He's absolutely right, and something I've been thinking for a while. Any look at the gaming forums on steam will show countless threads of needless bitching, and bitching that is directed at many things that actually make the games fun. The more innovation added, the more people seem to hate it. Sure, some things lack balance, but that can be corrected. Instead, gamers are practically crucifying the developers for adding anything fresh into the franchise, either that or they're bitching that everything that makes the games fun to begin with are just a cut and paste. Hell, I remember one particular SPUF user who was immediately bitching about one aspect to TF2, in every thread he could. Months later, he's in the same threads getting insanely negative to anyone else who is speaking against it, defending it mindlessly. You can't please anybody in this generation of gamers.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's one thing to present a cogent argument against a game and explain why you don't like it, it's another thing to simply bash it while still playing it.
For example: I don't like to play recent entries in the Call of Duty franchise because the multiplayer map design is too circular and corridor-based--it becomes impossible to gain the upper hand, as when you force your enemies into a corner, they simply run out of the trap or respawn behind you. This, among other reasons, is why I've stopped playing BlOps.
Contrast that to arguments like, for instance, 'ugh black ops is so fukking gay its stupid treyarc ar all dumb'. This may accurately convey the views of the speaker, but it's offensive and not constructive.
At the end of the day, constructive criticism is great. The industry couldn't hope to get any better without it. However, there's huge importance to the word 'constructive'. Ranting at a developer won't ever do anything good.
When asked if he has a message for anyone in the gaming industry, random guy on the internet said "Up yours Josh Olin! How about instead generalizing, you extrapolate those with constructive criticism from bitching idiots and consider using their ideas."
I'm not gonna list everything that went wrong with Black Ops, and I do agree with OP. Games are here to provide pleasure, be fun, but to me Black Ops wasn't. As someone before me posted we should concentrate on good things, even if it means playing some other games. But I'll be damned if I give up my right to complain about something I don't like.
I'll stop being such a contrarian when Treyarch fixes the damn PC version.
Personally I disagree with Olin. If a game is poor one should say so. Would he rather we all heaped on copious amounts of praise to a game that's poor? Well, actually he probably would, it would make being a community manager far easier.
Also "Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by 'pundits' and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do." -Olin. Innovation and creativity, really? When you made the seventh Call of Duty game, that's not innovation, that's churning out another sequel incredibly similar to its predecessors. In order for gaming to move on, it has to change for the better, by having no element of criticism there would be less drive to change.
That said, we shouldn't immediately dissolve into angry shouting and fanboyism. But calmly and rationally saying a game's faults is the right thing to do. We should praise good, unique (actually innovative) games.
I never imagined to hear THAT from the mouth of a person who contributes/maintains the CoD Franchise.
Wow, I feel so burned.
Allright everyone, stop complaining about the flaws in games. Your hurting the fine folks at Treyarch's feelings.
Valid points. People should only complain if they have a decent argument. Mind you, there's not much of that going about in the gaming community.
LoL, on the surface, this seems like a response to the negative comments about CoD:BlOps. There are three ways you can take a negative comment.
First, you need to discover whether or not the commentator is saying something worthwhile. Comments like, "Dude, this game sucks...", aren't worthwhile comments to concern yourself with. Paying attention to these things will only make you pull your hair right out of your head. And it doesn't matter if 15 million people bought your game, that still doesn't mean it's for everyone.
Second, if the commentator is "bitching" about an issue of the game not running properly, these should try to be focused on. For instance, CoD:BlOps on the PC has issues on some PC's that should be addressed, such as random frame rate drops (90 FPS one second, then 30 FPS a second later). I know not every computer runs with the same issues, but if an issue is showing up as rampantly as this one seems to, it should try to be fixed or the developer should at least try to assuage the player community.
Third, if they are saying something they feel is a problem with core of the game, and there are a bunch of people who agree with them, you should think about this on the next iteration of the game. Nothing can change this now that the current game is released. So, by and large, these are comments that should largely be ignored by the people working on that iteration of the game.
All that being said, you should not release a product and bitch about the amount of folks who don't like it, especially if it sold well. I agree, the majority of comments are bullshit.... so why are you worrying so much about them. But, you have no right to blame the negative commentators for the industry not progressing. Some people complain just to complain, hate just for the sake of hate. The industry doesn't progress because big companies only bet on the money makers. CoD in general is a fantastic franchise, and Treyarch has a very rich development history. As near as I can tell, the only real numerous complaints have been with their largest selling property, CoD:BlOps. The problem with the game for some people is that it does not offer any step forward from the previous CoD games. Who's fault is it that the industry doesn't progress? Sounds to me like you catered to the least common denominator, but turned the largest profit from it. That is the price to be paid. I personally don't care for the multiplayer in the game, but that is my thing. I don't like the kill streak style play of it, it's not the game or Treyarch, I don't play any multiplayer like that. The explosions are annoying because my screen shakes and I can't hit anything, but the enemies can shoot me dead just fine, it leads to unnecessary redoes and a lot of annoyance.
I agree with this guy. I wish people would concentrate more on the great things.
The reason no one concentrates on the good is because every official review of a game concentrates on the good mostly, unless of course there is no good to it. I recall this being the case with the game, Legendary.
If a person has paid good money for a game, they're as entitled to bitch about it as anyone buying an expensive meal at a fine dining establishment is about their meal. I don't think the complaining is really the issue, I think it would be more prudent to see WHY people are complaining. Sure there will be many of them that are just angst-driven jerks, but many complaints are valid.
As for this "if you hate the game why are you playing it?" nonsense, I seem to remember there being a lot of consumer rights slashed away with regards to refunding money for an opened game. If I spend my money on something I cannot return only after finding out it's a steaming pile, the least I could do is try to eke out some kind of amusement from it.
I could rant for pages on this, I really could, but if someone want's to generalize people and lump anyone that has had a game breaking bug, or has been the victim of griefers using exploits the programmers didn't catch, etc, then there's just not getting through. That's the pot calling the kettle black, and that's just the kind of hypocrisy the industry doesn't need.
My sympathy perhaps in the next life, Mr. Olin.
That was a member of the latest COD team speaking out about the importance of creativity in the video game industry.
Up next in hypocrisy corner...
But seriously guys, he's right, we need to learn to take being nickel and dimed with on-disc DLC, stop complaining about the likes of removal of mod support on PCs and just accept that complaining is wrong and companies are always in the right because they need more money.
. Why are so many gamers quick to bitch about a game that exists solely to provide pleasure? It seems that the more popular a game is, the more people "hate" it, while they still play it every day.
Question of the Day, February 1, 2011
Do you play COD: Black Ops?
No, and it doesn't interest me. 55% (776)
It could just be that you're following the heels of a company that had its heart ripped out or that
"As polished and pretty and fun as Black Ops often is, it feels more like a yearly update than a sequel [which] isn't distinct from its predecessors in any important way"
or that those that do play it describe Nuketown as rather underwhelming.
Or, you know, there might be feedback to give to Blops?
Here's an idea: On your official forums, ban people who spout complete and utter bullshit. There. I've solved your problem.
The issue is that game devs, and especially MMO devs, don't have the balls to boot people who bring nothing to the table. There are valid ways to express criticism through the developers' communications channels, and there are valid ways for the developers to react.
If someone says "BLOPS IS SUCH A CRAP GAME Y DO U PEPLE PLAYING IT?," ban them. I don't want to put up with them any more than you do.
Just don't bitch when the people left over start complaining that you aren't releasing fixes for all the valid issues, such as the inability to play for more than an hour at a time, rampant cheating and exploiting, the inability to launch the game *at all,* and more.
How about they just stop making games? Let those who have more interest and innovative take your place.
You're not supposed to please fans by making what they want, but by making what you want. Cant take the criticism and trolling? GTFO! Seriously. Im having enough with artist blaming me for low sales and bad reputation, because I dont get their art. Fuck off.
See? Posts like this. This contributes absolutely NOTHING to the discussion. Why is this post allowed to continue existing?
We put up with assholes in the real world because it is morally and ethically wrong to make them disappear. We need to dispense with that when it comes to on-line communication. People aren't going to die because you deleted their posts and banned them.
Anton P. Nym:
"Rather than growing with it, the trend seems to be devolving. More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about."
Not trying to be a troll here, but that may just be because about half of CoD's demogrpahic isn't gamers, and don't care about the industry.
I wouldn't say so... not when the most audible and obnoxious "fans" are the ones claiming to be the "real" gamers and demanding that the industry should care only about them. As annoying as newbies and know-nothings can be, the worst offenders for what Olin is talking about are those calling themselves "hardcore" the loudest.
Am I the only one that is a little angry that treyarc basically asked for feedback so they could improve the game, and now complain because they don't like it. It's the internet, of course your going to get whiny bitches, no reason to become one. Treyarc, Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
Thank you for your illustration of the problem.
No, thank you for your arrogant, snobbish, sarcasm. No need to get all upset just cuz the majority of the internet is whiny and retarded, I periodically check the very forums he's talking about, and for every idiot, there is a rational, intelligent person with well stated points.
I hate call of duty (after 4) not because of the quality of the game because they have good gameplay and a good signal player campaign but the fact that so many people like it for it's bad multiplayer mode.
There are people who complain about games for the sake of complaining. There are others who have legitimate concerns and who want, and should, have them heard.
I don't judge a game completely until I get a chance to play it. I played New Vegas and it bugged out on me. I stopped playing it until Dead Money came along and I hoped that it would come with the patch that would fix the bugs. It didn't and I stopped playing it. I want to be able to play the game my way and not in some convoluted manner that will keeps me safe from all the bugs.
By 'pundits' and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian!?
He sounds like he cannot fathom there is anything wrong with his game, and that everyone who disagrees is just doing it for giggles. If the game industry is that far gone, then there is no saving it. If this is how they are thinking it's no wonder developers never listen to feedback and improve on their games. CoughBungiecough
I think people are well within their rights to complain about black ops for PC and PS3. It was buggy a and has a host of problems which would of been found and corrected if they did their jobs properly and tested the games. They clearly did not test the PC version at all or they might of noticed that it wasn't using any kind of processor with multiple cores on release.
So manybe if they did their fucking jobs better they wouldn't get so many complaints.
You make generic games for the masses, expect to be flamed. If 10% of gamers who play your game like to flame you, the more total gamers playing, the more total flamers you get.
For example I doubt Frictional Games (ie: Penumbra, Amnesia) get flamed and trolled much.
Not to mention, having bugs only compounds the problem. I think gamers have a right to think they're entitled to a WORKING GAME.
yeah, im sure that the blame lies 100% on the side of your friggin paying clients.....
people dont complain just to piss off community managers.
they complain because theres a problem. unless the person complaining hasnt given the game enough time for them form a valid opinion, its not their fault a game is riddled with bugs etc.
additionally, complaining should aid 'evolution', rather than "devolution". if developers try to work for their audience, critisism is the best way to find out what needs changing, to help evolve the series.
He's absolutely right.
There's only 4 words you need to know to stop being a leeching ponce on the game industry: "Constructive Criticism and Feedback." This is what you deliver to the publisher and/or developer because they will use the best of it in improving their product and future products which equates to more fun times for everyone!
If you really want to do something helpful for the people working at a Development house and all you DO know is how to complain, then focus that rage at the Publisher that owns them! Demand better treatment of employees and less bullshit work environments! If they enjoy their jobs and are able to express their passion for creating video games, we'll be rewarded with better results.
Tell those dickfarts like EA, Activision, and THQ that their arbitrary profit-maximizing release dates can fuck right off because we'll buy it anyway if it's good and worth it! I'd rather see these supposed "triple A" titles be released with all the bugs and glitches worked out (or as many as possible) instead of saying fuck it and releasing it before it's done! This kind of shit would NEVER fly back in the 8-bit/16-bit days, it seems like the more we have to pay for a game, the less finished it is anymore.
OR they could stop making shit games and everyone would be happy!
Why yes, of course. Why didn't they see that before?
Here's a way to cut down on "Contrarian" Gamer Comments: DON'T. MAKE. CRAPPY. GAMES.
It's not 'creativity' it's Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y that's the issue here. People will still play the games, but if there are broken parts, they WILL notice!
Why yes, of course. Make games of good quality. I'll send them a letter about this right away and it should turn the industry around immediately. Any more "constructive" criticism?
Lots of gamers are contrarians, most often when it comes to sequels.
For example if a sequel is different, many complain that it doesn't feel like the first game and is a departure from the series they love. If a sequel is similar, many complain it's a copy of the first and they shouldn't have bothered making the second because it doesn't push the envelope.
To be honest, I'd say the same thing.
This kind of shit would NEVER fly back in the 8-bit/16-bit days,
Do you really want me to rattle out all the bad ports we got on the ST, Amiga, C64, C16, Electron, Speccy?...because I could fill an entire forum.
They are reaping what they sow. This is what happens when you move all your games to consoles which are overly accessible to spoiled and lobotomized 14 and 16 year old kids who do nothing but sit in the living room, and play video games. What did you think was going to happen?!
I've never seen negativity like this from PC gamers back in the day.
I get it that trolls aren't fun, but seriously, just because there's immature people spewing nonsense about anything and whining for the sake of whining, this doesn't mean that everything that comes out of a studio and is branded as AAA is above any and every criticism.
Last time I bought a game on release was when Temple of Elemental Evil came out; yes, it was a shitty game and it sucked and had I bought another I'd have been less burned, but it taught me a valuable lesson: nobody cares about releasing a game when it's complete.
And mind you, I perfectly understand all the economic reasons for doing so, but I also am not the sort of person that absolutely needs to buy a game on day 0, nor I see a reason. I'll buy your games if I like them and only when they'll be ready, not when you decide to push out a clearly Beta version that I am supposed to pay 60$ for because you want my money now.
I don't know how the industry got to this point, but I refuse to believe it's the only way to conduct business.
So true. Also why I refuse to call myself a "gamer."
We wonder why the big companies keep catering to the wretched fucking "casual" gamers.
It's because you can give them shovel ware shit and they will play it and smile. And if they don't like it? They calmly get rid of it and buy something else.
How'd you like your job if you had to deal with a bunch of arrogant, self righteous little pricks constantly in your job who wouldn't be happy if you offered them free blow jobs, because what the fuck they demand the blow job come with cake too!
To be frank I often wonder who is worse. The contrarians or the fanboys? You can shoot down a contrarian fairly easy, because most of the time punching holes in their arguments is easy if indeed they happen to be unfounded and if they still don't admit to there being a problem with their logic after you present valid points as to why their argument was flawed, then you can safely dismiss them as trolls and just not bother anymore.
But trying to punch holes in a fanboy's arguments is an exercise in futility. You punch a hole in one of *their* arguments and they'll immediately make up a million and one excuses for it, saying that it wasn't really what they meant, saying that there are so many other stuff they forgot to tell you about the awesomness that is the object of their adoration.
With contrarians you can try and if it turns out that they still can't adress some of the logic holes, then you can still leave them alone secure in the knowledge that they aren't quite on top of what they're arguing against. But with fanboys you can't have an argument that is anywhere near proper - if you disagree with them, you're automatically in the wrong and always will be because who are you to tell experts like *them* what's good and what's not if they enjoy it?
So while both camps piss me off greatly often enough, I'd still say it's fanboys who are far more damaging for not being critical enough of what it is that they adore.
Also...for a community manager to say something like this, I'm quite frankly certain that they should look to find another job. Because if you can't learn to ignore the irrational arguments against your product while focusing on the constructive ones, then there's something you're not doing right in this department. But then again, maybe he was just having a bad day at the office so who knows.
"Wah wah wah, making games is teh hardz, stop being so meeeeeeean!"
Fuck that. Anyone who states that anything is somehow exempt from criticism for any reason is only a sore loser. If you put something out for public consumption and it's a bucket of shit, people are going to tell you it's a bucket of shit, and you just have to deal with that. It doesn't *matter* if the shit bucket is "just for entertainment" or whatever.
Shit is shit.
This kind of shit would NEVER fly back in the 8-bit/16-bit days,
Do you really want me to rattle out all the bad ports we got on the ST, Amiga, C64, C16, Electron, Speccy?...because I could fill an entire forum.
Consoles only I'm talking about... and not the Atari 2600, I could fill an entire forum with that alone. Yeah I know there's some questionable stuff on the Amiga and C64, I have both and some really hard-to-look-at games for them. At the earliest, 8-Bit NES and up, once there were at least some form of standards to get games published on a system.
Ah. It's Treyarch in all of it's infamous glory, meaning that now we must talk about Black Ops being bad, even though it has very little to do with the actual thread.
Anyway, I can see where they're coming from, but people "bitching" is to be expected. No game is perfect, especially Black Ops, but should they? In my opinion there should always be room for improvement, in case there is a sequel.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Treyarch and every developer/producer/whatthefuckever really needs to develop a thicker skin for these sorts of situations.
I agree with his point about gamers being self-entitled, as I myself have stated that numerous times on these forums. But it seems like he's just using that as a reason to ignore legitimate complaints as well. I haven't played Black Ops, but from what I've heard there's been plenty of technical problems with it. Also, policies such as overpriced map packs are not going to get people on their side. There is a definite difference between legitimate problems with a game, and just plain bitching.