EFF Campaings to Legalize Console Modding

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Eve Charm:
Even if the laws made it legal, it'd still be breaking TOS's from consoles, phones, whatever you bought that were already in effect.

Also you'll see game developers coding as much as possible to make sure their games Only run on official firmware.

TOS agreements and EULA have a pretty flimsy basis under the law and as it stands now can only stand up in certain US states and a couple countries in the EU. They have been dubbed shrink wrap contracts on the basis that they are usually included in such things that require you to open a package to read the agreement voiding your ability to return it.
Lets say hypothetically a company lets call them "sony" releases a product in the states. they later releases an update to their software that prevents someone lets call him "George" from using software that the product was originally designed to run, but George has agreed not to alter the product. George decides "to hell with it" and modifies it anyway. So Sony takes him to court.
The case would be decided based on the states individual preference between the DMCA which upholds Sony's right, and fair trade contract law which bars companies from making a sale with what is essentially a blank contract.

Oh and also "George" previously modded his iPhone and successfully won the right for everyone in america to do the same regardless of TOS agreements.

Ordinaryundone:
On one hand, hell yeah, fight the power, down with the corporations telling us what we can do, etc.

On the other hand, if this passes get ready for a flood of homemade console knock offs and such extreme cheating in online games that it will be impossible to regulate.

Really? People have always modified consoles. What makes you think that THIS TIME it will spell doom?

I remember when people started modding the PS1 to play burned discs, the PS1 failed miserably. Right?

TimeLord:
I can see no way in which this can backfire!

Yep, all those lawsuits already from companies taking people like that guy to cracked the PS3 (can't remember his name) that got so much coverage. I can't see him taking the companies to court and claiming damages or whatnot.

Yep, nothing will go wrong...

Considering he chickened out and settled, I can't see him doing it either. Mostly because I can't see Sony not having covered themselves from action in that settlement.

Amnestic:

If we're gonna play the currency game, let's be fair about it, aye?

Now now, we all know being fair has nothing to do with it....;)

Eve Charm:
Even if the laws made it legal, it'd still be breaking TOS's from consoles, phones, whatever you bought that were already in effect.

Which is still a lot better than it being flat-out a crime.

Crono1973:

I remember when people started modding the PS1 to play burned discs, the PS1 failed miserably. Right?

Well yeah, that's why Sony pulled out of the console market before the much-anticipated Playstation 2 was released.

XD

I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist. You can mod your console all you want, you just can't go online with it. Why? Because while the console itself is a physical thing you own, the whole internet/online portion is a service given by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. You aren't automatically entitled to the service just because.

Zachary Amaranth:

Crono1973:

I remember when people started modding the PS1 to play burned discs, the PS1 failed miserably. Right?

Well yeah, that's why Sony pulled out of the console market before the much-anticipated Playstation 2 was released.

XD

That's what I thought. The Playstation 2 would have been an amazing console, it would have sold more than it's competition by a long shot if only they had released it.

Damn console modders!!!

Kopikatsu:
I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist. You can mod your console all you want, you just can't go online with it. Why? Because while the console itself is a physical thing you own, the whole internet/online portion is a service given by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. You aren't automatically entitled to the service just because.

Not entirly true, read this:
http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Xbox+360+%7C+Modding+FAQ

There's no mention of not ebing allowed onloine, it simply states that internal modding is not allowed. I'm not sure about the PS3, but that's the case with the Xbox360.

Also note that it states you cannot pay anyone else to mod any part of the console either.

Hallowed Lady:

Kopikatsu:
I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist. You can mod your console all you want, you just can't go online with it. Why? Because while the console itself is a physical thing you own, the whole internet/online portion is a service given by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. You aren't automatically entitled to the service just because.

Not entirly true, read this:
http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Xbox+360+%7C+Modding+FAQ

There's no mention of not ebing allowed onloine, it simply states that internal modding is not allowed. I'm not sure about the PS3, but that's the case with the Xbox360.

Also note that it states you cannot pay anyone else to mod any part of the console either.

So where is this law that says it's illegal to modify your XBOX 360?

Just because Microsoft doesn't want you to modify your 360 and puts that in the EULA doesn't make it illegal. In order for something to be illegal there needs to be a law against it.

On the one hand my Xbox might be used for more then a OP paperweight if i knew i could run linux on it and give the damn thing some more memory..... come on (64MB for a graphics card?) On the other, i'll still probably say why am i wasting my time buying a console when i have to do all this crap to it just to get owned by massively cheating online gamers with homemade mods when i can play on my OP computer that i made myself no copyrights, no warranties, all my own and nicely overclocked with liquid cooling hooked up to my cozy HDTV. This is an interesting step for console gaming but ill read it from my computer monitor until the details are worked out.

Honestly, I'm okay with this. I don't do any of those mods myself, but I remember something from that case about the guy who modded his PS3 and Sony caught him. Man, I can't remember his name. And I'm too lazy to look it up.

Anyway, I remember someone said that once you buy the console, it's yours and you're pretty much free to do whatever the hell you want with it. You can open it and use its parts for a sculpture, you can use to hold your door open, you can play football with it, and yeah, you can mod it. I mean, you paid for it. What do they care what you do with it?

Yes, downloading games for free is not cool and I'm not supporting it. But hey, we already have this problem as it is. It's illegal and I don't see why it would be considered legal to download pirated games. We're talking about mods like player-made Dragon Age mods that fix glitches and stuff.

Well, anyway, I support this. No to piracy, yes to modding. Yeah, people will still try and abuse of this, but...if laws are well-written, there is no reason piracy should stop being a crime.

Beautiful End:
Honestly, I'm okay with this. I don't do any of those mods myself, but I remember something from that case about the guy who modded his PS3 and Sony caught him. Man, I can't remember his name. And I'm too lazy to look it up.

Anyway, I remember someone said that once you buy the console, it's yours and you're pretty much free to do whatever the hell you want with it. You can open it and use its parts for a sculpture, you can use to hold your door open, you can play football with it, and yeah, you can mod it. I mean, you paid for it. What do they care what you do with it?

Yes, downloading games for free is not cool and I'm not supporting it. But hey, we already have this problem as it is. It's illegal and I don't see why it would be considered legal to download pirated games. We're talking about mods like player-made Dragon Age mods that fix glitches and stuff.

Well, anyway, I support this. No to piracy, yes to modding. Yeah, people will still try and abuse of this, but...if laws are well-written, there is no reason piracy should stop being a crime.

It's not currently illegal to modify your console. It's also not currently legal. It's the gray area that says that you can do something because no law has been made against it. In other words, the default is something is ok until it's made illegal.

Crono1973:

Beautiful End:
Honestly, I'm okay with this. I don't do any of those mods myself, but I remember something from that case about the guy who modded his PS3 and Sony caught him. Man, I can't remember his name. And I'm too lazy to look it up.

Anyway, I remember someone said that once you buy the console, it's yours and you're pretty much free to do whatever the hell you want with it. You can open it and use its parts for a sculpture, you can use to hold your door open, you can play football with it, and yeah, you can mod it. I mean, you paid for it. What do they care what you do with it?

Yes, downloading games for free is not cool and I'm not supporting it. But hey, we already have this problem as it is. It's illegal and I don't see why it would be considered legal to download pirated games. We're talking about mods like player-made Dragon Age mods that fix glitches and stuff.

Well, anyway, I support this. No to piracy, yes to modding. Yeah, people will still try and abuse of this, but...if laws are well-written, there is no reason piracy should stop being a crime.

It's not currently illegal to modify your console. It's also not currently legal. It's the gray area that says that you can do something because no law has been made against it. In other words, the default is something is ok until it's made illegal.

Well, that's true, but I'm leaning more towards "It's actually not legal" simply because of what Sony is doing to everyone who mods a PS3. Like you said, it's all good until it's not so for the most part, I guess it's not ok. :/

y u no be simple, laws?

Beautiful End:

Crono1973:

Beautiful End:
Honestly, I'm okay with this. I don't do any of those mods myself, but I remember something from that case about the guy who modded his PS3 and Sony caught him. Man, I can't remember his name. And I'm too lazy to look it up.

Anyway, I remember someone said that once you buy the console, it's yours and you're pretty much free to do whatever the hell you want with it. You can open it and use its parts for a sculpture, you can use to hold your door open, you can play football with it, and yeah, you can mod it. I mean, you paid for it. What do they care what you do with it?

Yes, downloading games for free is not cool and I'm not supporting it. But hey, we already have this problem as it is. It's illegal and I don't see why it would be considered legal to download pirated games. We're talking about mods like player-made Dragon Age mods that fix glitches and stuff.

Well, anyway, I support this. No to piracy, yes to modding. Yeah, people will still try and abuse of this, but...if laws are well-written, there is no reason piracy should stop being a crime.

It's not currently illegal to modify your console. It's also not currently legal. It's the gray area that says that you can do something because no law has been made against it. In other words, the default is something is ok until it's made illegal.

Well, that's true, but I'm leaning more towards "It's actually not legal" simply because of what Sony is doing to everyone who mods a PS3. Like you said, it's all good until it's not so for the most part, I guess it's not ok. :/

y u no be simple, laws?

Sony doesn't make the laws, their action towards PS3 modders doesn't create new laws though they do want to scare people.

Sure I support them, they have decent ideals, a nice logo and everything.

Crono1973:

Hallowed Lady:

Kopikatsu:
I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist. You can mod your console all you want, you just can't go online with it. Why? Because while the console itself is a physical thing you own, the whole internet/online portion is a service given by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. You aren't automatically entitled to the service just because.

Not entirly true, read this:
http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Xbox+360+%7C+Modding+FAQ

There's no mention of not ebing allowed onloine, it simply states that internal modding is not allowed. I'm not sure about the PS3, but that's the case with the Xbox360.

Also note that it states you cannot pay anyone else to mod any part of the console either.

So where is this law that says it's illegal to modify your XBOX 360?

Just because Microsoft doesn't want you to modify your 360 and puts that in the EULA doesn't make it illegal. In order for something to be illegal there needs to be a law against it.

It says as clear as day that hardware modding is illegal and Microsoft isn't just arse-pulling here. It's a pretty annyoing law but it mostly lies in copyright, which I really don't want to have get into right now. From what I understand it's because they own the copyright on the console, modding is techially infringes on their rigths.

Hallowed Lady:

Crono1973:

Hallowed Lady:

Not entirly true, read this:
http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Xbox+360+%7C+Modding+FAQ

There's no mention of not ebing allowed onloine, it simply states that internal modding is not allowed. I'm not sure about the PS3, but that's the case with the Xbox360.

Also note that it states you cannot pay anyone else to mod any part of the console either.

So where is this law that says it's illegal to modify your XBOX 360?

Just because Microsoft doesn't want you to modify your 360 and puts that in the EULA doesn't make it illegal. In order for something to be illegal there needs to be a law against it.

It says as clear as day that hardware modding is illegal and Microsoft isn't just arse-pulling here. It's a pretty annyoing law but it mostly lies in copyright, which I really don't want to have get into right now. From what I understand it's because they own the copyright on the console, modding is techially infringes on their rigths.

Show me the LAW that says you can't modify your 360.

Escapist, I am not a fuckin' spammer. Why must you test me every few posts. Will there ever come a time when you trust that I am not a spammer or will you always distrust me?

Crono1973:

Hallowed Lady:

Crono1973:

So where is this law that says it's illegal to modify your XBOX 360?

Just because Microsoft doesn't want you to modify your 360 and puts that in the EULA doesn't make it illegal. In order for something to be illegal there needs to be a law against it.

It says as clear as day that hardware modding is illegal and Microsoft isn't just arse-pulling here. It's a pretty annyoing law but it mostly lies in copyright, which I really don't want to have get into right now. From what I understand it's because they own the copyright on the console, modding is techially infringes on their rigths.

Show me the LAW that says you can't modify your 360.

Escapist, I am not a fuckin' spammer. Why must you test me every few posts. Will there ever come a time when you trust that I am not a spammer or will you always distrust me?

I cannot give you the whole thing but here's the short version. Parts of Copyrigth Law are against modding, but these laws do not apply to all countries, in the case of America it does apply. This is because it infringes on the rights of the owner and while I cannot give you the exact part of the law which says this, I do have some links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modding
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090804/1537125771.shtml

If you want more just ask.

While not ALL modding is illegal tinkering with the consoles insides is counted as such, depending on where you live.

EDIT: The spammer thing can get annoying, that's for sure.

EDIT2: Just to point out there's no law stating you cannot Mod an xbox 360, but it's more against actions such as modding. This is why I can't give you a law against modding but have to go into copyright stuff, because the pattern belongs to Mircosoft they techinally say what you can and cannot do with their machine. The issue is that the laws are pretty sketchy, since as stated before different countries view in different ways.

Again I am sorry if this is all a bit vague, but as far as I can understand Copyright law can be an arse when it comes down to things.

FelixG:
Gotta love that someone is standing up for the rights of the consumer!

Hopefully they succeed.

TimeLord:
I can see no way in which this can backfire!

Yep, all those lawsuits already from companies taking people like that guy to cracked the PS3 (can't remember his name) that got so much coverage. I can't see him taking the companies to court and claiming damages or whatnot.

Yep, nothing will go wrong...

Well, Sony should be put in their place for telling him what he can do with something he bought.

its like ford telling you that if you paint your damn car they are going to take you to court.

Actually if you get a loan from the bank to purchase the car, they CAN tell you not to paint it. Funny that.

Anyhow, good. I want my god damned rights to legally purchased hardware back.

That completely pisses in the face of "proprietary products".
The EFF will fail; they're lobbying directly against Big Media, who have far deeper pockets and closer connections in politics.

So while I appreciate the idealist notion and the effort in an age where the customer is treated increasingly like a scam mark, I also know that this simply will NEVER happen.

Such overt modding directly threatens the security of the Publisher and Developers' revenues, which is, overwhelmingly, their #1 motivation for pushing the console market. Take that away from a firmly established market, and there will be legal Armageddon.

Still, one cannot unilaterally argue in favor of one or the other:
Give the Big Three & Publishers too much power, and they will leverage everything they can, eventually creating a snapping effect that breaks the market when disaster strikes (I would hope the major PSN intrusion would have been a wake-up call to the masses; but I somehow doubt it. And this is in spite of Sony stripping their rightfully-angry customers of their right to sue them; the only leverage and means of security that they had left).

Give the consumers (Demand) too much freedom, and you end up with the Tragedy of the Commons; represented here as rampant piracy. (Yes, these mods aren't used EXCLUSIVELY for piracy, but historically, that has been the main use for them by an overwhelming degree)

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