GeoHot's Lawyer Responds to Sony's Claims

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GeoHot's Lawyer Responds to Sony's Claims

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The opposition motion filed yesterday by Sony mentioned tampering with PC hard drives but GeoHot's lawyer says that's "absurd."

Yesterday, we reported that Sony had filed an opposition to George Hotz' motion to dismiss the suit against him for posting the PS3 root key back in January. The court document filed by Sony claimed that the evidence he provided based on a court order was unusable by the third party inspectors, and that Hotz couldn't comply because he was in South America. We later learned, and updated the original story to explain, that Hotz was indeed in South America on a trip that planned long before he was sued by a giant corporation. Hotz' lawyer, Stewart Kellar, told Ars Technica that Sony's claims were deliberately worded so as to mislead the judge, the public, and the media.

"The notion that George has fled the country is absurd. George is in South America to see a friend, on a trip he planned before this lawsuit ever began," Kellar said. "George has had to make himself available 24/7 for this litigation, which has been quite demanding on him."

Were the hard drives that Hotz provided rendered inoperable before he handed them over? Kellar believes that supposition is way off base. "SCEA's lawyers are using intentionally ambiguous language so that the public, and the Court, might assume the worst," Kellar said.

"The 'components' SCEA is talking about are hard drives' controller cards. The neutral [party] subsequently had to explain to SCEA the form and function of hard drive controller cards," Kellar explained. "It is a stock part that can be purchased at any electronics hardware store. Those controller cards have since been provided to the neutral so the point is moot."

Kellar wanted to make it crystal clear that Hotz was not using any funds he raised for his legal defense on the vacation he is currently enjoying. "It should be noted that the donation money George has received is being used exclusively for his legal defense," the lawyer said. "If there are any funds left after the lawsuit, George is planning to donate the money to the EFF."

The EFF being the Electronic Frontier Foundation which has supported Hotz and other hackers in their fight for rights to reverse engineer products of electronics companies.

So, if what Kellar and Hotz said in response is all true, it appears that Sony has very good lawyers who are extremely adept at manipulating language to paint the defendant in the worst possible light. They saw Hotz' departure to South America as an opportunity to defame him, and went to town. I've many lawyer friends, and they tell that this is about 90 percent of what an attorney's job entails, so I can't say I'm surprised.

But I am now going to take any news I hear about this case with a large silo full of salt.

Source: Ars Technica

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I really don't know whose side to be on any more... On one hand, I want to support free hacking rights, but on the other, clever legal wording confuses me.

Sigh. Can I just be uninterested again?

It seems both sides are playing a little dirty. Is that also the best/only photo you all can find of Geohot?

If there is one thing lawyers are good at, it would definitely be defaming someone.

Don't you just love the justice system. They might as well make their motto, "Hit em' while their not looking."

Yep, as I said yesterday, the dude is going about his business as well as he should. But ten bucks says most people are still going to go against the guy 'cause he's a douche...which is fine. Just remember he's not found guilty yet so we shouldn't treat him that way.

If Sony lawyers can paint Hotz in the most negative light possible, Geo's Lawyers can paint him in the best. I love it when a lawyer goes "He's using his fancy lawyer language to make me look like a bad guy!" Then get offended when someone says "Um..... 1) it's their job... 2) you do the SAME THING"

I'm keeping up my neutral side to things, and will instead focus on attacking things that make no sense, rather than individual sides

"She said what? Oh no she didn't!"
"Oh yes I did girlfriend, you don't even want to mess with this hotness!"
"Pfft whatever sister!"

As interesting as this whole situation has been, I am starting to run out of popcorn, I'll have to go buy some more

Veloxe:
"She said what? Oh no she didn't!"
"Oh yes I did girlfriend, you don't even want to mess with this hotness!"
"Pfft whatever sister!"

As interesting as this whole situation has been, I am starting to run out of popcorn, I'll have to go buy some more

*digs into his pocket and gives you $20*

I gotta be honest, I have to help a fellow spectator. Too many people taking extreme sides and not looking for a common solution like I introduced in one thread

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

Sony's lawyers are definitely earning that big fat retainer now! It's a shame that Geohotz is limited to a single lawyer and doesn't have an entire law firm working for him like Sony, that's the only way this competition would be anywhere near fair.

Enkidu88:
Sony's lawyers are definitely earning that big fat retainer now! It's a shame that Geohotz is limited to a single lawyer and doesn't have an entire law firm working for him like Sony, that's the only way this competition would be anywhere near fair.

I thought he'd gotten a team with donation money. Hurm, there's no mentions of plurals though.
Maybe it's just the wording, or he just hired a really good/really exploitative lawyer.

this be why i hate the legal system ... every one is twisting words to make fake claims.

I don't get the problem. He modded/tampered with the console, that breaks the user agreement, he has opened the console to piracy. In what way is he not guilty?

I don't exactly envy Hotz' lawyer right now. He clearly has his work cut out for him.

"Fled the country..." Sheesh.

Kinda funny how people readily jump at calling Geohotz a douche based on that one picture, but gives Sony a free pass even though they've been basically lying through their teeth with the whole 'fleeing country' and 'evidence tampering' shenanigans...

From what I understand, he has potentially cost them a fair bit of money and openly admitted to being the one to do it.

Don't really get why he's being defended by anyone.

They have NO case, the charges are totally bullshit. Sony is just using their effectively unlimited money and our court system's inherent inequality to make the life of an individual who pissed them off difficult.

There really is only one solution to this travesty. Congress needs to pass a law that before a corporation can bring a claim against an individual the corporation has to scientifically prove economic damages from the individual's actions. Otherwise the system will continue to be abused.

Raiyan 1.0:
Kinda funny how people readily jump at calling Geohotz a douche based on that one picture, but gives Sony a free pass even though they've been basically lying through their teeth with the whole 'fleeing country' and 'evidence tampering' shenanigans...

Actually, I think he's a douche for posting the rootkey online (though I admit the picture doesn't help any) and I think Sony's a bunch of dicks because of this move, plus the fact that they took out OtherOS to begin with.

I also think the whole EULA and rent instead of own thing is stupid. I agree that they should be able to protect their IPs, but not at everyone else's expense.

Wasn't this case getting appealed on the silly jurisdiction sony was going for?

How long does a appeal take? Should they even be continuing the case if the appeal becomes successful?

i hate to say i told ya so, but.... nah, fuck that, i love saying it. told ya so!! but i guess sony won't actually be feeling silly at all, considering it was just a ploy to defame him, and it was probably wildly successful in the places that matter.

Ah Sony, you were so hoping this wouldn't backfire at you, wern't you? But now it has, and we all know that you're just making up stories like a disgruntled schoolchild who's throwing a tantrum. If there was any weight to Sony's lawsuit they wouldn't need to do this, they just know they're in the shit and need to cheat in order to stand a chance of winning the case.

Well I'm still unsure on what GeoHot's REAL position is in all of thise, but I can say one thing. I *know* that Sony did try and word all their accusations to mislead the courts and the public.

Why? Because I read them myself, and I believed the worst. So yes, they were tampering facts and being liars. Therefore, whether I agree with GeoHots means or not, I hope Sony loses.
Bad.

So I flipped a coin to figure out which side's lawyer where lying... it landed on its side. I honestly wasn't that surprised.

One question though the way i'm reading this SCEA's people working with the third party aren't... suited towards this kind of work. One of the largest brands of the most advanced consumer electronics was confused by what the third party said about a commonplace component?

rembrandtqeinstein:
There really is only one solution to this travesty. Congress needs to pass a law that before a corporation can bring a claim against an individual the corporation has to scientifically prove economic damages from the individual's actions. Otherwise the system will continue to be abused.

I'll admit, I haven't been paying too close attention to this, but there is one tiny thing. Some people have been using the key (provided by GeoHot) to play pirated games and utilize Sony's PSN servers in a way they agreed not to with Sony in the EULA. Thus, Sony has evidence of damages. The real question is "Is GeoHot liable for these damages?"

As far as I've been able to tell from the little I've read of this, he's not liable. As long as all he did was release the way to unlock the PS3 he should be in the legal clear. The release of information is not considered a crime, unless it is nationally sensitive data.

As an analogy, if someone released the KFC recipe for Fried Chicken and KFC lost major money as people started making it on their own instead of eating there, the individual who released the recipe would not be liable (in my understanding). If s/he was an employee (had a contract with KFC), s/he would likely be fired and charged according to the terms of the contract. If s/he utilized illegal methods to get a hold of it (breaking/entering, hacking, etc.) then s/he is liable for the crime committed, but not for releasing the information itself.

Again, this is only a slightly informed opinion, and I could definitely be entirely wrong, but I think GeoHot is mostly in the clear as long he stops being/doesn't start being stupid.

Captcha: Panes Inany

But why did he feel it was necessary to remove the controller cards at all..?

And, that aside, whether the part was easily replaced or no, isn't tampering with evidence still tampering with evidence, even if the bit you tampered with was still just a stock part?

I admit, I don't like this jerk .. but still something seems screwy about messing with the parts at all, at the very least as if he were being spiteful to a neutral third party by trying to inconvenience them, or indeed, to hang-up the legal process somehow.

It makes no sense but, still.. why?

ZombieGenesis:
Well I'm still unsure on what GeoHot's REAL position is in all of thise, but I can say one thing. I *know* that Sony did try and word all their accusations to mislead the courts and the public.

Why? Because I read them myself, and I believed the worst. So yes, they were tampering facts and being liars. Therefore, whether I agree with GeoHots means or not, I hope Sony loses.
Bad.

Ofcourse they meant to, they're lawyers. They are going to make every single blink, sniffle, sneeze, cough, fart, twitch, etc look as horribly infamous and cynical as they can without the judge reprimanding them. It's their job, it's what a lawyer is paid for. "You hurt my client, you are evil"

Hotz' lawyer is going to make every accusation look personal, calculated, evil, unjust, etc... They're going to be saying "You see how they beat on him? How they make these evil claims? We told them he was going on vacation, they're just trying to make you hate him, they're evil"

It's how lawyers work, it's how they'll always work. That's why when I saw this I kinda chuckled and placed it neatly in the "Yeah? So?" Folder of my brain

This is what we as the most foolish race on the planet do when we jump to conclusions. We let sony win with the plan to deceive us.

As Sheldon would say 'I told you so" has lsot all meaning therefore...
I informed you thusly.

Celtic_Kerr:

ZombieGenesis:
Well I'm still unsure on what GeoHot's REAL position is in all of thise, but I can say one thing. I *know* that Sony did try and word all their accusations to mislead the courts and the public.

Why? Because I read them myself, and I believed the worst. So yes, they were tampering facts and being liars. Therefore, whether I agree with GeoHots means or not, I hope Sony loses.
Bad.

Ofcourse they meant to, they're lawyers. They are going to make every single blink, sniffle, sneeze, cough, fart, twitch, etc look as horribly infamous and cynical as they can without the judge reprimanding them. It's their job, it's what a lawyer is paid for. "You hurt my client, you are evil"

Hotz' lawyer is going to make every accusation look personal, calculated, evil, unjust, etc... They're going to be saying "You see how they beat on him? How they make these evil claims? We told them he was going on vacation, they're just trying to make you hate him, they're evil"

It's how lawyers work, it's how they'll always work. That's why when I saw this I kinda chuckled and placed it neatly in the "Yeah? So?" Folder of my brain

I get the feeling this will come across as one of those 'my mum's dead' kind of comebacks but... I'm a lawyer.

Fensfield:
But why did he feel it was necessary to remove the controller cards at all..?

And, that aside, whether the part was easily replaced or no, isn't tampering with evidence still tampering with evidence, even if the bit you tampered with was still just a stock part?

I admit, I don't like this jerk .. but still something seems screwy about messing with the parts at all, at the very least as if he were being spiteful to a neutral third party by trying to inconvenience them, or indeed, to hang-up the legal process somehow.

It makes no sense but, still.. why?

Very simple good chap, it stalled SONY. He had time to fuck off to south America, have some fun, stall SONY for a stock part, and now that SONY decided to try and mislead, he actually does look a bit better.

This is a possibility, not necessarily the truth

While I hate Hotz and everything that he stands for, this does throw some light onto the shady actions of the Sony lawyers. Although, to be perfectly honest, if I was about to undergo trial and my lawyer's were battling opposing lawyers night and day to sort everything out, the last thing I would do would be to leave the country. That, on his part, is absolutely stupid; this is kind of a big deal, and he should have DEFINITELY postponed his trip for gods sake...

That being said, I really do hope he gets brought to justice. He went too far over the line and ruined a lot of online games for Sony users, and honestly if people like him keep enabling more and more pirates they will eventually destroy the industry that we so love and the videogames that we continue to enjoy. To say that stealing money away from the developers that make the games we love is anything but despicable is just retarded... plain and simple

Maybe I should be a lawyer, so I can get paid to make shit up...

Celtic_Kerr:
Very simple good chap, it stalled SONY. He had time to fuck off to south America, have some fun, stall SONY for a stock part, and now that SONY decided to try and mislead, he actually does look a bit better.

This is a possibility, not necessarily the truth

He figured they'd do standard lawyer-like things, got a rough idea of how to turn it to his advantage and also relax somewhere quiet and hey, what do you know...

Celtic_Kerr:

Fensfield:
But why did he feel it was necessary to remove the controller cards at all..?

And, that aside, whether the part was easily replaced or no, isn't tampering with evidence still tampering with evidence, even if the bit you tampered with was still just a stock part?

I admit, I don't like this jerk .. but still something seems screwy about messing with the parts at all, at the very least as if he were being spiteful to a neutral third party by trying to inconvenience them, or indeed, to hang-up the legal process somehow.

It makes no sense but, still.. why?

Very simple good chap, it stalled SONY. He had time to fuck off to south America, have some fun, stall SONY for a stock part, and now that SONY decided to try and mislead, he actually does look a bit better.

This is a possibility, not necessarily the truth

That and Sony can afford the crap themselves why should he save them any money when they want to bend him over and take him all the way to the bank.

ZombieGenesis:

Celtic_Kerr:

ZombieGenesis:
Well I'm still unsure on what GeoHot's REAL position is in all of thise, but I can say one thing. I *know* that Sony did try and word all their accusations to mislead the courts and the public.

Why? Because I read them myself, and I believed the worst. So yes, they were tampering facts and being liars. Therefore, whether I agree with GeoHots means or not, I hope Sony loses.
Bad.

Ofcourse they meant to, they're lawyers. They are going to make every single blink, sniffle, sneeze, cough, fart, twitch, etc look as horribly infamous and cynical as they can without the judge reprimanding them. It's their job, it's what a lawyer is paid for. "You hurt my client, you are evil"

Hotz' lawyer is going to make every accusation look personal, calculated, evil, unjust, etc... They're going to be saying "You see how they beat on him? How they make these evil claims? We told them he was going on vacation, they're just trying to make you hate him, they're evil"

It's how lawyers work, it's how they'll always work. That's why when I saw this I kinda chuckled and placed it neatly in the "Yeah? So?" Folder of my brain

I get the feeling this will come across as one of those 'my mum's dead' kind of comebacks but... I'm a lawyer.

And so it comes as a shock to you that SONY played with their words a little bit? They tried to paint him in bad lighting. Geo's lawyers would try to do the same if they could. You say you hope SONY loses because they twisted facts, but I've got a ton of friends in law courses and even my old Quebec law teacher told us: Twisting your words is the easiest to win a case. If the people believe what you say, you're good. If your opponent bites and catches themselves on your twisted, barbed words, you reel them in.

So yeah, they twisted facts. Not shocking.

Celtic_Kerr:

ZombieGenesis:

Celtic_Kerr:

Ofcourse they meant to, they're lawyers. They are going to make every single blink, sniffle, sneeze, cough, fart, twitch, etc look as horribly infamous and cynical as they can without the judge reprimanding them. It's their job, it's what a lawyer is paid for. "You hurt my client, you are evil"

Hotz' lawyer is going to make every accusation look personal, calculated, evil, unjust, etc... They're going to be saying "You see how they beat on him? How they make these evil claims? We told them he was going on vacation, they're just trying to make you hate him, they're evil"

It's how lawyers work, it's how they'll always work. That's why when I saw this I kinda chuckled and placed it neatly in the "Yeah? So?" Folder of my brain

I get the feeling this will come across as one of those 'my mum's dead' kind of comebacks but... I'm a lawyer.

And so it comes as a shock to you that SONY played with their words a little bit? They tried to paint him in bad lighting. Geo's lawyers would try to do the same if they could. You say you hope SONY loses because they twisted facts, but I've got a ton of friends in law courses and even my old Quebec law teacher told us: Twisting your words is the easiest to win a case. If the people believe what you say, you're good. If your opponent bites and catches themselves on your twisted, barbed words, you reel them in.

So yeah, they twisted facts. Not shocking.

I never once said I was surprised by it, I merely said they were quite despicable for it and I hope they lose the case. Just because I operate in the legal profession doesn't mean I HAVE to be accepting of liars now, does it?
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this damages their case. Some judges here in the UK will expel a claim entirely if the facts have been tampered with to such a high degree, and at the very least a jury would look most unfavourably on it.

So really no, I'm not the least bit surprised since this is a COMPANY law case (again, a stab in my own foot as I am COMPANY myself) but that's the sad world we live in.

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