Judge Recommends Banning Xbox Imports to the US

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This is fun to watch. Would Microsoft have to alter the 360 dramatically if the ban was made in effect in North America?

Dryk:
"You can't stop us from doing what we like, it's bad for the consumer"
<judge cocks eyebrow>
"Do you actually think I'm going to fall for that?"

Also now that this is over does that mean that they can let the German injunction go through?

Just because Microsoft fucked up doesn't mean we should all suffer the fallout.

They've started paying 33 cents to Motorolla per unit. Surely just add a big cash payout on top of that, and everybody wins, without taking xbox away.

RicoADF:

Baresark:

FEichinger:

snip

IP's protect consumers by not allowing cheap knockoffs to be sold to a consumer that bear the name of the original creation. Inhibiting the production of a device does not protect consumers at all in this case. Especially since, from a consumer perspective, MS is not laying claim to the creation of a device as much as they are simply using a device. It's one of those catch 22's of IP laws. In this case it's not in the consumers interest for the device to not be sold. It's probably one of the few times MS and consumer values are in perfect alignment. Furthermore, Motorola's consumers are not harmed by the use of the Xbox360. People are not choosing to pick either the Motorola or MS version of a product.

Really, the problems is that no one should be trying to inhibit sales or productions of a device. That will only serve to harm the consumer, create artificial shortages, and drive prices up. Everyone should just learn to be adults about this kind of thing. MS should admit their shortcomings and offer Motorola money for the use of their IP. Motorola in turn should not be trying to force MS to stop production and sales of Xbox360's.

So you think that because the Xbox is popular and loved then MS should be allowed to break the law? I don't care how you spin it, the court has determined that they used the codec illegally and now their crying fowl for being caught out and punished for it. The IP laws are there for a reason, and while they can be anoying at times this is an example of why they are there, to stop a big company like MS from making money off someone elses work (Motorola). That boys and girls, is called stealing.

I have never said that is my position at all. My position is that this is not an action that protects any consumers, but in facts can harm the consumers of potentially both companies. My official position is that MS should pay them money for use of their product, and in turn Motorola should stop trying to mess with MS ability to produce and distribute their game system.

Also, while the judge has given his recommendation, what no one seems to realize is that a judge does not make laws. He is confined by the letter of the laws he passes judgement on. So, it is this judges opinion that the people who determine these things should carry out a certain action. He is not the deciding factor on this. The reason I said he and so many of his ilk are "retarded" is because judges often times confuse a moral issue for a legal one. In this case, the Judge has clearly looked at this case with blinders on and is looking at this in the narrowest possible way.

Also, for the record, I do not even own a 360. And if I did, this wouldn't affect me at all. But as a potential future purchaser of an Xbox360 (though it's not very likely), it benefits me to have this available to me. I of course want to see things taken care of properly though. I want Motorola to get what they need in this, which is of course some kind of monetary reparation. I also would hate to see MS inhibited from distributing their products because of this. And contrary to what people like to believe, this case has not been decided yet. A judge gave his recommendation is all.

One thing that drives me nuts about these forums is that people seem to think what they read here is definitive. I almost feel like this isn't even a worthwhile update since it resolves nothing. We know from previous articles that this judge already sides with Motorola.

/end rant

Binnsyboy:

Dryk:
"You can't stop us from doing what we like, it's bad for the consumer"
<judge cocks eyebrow>
"Do you actually think I'm going to fall for that?"

Also now that this is over does that mean that they can let the German injunction go through?

Just because Microsoft fucked up doesn't mean we should all suffer the fallout.

They've started paying 33 cents to Motorolla per unit. Surely just add a big cash payout on top of that, and everybody wins, without taking xbox away.

Obviously 33 cent per unit is not enough for Motorolla. Fair enough considering the amount of units sold already and the massive decline in sales over the last few years. I figure the payment will come before the consumer is too badly affected.

Is anyone elso doubtful that MS have developed new codecs for their next gen console?

Nothing surprises me with M$. Did we forget how M$ started? Theft is one of they're biggest main pillars that keeps it afloat.

Oh, no
How will I live with this tragedy
Wait a minute- I'm one of the glorious PC master race, so it doesn't affect me
A good day to be playing PC :D

mark my words this is gonna come down to who has more money and lets face it MS has more. I give this a year maybe two before motorola settles because the bad press will make them lose stock (and yes this would be considered bad press for them and for MS but hey MS always has bad press)

And as per usual, outdated copyright laws are causing an unprecedented amount of bullshit and friction between huge companies.

blackrave:
glorious PC master race

Just...No.

Seriously i'm sick of seeing that. There is no "Master Race" You are Human. You are of the Human Race. You are simply a person from a group of people that play games on PC. Not a new fucking species.

OT: Won't happen. Just saying.

I have been reading some peoples comments, and it looks like a Patent is like Copyright, but for technology and doesn't last very long. (don't know what they are, don't care, just what i have read) However Microsoft didn't completely copy it, it just does the same thing? (what i read, don't burn me down) so...the problem is?

And i have been seeing on another thread, that it is Motorola who are in the wrong, and judging by the people who think Motorola is in the wrong, and the people who think MS are in the wrong, im inclined to agree. Because it's people like the one i quoted who are against MS (IE PC gamers, people who hate MS etc etc)

Again...Won't happen.

Baresark:
*Snip quotes to save space*

I have never said that is my position at all. My position is that this is not an action that protects any consumers, but in facts can harm the consumers of potentially both companies. My official position is that MS should pay them money for use of their product, and in turn Motorola should stop trying to mess with MS ability to produce and distribute their game system.

Also, while the judge has given his recommendation, what no one seems to realize is that a judge does not make laws. He is confined by the letter of the laws he passes judgement on. So, it is this judges opinion that the people who determine these things should carry out a certain action. He is not the deciding factor on this. The reason I said he and so many of his ilk are "retarded" is because judges often times confuse a moral issue for a legal one. In this case, the Judge has clearly looked at this case with blinders on and is looking at this in the narrowest possible way.

Also, for the record, I do not even own a 360. And if I did, this wouldn't affect me at all. But as a potential future purchaser of an Xbox360 (though it's not very likely), it benefits me to have this available to me. I of course want to see things taken care of properly though. I want Motorola to get what they need in this, which is of course some kind of monetary reparation. I also would hate to see MS inhibited from distributing their products because of this. And contrary to what people like to believe, this case has not been decided yet. A judge gave his recommendation is all.

One thing that drives me nuts about these forums is that people seem to think what they read here is definitive. I almost feel like this isn't even a worthwhile update since it resolves nothing. We know from previous articles that this judge already sides with Motorola.

/end rant

The idea would be to protect the IP Motorola owns, thats not meant to protect consumers, its meant to protect investers/inventors. As Nuke_em_05 says on page 1, IP is there to protect investors money so people will develop new things knowing they can make their investment back.

Fair enough if it's just a recommendation, however as I said if their found to be breaching the IP law then that recommendation should be followed through as I said, its standard proceedure to stop the sale of offending items until they companies can rectify the problem.

I didn't assume you had a 360 or were a fanboy, just replying to what you said and my opinion on the matter, doesn't bother me how this turns out.

If the judge already sides with Motorola, then there may be a reason for that (that MS did screw up).

I am personally a PS3 user, but I believe this is a stupid decision as that a good chunk of profit comes from Xbox 360 sales, Xbox Live memberships and such.

blackrave:
Oh, no
How will I live with this tragedy
Wait a minute- I'm one of the glorious PC master race, so it doesn't affect me
A good day to be playing PC :D

PC, Xbox, PS3, it's all the same. It's just what you prefer.

Common Obama!! Here's your chance to actually do something!!!

DVS BSTrD:
image
Oh the irony, a console that bricks moders being banned for not respecting Intellectual property.

It doesnt brick modders. It can brick them they do have the technology. But they currently just cut them off from Xbox Live.

Funny the captcha is cherry on top

So if my xbox red rings I'm royally fucked?

Captcha: beats me

You're no help!

KeyMaster45:
I groan every time I hear "intellectual property" because it's usually followed up by some corporate asshattery and further evidence that copyright laws are just freaking broken.

I was just about to type something along those lines.

In fact, my response was going to be: How can they call it protection of "intellectual property" when there's almost no intellect in, or behind the creation of, said property?

arc1991:

Just...No.

Seriously i'm sick of seeing that. There is no "Master Race" You are Human. You are of the Human Race. You are simply a person from a group of people that play games on PC. Not a new fucking species.

OT: Won't happen. Just saying.

I have been reading some peoples comments, and it looks like a Patent is like Copyright, but for technology and doesn't last very long. (don't know what they are, don't care, just what i have read) However Microsoft didn't completely copy it, it just does the same thing? (what i read, don't burn me down) so...the problem is?

And i have been seeing on another thread, that it is Motorola who are in the wrong, and judging by the people who think Motorola is in the wrong, and the people who think MS are in the wrong, im inclined to agree. Because it's people like the one i quoted who are against MS (IE PC gamers, people who hate MS etc etc)

Again...Won't happen.

Ok, time to get serious
Sorry, I forgot to put quotes around "glorious PC master race"
(it is from ZP first Witcher review- I found hilarious how Yahtzee described difference between PC and console gamers in both reviews of Witcher, so I usually quote him there)
I'm not against console gaming. I'm against developers who make shitty console ports on PC (controls, graphics, etc.)
As for Microsoft, my argument is against console exclusives
I understand not wanting to make games for PS3, but most gaming PCs run on Windows and last time I checked it had MS logo on it, so WTF?
Yes, timed exclusives are ok, but never releasing game on PC is loosing money

Regarding patents
As far as I remember patents had 10-15 years time limitation, after that anyone can use them.

PlatinumRenegade:
PC, Xbox, PS3, it's all the same. It's just what you prefer.

You're mostly right
Consoles are just limited computers
But I don't like software and hardware limitations (and there is this whole argument of "owning" a console), so I prefer PC

Ehmmm, did no-one read further and notice that not only the Xbox360 is affected but also Windows 7?! At least in Germany. Appearently due to the same codec infingements. Might not make a whole lot of difference with windows 8 coming out soon, But still..

Baresark:

FEichinger:

Baresark:
Haha, that judge is retarded. They all are. IP is more important than consumer rights... WRONG! IP's exist to protect the consumer as much as they do the person who came up with an idea. I mean, lets face facts though, Microsoft is making that argument for them and not the consumer. If you are familiar with MS outside the realm of Xbox systems, you know this already. Enforcing this restriction would only increase the cost of the system. As others have said, better get ready for the new Xbox.

M$ infringed Motorola's patent, thus IP. So, the consumers, whose rights are to be "protected" by the IP - as per your logic - are Motorola's consumers, not Microsoft's ... Therefore, the judge's reasoning of Motorola's IP being more important than Microsoft's consumers is perfectly valid.

IP's protect consumers by not allowing cheap knockoffs to be sold to a consumer that bear the name of the original creation. Inhibiting the production of a device does not protect consumers at all in this case. Especially since, from a consumer perspective, MS is not laying claim to the creation of a device as much as they are simply using a device. It's one of those catch 22's of IP laws. In this case it's not in the consumers interest for the device to not be sold. It's probably one of the few times MS and consumer values are in perfect alignment. Furthermore, Motorola's consumers are not harmed by the use of the Xbox360. People are not choosing to pick either the Motorola or MS version of a product.

Really, the problems is that no one should be trying to inhibit sales or productions of a device. That will only serve to harm the consumer, create artificial shortages, and drive prices up. Everyone should just learn to be adults about this kind of thing. MS should admit their shortcomings and offer Motorola money for the use of their IP. Motorola in turn should not be trying to force MS to stop production and sales of Xbox360's.

What lunacy is this? Logic? In my IP laws? Get out of here! Any person on the internet knows that IP laws follow no logic!

Baresark:
Haha, that judge is retarded. They all are. IP is more important than consumer rights... WRONG! IP's exist to protect the consumer as much as they do the person who came up with an idea. I mean, lets face facts though, Microsoft is making that argument for them and not the consumer. If you are familiar with MS outside the realm of Xbox systems, you know this already. Enforcing this restriction would only increase the cost of the system. As others have said, better get ready for the new Xbox.

Hes not wrong. Protecting consumer from Xbox is more important than IP.

Noble_Lance:
If Microsoft broke the law with those patents they should be punished for it no matter how much it affects the gamers. Though FEichinger that would be nice for the distribution, you would think we could lower those price tags a bit more on the transportation costs.

no, Microsoft needs to be punished more than this.

Microsoft knew full well they were infringing on Motorola's copyrights and knowingly infringed on those copyrights.

They need to be punished to the same extreme limit of the law that regular people have been punished for a long while now.

Im thinking about $256,000 in damages per console made since the 360's launch, that seems more than reasonable seeing how a single song can run about $15,000 if it infringes on IP of an artist.

Microsoft is no better than the Pirates it claims to fight.

M$

I think it's that I started using computers back in the late 70's, but every time I see this, I think "M String". As for the rest, the only console I ever owned was the Colecovision, Waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day. Ever since I got my first new computer in 1991, I have been one of the "Glorious PC Gaming Master Race". And I own a Macintosh (in fact, all my computers have been Macintoshes). So... Microshaft doesn't necessarily get any love from me.

FEichinger:
[Microsoft] infringed Motorola's patent, thus IP. So, the consumers, whose rights are to be "protected" by the IP - as per your logic - are Motorola's consumers, not Microsoft's ... Therefore, the judge's reasoning of Motorola's IP being more important than Microsoft's consumers is perfectly valid.

Except that Motorola's customers aren't affected one way or another by Microsoft's infringement. Their ability to use Motorola technology related to those patents is not in any way infringed. (And that's assuming Motorola even uses those patents and isn't being a patent troll.) The parties "harmed" are Motorola's officers and shareholders.

Baresark:
Haha, that judge is retarded. They all are. IP is more important than consumer rights... WRONG! IP's exist to protect the consumer as much as they do the person who came up with an idea.

Can you please provide a citation for that? That's the first I've ever heard that IP laws exist to protect anyone other than the content creator, their heirs or assigns. At least not in the US.

Pretty Much Everyone in This Thread:
IP laws in the US are stupid.

Film at 11.

LostintheWick:

RicoADF:

Baresark:

IP's protect consumers by not allowing cheap knockoffs to be sold to a consumer that bear the name of the original creation. Inhibiting the production of a device does not protect consumers at all in this case. Especially since, from a consumer perspective, MS is not laying claim to the creation of a device as much as they are simply using a device. It's one of those catch 22's of IP laws. In this case it's not in the consumers interest for the device to not be sold. It's probably one of the few times MS and consumer values are in perfect alignment. Furthermore, Motorola's consumers are not harmed by the use of the Xbox360. People are not choosing to pick either the Motorola or MS version of a product.

Really, the problems is that no one should be trying to inhibit sales or productions of a device. That will only serve to harm the consumer, create artificial shortages, and drive prices up. Everyone should just learn to be adults about this kind of thing. MS should admit their shortcomings and offer Motorola money for the use of their IP. Motorola in turn should not be trying to force MS to stop production and sales of Xbox360's.

So you think that because the Xbox is popular and loved then MS should be allowed to break the law? I don't care how you spin it, the court has determined that they used the codec illegally and now their crying fowl for being caught out and punished for it. The IP laws are there for a reason, and while they can be anoying at times this is an example of why they are there, to stop a big company like MS from making money off someone elses work (Motorola). That boys and girls, is called stealing.

Gotta jump in here: I think what is being said is that stopping the sales of the console is unnecessary. There are better ways of setting this straight and making things right. Ways that wont hurt the consumer.

Cause the tech industry is known for their consumer friendly practices. Especially the game industry.

From a Sony fanboy: I hope this gets overturned because that is such bullshit.

Nuke_em_05:
It's funny how Microsoft is against copyright infringement when it comes to games, but has been the #1 example of that in the computer tech industry since, well, there has been a "computer tech" industry.

It doesn't make Microsoft or "pirates" "right", it's just funny.

For those who think IP/copyright/patents etc are about the consumer: nope. In this case, it is about: Motorola spent money, who knows how much, to research and develop the tech behind these components. IP gives them the right to sell that tech exclusively so they can recover the cost of developing it; not just the cost of units of production. When Microsoft uses that tech, without having incurred the cost of developing it, and without licensing it from Motorola, they are cheating Motorola out of recovering the cost of developing that tech.

The idea behind it is to keep innovation going. What incentive would developers have to spend resources on developing new tech if they couldn't recover that cost? If someone could just use that tech as soon as it was developed without compensating the original developer, they couldn't recover that cost. Hence, IP law.

Actually Motorola Mobility purchased the patents from Apple, who purchased them from a small tech consortium for a small fee, then MM spent tons of money backing it in the format wars for video codec technology, so that one day they could control what they deem to be a "reasonable price" for anyone who's into any sort of professional video recording or distribution.

This isn't about innovation, it's a war that has been going on forever. It's actually really really bad for innovation and consumers. Just ask Sony. They've lost the format wars more than anyone else has ever participated (hilariously backing superior formats).

Motorola is owned by Google. Soon as those patents came up for renegotiation Google wanted to stick it to Microsoft as hard as they could.

subtlefuge:

Nuke_em_05:
It's funny how Microsoft is against copyright infringement when it comes to games, but has been the #1 example of that in the computer tech industry since, well, there has been a "computer tech" industry.

It doesn't make Microsoft or "pirates" "right", it's just funny.

For those who think IP/copyright/patents etc are about the consumer: nope. In this case, it is about: Motorola spent money, who knows how much, to research and develop the tech behind these components. IP gives them the right to sell that tech exclusively so they can recover the cost of developing it; not just the cost of units of production. When Microsoft uses that tech, without having incurred the cost of developing it, and without licensing it from Motorola, they are cheating Motorola out of recovering the cost of developing that tech.

The idea behind it is to keep innovation going. What incentive would developers have to spend resources on developing new tech if they couldn't recover that cost? If someone could just use that tech as soon as it was developed without compensating the original developer, they couldn't recover that cost. Hence, IP law.

Actually Motorola Mobility purchased the patents from Apple, who purchased them from a small tech consortium for a small fee, then MM spent tons of money backing it in the format wars for video codec technology, so that one day they could control what they deem to be a "reasonable price" for anyone who's into any sort of professional video recording or distribution.

This isn't about innovation, it's a war that has been going on forever. It's actually really really bad for innovation and consumers. Just ask Sony. They've lost the format wars more than anyone else has ever participated (hilariously backing superior formats).

Exactly, ideas don't belong to individuals, they belong to society. Every idea is an evolution; a logical next step in the growth of society as a whole.

IP was only supposed to protect development costs so that developing new ideas is just as viable as copying or adapting existing ones. The original point was to encourage growth but instead they have been twisted to the purpose of stifling innovation and maintaining the status quo.

How much does Microsoft owe to Sony and Nintendo for paving the way for the Xbox? Should we resurrect Atari and give them the entire console market because they were the first to put games into the home(may not even be the first just as far as I can remember)?

An proper IP law should protect innovators and investors just long enough for them to make back their investment plus a little extra. Then it is up to them to keep coming up with better ideas and keep moving forward. Instead they just lobby congress to lengthen their patents and stifle the innovations of everyone else.

subtlefuge:

Okay, so they still bought it. Motorola spent resources (solely money in this case), for the right to use and distribute it; with the intent of licensing it to recover that cost. Microsoft did not.

IP law is about innovation. Even if this particular case is a grudge match. 1. It stops people from just copying each other instead of trying something different. 2. In the event where Motorola holds the screws to Microsoft with it, Microsoft will have incentive to come up with a better product on their own.

It is also very much about money. Whether your goal is to produce tech to make money, or make money to produce tech, you still need money. Without protection, like IP, to make that money back, there is very low incentive for innovation. Why spend money to try new things if you can't make that money back? How can you spend money on the next thing if you threw it all at a project that went nowhere, or a project that went well, but then everyone copied and you didn't make one cent off of it?

All of them are about money, one way or another. Apple, Motorola, Microsoft, Sony, Google. Whether it they consider it a means or an end, they need it. To believe that any one of them is less or more "corrupt" or "noble" is irrelevant.

Yeah, poor Sony. The Walkman, 3.5" floppy disks, CDs, DATs, Hi8, miniDV, DVD (collaborative), Digital8, HDV (with JVC), and... oh yeah, Blu-Ray (with a little help from their friends). They just can't catch a break.

Wait wait wait...does this affect the games they can sell or just the hardware?

Bloodysoldier:
Nothing surprises me with M$. Did we forget how M$ started? Theft is one of they're biggest main pillars that keeps it afloat.

Because Microsoft (seriously, drop the damn dollar sign thing, it's not clever and it makes you look like a pompous ass) are, of course, the only company who have ever used shady tactics in business.

Irridium:
Microsoft is saying something is bad for consumers.

Hilarious.

I agree. Microsoft is the epitome of screwing the consumer for what they themselves want. The entire Xbox is just an advertisement viewing screen.

Wow, that's quite the Taliban on Alamo the 360's. To think this happened to Microsoft, the USA's most precious pearl, harbor of countless successful products is more than just a Malcolm Little surprising. If things continue liKKKe this, Microsoft may have to embark on a Trail of Tears, but then again, Microsoft is hardly a Little Boy (more of a Fat Man) in the business. Forgive me for sounding like My Lai-ttle Pony, but the future still looks bright and white, power outages probably still being the biggest concern to Microsoft. All these copyright infringement cases seem like comparing Abu Ghraibs and Agent Oranges to me anyway.

Nuke_em_05:

subtlefuge:

Okay, so they still bought it. Motorola spent resources (solely money in this case), for the right to use and distribute it; with the intent of licensing it to recover that cost. Microsoft did not.

IP law is about innovation. Even if this particular case is a grudge match. 1. It stops people from just copying each other instead of trying something different. 2. In the event where Motorola holds the screws to Microsoft with it, Microsoft will have incentive to come up with a better product on their own.

It is also very much about money. Whether your goal is to produce tech to make money, or make money to produce tech, you still need money. Without protection, like IP, to make that money back, there is very low incentive for innovation. Why spend money to try new things if you can't make that money back? How can you spend money on the next thing if you threw it all at a project that went nowhere, or a project that went well, but then everyone copied and you didn't make one cent off of it?

All of them are about money, one way or another. Apple, Motorola, Microsoft, Sony, Google. Whether it they consider it a means or an end, they need it. To believe that any one of them is less or more "corrupt" or "noble" is irrelevant.

Yeah, poor Sony. The Walkman, 3.5" floppy disks, CDs, DATs, Hi8, miniDV, DVD (collaborative), Digital8, HDV (with JVC), and... oh yeah, Blu-Ray (with a little help from their friends). They just can't catch a break.

Oh I definitely think that everyone is corrupt. I just think that the idea behind this specific instance is infinitely more corrupt than most. Formats and compatibility issues kill competition, which is bad for everyone. In this case, Microsoft had the awful choice of paying Motorola's outrageous royalties, leaving out features, or ignoring the problem and hoping that nobody noticed.

They may have chosen the worst of the options, but it's not like the system gave them great ones to begin with. It ultimately has to do with how stupid it is that format patents stay around until it's time for the next format to come out, ensuring a monopoly for whoever wins.

Fuck. You. Microsoft.

I bought a new 360 every time my current one broke (so far going on 4 replacements since 2005; that's a system failure every 2 years). Despite this, I remained loyal.

I cursed underneath my breath when you told me Gold passes were getting a price boost from 50$ to $60 for no fucking earthly reason. But I ponied up the extra $10 in good faith.

I gritted my teeth when you turned the dashboard into a generic, non-customizable grey-and-white void with Mii ripoffs, shitty navigation and a plethora of splash ads. But I stuck around.

I felt my blood pressure rise when I learned that now, to this very day, I still need to be online to PLAY THE ARCADE GAMES I PAID FOR and WATCH THE MOVIES I BOUGHT IN THE VIDEO MARKETPLACE. The best part is I have to load the Zune applet to watch videos on my hard drive... That's right. I have to download, install and load software for a media player that is no longer even manufactured anymore, just so I can view things I bought with MS points. Bravo.

Not a single credit card I've owned ever works with Xbox Live's billing system. I've used a Mastercard, a Visa and a Discover... all of them return the same error when I hit Purchase. I've checked with my credit companies all three times and none of them see a problem. I've called Live support and even they don't know what the fuck is wrong with the checkout. It simply does not accept my money. If I want something and it doesn't have a redeem code or cost MS points, I am screwed.

There are never any sales or freebies on Xbox Live. Okay, I take that back. The Guild was free on the video marketplace. But only because they got Sprint to sponsor them. Oh, and one day they let people download Undertow for free. This was all the way back in 2010.

And now...

Now when these dirtbags are caught up in a legal dispute with another company and have no alibi, they want to use their customers as a sympathy shield?

Fuck that.

I'm pawning my Xbox 360 right now. Assuming it's still worth anything.

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