Tax Aid Is Make or Break Issue for UK Games Industry, Says Trade Body

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Tax Aid Is Make or Break Issue for UK Games Industry, Says Trade Body

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Trade body TIGA says that no one is benefiting from the lack of tax breaks for the UK videogame industry.

If the UK Government doesn't start supporting the videogame industry, hundreds of jobs could disappear within five years. That's according to TIGA, following its submission of an 85-page appeal to the Coalition government, once again asking for tax breaks.

TIGA CEO Richard Wilson said if the UK government was really hoping to revitalize the economy, then encouraging growth in the videogame sector would be an excellent way to do it. He said that the government clearly understood the value of "cultural" tax breaks, as it had granted them to the UK film industry. A similar initiative for the videogame industry would create more jobs, Wilson said, as well as boost investment and generate tax revenue.

TIGA predicts that its proposal will generate over 1,300 new jobs in development roles, as well as nearly 2,500 "indirect jobs." Tax revenues would be in the region of £126 million, and the contribution to GDP would be around £307 million. Conversely, if the government rejected the proposal, Wilson warned that there was a very real risk that jobs and investment could be lost. The current number of jobs in the industry - nearly 3,500 - has apparently shrunk by 9% since TIGA first put forward its original proposal in 2008. Wilson said that that number could go down by a further 25% by 2015, if the government didn't intercede.

Unfortunately, with debts stretching into the billions, the UK government may have no other choice than to risk losing those jobs, as TIGA's scheme will cost money that it simply doesn't have. The Coalition has commented in the past that it would rather encourage overall growth with initiatives like a reduction in corporation tax, rather than single out one particular industry.

Source: Games Industry

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Logan Westbrook:
Trade body TIGA says that no one is benefiting from the lack of tax breaks for the UK videogame industry.

Hey, jerk-o. THE REST OF SOCIETY benefits from the lack of CORPORATE WELFARE based on your industry. Do you hire educated workers? THEN FUCKING PAY TO EDUCATE THEM. Generating jobs is NOT the same as PAYING TAXES ON YOUR PROFITS.

Leeches.

(p.s. Logan Westbrook is in no way meant to be the target of the epitaph, "jerk-o". In this instance.)

Not happening.

The ConDem nation are trying to stop women from working, stop anyone below millionaire status from going to university, destroying job security, taxing the ever-loving bejesus out of the working class and on top of that raise taxes on everything.

You really think they're going to give money to the videogames industry? They probably think videogames are responsible for broken Britain.

David Cameron's government (I know I should call it a coalition but lets not kid ourselves, the Conservatives are running this show) may not look like old men, but they are. Every single one of them is an old man, crying about nostalgia, and wanting to return to a past that NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!

Considering most of the games development students I know who seriously want a career in the industry are planning on emigrating because there's barely any games companies here, I'm inclined to agree.

Why stick around in the UK when other countries offer tax breaks? That's not even taking into account the ridiculous levels of tax levied at the workers here or the crazy rates of corporation tax for the businesses...

They'll offer £2000 per car to support people buying european/american/asian cars, but screw supporting stuff made in Britain, eh?

Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

Well im moving to Canada, anyone else want to join me eh?

move all your stuff to quebec or some US state.

I'll appreciate it.

VaderMan92:
Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

Lol, I'd say the Tories are making a good stab at getting rid of any semblance of socialism over here - privatise the NHS, raise VAT, lower income tax on the top earners.... it's all a fucking joke.

Logan Westbrook:

TIGA predicts that its proposal will generate over 1,300 new jobs in development roles, as well as nearly 2,500 "indirect jobs." Tax revenues would be in the region of £126 million, and the contribution to GDP would be around £307 million. Conversely, if the government rejected the proposal, Wilson warned that there was a very real risk that jobs and investment could be lost. The current number of jobs in the industry - nearly 3,500 - has apparently shrunk by 9% since TIGA first put forward its original proposal in 2008. Wilson said that that number could go down by a further 25% by 2015, if the government didn't intercede.

...

The Coalition has commented in the past that it would rather encourage overall growth with initiatives like a reduction in corporation tax...

Hah, lets be honest: no way are the ConDems interested in supporting this crazy newfangled industry that just makes death simulators when they're busy cutting all the public spending they can lay their hands on. Their approach to recovery pretty much is all about the short term savings, with absolutely no consideration of mid-term recovery, let alone long-term effects. Well reasoned and researched arguments about job and wealth creation won't pass muster whilst there's still some public service to sell off! Everything must go!!!

Capitalism FTW (with some government interference to prevent monopoly of course) competition is king.

Ranooth:
Well im moving to Canada, anyone else want to join me eh?

Right behind you.

What, something done right in this shit hole nation?

fuck right off, that's not happening.

I hear Canada is nice. Cool weather, too.

MelasZepheos:
Not happening.

The ConDem nation are trying to stop women from working, stop anyone below millionaire status from going to university, destroying job security, taxing the ever-loving bejesus out of the working class and on top of that raise taxes on everything.

You really think they're going to give money to the videogames industry? They probably think videogames are responsible for broken Britain.

David Cameron's government (I know I should call it a coalition but lets not kid ourselves, the Conservatives are running this show) may not look like old men, but they are. Every single one of them is an old man, crying about nostalgia, and wanting to return to a past that NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!

While unpleasant understand that big problems are not going to ever be solved without sudden, radical change. No matter what you do, a ton of people are going to be happy, and the current status quos are going to change due to them being unworkable. The big disagreement being in how that change happens.

Assuming your being accurate understand that right now there are problems throughout the first world (here in the US as well as in the UK) with child rearing in a general sense. Due to women's sufferage all the women went to work, the economies changed in response to a model where two incomes are nessicary to provide for a family. With both parents working, taking care of the kids is VERY difficult to do, and causes all kinds of problems that wouldn't exist if you had a full time home-maker/parent.

To be fair someone can ask "why does it have to be the women? why not the men?" that is a fair question, but one that can be answered by simply pointing out that women ARE wired far better for caring for children, even if men are fully capable of doing the job as well. Perhaps it would be at it's most fair to prevent both parents in a household from working or something in a general sense, but I can see why they are going with efforts to keep women out of the workforce.

That whole issue is a giant can of worms, there is literally no good solution to the problem that is not going to cause massive problems because of how society has changed around the current structure.

With education, that in of itself is another sucktastic issue. Education is a good thing, until you consider that in order to function society needs a LOT more people at the bottom of the totem pole than at the top. The world needs it's food service workers, farmers, janitors, factory labourers, and everything else to keep things running. However with an education when pretty much everyone goes to college/university, you wind up with everyone being qualified to do something impressive, and nobody wants to do those crap jobs. When forced into those jobs you see massive problems with societal discontent. Solutions like "well, we'll let immigrants come in to do those jobs" which we tried in the US don't work, because once the people immigrate their children become educated and wind up wanting those good jobs themselves.

Add to this competition, and an increasingly small number of jobs as technology makes things easier, and well, a lot of first world countries wind up with people holding degrees out on the streets doing nothing.

Right now there is resentment of the idea of an educational system designed to provide worker drones (so to speak), however it can be argued that this is a good idea. Prepping people who aren't competitive for college/university is a waste of everyone's time and money, as is trying to indoctrinate kids with a "you are special", "you can do anything" message when their future just going by the math awaits in one of the ruts the rest of us are in.

In general early testing tends to seperate the smart and talented from the rest of the herd as it is. If your not recognized as a genius or whatever by the age of like 11, your future is pretty much decided. There are a few other chances to break away, but that's pretty much how things are even if it's unfair.

The point here is that there is a solid case, as sucktastic as it is, for a more pragmatic educational system designed around the need of producing a working class. Indoctrinating everyone to be a leader causes a lot of problems when there is nobody to lead.

All of this sucks, but well, I can see where these guys are coming from. It seems like a solid set of positions, and while there is a lot to hate there, there are worse ideas, and I'm sure just about any other proposed solution/movement is going to anger just as many people. After all nobody wants to be told "you have to give up your career, and oh, you know Junior... yeah well he's a very average person, we're going to groom him to enter the blue collar workforce".

At any rate, after that rant (which hopefully some people read without flaming) I will say that I'm a bit surprised there is so much desire for the goverment to give tax breaks to the gaming industry to be honest.

See, right now people are just looking at the roses and rainbows side of that, game developers having more money to put into games. In the long term though they are just as likely to wind up pocketing the money they save (just as they do with the money they save on packaging, distribution, and materials when they release digitally). What's more what will be a short term boom, will eventually become a hardwired part of the industry, and relied upon as part of the business model. This means that the goverment will be able to leverage game development throught he tax breaks.

While your from the UK, I'd imagine you've probably heard the whole thing about California's Governor bringing what amounts to a censorship bill (in an offhanded way) to the Supreme Court. This entire mess would be worse if the game industry was receiving more direct goverment incentives. After all, no matter how iron clad something seems when it first goes through, the goverment can always threaten those benefits. "Play ball with what we want, or we'll go after that tax break your getting". If the industry has structured itself around that Tax break and needs it as part of it's operating structure... well now you have problems.

The less govermental fingers in game development the better I'd think.

Unfortunately, with debts stretching into the billions, the UK government may have no other choice than to risk losing those jobs, as TIGA's scheme will cost money that it simply doesn't have. The Coalition has commented in the past that it would rather encourage overall growth with initiatives like a reduction in corporation tax, rather than single out one particular industry.

sounds like a pretty vicious cycle for the Brittish. There loss, the video games industry might be able to reinvigorate the economy with givecash cheats

dont worry england they saved a seat for you in the Great PIIGS

MelasZepheos:
Not happening.

The ConDem nation are trying to stop women from working, stop anyone below millionaire status from going to university, destroying job security, taxing the ever-loving bejesus out of the working class and on top of that raise taxes on everything.

You really think they're going to give money to the videogames industry? They probably think videogames are responsible for broken Britain.

David Cameron's government (I know I should call it a coalition but lets not kid ourselves, the Conservatives are running this show) may not look like old men, but they are. Every single one of them is an old man, crying about nostalgia, and wanting to return to a past that NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!

Well I think to go cromwell on there arse is coming burn the lot of them.
Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00y37gk/Posh_and_Posher_Why_Public_School_Boys_Run_Britain/

Therumancer:

MelasZepheos:
Not happening.

The ConDem nation are trying to stop women from working, stop anyone below millionaire status from going to university, destroying job security, taxing the ever-loving bejesus out of the working class and on top of that raise taxes on everything.

You really think they're going to give money to the videogames industry? They probably think videogames are responsible for broken Britain.

David Cameron's government (I know I should call it a coalition but lets not kid ourselves, the Conservatives are running this show) may not look like old men, but they are. Every single one of them is an old man, crying about nostalgia, and wanting to return to a past that NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!

While unpleasant understand that big problems are not going to ever be solved without sudden, radical change. No matter what you do, a ton of people are going to be happy, and the current status quos are going to change due to them being unworkable. The big disagreement being in how that change happens.

Assuming your being accurate understand that right now there are problems throughout the first world (here in the US as well as in the UK) with child rearing in a general sense. Due to women's sufferage all the women went to work, the economies changed in response to a model where two incomes are nessicary to provide for a family. With both parents working, taking care of the kids is VERY difficult to do, and causes all kinds of problems that wouldn't exist if you had a full time home-maker/parent.

To be fair someone can ask "why does it have to be the women? why not the men?" that is a fair question, but one that can be answered by simply pointing out that women ARE wired far better for caring for children, even if men are fully capable of doing the job as well. Perhaps it would be at it's most fair to prevent both parents in a household from working or something in a general sense, but I can see why they are going with efforts to keep women out of the workforce.

That whole issue is a giant can of worms, there is literally no good solution to the problem that is not going to cause massive problems because of how society has changed around the current structure.

With education, that in of itself is another sucktastic issue. Education is a good thing, until you consider that in order to function society needs a LOT more people at the bottom of the totem pole than at the top. The world needs it's food service workers, farmers, janitors, factory labourers, and everything else to keep things running. However with an education when pretty much everyone goes to college/university, you wind up with everyone being qualified to do something impressive, and nobody wants to do those crap jobs. When forced into those jobs you see massive problems with societal discontent. Solutions like "well, we'll let immigrants come in to do those jobs" which we tried in the US don't work, because once the people immigrate their children become educated and wind up wanting those good jobs themselves.

Add to this competition, and an increasingly small number of jobs as technology makes things easier, and well, a lot of first world countries wind up with people holding degrees out on the streets doing nothing.

Right now there is resentment of the idea of an educational system designed to provide worker drones (so to speak), however it can be argued that this is a good idea. Prepping people who aren't competitive for college/university is a waste of everyone's time and money, as is trying to indoctrinate kids with a "you are special", "you can do anything" message when their future just going by the math awaits in one of the ruts the rest of us are in.

In general early testing tends to seperate the smart and talented from the rest of the herd as it is. If your not recognized as a genius or whatever by the age of like 11, your future is pretty much decided. There are a few other chances to break away, but that's pretty much how things are even if it's unfair.

The point here is that there is a solid case, as sucktastic as it is, for a more pragmatic educational system designed around the need of producing a working class. Indoctrinating everyone to be a leader causes a lot of problems when there is nobody to lead.

All of this sucks, but well, I can see where these guys are coming from. It seems like a solid set of positions, and while there is a lot to hate there, there are worse ideas, and I'm sure just about any other proposed solution/movement is going to anger just as many people. After all nobody wants to be told "you have to give up your career, and oh, you know Junior... yeah well he's a very average person, we're going to groom him to enter the blue collar workforce".

At any rate, after that rant (which hopefully some people read without flaming) I will say that I'm a bit surprised there is so much desire for the goverment to give tax breaks to the gaming industry to be honest.

See, right now people are just looking at the roses and rainbows side of that, game developers having more money to put into games. In the long term though they are just as likely to wind up pocketing the money they save (just as they do with the money they save on packaging, distribution, and materials when they release digitally). What's more what will be a short term boom, will eventually become a hardwired part of the industry, and relied upon as part of the business model. This means that the goverment will be able to leverage game development throught he tax breaks.

While your from the UK, I'd imagine you've probably heard the whole thing about California's Governor bringing what amounts to a censorship bill (in an offhanded way) to the Supreme Court. This entire mess would be worse if the game industry was receiving more direct goverment incentives. After all, no matter how iron clad something seems when it first goes through, the goverment can always threaten those benefits. "Play ball with what we want, or we'll go after that tax break your getting". If the industry has structured itself around that Tax break and needs it as part of it's operating structure... well now you have problems.

The less govermental fingers in game development the better I'd think.

Very well put. I agree with almost all of your points. However, with regards to education: There are a lot of geniuses who simply cannot get a decent education because of a lack of funds. It's true there are scholarships, but they tend to be pretty specific in their requirements. The end result is that it is people who are born rich who wind up running things, rather than people who possess the best talents. The system winds up being an aristocracy rather than a meritocracy. Hence, making a good education widely available is extremely important.

Anyways, excellent post overall.

"Look and Learn from across the Irish sea."

Your words, Osborne. Maybe we should actually -learn- from Irelands economic collapse, rather than do exactly the same thing that caused it. Government austerity measures don't work. SOMEONE has to be spending money when the times are bad. People don't have it to spare and businesses would rather spend it on 6 figure salaries for their highups. Unless the money flows, how do you expect the economy to kickstart itself? Magic? Wishes? Fairy dust?

Truly is amazing how this tory mess of a government, not even elected by a popular majority, is screwing things up so royally so quickly.

Therumancer:

MelasZepheos:
snip

snip.

I know there must be big changes, I'm not stupid. My problem with the Conservatives is that all of their changes effect the poor, the elderly, the vulnerable, more than they effect those who could afford it. Instead of raising taxes on the rich and the upper class, so far everything they have done has inconvenienced the working middle and lower class. Not the ones who don't work, but the ones who do.

Also with women, my main issue with the Conservatives is their massive elitism and traditional views, when traditionalism really equates to stagnation. They may not admit to it, but a lot of the new changes to the workforce (their latest is a bill which allows anyone who has worked for less than two years to be fired without reason) the main objective is to get women back in the home. They seem to literally see women as nothing more than homemakers, and it sickens me to my core.

I disagree about your 'if you're not a genius by 11 your path is assured.' I am extremely smart, tested well into genius levels on a wide variety of intelligence tests. Until the age of 16 I was in with the rest of the class. I knew I was smarter than most of them, but I couldn't do anything about it, and this was at a pretty decent middle class school. It's only now, at university, that I'm being allowed to perform to my full ability. If I had never gone to university, like my father and grandfather, also both incredibly smart men, I would have had no chance, and would have been stuck. While I agree in the broad strokes that some people really don't have what it takes to perform well at university, some people wouldn't find out until they got there. My father is incredibly intelligent, and didn't find out until about 30 when his employers sent him to do Open University etc, my grandfather didn't have any idea about how clever he potentially was until he was well into his fifties, and finally went to university.

Also, the new changes to the system do not mean the most intelligent children, the most deserving of the education, will go, it means only the richest will be able to afford to go. It will return the country to the 80s, the last time the Conservatives were in power, and that is stangnation, not progress. Finally, saying that the system needs to be changed is not even debated amongst education professionals, but Michael Gove is Education Secretary, and he knows nothing about education. He supports phonics, which are proven to give early short term gains in education, but cause later problems with understanding and comprehension. There's a reason that was abandoned in the 80s too. Also, the Conservatives kind of have their policies in their name. They wouldn't change the education system progressively forward, no matter how many facts were presented to them.

Really when it comes to politics of my country I don't care about videogames because there is so much else going wrong. Having cut nearly everything they can, losing people jobs like mad and being told repeatedly by analysts that their actions are going to result in another recession, the government were still surprised when they were told there was a 0.5% contraction of the economy last quarter. The specific quarter that they took over.

The Conservatives are using outdated and outmoded policies to try and fix our country, the same policies they used in the 80s which resulted in Labour having come in and fix things. Far from fixing our problems the Conservatives are going to fuck our country so badly in the next few years I am in all seriousness considering leaving once I finish university. And I thought I'd never leave.

Thank you for responding without flaming, and I hope you understand my perspective, even if we have to agree to disagree on some of these issues.

Serenegoose:
"Look and Learn from across the Irish sea."

Your words, Osborne. Maybe we should actually -learn- from Irelands economic collapse, rather than do exactly the same thing that caused it. Government austerity measures don't work. SOMEONE has to be spending money when the times are bad. People don't have it to spare and businesses would rather spend it on 6 figure salaries for their highups. Unless the money flows, how do you expect the economy to kickstart itself? Magic? Wishes? Fairy dust?

Truly is amazing how this tory mess of a government, not even elected by a popular majority, is screwing things up so royally so quickly.

Well, I can't speak for the UK, but in the US the differance between popular vote and the electoral vote exists due to wanting to make sure no state is entirely alienated from the voting process based on population. Basically everyone in a state votes, and then the result of that vote determines how the state's allowed votes are cast in the actual election. This is a simplistic version of course. I'm guessing the UK has similar issues based on regions. The popular vote isn't going to mean much unless that is done away with, and for all talk of "let's scrap the goverment" (in any nation) the chaos in doing so would be ridiculous especially seeing as you'd never obtain anything like an overwhelming majority consensus as to what to replace it with, and would be facing massive civil wars.

I'll also be honest in saying that going after the rich isn't typically the problem as they form the basis of the community being the ones who run the businesses and everything. In general if you DO pretty much nuke the rich and wind up redistributing the wealth, whomever you put in charge of that redistribution simply becomes the new rich elitist group and very little changes. I'm not a big fan of punishing the rich, even if I'm pretty poor myself, I'd much rather private citizens have that money and those six figure salaries, than some kind of empowered political committee. I also honestly do not trust tax collectors like the IRS here in the US and the like to collect and redistribute that money any more fairly. A lot of it would simply wind up going into the pockets of politicians rather than back into the system.

One of the reasons why I'm a militant is because I think that while everyone hates war, violence solves problems. Understand that there are only so many resources in the world right now, and the problems afflicting the Western world come about at a time when your seeing a massive boom in the Eastern world. China isn't exactly engaging in fair business practices, and engaged in massive patent and copyright thefts. This costs a lot of big businesses a lot of money, and the guys on the top of the food chain certainly don't tighten their belts, they take it out on the workers by cutting hours, laying people off, reducing wages, and going to other nations where labour is cheaper. A lot of people don't like to contemplate what it means, but when you read articles about how the Chinese are driving more, and in the midst of an automobile boom, the resources for that like metal and fuel have to come from somewhere not to mention the money to support it, and that's coming out of our "share" of the resources. You can't produce resources with magic, the only way to get that supply back is pretty much to get it away from them, which of course causes shortages making them rather unhappy with you. Or simply put, it's an irreconcilable problem since it's 'our' economy or theirs, and that's why wars are fought. "we", both the US and Europe on the other hand prefer to look for magical solutions, rather than simply acknowleging that the East-West war people have been foretelling for decades is pretty much here and it's going to be terrible on the level that will make World War I and II look like elementary school plays about rainbows and sunshine.

Simply put China represents roughly 1/3rd of the human population on earth by some estimates. A population that I might add has been living in relative squalor until now (and still does). The great western civilizations came about because of the global resources largely going to the west instead of there. It's not nice, because a lot of people have been screaming about how we need to help those people for a long time, but on a pragmatic level raising their standard of living means a massive cut in ours accross the board. These things don't happen overnight, and these massive economic problems are the signs of that happening. Of course like most things I don't expect anyone to do anything, and instead we'll all be sitting here whining about how we should have done something when it's too late and clarity sets in with the mainstream.

Basically, the problem is a cessation of growth, and an increasing lack of incoming resources compared to the demand. The rich and powerful have been there in every society in some form. Truthfully redistributing their wealth isn't going to do much in the long term when what you need is more coming in from the outside. No matter how you spread things around in the long term your always going to come up short, and that's going to get worse in proportion to the development of Asian economies.

None of that influances social issues like needing parents being present to parent children and the like, that's a whole differant issue of course though.

That's my thought at any rate.

... oh and on topic, as I said in another message, I think tax breaks for video game companies is a bad idea. In the long run that just means the goverment will have something to leverage them with.

VaderMan92:
Capitalism FTW (with some government interference to preserve monopoly of course) competition is king.

FTFY. :p

OT: I seriously want to shout.

Why oh why is everyone looking for a handout?

Had Labour managed to pass it's tax break (which they would have got rid of as soon as they returned to government, most likely. My idle speculation is that they would have implemented 90% of the Tories' economic policies had they stayed in government), it would have done nothing. Their proposed "test of Britishness" meant that I wouldn't be surprised if Zombie Cow and (possibly) Lionhead were the only studios to get any money. The former got a handout from Channel 4 instead and the latter is owned by Microsoft.

VaderMan92:
Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

I don't think Socialist means what you think it means.

Therumancer:

One of the reasons why I'm a militant is because I think that while everyone hates war, violence solves problems. Understand that there are only so many resources in the world right now, and the problems afflicting the Western world come about at a time when your seeing a massive boom in the Eastern world. China isn't exactly engaging in fair business practices, and engaged in massive patent and copyright thefts. This costs a lot of big businesses a lot of money, and the guys on the top of the food chain certainly don't tighten their belts, they take it out on the workers by cutting hours, laying people off, reducing wages, and going to other nations where labour is cheaper. A lot of people don't like to contemplate what it means, but when you read articles about how the Chinese are driving more, and in the midst of an automobile boom, the resources for that like metal and fuel have to come from somewhere not to mention the money to support it, and that's coming out of our "share" of the resources. You can't produce resources with magic, the only way to get that supply back is pretty much to get it away from them, which of course causes shortages making them rather unhappy with you. Or simply put, it's an irreconcilable problem since it's 'our' economy or theirs, and that's why wars are fought. "we", both the US and Europe on the other hand prefer to look for magical solutions, rather than simply acknowleging that the East-West war people have been foretelling for decades is pretty much here and it's going to be terrible on the level that will make World War I and II look like elementary school plays about rainbows and sunshine.

Simply put China represents roughly 1/3rd of the human population on earth by some estimates. A population that I might add has been living in relative squalor until now (and still does). The great western civilizations came about because of the global resources largely going to the west instead of there. It's not nice, because a lot of people have been screaming about how we need to help those people for a long time, but on a pragmatic level raising their standard of living means a massive cut in ours accross the board. These things don't happen overnight, and these massive economic problems are the signs of that happening. Of course like most things I don't expect anyone to do anything, and instead we'll all be sitting here whining about how we should have done something when it's too late and clarity sets in with the mainstream.

Excuse me, but you you think that the solution to resources going to the East can be found through... war? Sure, Iraq went rather well, didn't it?

The part you're missing is the fact that China isn't diverting resources away from the West - the West is literally handing it to them. Look at your Chamber of Commerce - they're working for the corporates and shipping all the jobs overseas. The upper class, with all their lobbying in policy-making, is to blame entirely. They're not going to consider whether creating jobs in the US is going to keep unemployment low and the economy running - they're going to see where to gain the most profit by seeking lower wages with minimal or virtually no benefits. Over 30% of Apple products are manufactured in China - you think that came out of a competition between East and West? No, the competition actually lies among China, India and the South Americas. Want to fix your economy? Get rid of the corporate-fellating politicians and get your policies right. Remember, even in these tough economic times, the rich keeps getting fatter. The housing bubble bursting hurt you? Well, the high-risk bankers responsible walked away with seven figures.

China stealing your technology? Well, don't give them the chance. Look at the Russians - when they found out the Chinese were copying Sukhoi Su-27 variants, they simply kept the Chinese out of their 5th Generation development process, making India their new partner. What you shouldn't do is help China build the world's fastest supercomputer by exporting the Nvidia Tesla.

And you may want to cut down on military spending. You thought the $700 billion bailout was bad? The US on an average spends over $650 billion annually on military expeditions.

Wicky_42:

VaderMan92:
Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

Lol, I'd say the Tories are making a good stab at getting rid of any semblance of socialism over here - privatise the NHS, raise VAT, lower income tax on the top earners.... it's all a fucking joke.

I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

VaderMan92:
Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

You think the UK is a socialist country? If the UK is socialist then America is communist.

Seriously, lay off the Fox News.

Raiyan 1.0:

I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

It's not us. It's the public school elite who have been gifted power. From April I can't even get a bus after nine o'clock, my tax has rocketed, I have to pay huge import duty on anything I want to buy from overseas, I'm blocked from watching certain videos, I have to prove my age to buy Christmas Crackers, Alcohol, our libraries are being closed, our hospitals have huge waits for basic treatment...and it's purely because a group of greedy bankers didn't do their jobs properly. And have now got paid for doing so. And bonuses.

Honestly, the Bookstart program, which gave free books to underpriviledged kids to help the start reading, was nearly cancelled while a few percent of the bonuses paid to banks would have kept it going.

And where's all the money we're donating going? Out of the country.

It's frankly terrifying what the ConDems are doing. We thought that it could only get better after Labour. It's got worse.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Raiyan 1.0:

I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

It's not us. It's the public school elite who have been gifted power. From April I can't even get a bus after nine o'clock, my tax has rocketed, I have to pay huge import duty on anything I want to buy from overseas, I'm blocked from watching certain videos, I have to prove my age to buy Christmas Crackers, Alcohol, our libraries are being closed, our hospitals have huge waits for basic treatment...and it's purely because a group of greedy bankers didn't do their jobs properly. And have now got paid for doing so. And bonuses.

Honestly, the Bookstart program, which gave free books to underpriviledged kids to help the start reading, was nearly cancelled while a few percent of the bonuses paid to banks would have kept it going.

And where's all the money we're donating going? Out of the country.

It's frankly terrifying what the ConDems are doing. We thought that it could only get better after Labour. It's got worse.

I dunno much about the UK political scene right now, but I've a fair understanding of your economic situation. And I've to tell you this: UK needs to do what France did - nationalize all the banks that screwed up. No more high-risk banking taking down the entire economy.

And seriously, I never knew the UK CoDems are as bad as the American right wing. Privatising the NHS? Raising taxes on education?

I feel for you guys :/

Raiyan 1.0:
I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

The Conservatives here in the UK aren't true conservatives, they're corporate apologists. They come from incredibly wealthy families, and have a lot of friends and contacts among the higher ups of big businesses in the UK. So they spend as much time and effort as possible giving lucrative contracts to private corporate interests, often to the extent of shutting down a public service, and letting the market replace it with a private one.

Tories think America is some kind of free-Capitalism utopia. Hence why they try and ape the worst of its policies.

Raiyan 1.0:

Wicky_42:

VaderMan92:
Tax breaks in a socialist country? *manic laughter*

Lol, I'd say the Tories are making a good stab at getting rid of any semblance of socialism over here - privatise the NHS, raise VAT, lower income tax on the top earners.... it's all a fucking joke.

I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

I know, right? What the fuck? Guess it's what happens when a bunch of elitist twats get elected on the back of a complacent bunch of warmongers running the economy sideways. Not that they were able to secure a solid majority or anything - they don't have a democratic mandate to do jack shit, really. All in all, our current gov is miserable and pathetic. I want to go move :/ To Canada?

Lets a tax break for the games industry. I wonder how the the poor sod of soldier in Afghanistan is going to feel. He getting effectively a pay cut 4% a poorer pension and less allowances. Do you really think he is going to be happy about the money his lost going to people who make games were you can play the people that are trying to kill you. I'm sure that wont have any political effects whats so ever. All for the a sector that is worth to Uk economy worth about the same as Jimmy Choos, the women fashion shoe retailer

Raiyan 1.0:

Therumancer:

One of the reasons why I'm a militant is because I think that while everyone hates war, violence solves problems. Understand that there are only so many resources in the world right now, and the problems afflicting the Western world come about at a time when your seeing a massive boom in the Eastern world. China isn't exactly engaging in fair business practices, and engaged in massive patent and copyright thefts. This costs a lot of big businesses a lot of money, and the guys on the top of the food chain certainly don't tighten their belts, they take it out on the workers by cutting hours, laying people off, reducing wages, and going to other nations where labour is cheaper. A lot of people don't like to contemplate what it means, but when you read articles about how the Chinese are driving more, and in the midst of an automobile boom, the resources for that like metal and fuel have to come from somewhere not to mention the money to support it, and that's coming out of our "share" of the resources. You can't produce resources with magic, the only way to get that supply back is pretty much to get it away from them, which of course causes shortages making them rather unhappy with you. Or simply put, it's an irreconcilable problem since it's 'our' economy or theirs, and that's why wars are fought. "we", both the US and Europe on the other hand prefer to look for magical solutions, rather than simply acknowleging that the East-West war people have been foretelling for decades is pretty much here and it's going to be terrible on the level that will make World War I and II look like elementary school plays about rainbows and sunshine.

Simply put China represents roughly 1/3rd of the human population on earth by some estimates. A population that I might add has been living in relative squalor until now (and still does). The great western civilizations came about because of the global resources largely going to the west instead of there. It's not nice, because a lot of people have been screaming about how we need to help those people for a long time, but on a pragmatic level raising their standard of living means a massive cut in ours accross the board. These things don't happen overnight, and these massive economic problems are the signs of that happening. Of course like most things I don't expect anyone to do anything, and instead we'll all be sitting here whining about how we should have done something when it's too late and clarity sets in with the mainstream.

Excuse me, but you you think that the solution to resources going to the East can be found through... war? Sure, Iraq went rather well, didn't it?

The part you're missing is the fact that China isn't diverting resources away from the West - the West is literally handing it to them. Look at your Chamber of Commerce - they're working for the corporates and shipping all the jobs overseas. The upper class, with all their lobbying in policy-making, is to blame entirely. They're not going to consider whether creating jobs in the US is going to keep unemployment low and the economy running - they're going to see where to gain the most profit by seeking lower wages with minimal or virtually no benefits. Over 30% of Apple products are manufactured in China - you think that came out of a competition between East and West? No, the competition actually lies among China, India and the South Americas. Want to fix your economy? Get rid of the corporate-fellating politicians and get your policies right. Remember, even in these tough economic times, the rich keeps getting fatter. The housing bubble bursting hurt you? Well, the high-risk bankers responsible walked away with seven figures.

China stealing your technology? Well, don't give them the chance. Look at the Russians - when they found out the Chinese were copying Sukhoi Su-27 variants, they simply kept the Chinese out of their 5th Generation development process, making India their new partner. What you shouldn't do is help China build the world's fastest supercomputer by exporting the Nvidia Tesla.

And you may want to cut down on military spending. You thought the $700 billion bailout was bad? The US on an average spends over $650 billion annually on military expeditions.
?

The only real problem with the US military as I was saying is that we don't use it effectively. Iraq and the entire "War On Terror" is a problem because we put ridiculous conditions for victory on ourselves, trying to "win the peace" instead of just going in, decimating the region, and going home. The reason of course being moral since we feel we can't kill civilians or break cultures. Short of someone trying to invade us outright, our military really isn't going to act effectively. After all our tools are designed to wipe out towns and cities with minimal effort, when we go in man to man, we lost a lot of that advantage. Weapons like Daisy Cutters and the like were not developed with modern morality in mind, yet they represent a backbone of our military force and the jutification for replacing manpower with technolgy which requires us to call out our reserves to deal with the current conflict. "Well, we don't need tons of infantry when we can carpet bomb" doesn't hold water when your not willing to actually carpet bomb.

As far as China goes, the big issue with them is not us giving them technology so much as they reverse engineering or counterfeiting products. One big issue was the drug Viagra, which they pretty much analyzed, and duplicated, and then started releasing for a fraction of the costs the guys who developed it want. In cases like drug companies, there is frequently a goverment stake in them and the goverment gets a share of their profits in exchange for money and resources it donates towards the development. Not to mention the taxes it loses out on from lost sales.

Other issues are things like knocking off clothing, China is infamous for doing things like duplicating the registered styles of a garmet producer like Calvin Klein and then selling the clothing for a fraction of the price, with a false label attached to it saying that's what it is. This costs the artists/fashion designers a lot of money, as well as again lost sales.

There are some technologies that could be more carefully regulated and controlled, there is some truth to that, but the problem is that anything availible on the consumer market can be reverse engineered and duplicated. What prevents this is patent laws and copyrights, which robber economies by definition do not follow by saying they are not binding under their internal laws. With the amounts of money to be made, and the markets for knockoffs throughout the second and third world, the only real viable option in such cases is to force them to stop. Of course given that this would require decimating a good portion of the world population, as well as putting our own lives at stake, nobody much cares to do so. Even when China is building up a substantial military, including a navy to move it's troops and a very scary submarine screening element (look up the Yuan class submarine), along with a lot of people down there talking about how they want to conquer other nations for living space when they are ready. It doesn't last in the media very long when it comes out, but every once in a while you get videos showing a peek behind the "Bamboo Curtain" and let's just say I think we're in denial, waiting for them to throw the first punch which is pretty stupid.

The problem with changing international business policies and outsourcing, which is actually a whole differant issue, is that it's difficult to put the genie back into the bottle so to speak. With the people already out there we have few options on the table that aren't extremely military since we can't really force businesses to do something against their own interests, and closing US markets in an attempt to force them back is the stupid move a lot of US competitors are praying for since that would mean those businesses would just transfer their business to the next most profitable market. Then we'll see a transfer of financial power from Wall Street to say the European Common Market. This is an entirely differant arguement though which I won't go into, and we're getting further and further off topic.

Wicky_42:

Raiyan 1.0:

Wicky_42:

Lol, I'd say the Tories are making a good stab at getting rid of any semblance of socialism over here - privatise the NHS, raise VAT, lower income tax on the top earners.... it's all a fucking joke.

I don't understand... why are you Brits adopting American-style policies?

I know, right? What the fuck? Guess it's what happens when a bunch of elitist twats get elected on the back of a complacent bunch of warmongers running the economy sideways. Not that they were able to secure a solid majority or anything - they don't have a democratic mandate to do jack shit, really. All in all, our current gov is miserable and pathetic. I want to go move :/ To Canada?

Of course, they'll be replaced by a bunch of incompetent warmongers and the cycle starts again. Such is British politics.

Ultimately, Douglas Adams had it right: "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard", said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" (So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish, chapter 36).

Therumancer:

The only real problem with the US military as I was saying is that we don't use it effectively. Iraq and the entire "War On Terror" is a problem because we put ridiculous conditions for victory on ourselves, trying to "win the peace" instead of just going in, decimating the region, and going home. The reason of course being moral since we feel we can't kill civilians or break cultures. Short of someone trying to invade us outright, our military really isn't going to act effectively. After all our tools are designed to wipe out towns and cities with minimal effort, when we go in man to man, we lost a lot of that advantage. Weapons like Daisy Cutters and the like were not developed with modern morality in mind, yet they represent a backbone of our military force and the jutification for replacing manpower with technolgy which requires us to call out our reserves to deal with the current conflict. "Well, we don't need tons of infantry when we can carpet bomb" doesn't hold water when your not willing to actually carpet bomb.

As far as China goes, the big issue with them is not us giving them technology so much as they reverse engineering or counterfeiting products. One big issue was the drug Viagra, which they pretty much analyzed, and duplicated, and then started releasing for a fraction of the costs the guys who developed it want. In cases like drug companies, there is frequently a goverment stake in them and the goverment gets a share of their profits in exchange for money and resources it donates towards the development. Not to mention the taxes it loses out on from lost sales.

Other issues are things like knocking off clothing, China is infamous for doing things like duplicating the registered styles of a garmet producer like Calvin Klein and then selling the clothing for a fraction of the price, with a false label attached to it saying that's what it is. This costs the artists/fashion designers a lot of money, as well as again lost sales.

There are some technologies that could be more carefully regulated and controlled, there is some truth to that, but the problem is that anything availible on the consumer market can be reverse engineered and duplicated. What prevents this is patent laws and copyrights, which robber economies by definition do not follow by saying they are not binding under their internal laws. With the amounts of money to be made, and the markets for knockoffs throughout the second and third world, the only real viable option in such cases is to force them to stop. Of course given that this would require decimating a good portion of the world population, as well as putting our own lives at stake, nobody much cares to do so. Even when China is building up a substantial military, including a navy to move it's troops and a very scary submarine screening element (look up the Yuan class submarine), along with a lot of people down there talking about how they want to conquer other nations for living space when they are ready. It doesn't last in the media very long when it comes out, but every once in a while you get videos showing a peek behind the "Bamboo Curtain" and let's just say I think we're in denial, waiting for them to throw the first punch which is pretty stupid.

The problem with changing international business policies and outsourcing, which is actually a whole differant issue, is that it's difficult to put the genie back into the bottle so to speak. With the people already out there we have few options on the table that aren't extremely military since we can't really force businesses to do something against their own interests, and closing US markets in an attempt to force them back is the stupid move a lot of US competitors are praying for since that would mean those businesses would just transfer their business to the next most profitable market. Then we'll see a transfer of financial power from Wall Street to say the European Common Market. This is an entirely differant arguement though which I won't go into, and we're getting further and further off topic.

No, the problem with the Iraq War was not that you guys put ridiculous conditions for victory. Saddam's army was down the moment his air support was gone. Victory was achieved years ago. The problem was the goal itself - occupation and setting up a puppet regime. And how do you exactly plan to set up an occupation by carpet bombing? And Al Qaeda? Only about 5% of the forces the US was fighting was Al Qaeda - the rest were all nationalist movements. Hell, the Taliban wanted to hand over Bin Laden before the Afghan invasion, but Clinton's surplus was apparently just sitting around wanting to be wasted on pointless wars.

Also, your readiness to go to war and 'decimate an entire region' as a solution is rather... disturbing.

As for your argument on knock-offs, I assure you: Chinese fake brands (especially clothes) sold in the third world countries are no sales lost for the original manufacturers. Those people wouldn't be able to afford the expensive products in the first place.

As for Chinese products sold in the US, remember this: the Chinese economy hinges on the US consumers (why do you think China rushed in to bail you guys out after the housing bubble burst?). The government can easily create a closed economy where knock-offs and reverse engineered products are banned in the country. And if the idea of a little socialism scares you, remember: nearly all off the economic superpowers e.g. China, India, Japan started off with a closed economy, and opened up to the free market only when the country was ready. And capitalism hasn't exactly served you guys very well lately.

Also, China is all about sabre-rattling. They'll never go to a war in the near future, considering how much their investments are tied up around the world. I doubt they would even make a move against Taiwan - that region is much more profitable to them right now than as a war-torn state. You'll only have have to worry if you plan to invade China. Then you're screwed. Especially with those piece-of-shit F-35s (only 2 A2A missiles? Really?).

Of course, with Faux News and Sarah Palin blaring incessantly, what I'm asking for is next to impossible. But it's a better alternative to a war economy. That only worked once, in WW2, but never again.

Raiyan 1.0:
[q
No, the problem with the Iraq War was not that you guys put ridiculous conditions for victory. Saddam's army was down the moment his air support was gone. Victory was achieved years ago. The problem was the goal itself - occupation and setting up a puppet regime. And how do you exactly plan to set up an occupation by carpet bombing? And Al Qaeda? Only about 5% of the forces the US was fighting was Al Qaeda - the rest were all nationalist movements. Hell, the Taliban wanted to hand over Bin Laden before the Afghan invasion, but Clinton's surplus was apparently just sitting around wanting to be wasted on pointless wars.

Also, your readiness to go to war and 'decimate an entire region' as a solution is rather... disturbing.

As for your argument on knock-offs, I assure you: Chinese fake brands (especially clothes) sold in the third world countries are no sales lost for the original manufacturers. Those people wouldn't be able to afford the expensive products in the first place.

As for Chinese products sold in the US, remember this: the Chinese economy hinges on the US consumers (why do you think China rushed in to bail you guys out after the housing bubble burst?). The government can easily create a closed economy where knock-offs and reverse engineered products are banned in the country. And if the idea of a little socialism scares you, remember: nearly all off the economic superpowers e.g. China, India, Japan started off with a closed economy, and opened up to the free market only when the country was ready. And capitalism hasn't exactly served you guys very well lately.

Also, China is all about sabre-rattling. They'll never go to a war in the near future, considering how much their investments are tied up around the world. I doubt they would even make a move against Taiwan - that region is much more profitable to them right now than as a war-torn state. You'll only have have to worry if you plan to invade China. Then you're screwed. Especially with those piece-of-shit F-35s (only 2 A2A missiles? Really?).

Of course, with Faux News and Sarah Palin blaring incessantly, what I'm asking for is next to impossible. But it's a better alternative to a war economy. That only worked once, in WW2, but never again.

Merchants have ALWAYS felt a war was impossible due to the way money was flowing. This was a big part of what brought the Romans down, they ignored the realities of the world they lived in based on their presumtions and how decadent they had become. The term "Barbarians At The Gates" refers to the enemies of Rome literally forming up their troops outside the city and nobody wanting to acknowlege that it was an attack despite all common sense.

Right now what I propose is disturbing because of a combination of impractical morality that has been beaten into people's heads since the 1960s, and the simple fact that nobody likes wars, and nations with little control over the outcome especially hate wars because they have to gamble on picking the winning side, and are generally going to come out worse for the situation no matter who wins. I get that, but that's all there really is to it. Part of my point is that people need to get over being disturbed, and start facing reality.

The issue with The Middle East is exactly what you present, it's not a war but a police action. We tried to go in as an occupying force and install a progressive goverment. Unfortunatly complicated internal problems can't be resolved by external forces in this fashion. Our morality and the unwillingness to put much blood on our hands lead to us defining a victory condition that is simply put impossible to acheive. In reality we should have gone into the region, wiped the place out, killing millions, and then went home. You do the job properly and there is no culture left to present a threat in the region. It's how successful wars have been fought by the Romans, against the Nazis (look up Bomber Harris some time), and how Christians managed to get rid of all the other religions in the Western world more or less and take over. It's not pleasant, which is why I believe war should be the last thing on the table, but when you get there it's all about killing people and breaking things. By the time you send the military diplomacy and "winning the peace" has already failed. Simply put the only way to defeat other cultures is to do to them what it would take to defeat the US, we wouldn't be swayed by this kind of occupation, we'd keep fighting on endlessly the same way. To beat the US you'd have to pretty much the majority of the American population, and hunt down those holding onto the ideaology rather ruthlessly. It's foolish to assume other cultures are any easier to permanantly defeat than ours is. Honestly I think a lot of the half measures that we're involved in now are kind of racist, and that's part of the problem. There is a lack of respect for the people of The Middle East, in thinking that they are going to break before "shock and awe" like a bunch of savages facing "boomsticks", and that the people are so backwards as to be too stupid to resist manipulation, that's hardly the case. While many people have implied I'm a bigot, it's quite the opposite, what I say is based on a degree of respect, and the belief that in the end final victory is going to take the same exact things.

When it comes to China, their knockoffs are what is responsible for building up their nation. It's not a matter of "oh well, these people would not be able to pay your prices" before China got big on the global market they did indeed pay those prices. While the second and third world represents a big market here it's also a general issue with other markets because of imports. Simply put if a Chinese knockoff is going for half the price, people are going to buy it, especially if they think it's the genuine article. Companies should not have to lower their prices to compete with someone else stealing their patents and copyrights. What's more all of those sales represent money lost to the goverments in terms of taxes and such.

I mean I get it, you don't want to see a war where billions of people die, I figure most people don't. Heck, I don't paticularly want to see it happen either. The bottom line is that it's coming, as the current issues are not going to be resolved any other way.

See, these kinds of problems bring about the slow death of nations and empires. If the US gets drained away and falls, people around the world who see us as rich, arrogant, and poiwerful, really don't care and are going to take an "about time" attitude. Of course if they were on the receiving end in our position they would feel a lot differantly. By the same token a lot of nations really like China BECAUSE of those knock offs and cheap goods. Being able to get all the same stuff major nations like the US have without having to pay substantial prices is a big deal. That makes people less than receptive to the idea of China as a threat since they are happy with things as they are right now. People don't want to believe the guys raising their standard of living are taking the money from that trade to build up a huge military to conquer their trade partners, but that's pretty much what we see going on right now. It's just that due to the price in human lives that a war would ring means that nobody wants to acknowlege it.

What we see going on now is something people saw coming for decades, we just don't want to accept it. Like "Zero Population Growth" the inevitable east-west war is going to get here, and it's going to be ridiculously bad, and we are going to be saying "we should have done something to stop that before it got so big" but well, it will be too late. Assuming of course that we win in the end.

Therumancer:

snip

Look, I can understand which angle you're tackling this from, and I'm not going to childishly pass a judgement on you as a war monger. You simply see war as inevitable. But there is this one flaw in your argument.

You see, it's not the merchant's view that makes me believe war isn't coming. It's WMDs that I've my faith in.

Let me clear up on this. I fuckin' love nukes. They have kept us safe through the Cold War. And I believe that they'll keep us safe in the future as well. Nukes just raise the stakes too high, which is why an analogy with a thousand-year-old war doesn't apply. Remember, the Soviet Union was crazy - by the time they were falling apart, they were spending 20% of their GDP on military spendings - and yet the Cold War managed to never turn hot. Comparatively, China is positively mild. They've recently reduced their military expenditure (around 2.0% of total GDP, compared to USA's 4.3%) and, if you've seen the recent WikiLeaks, Chinese policy-makers are trying to distance themselves from N Korea.

The fact is, China has her priorities straight. And the US needs to get her's as well. And while you see another bloody war in the horizon, I, at worst, see a second Cold War.

That Fable III picture could be relevent on two grounds? One it's a UK based studio, two the idea of making tough decisions for the good of the country? Ah, who am I kidding, the Conservatives are just going to cut everything brutally in the hope that the economy might turn around enough for them to make meagre reinvestments a year before elections.

The results of that by-election were interesting though. A Labour MP gets (rightly) removed for having a racially motivated election campaign, and yet Labour secure a larger majority the second time round whilst the Conservatists lose support.

Maybe that's from the "We won't raise VAT" pledge lie Cameron made on the debates.

Raiyan 1.0:

Therumancer:

snip

Look, I can understand which angle you're tackling this from, and I'm not going to childishly pass a judgement on you as a war monger. You simply see war as inevitable. But there is this one flaw in your argument.

You see, it's not the merchant's view that makes me believe war isn't coming. It's WMDs that I've my faith in.

Let me clear up on this. I fuckin' love nukes. They have kept us safe through the Cold War. And I believe that they'll keep us safe in the future as well. Nukes just raise the stakes too high, which is why an analogy with a thousand-year-old war doesn't apply. Remember, the Soviet Union was crazy - by the time they were falling apart, they were spending 20% of their GDP on military spendings - and yet the Cold War managed to never turn hot. Comparatively, China is positively mild. They've recently reduced their military expenditure (around 2.0% of total GDP, compared to USA's 4.3%) and, if you've seen the recent WikiLeaks, Chinese policy-makers are trying to distance themselves from N Korea.

The fact is, China has her priorities straight. And the US needs to get her's as well. And while you see another bloody war in the horizon, I, at worst, see a second Cold War.

Not childish at all actually, I'm a militant or what some people would call a "War Monger". At the moment I see war as a "good" thing overall, though I don't believe it's the solution to all problems. I simply feel right now US morality has gotten to the point where the action of last resort (War) is entirely off the table, as we simply keep trying the same non-functional actions and strategies again and again. Leading with diplomacy is fine, but when that and measured responses are all you do, it's a problem. Right now we're the national equivilent of the joke about the British Bobby telling a gun wielding criminal "Stop, or I'll say Stop again!".

The thing that your missing about WMD is that they have been around for decades. It's foolish to think that what was viewed as the ultimate weapon during World War II was going to remain there indefinatly. We're actually pretty lucky that it lasted as long as it did. Right now the big powers like the US and China have substantial missle defenses. We upset the Russians with some of the tech we've demonstrated to intercept ICBMs since it violated the treaties with the USSR to keep ICBMs active. China on the other hand has developed lasers that can blind US Satellites which is going to make it very difficult for ultra-long range missle targeting:

http://defensetech.org/2006/09/25/chinese-laser-vs-u-s-sats/

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11/is-this-chinas-anti-satellite-laser-weapon-site/

As I keep telling people do a search for "China" "Satellite" and "Laser" and you'll find TONS of stuff on this going back years. Just because the generally left wing "peace at any price" media likes to present things as being reasonably peachy, doesn't mean it's true.

If you dig you'll also find articles like this one:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/91150/chinese_submarine_beats_navys_best.html?cat=15

China has developed Submarines capable of competing with our naval technology, which means that with these things as escorts it's viable for China to project it's power to other nations. A lot of people seem to think China is no threat because there is no way they could get their massive armies into other nations, this is rapidly not becoming the case. What's more with these subs it also means that it's going to be far more difficult should a war start for the US to get missle subs/boats and carriers off the Chinese shoreline should a war actually start. This news isn't something that just started either, while we've been picking our noses so to speak China has been building up these forces, along with their attitudes about conducting wars of conquest for living space. Should they get into a position where they feel they can adequetly protect the Chinese Mainland, and successfully move out their troops, they are doubtlessly going to do it. We're very much in "Barbarians At The Gates" type denial over this right now. Obviously when questioned they are going to say "of course we're not planning to invade, that's just sabre rattling" they aren't stupid, no nation is officially going to say something like that until they are ready to declare war.

Even if your right, and we do see another Cold War, that's pretty much handing China victory under the current circumstances. That doesn't play to the interests of the US, because right now our economy is in rough shape, while China's is booming. A Cold War is ultimatly going to maintain the current status quo which means the US and other nations feeling the crunch are going to be bled out while China continues to become stronger. In the end a lot of Western powers are liable to collapse into mere shadows of themselves, sort of like what happened to the USSR, but in reverse.

Now, I do get it that a lot of nations that would be caught in the middle of this kind of thing and wouldn't benefit no matter what side they chose or who won don't care for the idea, and would like to see the current status quo maintained as long as possible. What's more other nations always want to see the dominant world power "get theirs", however I of course don't want to see that happen to the USA, and what's more, even looking at things objectively I think even our critics would probably be happier with us staying in power and eventually uniting the world (I hope, since it's nessicary for our species to survive, but that's another dicussion) than seeing the Chinese do it.

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