Gears Of War" (or so the Internet seems to say, I'm not a fan of the francbhise) seems mostly to be an attempt at rabble rousing, and denial for the sake of rousing even more rabble by doing so.

"There are too many games ripping off Starship Troopers", said the man responsible for a game ripping off The Godfather. He paused to sniff his finger, then added "in order to be original, we must steal ideas in moderation."

Doomguy is not gay. Fuck you.

he's basically crying that people arn't buying his game or having there jaws hit the flaw in awe of mafia and is taking it out on whats actually bringing in big money. life isnt fair.

"Oh know, someone said gay!"

Stop being oversensitive you pricks. As a bisexual man I hate when people speak for me.

Jbird:
Here's a original story for ya: Cthulhu and Satan must team up to stop a megalomaniac Jesus Christ from a parallel dimension, in which he wears an eye patch to signify how much more evil he is. And, it will be a puzzle-based game similar to Tetris, but the blocks are replaced with flaming unicorns wearing sunglasses. Progress through 400 levels to defeat Nega-Christ's evil army of space squirrels.

That original enough for ya, Mr. Italian-Immigrant-turn-Mobster-Game?

That sounds like a game that would generate so much controversy that if it could be turned into energy, it could power the U.S. for 3 months. It also sounds like the type of game that deserves a medal.

That article made me think of that TVshow in GTA IV:

Valkyrie101:
Hyper-masculinity doesn't always indicate homosexuality. They could just be conventionally masculine.

Though it does indeicate overcompensation, though I see your point.

I'd actually prefer "Overcompensating Space Marines", since it could be interpretted in two different ways. Plus it's what I feel whenever I see them.

And to those who say Mafia's been done before, it's been done less in the gaming world recentlt than the endless line of space marines.

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haha, well why not. Fight for your rights boys :P

Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon:
Happy Space Marines?
I am not understanding...

whats not to understand marines in space who love there job

because your game was soooo good :/. I'll take ghey spesh mehreens over horrible driving, boring combat, and a godfather rip-off any day.

And yet the picture of Marcus and the other Gears characters... They aren't space marines, just regular ass "marines" (let's not go into if they're actually even marines or not). And the gay thing, it's pretty obvious that at least Marcus and Dom aren't gay as Dom spends half the second game looking for his wife and I think the only reason Marcus hasn't jumped on Anya yet is because he can't figure out how to get that damn armor off. And yeah go ahead and make fun of the goofy armor, they need to tone that stuff down a bit in a lot of games.

And anyway, that's a pretty bold statement coming from a guy who made a game that's not very fun to play. Grace should remember, they're called video GAMES, not video stories. I don't care how good your story is, if your game is no fun to play, I'm going to turn it off and do something else. I can see the cutscenes on YouTube if I care enough about the story you made. Anyway yeah, let me agree that he's an asshole, because first of all his way of saying it's a problem is stupid. Could have said "hyper masculine marines" and covered a hell of a lot more games, and oh look he made another story about Italian immigrants becoming mobsters and ending it with "CRIME DOESN'T PAY". Yes, that's so much more original than another cover based shooter with guys who are super manly men.

FINALLY. Someone else who realises that not every damn game involving a gun and an enemy should have Marines in it.

There are 2 other branches of military for a start, as well as the regular Navy. Make something to do with those!

While I agree that the games industry needs to be more creative, it shouldn't be coming from this guy.
It's basically the pot calling the kettel black, and using the word gay doesn't make what he says anymore important.

You know what? Never mind. Ignore this.

sp86:

Sebenko:
Maybe he's been playing DoW II's last Stand with me then

Yes, that is who I always play as. Yes, it is even funnier when he summons a dreadnought.

I just got tired of everyone with their black armour serious mehreens.

Those are traitor legion colors! BURN THE HERETIC!

BY THE LITANY OF DECORATION! You have offended my honour, and my extention, the honour of the EMPRA, for SPESS MEHREENS are the embodiment of the EMPRA'S will!

Dfskelleton:
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Because absoultely NOBODY likes these guys. Yeah, they're all gay and stuff.
(Isaac Clarke might not count, but he's in space and wears armor. Close enough. I might have a bad guy though from Warhammer, I've never played it, but I've heard that it was popular and the marines were cool. I don't know if he's good guy or bad guy, but he popped up first on google images.)
Remember kids, don't call a man with a BFG gay. Bad things could happen...

Perhaps I am missing the intention here, but I seem to remember a lot being said about whether or not Marcus Fenix and Dom were gay despite Dom's wife (who was gone). Similar things have been said about other hyper-macho military type games, where the developers seemed to be trying to get attention.

In Warhammer 40k this is less of an issue when dealing with the actual Space Marines as they simply put cannot be gay. These guys get genetically altered by this stuff called "gene seed" into super humans which means that they aren't going to be reacting to sex pheremones of their own gender. To be blunt, while the material contridicts itself at places (I've mostly read novels and some of the backrounds in the codexes) I believe they might actually be chemically castrated eunachs or something similar to it, "men" only in the most vague sense. This came up at one point where it was mentioned they were greatly resistant to attacks by worshippers of Slaanesh (Chaos Lust Deity) due to what amounted to "surgical and genetic repression". You basically can't seduce something or drive it into pheremonal lust when it's non-sexual.

Now on the flip side of this, Chaos Marines (those who have been corrupted and then mutated by Chaos) could very well be, especially those who have been corrupted BY Slaanesh specifically.

Beyond general civilian decadence, the only battlefield faction (not dealing with civilians, spire nobles, hive gangers, etc...) I know of in Warhammer 40k that would have any high percentage of homosexuals (excepting Slaanesh) and maybe the Dark Eldar are probably "The Sisters Of Battle" and that's somewhat touchy. That because they take vows of chasity being warrior-nuns, but I seem to have read that a lot of the differant sects actually take vows forsaking men and get *really* close to each other. That wouldn't be a majority or anything, but a presence. Especially seeing as part of this was (as I vaguely remember it) is that the Imperial Faith actually acknowleges "The Emperor" in a lot of differant forms, so some single human deity or goddess might be "him" by another name or aspect. Warrior priestesses coming from those planets would fall under the general "Sisters Of Battle"... heading among other things.

Genereally speaking who does what in the bedroom isn't a focus of this universe however.

-

When it comes to Issac Clark, I'm not sure if all the space faring military in that setting are Marines or not myself. The dude spends the whole game pining over Nicole, so he's definatly not gay.

For the sake of this discussion I'd think he does count as a "Space Marine" though. Despite all pretensions of the guy "not being the typical gung-ho military hero", he's pretty much the typical gung-ho military hero. It's just that his MOS is engineering apparently. I say this because the guy is assigned to deep space rescue teams which seem to be military going by their armament. What's more he's arguably important enough within that organization where at the very beginning he gets to be part of the whole "we're arriving" type mission briefing which typical grease monkeys wouldn't get. While his first weapon is a tool (as are some others) he has absolutly zero difficulty using assault rifles, flame throwers, and other things like a pro which makes it clear that he has apparently been taught by somebody.

All movies about fighting terrorists aside, I was most reminded of the Navy SEALs by this game to be honest. SEALs not just being soldiers, but a rescue team. Being deployed to a ship in serious trouble more or less "blind" where the problem could be anything from an enemy force, to technical problems, on a small boat, is the kind of thing that these guys do (among others).

It's been a while since I played it, but I definatly got the impression that Issac Clark was pretty much a combat engineer, and I don't remember anything else having been said to counteract that impression (though I could be forgetting something). A Space Marine with a couple of engineering degrees so to speak.... :P

mParadox:
Obsession? Really? i thought Gordon Freeman broke that stereotype. Wait till Ep3.you'll see ;)

Well, there is that Lambda signal...rather big in the LBGT society.

Therumancer:
Perhaps I am missing the intention here, but I seem to remember a lot being said about whether or not Marcus Fenix and Dom were gay despite Dom's wife (who was gone). Similar things have been said about other hyper-macho military type games, where the developers seemed to be trying to get attention.

...

When it comes to Issac Clark, I'm not sure if all the space faring military in that setting are Marines or not myself. The dude spends the whole game pining over Nicole, so he's definatly not gay.

So, Dom spends the whole game pining over and looking for his wife, but he can still be gay. Issac Clark spends the whole game pining over and locking for his wife or girlfriend, but he's not gay? Why? Only difference is Issac Clark doesn't have other guys fighting next to him. Being alone excludes him from being gay, but Dom isn't safe because he also spends the game hanging out with 3 other guys most of the time?

Sounds about as dumb as the stuff when people say things like "Well all sports players must be gay because they run around getting all sweaty and then take a group shower." Apparently doing anything with other men makes you gay in some people's minds.

Does anyone else find it kind of hypocritical that this is coming from a guy who made a game about gangsters!?

Anyways my Idea isn't to have fewer games about "gay spacemarines" but to make a game about a Gay space marine.(preferably staring John barrowman and/or Niel patrick harris.)

Well he was a bit crass about it, but he's right. I'm just glad that Space Marines are the new WW2 for 'overused genre'

Now can we please go back to WW2 and do all the amazing bits that haven't been done yet? You know, the 99% that isn't D-Day?

Honestly I can't remember the last time I played a FPS where my actions seemed to hold any real weight to them. Oh yeah, I remember- World At War.

Hmmm i admit there are way too many games coming out all together that all have similar space marine stereotypes and no truly "femanine" characters. Yes there are probably some out there coming but for the most part it is males and tomboyish females.

This is like Uwe Boll calling Ed Wood a hack.

And maybe I just have better self control than everyone else, but if I don't want to play a space marine game, I don't fucking buy it! And while I might hope for different kinds of games to come out, there are other equally valid consumers that want these games, and I won't demand they have fun the way I do.

Well, it sounds like he's more using "gay" as an insult as opposed to the characters in question preferring the company of men. Maybe if he wasn't so juvenile, I might be inclined to listen to him, but, alas...no.

After all, I can't think of any gay space marines. Besides the fact the characters in GoW aren't space marines, Dom was married to a woman and Marcus was clearly interested in Anya, also a woman.

He's going to have to provide us with some examples, I'm afraid.

This guy just banged himself in the head.

He's just mad because Mafia 2 is a mediocore game.

Bigeyez:
Oh the delicious irony. How I love thee. Now I'm going to go write an original story about an Italian man named Vito who gets an offer he can't refuse.

ROFL, that made me burst out laughing, thanks man. :)

OT: Aren't the spare marines in Halo called Spartans? And weren't the Greek warriors known for their fellowship?

For that matter a gay relationship in ME1-2 would have been cool, but all things considered the relationships the female characters could get into weren't as developed IMO. Specifically in the second game. Nothing attractive about that green skinned dood. Zevran on the other hand; he had Style.

mjc0961:

Therumancer:
Perhaps I am missing the intention here, but I seem to remember a lot being said about whether or not Marcus Fenix and Dom were gay despite Dom's wife (who was gone). Similar things have been said about other hyper-macho military type games, where the developers seemed to be trying to get attention.

...

When it comes to Issac Clark, I'm not sure if all the space faring military in that setting are Marines or not myself. The dude spends the whole game pining over Nicole, so he's definatly not gay.

So, Dom spends the whole game pining over and looking for his wife, but he can still be gay. Issac Clark spends the whole game pining over and locking for his wife or girlfriend, but he's not gay? Why? Only difference is Issac Clark doesn't have other guys fighting next to him. Being alone excludes him from being gay, but Dom isn't safe because he also spends the game hanging out with 3 other guys most of the time?

Sounds about as dumb as the stuff when people say things like "Well all sports players must be gay because they run around getting all sweaty and then take a group shower." Apparently doing anything with other men makes you gay in some people's minds.

I am not a big shooter fan. I have played Dead Space (due to the horror elements) but not Gears Of War, so I admit I am speaking from second hand information and what I have heard other people say.

As I understand things, Marcus and Dom being a couple doesn't come from them simply being manly men who work together, or those jokes, but from innuendos in their interplay with each other. The big question being how far you have to read into some of the things that are said and the scenes are shot. Basically, that it's intended, but very subtle. Another person responding to this thread who was apparently gay even made a comment about how they would prefer that they be more overt about it than this kind of subtle implication, doubtlessly having heard the same things (or seen it first hand).

The differance with Issac, is that there were no implications at all. Oh sure, him being solitary makes that nearly impossible to begin with, but we're talking about the intent of the writers here. Issac being gay was not something intended to be projected, even in a subtle sense, by the makers of "Dead Space". On the other hand man-love WAS intended by the developers of Gears Of War.

A better example would perhaps be comparing "Gears Of War" to maybe "Army Of Two" (which I also haven't played). People joke around about "Army Of Two" involving a gay couple, heck Yahtzee based a big part of his review around that. However that's people trying to be funny, given that it's obviously not intended (being more of a "Buddy Cop" type thing with overdone mercenaries). With "Gears Of War" a lot of people seem to find the implications in the game, right there, and apparently intended, no projection needed or joking "re-interpetations" needed.

Apologies if this is still unclear. Truthfully you'd do better to have a discussion with other Gears Of War fans on the subject, and try and pin down some specifics, than trying to argue with me. One way or another, Gears Of War has apparently generated a certain reputatation that even non-fans and non-players have picked up on through the gaming community, and that is why it sticks out.

The writing in games generally bites. Hard.

It says a lot that many advocates of video games as an art form excitedly point to Metal Gear Solid 4 as the height of scripting excellence: in reality it isn't a good enough script for a Uwe Boll film, and it's pretentious to boot.

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