Notorious iPhone Hacker Posts PS3 Master Key Online

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Danzaivar:

Admittedly someone could make a PS2 emulator for the PS3 and the PS3 would properly recognise it now, but for PS3 games I don't get it.

Holy hell, is this possible? Just think of all the classic games this would reawaken.

Aurgelmir:
Pirates Rejoice?

Or will this mean harder DRM for PS3?

o god no,
that sounds awfull, and i just bought a good game

not another 4 months of updating and security checks

Straying Bullet:
Action -> Reaction.

DRM is a reaction to the said Action [ Piracy ]. Pirates are killing the industry they 'love' so much.

No, Greedo shot first dammit.

Harbinger_:
I wouldn't hire someone who just potentially cost my company millions of dollars by enabling every Tom, Dick and Harriet the option to pirate games. Some of which cost 60+ dollars in retail.

I would, if I am paying them, and they are under contract, they won't be able to do it again.

Starke:
The first episodes were released as freeware. That was part of ID's marketing plan back then. For both Doom and Quake. Well... It's possible that the Quake Demo wasn't the full first episode, but still.

They were shareware, not freeware, pretty big difference. Also since when were either Doom or Quake episodic?

D_987:

snip...

No, you can't - act as pretentious as you want - you're wrong, by law, and by terms and conditions you cannot "do whatever I want" to something...like modifying an Xbox 360 and then getting banned from Xbox Live, sure you could modify it, but no doubt you'd be the first to complain when you inevitably get banned...

It's amazing how many people seem to think term and conditions are law...

Straying Bullet:

Action -> Reaction.

DRM is a reaction to the said Action [ Piracy ]. Pirates are killing the industry they 'love' so much.

You're a fool if you believe piracy is actually killing anything. Piracy was most damaging for indie game devs which would see more copies of the game get pirated than purchased. That really isn't the case anymore because of Steam, XBLA, etc.

Remember kiddies, the DRM didn't last from launch till now, it lasted from the removal of OtherOS till now.

So yeah, lesson to Sony is the people who play with your console for fun are smarter and more talented than the guys you paid to design and build it. Those are the people you don't piss off.

mindlesspuppet:

It's amazing how many people seem to think term and conditions are law...

I don't think I ever said that either, merely that said terms and conditions stop people from doing "whatever they want", in fact I even separated the categories so "law" and "terms and conditions" were completely separate concepts - is it so difficult to read before you quote?

I really don't think this is going to have much effect, if any, on Sony's bottom line. Pirates only constitute a tiny minority of the market and the PS3 has millions of loyal fans who would never pirate a game.

.... We live in a golden age...

D_987:

mindlesspuppet:

It's amazing how many people seem to think term and conditions are law...

I don't think I ever said that either, merely that said terms and conditions stop people from doing "whatever they want", in fact I even separated the categories so "law" and "terms and conditions" were completely separate concepts - is it so difficult to read before you quote?

I did read it, I also noticed that you group them with "law", therein implying they carry as much weight as the law. They don't. Terms and conditions are a joke. Remember this http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/04/15/gamestation-we-own-your-soul/1 ?

mindlesspuppet:

Starke:
The first episodes were released as freeware. That was part of ID's marketing plan back then. For both Doom and Quake. Well... It's possible that the Quake Demo wasn't the full first episode, but still.

They were shareware, not freeware, pretty big difference. Also since when were either Doom or Quake episodic?

Technically correct, it was a minor gaffe. The fact remains that the first episode of Doom was released by ID for free, you were expected to pay for the second and third episode.

As for your second question? Since E1M1. Okay in the off chance there's some huge gap in your memory all of the Doom games prior to Doom3 and at least the first Quake game used an episodic structure.

mindlesspuppet:

D_987:

snip...

No, you can't - act as pretentious as you want - you're wrong, by law, and by terms and conditions you cannot "do whatever I want" to something...like modifying an Xbox 360 and then getting banned from Xbox Live, sure you could modify it, but no doubt you'd be the first to complain when you inevitably get banned...

It's amazing how many people seem to think term and conditions are law...

Fact remains that it (bypassing a console's DRM) is illegal under the DMCA, and prohibited by terms of service, so he's got you coming and going.

Delusibeta:

Starke:

DataSnake:
The funniest part is that the hacker was only able to do this because Sony's "random number" function actually returns the same value every time you call it.

You can't be serious.

From my understanding, that's the fundamental flaw. As I said before, Sony has no-one to blame but themselves for this one.

Talk about amateur hour... gah, my mind is completely fuckin' boggled.

D_987:

You're comparing learning about how to do something, to actually doing it? Makes sense...
As I said previously, there's really little else to do with this information other than pirate games [since the PS3 is just a weak computer at heart] yes there're legal uses, but if you beleive anyone is actually going to go through all that trouble to use them you're incredibly naive, this information will no doubt cost Sony and developers, and bring the private companies that produce these goods and rely on continuous income to survive no potencial gains, only losses.

We're talking about INFORMATION being restricted, it is the same thing, the information on how to build a nuclear weapons is out there, the information on genetics is out there, why shouldn't the information about a game console be out there?

As for "no-one", I invite you to look at the original X-Box, look at the massive amount of code that was written for it to improve the system, look at the Wii and it's homebrew channel. Just because the PS3 is basically a computer, doesn't mean that people don't want to play around with it.

Hell using your logic people shouldn't be allowed to work on their own cars, after all it costs the manufactures, dealerships, and repair centres money because they last longer.

D_987:

I have to laugh, you're going off on a rant about the US government in the 90's? Not only does that have nothing to do with the point - at all - you're just naming theories you have with little to no evidence to back them up. Prove the reason PGP wasn't given permission to be sold outside the states was due to "it made snooping on people's information too hard". If you can't, then there's no rational argument here -

Why else would a government restrict the sale of encryption software? Come-on, one logical reason.

D_987:

No, you can't - act as pretentious as you want - you're wrong, by law, and by terms and conditions you cannot "do whatever I want" to something...like modifying an Xbox 360 and then getting banned from Xbox Live, sure you could modify it, but no doubt you'd be the first to complain when you inevitably get banned...

PSN and XBL are additional services they are not physical products, I haven't modded my 360 because I value the service provided by XBL more then I desire the ability to run my own programs, I'm perfectly okay with them deciding what type of machines can access their service, just the same way I'm okay with banks only allowing certain browsers or requiring the latest version of browsers to access netbanking to cut down on the amount of work they have to do to secure the site, the same way I'm perfectly okay with fancy restaurants requiring shoes if you want to eat there.

There is a difference between a service and a product, a service is provided to you as-is, a product is yours to do with as you please, a warranty is a service, I'm okay with terms and conditions on that, the actual device is a product, if I want to rip the guts out of my device that I paid for and play ping-pong with the parts or use it to make a home arcade cabinet that's no-ones business but myself, but I sure as shit wouldn't expect them to fit my mistakes under warranty.

mindlesspuppet:

I did read it, I also noticed that you group them with "law", therein implying they carry as much weight as the law. They don't. Terms and conditions are a joke. Remember this http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/04/15/gamestation-we-own-your-soul/1 ?

They have some legal standing, and no the fact I grouped it with the law was due to the fact both are examples of documentation that stop a person from doing "what they want", implication is in the eye of the beholder, and you're wrong on this point.

Starke:

snip...

As for your second question? Since E1M1. Okay in the off chance there's some huge gap in your memory all of the Doom games prior to Doom3 and at least the first Quake game used an episodic structure.

Misinterpretation on my part, it came off like you were referring to Doom and Quake being released in similar fashion to today's episodic games, eg. HL: Ep 1 & 2.

mindlesspuppet:

D_987:

snip...

No, you can't - act as pretentious as you want - you're wrong, by law, and by terms and conditions you cannot "do whatever I want" to something...like modifying an Xbox 360 and then getting banned from Xbox Live, sure you could modify it, but no doubt you'd be the first to complain when you inevitably get banned...

It's amazing how many people seem to think term and conditions are law...

Fact remains that it (bypassing a console's DRM) is illegal under the DMCA, and prohibited by terms of service, so he's got you coming and going.[/quote]

Actually the whole DMCA thing is pretty fuzzy, especially as the court case involving the PS3 modding got tossed out last year. The law itself is pretty terribly written, and overly concerned with technologies that aren't of huge consequence anymore (VCRs). That being said, modding consoles falls into a gray area until some precedent is set.

So Sony, how's that "removing Install Other OS will stop piracy!" plan working out for you? What's that? Lawsuits? Much greater piracy than ever before? Oh ho ho Sony, you rascals.

Starke:
As for your second question? Since E1M1. Okay in the off chance there's some huge gap in your memory all of the Doom games prior to Doom3 and at least the first Quake game used an episodic structure.

Wrong. Doom 2 threw it out the window and just let you play from level 1 to level 30 without any "Thanks for finishing episode 1, be sure to play episode 2 and enjoy starting over with just a pistol again!" nonsense. The huge gap is actually in your memory.

tkioz:
We're talking about INFORMATION being restricted, it is the same thing, the information on how to build a nuclear weapons is out there, the information on genetics is out there, why shouldn't the information about a game console be out there?

You're asking me a question I already answered in the previous post - piracy, and the fact that nothing good will come of this except greater amounts of it.

As for "no-one", I invite you to look at the original X-Box, look at the massive amount of code that was written for it to improve the system, look at the Wii and it's homebrew channel. Just because the PS3 is basically a computer, doesn't mean that people don't want to play around with it.

I invite you to look at the DS, at the number of people pirating games for the 360 [a greater amount than any that would have used code to improve the system] you're arguing about the minority of users.

Hell using your logic people shouldn't be allowed to work on their own cars, after all it costs the manufactures, dealerships, and repair centres money because they last longer.

That's a terrible analogy that has little to do with the point. Pirating games, and therefore not giving any money to the developers of said game is an entirely different matter to fixing your own car - it's more like making a replica of your own car and giving it away to other people; is that fair?

Why else would a government restrict the sale of encryption software? Come-on, one logical reason.

Because encryption software aids those that wish to hide their illegal activities - as the saying goes if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. You still have no evidence to suggest it's due to them wishing to "spy" on people. No evidence, no rational point.

PSN and XBL are additional services they are not physical products, I haven't modded my 360 because I value the service provided by XBL more then I desire the ability to run my own programs, I'm perfectly okay with them deciding what type of machines can access their service, just the same way I'm okay with banks only allowing certain browsers or requiring the latest version of browsers to access netbanking to cut down on the amount of work they have to do to secure the site, the same way I'm perfectly okay with fancy restaurants requiring shoes if you want to eat there.

There is a difference between a service and a product, a service is provided to you as-is, a product is yours to do with as you please, a warranty is a service, I'm okay with terms and conditions on that, the actual device is a product, if I want to rip the guts out of my device that I paid for and play ping-pong with the parts or use it to make a home arcade cabinet that's no-ones business but myself, but I sure as shit wouldn't expect them to fit my mistakes under warranty.

Games are a service to the product [without a PS3 your PS3 games are worthless], this information is on how to acquire those services illegally, amongst other things - it's not on ripping apart your PS3 - now you're changing the subject of your own debate, perhaps because you realize you're otherwise supporting piracy?

D_987:

You're asking me a question I already answered in the previous post - piracy, and the fact that nothing good will come of this except greater amounts of it.

People learn to program generally from the desire to create something that they can not find, I know I did, I wanted a program for a task, I couldn't find one, so I wrote one.

Just because some people might use this information to pirate games doesn't mean that the information itself can only be used to pirate games.

D_987:
I invite you to look at the DS, at the number of people pirating games for the 360 [a greater amount than any that would have used code to improve the system] you're arguing about the minority of users.

And I invite you to think about your logic here, just because some people do something immoral with a tool, it doesn't make the tool itself immoral.

D_987:

That's a terrible analogy that has little to do with the point. Pirating games, and therefore not giving any money to the developers of said game is an entirely different matter to fixing your own car - it's more like making a replica of your own car and giving it away to other people; is that fair?

It's not a bad analogy, it's a reasonable one actually, you argue that people having access to information, which is neutral by itself, is immoral, because access to said information might cost them future sales, the same logic can be applied to many many things.

And on the subject of "fairness", first life isn't fair, and second yes, it is perfectly fair, it's done all the time actually. People make cars out of old parts and sell them.

D_987:

Because encryption software aids those that wish to hide their illegal activities - as the saying goes if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. You still have no evidence to suggest it's due to them wishing to "spy" on people. No evidence, no rational point.

I'm legally allowed to own a car, I'm legally allowed to own a knife, I'm legally allowed to own many other things that can be used in an illegal and immoral manner, if I do so I'm breaking the law and thus I should be punished, but just because I own them doesn't mean I'll use them to break the law.

Putting a lock on your door to prevent people from breaking in also prevents police from entering easily to apprehend criminals.

The US government restricted the sale of software to people because it made it too hard for them to spy on information, that's simple truth, weather or not that had a right or need to that information is irrelevant.

D_987:

Games are a service to the product [without a PS3 your PS3 games are worthless], this information is on how to acquire those services illegally, amongst other things - it's not on ripping apart your PS3 - now you're changing the subject of your own debate, perhaps because you realize you're otherwise supporting piracy?

You're the one who brought up being banned from XBL for modding a console, you're the one acquainting the service and the product, not I. The PS3 and the XB360 are both devices with more functions then simply playing games. Games are the central function of the devices, I will admit that, and it is the reason I own a 360, it is however not the entire function and if I found a function I valued more then the games, even if it made the option of playing the games impossible it is my right to do so with a device I have purchased.

And I'm not changing the subject, you're the one attempting that, I do not support piracy I said that in my very first post, I think it's immoral, I also think that the suppression of information for the protection of a corporation's profit margin is immoral on an order higher then piracy.

tkioz:

ZephrC:

Corpse XxX:
If the effort of copying games gets easier than walking to store, finding the game in the shelves and draw my visa in the machine, then i might just consider it..

But until then, im gonna do what i have always done, pay up fair and square.
And as long as it is easier and faster to do it the legal way, most people will do it that way im guessing.

And that is why piracy is such a huge problem on PC, and why most PC DRM is completely counterproductive.

Well piracy was easier then buying a game, it's not now, not with services like Steam on the PC; click buy, hit next on the paypal screen, hit install. Not stuffing around with keygens, cracks, different update software from the stupid devs, etc, just one button finished.

I don't pirate, I did once, when everyone did it (hands up those that played Doom and Quake back when they were new that actually paid for them?), but stopped when I started to get actual real money myself and realised "hey I'd be pissed off too if someone stole my hard work".

Hmm... I'd actually be interested to see how piracy of Steam games compares to piracy of games with horrible DRM.

tkioz:

And I'm not changing the subject, you're the one attempting that, I do not support piracy I said that in my very first post, I think it's immoral, I also think that the suppression of information for the protection of a corporation's profit margin is immoral on an order higher then piracy.

Talking about other companies, some companies exploit that by saying their information is proprietary so they don't release the ingredients of their products. If there's something poisonous in the product, consumers won't find out until there are reports of that.

D_987:

Because encryption software aids those that wish to hide their illegal activities - as the saying goes if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. You still have no evidence to suggest it's due to them wishing to "spy" on people. No evidence, no rational point.

I could just be misreading your post, but are you saying encryption software helps people hide illegal activites? The consoles being talked about use encryption, game makers sometimes use encryption to hide their files. That's not illegal activity, as far as I can tell. MGS4 has encrypted files that folks at Xentax have been trying to get at. For those that don't know, Xentax is about game resource archive information and related.

mindlesspuppet:

Starke:

snip...

As for your second question? Since E1M1. Okay in the off chance there's some huge gap in your memory all of the Doom games prior to Doom3 and at least the first Quake game used an episodic structure.

Misinterpretation on my part, it came off like you were referring to Doom and Quake being released in similar fashion to today's episodic games, eg. HL: Ep 1 & 2.

Yeah, that's understandable. From what I recall of Doom's business model there was a slight gap of a week or two between when Episode 1 became available and when 2 and 3 were up for grabs, but that's not really relevant, nor what we're talking about. However, you could purchase episodes 2 and 3 separately back then, so there is a weird kind of parity there at least.

mindlesspuppet:

Actually the whole DMCA thing is pretty fuzzy, especially as the court case involving the PS3 modding got tossed out last year. The law itself is pretty terribly written, and overly concerned with technologies that aren't of huge consequence anymore (VCRs). That being said, modding consoles falls into a gray area until some precedent is set.

Well, VCRs actually had a precedent already in place protecting them... Sony v. Xerox (I think), which provided some limited liability protections to analog duplication methods. That said, electronic duplication measures, like ripping DVDs should never have been covered under the case because they don't meet some of the provisions. As to the DMCA being poorly written? Yeah, no contest there. If it was well written you couldn't use the interoperability clause to basically do whatever you want.

D_987:
I have to laugh, you're going off on a rant about the US government in the 90's? Not only does that have nothing to do with the point - at all - you're just naming theories you have with little to no evidence to back them up. Prove the reason PGP wasn't given permission to be sold outside the states was due to "it made snooping on people's information too hard". If you can't, then there's no rational argument here - whilst my point [that releasing security information is more likely to present yourself as a potential target and offer assistance to your enemies] is pretty much common knowledge, it's why the Army goes to such lengths to protect secretive information, for example. Same goes for this hack, and pirating games - need evidence? Look at the DS.

PGP was classified as dual-use technology back in the 90s, and was by extension illegal to export.

if i can get my hands on that key i'll make a ps2 emulator

D_987:
Because encryption software aids those that wish to hide their illegal activities - as the saying goes if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. You still have no evidence to suggest it's due to them wishing to "spy" on people. No evidence, no rational point.

As a software developer I keep any client-sensitive information and source code encrypted in case my computer is ever stolen. Encryption software is really bloody useful.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with whatever that statements in context to, I'm just saying there is some very important stuff that needs to be encrypted.

LT Cannibal 68:
if i can get my hands on that key i'll make a ps2 emulator

and you shall be my messiah, and I shall place many great offerings at your feet.

If it's possible to make my PS3 plays my PS2 games, I'll be back on Persona before you can say 'OH MY GOD Why is she shooting herself in the face!'

The unfortunate problems of piracy bog down what I will support, full use at least on a personal level of every smidge of products you buy. It's like pc devs killing mod groups, just because someone made something they don't like, its like if they banned fo3 mods because that girl made naked raider models.

This all sucks really.

Obviously, this all started on the removal of the "Other OS" option. I'm in the boat where I didn't use it at all and didn't give two shits about it, and don't understand why other people did anyway. I guess Sony did "advertise" it or whatever, though what constitutes as an advertisement or just something in the manual or a blog post remains to be explained to me.

In all honesty, I think people just heavily overreacted to this whole ordeal. While I understand that a small minority of PS3 users actively used the "Other OS" option for their own reasons, I just don't see the big deal about it.

Regarding this topic, this is just a circular case of action and reaction. People pirated games, so Sony makes it harder for them to pirate it, they try harder, Sony try harder making the legitimate buyers suffer because of it, the pirates go even further with it causing Sony to become more restrictive making more legitimate customers suffer. It all just sucks.

I would love to know, however, what other uses could there be with this information other than using it for piracy? I would honestly like to know, what with people going "Homebrew is not just for piracy!" Name me 4 or so features that can be used legitimately, and how many people actually use that kind of feature. I say 4 because it's a nice, round number anyway.

Logan Westbrook:
I don't know whether Hotz is genuinely hoping that people won't abuse the key, or whether he'd just trying to cover his own back, but either way, he's much easier for a lot of would-be pirates.

Does anyone even TRY to copy edit at The Escapist?

The Rogue Wolf:

Logan Westbrook:
It's believed, although not confirmed, that Sony will have trouble changing this key without rendering a lot of PS3 software inoperable.

And if it were any other company we were talking about here, I would just sort of shake my head and laugh, and say "But that would never happen". But this is Sony... are we SURE we can put this past them?

There is only one possible future.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/8093-Critical-Miss-34

Danzaivar:
How does this help pirates? Won't this key just be useful for creating new apps (I.e. Homebrew) and calling them PS3 ones? Surely the pirated games would already have their key embedded?

Admittedly someone could make a PS2 emulator for the PS3 and the PS3 would properly recognise it now, but for PS3 games I don't get it.

(Note: DRM is not my speciality, these are genuine questions)

I like that the possible hacks includes becoming backwards compatible. I wish I had the money to buy one while they still played PS2 games. My old PS2 is on its last leg, I may end up buying a second ps2 before forking out for a ps3.

I would love for this to come back and bite this douche bag (the hacker not the anyone in the thread) in the ass. Him basicly trying to blackmail companies into highering him so they sue him and walk away with his house laughing the entire time.

Danzaivar:
How does this help pirates? Won't this key just be useful for creating new apps (I.e. Homebrew) and calling them PS3 ones? Surely the pirated games would already have their key embedded?

Admittedly someone could make a PS2 emulator for the PS3 and the PS3 would properly recognise it now, but for PS3 games I don't get it.

(Note: DRM is not my speciality, these are genuine questions)

With these keygens and other such brute force programs could be made, or programs that could detect patterns in the generations of the keygens, making it significantly easier to crack games.

Aerialfrogg:

Danzaivar:
How does this help pirates? Won't this key just be useful for creating new apps (I.e. Homebrew) and calling them PS3 ones? Surely the pirated games would already have their key embedded?

Admittedly someone could make a PS2 emulator for the PS3 and the PS3 would properly recognise it now, but for PS3 games I don't get it.

(Note: DRM is not my speciality, these are genuine questions)

I like that the possible hacks includes becoming backwards compatible. I wish I had the money to buy one while they still played PS2 games. My old PS2 is on its last leg, I may end up buying a second ps2 before forking out for a ps3.

it wont make the lazer disc read things it is not compatible with. They can not make a software change the limitations of the hardware. Everyone thinking this will in any way lead to you popping your ps2 games into your ps3 and it working if it doesnt already is wrong straight up.

psrdirector:

Aerialfrogg:

Danzaivar:
How does this help pirates? Won't this key just be useful for creating new apps (I.e. Homebrew) and calling them PS3 ones? Surely the pirated games would already have their key embedded?

Admittedly someone could make a PS2 emulator for the PS3 and the PS3 would properly recognise it now, but for PS3 games I don't get it.

(Note: DRM is not my speciality, these are genuine questions)

I like that the possible hacks includes becoming backwards compatible. I wish I had the money to buy one while they still played PS2 games. My old PS2 is on its last leg, I may end up buying a second ps2 before forking out for a ps3.

it wont make the lazer disc read things it is not compatible with. They can not make a software change the limitations of the hardware. Everyone thinking this will in any way lead to you popping your ps2 games into your ps3 and it working if it doesnt already is wrong straight up.

Right, not actual discs, but I wouldn't feel bad pirating PS2 games I own to play on an emulator. (However at that point I would probably go down the slippery slope and download games I don't have.)

Thanks Hotz! Im looking forward to my playstation having to be always signed into PSN just to play my games!

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