BioWare "Falsely Advertised" Mass Effect 3

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Scorpid:
You know what's killing me is that BioWare keeps saying "We're listening." in one breath and in the other "We completely disagree and stand by our product." over and over again. The subtext seems to me from those two statements they reuse is "We're listening to your complaining and are releasing extended cut so you might be quiet about this, even though we think our customers are wrong.". Which is simply insulting. I really don't understand why Bioware thinks to compromise their integrity is to give the fans what they want. Well if they keep that up they won't have as many fans to compromise their integrity over after this madness.

This whole discussion has been going on since the games release. This is no longer about the series and creators integrity but maintaining the brand image of Bioware which by anyones measure is suffering immensely from this whole debacle.

ALSO I wish you people would stop calling each other whiners and such, it's childish way of arguing any topic and only hurts your position in my opinion. For people just wanting it to end it inflames emotions and for people that defend bioware it only causes people that disagree with you to shut out the rest of things you say when you insult them in such a way, even IF you have a actual point.

already on the official ME3 forum people are upset about this move of bioware and their behavior and also said they will not get a bioware game again. the fans are also complaining why bioware extends this ending instead changing it.
but bioware just claims they want to protect the artistic view, which is just stupid. how can a non sense ending be seen as art?
its like you buy a car without windows and the factory doenst want to put in windows because it might destroy their view of design. and then wondering why people complain.

also agree about the name calling. people spend a lot of money in these games (collector editions) including DLCs, tones of hours of game play, making decisions and then the ending just ignores all of this. and then you guys are wondering why we are upset about it.

I was going to post something about the ending here but the sheer amount of hyperbole (and hyperbolic metaphors) on both sides of the argument is making my brain hurt.

On-topic: the topic here focuses on the dangers of false advertising and where the line is drawn. I think they have a point, but using absolutes in our language to advertise and promote is so in-grained into our media that we start to forget the problems that occur when people start keeping companies to their literal word and the whole thing is construed as a lie.

DVS BSTrD:

AnarchistAbe:

DVS BSTrD:
Don't worry, I'm YOU'LL always find something to complain about.

Good one! Got any more? Please, let's hear them.

You want more?
Well what YOU want is irrelevant, because what YOU'LL get is me ignoring you from now on until you realize the irony of going on a massive bitching bender about how other people are going on a massive bitching bender.

Good day sir!

*ignored*

This is win. You sir, won an internet.

if only we could harness the Mass Effect rage, we could power a planet! Seriously though, this is how us Starwars fans feel about Lucas. Welcome to the party ME fans

Evil Smurf:
if only we could harness the Mass Effect rage, we could power a planet! Seriously though, this is how us Starwars fans feel about Lucas. Welcome to the party ME fans

Except as far as I know most ME fans are also Star Wars fans. Still a Star Wars fan despite the changes. Can't really call myself and ME fan anymore. After the shoddy ending, my enthusiasm for anything that happens in that universe waned. Can't say I am excited about the possibly of ME4 like I was BEFORE ME3 was released. I even stopped reading the comic. I just don't really care.

They were careless with their last novel, it was a serious disappointment. Then they got careless with their sophomoric philosophy ending. I think the writers for ME3 overestimated their skill.

Metalrocks:

already on the official ME3 forum people are upset about this move of bioware and their behavior and also said they will not get a bioware game again. the fans are also complaining why bioware extends this ending instead changing it.
but bioware just claims they want to protect the artistic view, which is just stupid. how can a non sense ending be seen as art?
its like you buy a car without windows and the factory doenst want to put in windows because it might destroy their view of design. and then wondering why people complain.

Remember the crucifix in the Jar of urine? Right here on escapist was the artist that used a toilet with different grades of urine to create Iron Man. That was all considered art.

I have little sympathy for Bioware calling their ending art. The ending did NOT fit with the artistic vision of Mass Effect unless they intended that twist as M Night Shalamalan intends the twist for his movie. Like him they make the mistake of thinking the twist clever.

I think they tried an ending like 2001 a Space Odyssey. If they did they managed it with the quality of a High School Play rendition. Their artistic integrity is admirable. But if that is the art they will laughingly defend, I have lots of entertainment to spend money on, I don't need bioware's sophomoric visions.

Less QQ, more pew pew

Honestly! Fans didn't even get this pissy when Mega Man Legends 3 was canceled.

I hope you're all happy. You not only made a developer change their work as they saw it, but you all just made a publisher realize they can do exactly this and make money off of it.

ALL OF YOU who bitch about SFxTekken, RE5's online, or re-releases of SFIV and UMvC3: congratulations! You justified it. You justified it to the publisher. Now, devs don't need to care about what's on the disc. They don't even have to give us a full game now at launch. They can end it our $60 disc adventure half way through and cut to a black screen mid boss battle that says 'please insert 800 Microsoft points.'

You're all WORSE than the Sonic fanbase.

EDIT:

I want to remind everyone here to a fact I find rather small and obvious, but here goes:

MOST OF THE BEST VIDEO GAMES OF ALL TIME HAVE HORRIBLE ENDINGS THAT AREN'T EVEN WORTH WATCHING ON YOUTUBE

Game endings sucks. Sonic endings are boring, Ocarina of Time retcons itself, Super Mario Bros 3's ending is Peach TEASING you, Bioshock's ending was awful, Deus Ex: HR's ending was the same for every choice, and Fallout 3 KILLED YOU. Let's not forget the endings to MMX, Shenmue, Fable, Mega Man Legends 2, and seriously just every game I can think of outside of a very few special cases Half-Life and Shadow of the Colossus.

Kevlar Eater:
But... but... but... artistic integrity! Would someone PLEASE think of the artistic integrity?!

Oh, good one

On Topic: I don't care anymore. I already beat the game, and I doubt anything will let me forget the disappointing ending I saw (the first time). Bioware already said they are proud of what they did (I can't see why) and that they will NOT make new endings. So yeah, Mass Effect is over, waiting for Diablo 3 now.

Anyone who believes that the Extended Cut DLC wasn't already planned from the very beginning (BEFORE the movement began to get the ending changed) is quite simply in denial. You, Take Back ME3ers, do you think you've changed anything? This was their plan from the beginning: release the game with an abstract ending that doesn't seem to fit, ride on the free publicity that such a controversial ending would naturally have, and then offer to expand on it with additional DLC at a later date. Even the game tells you that there would be further DLC to come. All you've really done is play directly into their hands and give them tons of free press which they are now using to get millions of extra copies sold, as players will naturally be curious and want to see what all the fuss is about. Congrats, you've boosted their sales and you're now getting free DLC that they already planned to give you as an apology. Now, have you learned your lesson yet, or will we have to keep explaining this to your fanbase over and over for the next several months?

Scorpid:
You know what's killing me is that BioWare keeps saying "We're listening." in one breath and in the other "We completely disagree and stand by our product." over and over again. The subtext seems to me from those two statements they reuse is "We're listening to your complaining and are releasing extended cut so you might be quiet about this, even though we think our customers are wrong.". Which is simply insulting. I really don't understand why Bioware thinks to compromise their integrity is to give the fans what they want. Well if they keep that up they won't have as many fans to compromise their integrity over after this madness.

This whole discussion has been going on since the games release. This is no longer about the series and creators integrity but maintaining the brand image of Bioware which by anyones measure is suffering immensely from this whole debacle.

ALSO I wish you people would stop calling each other whiners and such, it's childish way of arguing any topic and only hurts your position in my opinion. For people just wanting it to end it inflames emotions and for people that defend bioware it only causes people that disagree with you to shut out the rest of things you say when you insult them in such a way, even IF you have a actual point.

It's got squat to do with integrity.

I can hear and understand what you're saying, and still disagree with it. That's how Bioware is approaching this. They figure you're going to buy their next game anyways, so why bother concerning themselves over it?

And you growl and twitch in anger now, but when the words "Mass Effect 4" first appear on your computer screens and televisions, your anger will be swiftly replaced with curiousity and you'll become docile and eager to whip out your wallet again. Maybe it's not true for you specifically, dear poster, but this is what Bioware is counting on. Bet on it.

DigitalAtlas:
Less QQ, more pew pew

Honestly! Fans didn't even get this pissy when Mega Man Legends 3 was canceled.

Actually they did, I saw a ton of rage and people completely throwing off Capcom entirely after that among other things. The twitter page was flaming.

DigitalAtlas:

ALL OF YOU who bitch about SFxTekken, RE5's online, or re-releases of SFIV and UMvC3: congratulations! You justified it. You justified it to the publisher. Now, devs don't need to care about what's on the disc. They don't even have to give us a full game now at launch. They can end it our $60 disc adventure half way through and cut to a black screen mid boss battle that says 'please insert 800 Microsoft points.'

You're all WORSE than the Sonic fanbase.

Also I have no idea what you're trying to argue with this paragraph, and like many people in this thread you're generalizing the whole issue via strawman tactics.

DigitalAtlas:

I want to remind everyone here to a fact I find rather small and obvious, but here goes:

MOST OF THE BEST VIDEO GAMES OF ALL TIME HAVE HORRIBLE ENDINGS THAT AREN'T EVEN WORTH WATCHING ON YOUTUBE

Yes and? That doesn't make ME3's ending acceptable, if people find the ending bad they complain it's that simple. There are plenty of people who have distinguished the good aspects of games from the bad.

For fans of Bioware, the story is the thing that keeps them attached. Myself after ME2 felt that Bioware was the one the last bastions of good Western Storytelling in videogames.

Finally, an intellectual willing to discuss this with me.

Lovely Mixture:

Actually they did, I saw a ton of rage and people completely throwing off Capcom entirely after that among other things. The twitter page was flaming.

Also I have no idea what you're trying to argue with that first paragraph, and like everyone else you're generalizing the whole issue via strawman tactics.

Yes, their was flaming and complaining. But full refunds given for opened and played games? Outcry for over a month over the audacity to actually change the ending? This is out of hand.

Lovely Mixture:

Yes and? That doesn't make ME3's ending acceptable, if people find the ending bad they complain it's that simple. There are plenty of people who have distinguished the good aspects of games from the bad.

For fans of Bioware, the story is the thing that keeps them attached. Myself after ME2 felt that Bioware was the one the last bastions of good Western Storytelling in videogames.

It's not simple complaints though. It's bashing, flaming, and completely putting down the studio that made these people spend $180 max to begin with. They gave the players joy beyond belief and because the fans didn't get the exact ending they wanted, they've brutalized the game- made it seem as if it's a 1/5 title. In reality, these people have forgotten what a bad game is. They're forgotten the very history of games in general and how a trilogy where your actions are carried over from game-to-game is such a huge milestone.

As for story, there are tons of games that exist for the sake of story and only story. Alan Wake did nothing BUT advertise story. Warren Spector does nothing but talk about creating a story within his games.

What we forget is, most of these games are great and it's the experience that makes it all worth it despite the fact most of these games have horrendous stories and/or endings.

Again, look at Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The endings were terrible. Hell, the story even got incredibly off-track. I see no amazon or publisher refunds for open games. Gears of War 3 was a trilogy that started with a seemingly interesting story to tell, and we got nothing throughout all three games. Then there was God of War 3, a trilogy advertising a Greek tragedy for a narrative, and it ended up retconning itself in the final moments.

Story is only one aspect of the game and complaining that "OH MAN! THAT STORY WAS SO GREAT UNTIL THE ENDING THAT CAME THREE GAMES LATER! WORST STUDIO EVER! TAKE DOWN THE HIGH-SCORE REVIEWS!!!" is just nothing more than forgetting the better pieces of the game. Furthermore, bitching about it and making such a fuss is just bullying the developers. It's immature and is just the equivalent of throwing a tantrum. If you want BioWare to succeed, stop getting so angry because you're on the internet and can act in such a way. Be formal, punctual and overall, just nice and aware. It'll help BioWare in the future.

"In the sense of politeness, the Sonic fanbase is a very vocal bunch that will not shy away from letting people know how they feel if unsatisfied with their product." - Youtube LP'er.

"In the sense of politeness, the Mass Effect fanbase is a very vocal bunch that will not shy away from letting people know how they feel if unsatisfied with their product." - What needs to be said about this whole situation.

EDIT: Furthermore, if this post seems incredibly rushed and unstructured, I apologize, because it is both of those.

CriticKitten:
Anyone who believes that the Extended Cut DLC wasn't already planned from the very beginning (BEFORE the movement began to get the ending changed) is quite simply in denial. You, Take Back ME3ers, do you think you've changed anything? This was their plan from the beginning: release the game with an abstract ending that doesn't seem to fit, ride on the free publicity that such a controversial ending would naturally have, and then offer to expand on it with additional DLC at a later date. Even the game tells you that there would be further DLC to come. All you've really done is play directly into their hands and give them tons of free press which they are now using to get millions of extra copies sold, as players will naturally be curious and want to see what all the fuss is about. Congrats, you've boosted their sales and you're now getting free DLC that they already planned to give you as an apology. Now, have you learned your lesson yet, or will we have to keep explaining this to your fanbase over and over for the next several months?

Scorpid:
You know what's killing me is that BioWare keeps saying "We're listening." in one breath and in the other "We completely disagree and stand by our product." over and over again. The subtext seems to me from those two statements they reuse is "We're listening to your complaining and are releasing extended cut so you might be quiet about this, even though we think our customers are wrong.". Which is simply insulting. I really don't understand why Bioware thinks to compromise their integrity is to give the fans what they want. Well if they keep that up they won't have as many fans to compromise their integrity over after this madness.

This whole discussion has been going on since the games release. This is no longer about the series and creators integrity but maintaining the brand image of Bioware which by anyones measure is suffering immensely from this whole debacle.

ALSO I wish you people would stop calling each other whiners and such, it's childish way of arguing any topic and only hurts your position in my opinion. For people just wanting it to end it inflames emotions and for people that defend bioware it only causes people that disagree with you to shut out the rest of things you say when you insult them in such a way, even IF you have a actual point.

It's got squat to do with integrity.

I can hear and understand what you're saying, and still disagree with it. That's how Bioware is approaching this. They figure you're going to buy their next game anyways, so why bother concerning themselves over it?

And you growl and twitch in anger now, but when the words "Mass Effect 4" first appear on your computer screens and televisions, your anger will be swiftly replaced with curiousity and you'll become docile and eager to whip out your wallet again. Maybe it's not true for you specifically, dear poster, but this is what Bioware is counting on. Bet on it.

HA that's some bold claims. Perhaps you believe the Ford Pinto was released to get them some of that sweet press attention from their cars having a nasty habit of exploding on impact. I also do not "twitch and growl". I'm not sure what image you have of someone that doesn't like the ending of ME3 but it seems sort of unrealistic.

I absolutely see no good that has come from this for Bioware. They were already top dog in the RPG market when ME3 was released so setting up some sure to fail ending would seem absurd. I don't think we'll see a ME4, not because of the ending controversy but just because they've said that this will be the last game in the ME3 universe in the foreseeable future.

But I suppose your real point was that when Bioware released another RPG I'll still pay for it. I probably will I really liked DA2 and DA3 will be something to look forward to and seems to be their next project. I never claimed that this was some critical life or death issue for Bioware but what i was trying to say was that it's hurting their brand image over something that shouldn't of been a issue. There is a growing number of people dissatisfied with the Bioware brand after DA2 and ME3 and it's easy to see many of them not rushing out to buy the next Bioware entry in the first few days which is when games make their money from the base game before copies can get traded in. Lower then expected pre-orders for their next game will be the first sign of this. Or they might not even buy the game at all because they might want to buy ohhh saaay, **!WASTELAND 2!** which only has 3 days left to donate now at the one time low price of $15! Holy cow that's cheap =o

DigitalAtlas:

Yes, their was flaming and complaining. But full refunds given for opened and played games? Outcry for over a month over the audacity to actually change the ending? This is out of hand.

You do have a point here. Compared to other outcries, Mass Effect 3 is a bit of an oddity in that regard, but Mass Effect was especially built up over 5 years. Whether or not that justifies the outcry depends on your stance I guess.

I guess I should clarify MY stance on things and what I am arguing.
I'm upset about the ending, I was skeptical about the whole "your choices have meaning" selling point (and I do consider it a selling point cause it's what Bioware made a huge deal of) but Mass Effect 2 made me think they might pull it off. But I am not demanding a refund. I agree that such a demand is going too far.
If I could specify my demands to Bioware, it would be: "Please perform drastic changes to your writing staff (ie. fire Hepler) and move on." I don't know if I agree with changing the ending, but I sure as hell understand it.

DigitalAtlas:

It's not simple complaints though. It's bashing, flaming, and completely putting down the studio that made these people spend $180 max to begin with. They gave the players joy beyond belief and because the fans didn't get the exact ending they wanted, they've brutalized the game- made it seem as if it's a 1/5 title. In reality, these people have forgotten what a bad game is. They're forgotten the very history of games in general and how a trilogy where your actions are carried over from game-to-game is such a huge milestone.

As for story, there are tons of games that exist for the sake of story and only story. Alan Wake did nothing BUT advertise story. Warren Spector does nothing but talk about creating a story within his games.

What we forget is, most of these games are great and it's the experience that makes it all worth it despite the fact most of these games have horrendous stories and/or endings.

Again, look at Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The endings were terrible. Hell, the story even got incredibly off-track. I see no amazon or publisher refunds for open games.Gears of War 3 was a trilogy that started with a seemingly interesting story to tell, and we got nothing throughout all three games. Then there was God of War 3, a trilogy advertising a Greek tragedy for a narrative, and it ended up retconning itself in the final moments.

This is where things get complicated. You are right in that Mass Effect series is important case in gaming, but it's that very reason that people are reacting this way. It's the five years thing again, it all sort of depends how much Mass Effect meant to you and thus whether or not the 1% of shit removes the 99% of good.

I think the issue of videogames having bad endings may be a core issue as well. Mass Effect 3 may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. The other games weren't built up over 5 years after all (actually Alan Wake may have now that you mention it).

Story is only one aspect of the game and complaining that "OH MAN! THAT STORY WAS SO GREAT UNTIL THE ENDING THAT CAME THREE GAMES LATER! WORST STUDIO EVER! TAKE DOWN THE HIGH-SCORE REVIEWS!!!" is just nothing more than forgetting the better pieces of the game. Furthermore, bitching about it and making such a fuss is just bullying the developers. It's immature and is just the equivalent of throwing a tantrum. If you want BioWare to succeed, stop getting so angry because you're on the internet and can act in such a way. Be formal, punctual and overall, just nice and aware. It'll help BioWare in the future.

Yes, I can agree on politeness. It just seems that most people are generalizing people who hated the ending as the very same who are sending death threats to Bioware. They aren't of course. People are cutting a line down the middle and saying "This you. This is us."

Lovely Mixture:

Yes, I can agree on politeness. It just seems that most people are generalizing people who hated the ending as the very same who are sending death threats to Bioware. They aren't of course. People are cutting a line down the middle and saying "This you. This is us."

On that note, has anyone realised how... hostile the entire movement has presented itself? Language like "Retake" Mass Effect and people spouting "hold the line" the entire time really doesn't garner an image of co-operation and a willingness to help.

I know both are gentle jabs at quoting the games and a lot of people are simply going about this business in a proper and decent manner, but the whole thing has come off as an "us versus them, and they are the baddies" sort of mentality. And that does go against the idea that they're touting, that the players are just as much the 'authors' of the game as the developers are - but instead there's this great divide where people feel "betrayed" and are never going to buy another Bioware game ever again or something.

I just think it was a poor choice of language, and it doesn't help that there is a more vocal portion of the movement that are tainting its image by following up their opinions with obnoxious posts and expletives.

Scorpid:
HA that's some bold claims. Perhaps you believe the Ford Pinto was released to get them some of that sweet press attention from their cars having a nasty habit of exploding on impact.

And yet, the fact that ME3 managed to sell twice as many copies in its opening month as ME2 despite a 25% downtrend in the overall gaming market would suggest that this supposedly stupid marketing strategy WORKED. Hell, look at how many copies of Duke Nukem Forever were sold in the months that followed its release, despite the massive critical and fan ridicule. There's a lot of people out there who will buy a game out of morbid curiosity just to see how bad it really is. Good press, bad press, either way it's still press. It's still attention. And attention yields sales.

I know. Reality is just so hard to deal with sometimes, isn't it?

I also do not "twitch and growl". I'm not sure what image you have of someone that doesn't like the ending of ME3 but it seems sort of unrealistic.

Would you prefer I used grumble and drool? It's a joke, yo, lighten up. :p

I absolutely see no good that has come from this for Bioware. They were already top dog in the RPG market when ME3 was released so setting up some sure to fail ending would seem absurd. I don't think we'll see a ME4, not because of the ending controversy but just because they've said that this will be the last game in the ME3 universe in the foreseeable future.

Yes, and Bungie said that Halo Reach was most definitely the last Halo. And that lasted for how long? And look who's making it: an entire studio composed of ex-Bungie employees! And EA's word is far less reliable than Bungie's, so I think I would hold my breath on that one if I were you. If you take EA at their word that there will be no more Mass Effect games, then you're in luck because I have some swamp land in Florida and several million dollars in frozen Nigerian assets that I'd like to give you! Now if you'll just fill out this form with all of your important information....

No but seriously, even if Bioware decides they don't want to make any more (and I sincerely doubt they'd abandon one of their biggest franchises, assuming EA would even let them do so as it's rather clear who is pulling their leash these days), then EA will make someone else do it instead. They'll use some nonsensical excuse like "well we said it would be the last one with Shepard, not the last one ever!" and then push out ME4 with some other lead character, and start a new trilogy in the same universe. If you want to count on a company's word then that's your business, bro, but I'd rather be a cynical person who ends up being wrong than an overly trusting optimistic who ends up being wrong.

But I suppose your real point was that when Bioware released another RPG I'll still pay for it. I probably will I really liked DA2 and DA3 will be something to look forward to and seems to be their next project. I never claimed that this was some critical life or death issue for Bioware but what i was trying to say was that it's hurting their brand image over something that shouldn't of been a issue. There is a growing number of people dissatisfied with the Bioware brand after DA2 and ME3 and it's easy to see many of them not rushing out to buy the next Bioware entry in the first few days which is when games make their money from the base game before copies can get traded in. Lower then expected pre-orders for their next game will be the first sign of this. Or they might not even buy the game at all because they might want to buy ohhh saaay, **!WASTELAND 2!** which only has 3 days left to donate now at the one time low price of $15! Holy cow that's cheap =o

You're not getting it. They don't care if it hurts their brand name. EA had a reputation for being a shit-shoveling wagon for years prior to this game, and it's still sold how many copies? 3.5 million was the figure last I heard, and still growing. Why on earth would EA care what reputation they have if they can still sell games at that level despite the rest of the gaming market being down by nearly 25% in the same month? They wouldn't, because they know you'll keep buying their games no matter how much they abuse you. And that's precisely why they've already won.

It's amazing how so many people are assuming the endings were done badly deliberately as part of an evil conspiracy on the part of EA and Bioware to charge for game-fixing DLC and milk money from all the poor, dejected fanboys. That line of thought kind of falls apart when you consider that:

A) Of the DLC they've released so far, we've had a $10 bonus mission and squadmate pack that's free with the Collector's Edition, a free multiplayer pack offering some amazing new content, and a proposed Extended Cut of the endings that's also free. Guys, if they were really trying to milk us, they'd have done it by now.

B) If you look at Bioware's respnses to fan complaints, it's generally been along the lines of "Sorry you didn't like the ending, we can't completely change it because that would require time and money and we have other projects to work on. If it makes you feel better, we'll pay attention to the fan criticisms and try and make something that works well for both us." Bioware don't hate their fans and it looks like they've been trying as hard as possible to meet them halfway on this issue, which is frankly more than any of the complainers deserve.

The false advertising claim is all about the promise that "the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome". I think they delivered on that pretty well, just not in the way people were hoping. While it's true that all of the decisions you make across the trilogy ultimately come down to a single number rating that just creates minor variations on the three big decisions at the end, I can't conceivably think of way they could have done it differently. People need to realise that there's more to this game than just the last 10 minutes even if that's all people ever want to fucking talk about now.

Could we find something else to talk about?
And where was all of this fanboy rage when EA decided to release some half-assed motion comic instead of the first Mass Effect on the PS3? Nobody complained about that, but they won't shut the hell up about the ending of ME3.

satsugaikaze:

On that note, has anyone realised how... hostile the entire movement has presented itself? Language like "Retake" Mass Effect and people spouting "hold the line" the entire time really doesn't garner an image of co-operation and a willingness to help.

Well in case you don't know. The whole "Retake" thing was spawned from Bioware's own slogan for ME3 "Retake Earth." It was meant to be ironic, but came off as hostile. The hold-the-line thing is the motto of the Salarian commandos, so it's intended to be just referential.

Poor choice? Probably. But I doubt it was intended to be hostile by everybody.

Is it just me, or does this thread contain more "ugh ME, stop whining" whining than relevant discussion regarding the BBB observation.

People complaining, thus bumping the thread, causing more people to complain about it being bumped ... it's vicious cycle

As for the subject matter at hand, personally I'm long since over my ME3 disappointment. Yeah, it sucks... but it's hardly the first bad game I've played. I would however, like to see the Casey Hudson taken to task over his blatant lies. If a company wants to pump their game up by saying "it's awesome" ... that's fine, "awesome" is a purely subjective measure and ymmv. However, giving a concrete number for the possible endings (16, was it) and saying X will affect Y eliminated any ymmv interpretation. Either the game meets the metrics it set for itself or it doesn't, and if not, legal actions will follow.

Still annoyed about Bioware saying it won't be a three choice ending, and then it being a three choice ending. The way the company has presented itself and DA2 meant I was going to wait and see before buying it, but that quote actually convinced me to pre-order. I wouldn't have spent 60$ on the thing otherwise, the controversy over the ending would've had me waiting until' the price dropped.

So, I'm just not going to buy Bioware games until' they've been out for a while, that way I'll have more sources at my disposal to figure out if it's worth a purchase. Which given the way they've been acting and doing things, might well mean i just won't buy their games anymore.

Still think they should face some sort of financial repercussions for outright lying about the ending though. Shit like that shouldn't be tolerated.

DigitalAtlas:
because the fans didn't get the exact ending they wanted

I think you meant to say 'beacuse the fans didnt get the endings that Bioware promised and misled the fans into thinking they would get' .

The endings are exactly what devs from Bioware have been *quoted* as saying would NOT happen, some of which I think are quotes from after the game went gold.

The fact the endings also don't gel at all with the established lore (relays exploding = dead star system, whoops just killed more people than the reapers), make no sense based on the information given to the players (how does Joker make it from earth to the sol relay out by pluto?) and are just plain poor writing....all kind of explains why fans are rightfully pissed off.

Taerdin:
It's pretty cool how corporations have convinced everyone that asking for what you want to spend your money on as a customer is 'whining' or something derogatory.

I mean it's really convenient for them to be able to just do whatever they want, and if people don't like it they get told they are being stupid for having an opinion or criticising anything.

I feel like there is a war against critical thinking and critical thinking is losing...

Also, I have to give props to IGN and the other game news/media outlets for spinning this whole thing so that anyone who criticises BioWare's work is attacking the artistic integrity of the medium as we know it.

They are really earning those EA dollars! Also I wonder which IGN contributor will have a role in their next game? Must be so great having people in your pocket :)

Except you are equating criticism with attempting suing for false advertising and customers saying that they are entitled to better and that EA MUST PROVIDE IT.

The game said you take choices that pick an ending. Sure its shit but it still happens. It isnt false advertising. And you know what its GOOD that we critisize. No ones saying its wrong to critisize and thats a total strawman, so much for critical thinking that straw doesnt boast many neurones does it?. If i buy the last book in the trilogy of my favourite books, (this happened with the eregon series) and its complete shit i can do the following things.

1. Give it a fair and bad review because it wasnt good online, discourage friends from reading it.
2. Not buy from that author again.

I cant return it. I cant demand a different ending. I cant MAKE the author make a story that I want. You cant. You just cant. You purchased a product, agreed with the buyer that youd get it based on: Previous work that only tangentally told us about the quality of this work and a promise in a teaser that was technically correct. I didnt pre order. I waited. I saw that its apparently crap. And i havnt bought it because im voting with my wallet and not by complaining (because companies totally take you super cerial if you buy their stuff and THEN say they need to change while continuing to buy their stuff).

I imagine you bought it. Whos feeding the companies now?

Kingjackl:
It's amazing how so many people are assuming the endings were done badly deliberately as part of an evil conspiracy on the part of EA and Bioware to charge for game-fixing DLC and milk money from all the poor, dejected fanboys.

It's fascinating that you think it comes down to "good" and "evil". It's got nothing to do with that really, it's just a matter of press. What's the absolute best way to "end" a major franchise that has made you countless millions of dollars? End it normally and people will be satisfied but eventually move on and forget it. End it on a somewhat controversial note and people will be screaming about it for years, all while you continue to make untold sums of money off of.

You tell me: which one seems like it'll make you more money: to end happily ever after, or to end with some confusion and controversy to set the stage for additional content later?

You say it's unlikely that EA would do this, but I say that the fact that ME3 outsold its predecessor game by over double the number of units in its opening month (thanks to all of the free press provided by raging internet fans) despite a major market downturn would suggest that it obviously works pretty well. Look for more companies to do this in the future.

A) Of the DLC they've released so far, we've had a $10 bonus mission and squadmate pack that's free with the Collector's Edition, a free multiplayer pack offering some amazing new content, and a proposed Extended Cut of the endings that's also free. Guys, if they were really trying to milk us, they'd have done it by now.

Oh, yes, surely the fact that they're gifting you two pairs of DLC that they had already planned to give you to begin with is proof positive that they're really just misunderstood angels.

No but seriously, if you think the Extended Cut DLC is the only DLC they're going to make for ME3, I hope you're prepared to be unpleasantly surprised. The Extended Cut DLC is the only one they've announced thus far because the fans are in full rage mode right now. Wait until after it's released, a few months down the road or so, and we'll see if they're truly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts or if this is merely a planned and intentional placation of the fanbase in order to set the stage for more DLC later on.

B) If you look at Bioware's respnses to fan complaints, it's generally been along the lines of "Sorry you didn't like the ending, we can't completely change it because that would require time and money and we have other projects to work on. If it makes you feel better, we'll pay attention to the fan criticisms and try and make something that works well for both us." Bioware don't hate their fans and it looks like they've been trying as hard as possible to meet them halfway on this issue, which is frankly more than any of the complainers deserve.

Yes, let's look at their initial response to fans, shall we?

Their initial responses as located on Twitter include statements akin to "If the fans knew what was coming, they wouldn't complain so much.", "Are you sure he's dead?" and other such posts. Some of these came mere days after launch. This suggests rather directly that Bioware had a plan for some additional content already, well BEFORE the fan outrage started. And that this content would somehow quell most, if not all, of the fan rage.

Now you tell me if this adds up to you: a company which is honestly just misunderstood already has a plan for additional DLC that supposedly answers fan complaints BEFORE the fans had an opportunity to make those complaints in the first place. What does that tell you? It tells me that perhaps they had this Extended Cut DLC planned from the very start. Why else would they say that fans "wouldn't complain if they knew what was coming" unless they already had plans for DLC that answered the fan complaints? And if indeed they did have this planned from the start, that implies that they knew the ending would be a point of controversy but released it in that form anyways.

Huh, funny. Isn't that getting rather similar to your extremist notion of the "evil company who makes the ending bad just for shits and giggles"? I guess it's not quite as implausible as you assert it to be.

Like I said before, it's got nothing to do with being evil. It's all about the money. They knew that if the game was released in a controversial form, they'd get plenty of press for it. And good or bad, press is still press, and press leads to sales. You don't think they're going to "milk you" for DLC? Well, why don't we revisit this discussion in about two years. I guess by then we'll find out who was right and who was wrong. But as stated prior, I'd rather be cynical and wrong than be optimistic-to-the-point-of-being-blind-to-the-obvious and end up being wrong.

The false advertising claim is all about the promise that "the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome". I think they delivered on that pretty well, just not in the way people were hoping. While it's true that all of the decisions you make across the trilogy ultimately come down to a single number rating that just creates minor variations on the three big decisions at the end, I can't conceivably think of way they could have done it differently. People need to realise that there's more to this game than just the last 10 minutes even if that's all people ever want to fucking talk about now.

I think we can agree on that much. I've seen people give the game a terrible rating on the ending alone, which is mind-blowing to me.

BiscuitTrouser:
If i buy the last book in the trilogy of my favourite books, (this happened with the eregon series) and its complete shit i can do the following things.

1. Give it a fair and bad review because it wasnt good online, discourage friends from reading it.
2. Not buy from that author again.

I cant return it. I cant demand a different ending. I cant MAKE the author make a story that I want. You cant. You just cant. You purchased a product, agreed with the buyer that youd get it based on: Previous work that only tangentally told us about the quality of this work and a promise in a teaser that was technically correct. I didnt pre order. I waited. I saw that its apparently crap. And i havnt bought it because im voting with my wallet and not by complaining (because companies totally take you super cerial if you buy their stuff and THEN say they need to change while continuing to buy their stuff).

I imagine you bought it. Whos feeding the companies now?

To be fair, they COULD have returned the game. Amazon offered folks an opportunity to return the game for a full refund even if you didn't buy the game from them.

It's just that people decided that whining on the internet was far more productive.

Now watch, they're going to be placated by this "Extended Cut DLC" that the company already planned on giving them in the first place. And they'll continue to buy product from EA. That's why I say that the Take Back ME3 movement failed, and EA has already won. Because they know damn well they can do whatever they want to their customers and still sell units like crazy.

It's akin to what Blizzard has done to its games.

DigitalAtlas:
They gave the players joy beyond belief and because the fans didn't get the exact ending they wanted, they've brutalized the game- made it seem as if it's a 1/5 title.

Its not about an ending we "didn't want"... well ok, you are right, but only in the context the the current ending of ME3 breaks every lore point, and story telling element the previous 90-120 hours BioWare weaved so damn good previously (I admit, not every part was great, but was damn good over all -- all in all). The ending is a 180° change to the story and we are expected to swallow it and be happy "that we got even that much."

Most people were full aware that Shepard was going to die, or make it out but at a major cost of nearly everybody who had been at his side the entire time. Only a very-very-very few wanted rainbows and kittens for the ending of ME3; but even they knew at heart - that wasn't really going to happen.
There isn't a person in here in this thread who wouldn't have rammed Harbinger with Normandy with everybody on board if it meant that it would disrupt and stop the Reapers dead cold.

Hell, the game should have ended on a cliff hanger at the moment of entering the SoL system with us getting a real ending a few months later; instead of this half baked cop-out, "it may or may not be a 'dream'.. but we don't want to ruin the 'surprise' later." Which even this so far as been water down now to just "its extra movies to help give 'closure'".

But as it stands, it doesn't matter how much of a Jerk or Good Guy I was for ME1, ME2 and ME3, because the ending completely marginalizes every single in game choices I made since standing on the bridge of Normandy going to Eden Prime before I even knew what the Geth were. The game says, your choices don't fucking matter, only choosing one of these 3 magical pills that create special space magic matter.

Thats why we hate the ending of ME3, it has broken every promise made since ME1.

Mark my words, people. The fallout of this scandal will continue to linger until Bioware unfuck themselves and fix the ending.

And to those that still flame us for wanting a fix to this - we're not entitled. Bioware promised, they didn't deliver. We are well within our rights to bitch when we were literally scammed.

Now, the BBB actually answering to the complaint? I honestly didn't expect this. It may not actually mean much in court, but it sure as fuck is cause for cheer when our point is being recognized here.

To be fair when a company lies in their advertising they usually:

A- Get forced to change the ad.
B- Suffer a fine or are forced to allow returns.

I don't think they have ever been forced to change their product in order to fit their advertising.

My question is this. With this being done, will we do this to every other game/publisher that promises the world but doesn't deliver, or is this going to be a one time thing specifically aimed against this one game/company? I mean, claims like this have been going on since the late 80's. If this can be applied to every company does this mean we can decry Lionhead to the BBB?

kiri2tsubasa:
My question is this. With this being done, will we do this to every other game/publisher that promises the world but doesn't deliver, or is this going to be a one time thing specifically aimed against this one game/company? I mean, claims like this have been going on since the late 80's. If this can be applied to every company does this mean we can decry Lionhead to the BBB?

I'm thinking the difference is the context the information is presented in. Molyneux getting overexcited and making ridiculous promises in interviews is one thing, but Lionhead doesn't actually advertise that stuff, aside from the interviews. Yeah, BW lied about ME3 in interviews, but they can't really be held accountable for what devs say while the game is still in development; BBB is taking issue with the actual advertisement, like the official website.

Edit: And this still doesn't mean they have to change the ending. Hopefully they'll have to choke on their lies and pay a fine of some sort, but nobody can force them to change an already-released product.

Time to throw my two cents in, The biggest reasons for the ME3 ending to suck for me are 1: There is no point to your actions, regardless of what you do during the 3 games, you will always land on earth, always run to the beam, always end up on the citidal, always 'win' 2: You don't actually 'win' the war because no matter which option you choose, the relays become inaccessible and the reset button has been hit, what the reapers were aiming to do anyway. And finally we come onto point 3: The ending is artistic, to a series of games which are considered heavily story based, resulting in a horrible shift of tone in the game.

P.S: Captchas telling me to change myself, my clothes don't smell that ba.... oh god this shirt needs washing...

drh1975:
Could we find something else to talk about?
And where was all of this fanboy rage when EA decided to release some half-assed motion comic instead of the first Mass Effect on the PS3? Nobody complained about that, but they won't shut the hell up about the ending of ME3.

That was because the first mass effect was also developed by MS game studios, Now EA are powerful but I doubt they'd be able to get MS to release one of there games on a rival console

dogstile:
If this works, I also want to sue the makers of Dead Island for saying it was local co-op when it isn't. Dicks. Wouldn't have brought that otherwise.

That's actually pretty definitive. While saying your choices matter and then having 1 choice at the end be the only one that determines your ending is one thing, saying a game has local co-op when it clearly doesn't is about as blatant as you can get.

BiscuitTrouser:

Except you are equating criticism with attempting suing for false advertising and customers saying that they are entitled to better and that EA MUST PROVIDE IT.

I wasn't aware that anyone was suing for false advertising. I would love to see any source at all you have on this. This story certainly isn't about a lawsuit against them for false advertising.

Also I didn't equate anything to criticism, I was merely talking about criticism. Please highlight anywhere in my post where I even implied that suing them was equal to criticism.

Sometimes customers do feel they are entitled to better, and generally speaking businesses can decide for themselves whether they value their business enough to satisfy them. I've had problems at restaurants before, sometimes I don't even need to say a word before they have decided to pay for it or reimburse in some way. It's just business.

BiscuitTrouser:

The game said you take choices that pick an ending. Sure its shit but it still happens. It isnt false advertising. And you know what its GOOD that we critisize. No ones saying its wrong to critisize and thats a total strawman, so much for critical thinking that straw doesnt boast many neurones does it?.

Before the game came out they clearly made some statements that do not fit with what I have heard the game delivers. Whether that qualifies as false advertising or not is not for you or I to decide, but rather people like the Better Business Bureau or the courts.

No one is saying it is wrong to criticise? First of all, I don't remember addressing anyone in particular, so how can you even claim for certain that I was talking about anyone here directly? Maybe I'm just posting my personal feelings on the matter with regards to things I have personally seen. But hey, feel free to prove to me that no where in my life experience I have ever seen someone crush or discourage legitimate criticism over this game and I will totally cop to the accusations of strawman.

That last sentence didn't exactly make sense to me...

BiscuitTrouser:

If i buy the last book in the trilogy of my favourite books, (this happened with the eregon series) and its complete shit i can do the following things.

1. Give it a fair and bad review because it wasnt good online, discourage friends from reading it.
2. Not buy from that author again.

I cant return it. I cant demand a different ending. I cant MAKE the author make a story that I want. You cant. You just cant. You purchased a product, agreed with the buyer that youd get it based on: Previous work that only tangentally told us about the quality of this work and a promise in a teaser that was technically correct.

Your analogy is flawed but I'm sure you know that. Few analogies are ever perfect. Anyways, fans of the book could theoretically call for a new ending to be written, and under similar situations as ME3 they could even be seen to have a legitimate cause. I mean BioWare didn't get sufficient time to do an ending like they really wanted to do.

EA pushed them to released the game, and so they were forced to compromise their own vision by rushing some of the last parts of the game. It's well documented that they had to actually delay some voice recording sessions, for instance Sheen's, because they didn't have an ending finalised until very late in development. Also BioWare sure was quick to announce an update to help flesh out their ending, which they are more than willing to do.

In other words if anyone compromised BioWare's artistic vision here it was EA, because they were more worried about their bottom line in whatever quarter than allowing ME3 to be realised to the best of BioWare's ability. I'm sure if an author felt like they had been rushed and didn't do their ending justice they might also be willing to rewrite or clarify some parts of their ending.

I know this will be hard for you to admit as being reasonable, because it's hard to ever be wrong especially on the internet, so I understand if you need to be difficult in response.

BiscuitTrouser:

I didnt pre order. I waited. I saw that its apparently crap. And i havnt bought it because im voting with my wallet and not by complaining (because companies totally take you super cerial if you buy their stuff and THEN say they need to change while continuing to buy their stuff).

I imagine you bought it. Whos feeding the companies now?

Actually I didn't buy it. You know what they say, assumptions make an 'ass' out of 'u' and your 'mptions'

blackdwarf:
i know i'm talking about different fanbases here and i know that the fans of ME are bigger in numbers, but why do i only hear complaining on ME3 when SFxTK did exactly the same and in my opinion much worse. they promised a feature, that would give you the ability to play with a friend on the couch the game co-op, what happened? it was only available on the ps3 version and there will be no patch to put it on the xbox 360 version or the pc version, that still has to come out. not getting a promised feature is in my eyes much worse then not getting a a promised fulfilled they make everything and does not ever really happen. after all, whatever you do, you are doing the same stuff as everyone else with sometimes a character switched or some different dialogue, never you are really playing different events.

with that out off the way, what do people hope that will happen now? you are already getting the extended cut DLC and hopefully they have listened for there next game. i do understand why people are frustrated with what happened, but some people are really taking it far.

Do not forget having a lot of the DLC characters already on the disc.

Taerdin:

I wasn't aware that anyone was suing for false advertising. I would love to see any source at all you have on this. This story certainly isn't about a lawsuit against them for false advertising.

Also I didn't equate anything to criticism, I was merely talking about criticism. Please highlight anywhere in my post where I even implied that suing them was equal to criticism.

Sometimes customers do feel they are entitled to better, and generally speaking businesses can decide for themselves whether they value their business enough to satisfy them. I've had problems at restaurants before, sometimes I don't even need to say a word before they have decided to pay for it or reimburse in some way. It's just business.

Before the game came out they clearly made some statements that do not fit with what I have heard the game delivers. Whether that qualifies as false advertising or not is not for you or I to decide, but rather people like the Better Business Bureau or the courts.

No one is saying it is wrong to criticise? First of all, I don't remember addressing anyone in particular, so how can you even claim for certain that I was talking about anyone here directly? Maybe I'm just posting my personal feelings on the matter with regards to things I have personally seen. But hey, feel free to prove to me that no where in my life experience I have ever seen someone crush or discourage legitimate criticism over this game and I will totally cop to the accusations of strawman.

Your analogy is flawed but I'm sure you know that. Few analogies are ever perfect. Anyways, fans of the book could theoretically call for a new ending to be written, and under similar situations as ME3 they could even be seen to have a legitimate cause. I mean BioWare didn't get sufficient time to do an ending like they really wanted to do.

EA pushed them to released the game, and so they were forced to compromise their own vision by rushing some of the last parts of the game. It's well documented that they had to actually delay some voice recording sessions, for instance Sheen's, because they didn't have an ending finalised until very late in development. Also BioWare sure was quick to announce an update to help flesh out their ending, which they are more than willing to do.

In other words if anyone compromised BioWare's artistic vision here it was EA, because they were more worried about their bottom line in whatever quarter than allowing ME3 to be realised to the best of BioWare's ability. I'm sure if an author felt like they had been rushed and didn't do their ending justice they might also be willing to rewrite or clarify some parts of their ending.

I know this will be hard for you to admit as being reasonable, because it's hard to ever be wrong especially on the internet, so I understand if you need to be difficult in response.

I was totally in error in the lawsuit front. I apologise.

You make some good points. Refering to your earlier post it was heavily implied that by opposing the whole "retake" mass effect scene you are opposing our right to critisize a medium. No one on this thread has done so, id like you to share any personal experience you have with anyone ever who told you it is not ok to critisize a medium under any circumstance. Do share.

Now in regard to EA forcing a rushed game and the DEVELOPERS being unhappy with the ending. Thats a different matter. If the creators of a piece of work dont like it and want to change it thats absolutely fine. The line is drawn when fans begin "demanding" changes or acting as if they own the intellectual property. If i made a series of paintings and everyone hated the last one BUT i liked it id keep it the way it was and no amount of "retaking" would be able to, or should be able to force me to do otherwise. Those who have legitimate issues with the ending have every right to complain, to let bioware know they created a substandard experience but i dont feel they have any right to "retake" something that was never theirs.

If bioware feel their work needs changing and want to change it thne they should be able to. I would support such an action fully. I mean i thought the ending of eregon was the biggest tonne of shit ive ever read. Other fans agree. You think a retake eregon movement would be reasonable?

Everyone in this thread who doesnt like retake posts about people being whiney for demanding changes. It was even in critical miss, its a common opinion.

You say that apparently "critisizing the game makes people whiney" according to "some people" who are undefined.

I linked two and two and it seemed to me as if you were equating critisizm with the demand for changes. But if such an experience came from outside the thread that was my mistake. I can only draw on what im seeing in the context of where you posted it.

I think Bioware should change the ending, id buy it then, applying pressure for quality with my wallet is just business. Really basic business. My issue is with people who think they MUST change it for them after they buy it without full knowlegde of what they are going to get. When you pre order you take a risk. Its a pretty obvious risk and if it doesnt work out for you tough luck. If a businessman said "pay to have whats in this box, the last 2 boxes have been awesome, give me money then you can open the box" and you paid for the box and didnt like it how is that anyones fault but yours. You didnt buy it of course but i have little pity for those that preordered and got something they didnt expect.

I also have little pity for those that KNEW the ending was bad, got it anyway, then complained about the ending being bad. Dont buy a product if its apparently iredeemably bad.

This thread provides all kinds of insights on the Escapist frequenters. We're actually having a conversation about whether BioWare deserve a negative outcome for lying. Finally, dishonesty is on its way out as a negative trait.

Andy Chalk:
(image)

That was truly illuminating.

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