Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 . . . 35 NEXT | |
Well
Well, seeing as how the gaming community at large still fails to see this as a problem, there needs to be more exposure of the issue before we can break the gender barriers in videogames. I seem to remember Planet Earth and an Inconvenient Truth bringing vastly needed attention to the natural world we are destroying, or the Thin Blue Line getting a guy saved from death row. sometimes exposure on an issue is needed before breakthroughs are made, because if you seriously expect some indie kickstarter projects to just suddenly make everyone go "hey, women can be treated better in games overall can't they?", then you clearly haven't been seeing all the money and exposure that goes into making a game a hit with influence. But anyway, those misogynistic commenters don't deserve this amount of attention, but they are still unworthy of enjoying a great game anymore. | |
No I'm not. | |
or...you know they know that shit usually isnt worth the time it takes to read | |
I agree.... thank god its mostly an online thing | |
My bad. I actually wasn't suggesting you were doing it but thats what it means. People doesn't go around giving adresses of rapists on their newspaper articles for a reason. | |
I'm sort of the mentality that if you spew hate you don't deserve to be anonymous. That's the sort of shit that let the KKK get away with terrorism for years in the south. Now this guy is probably just an internet troll, so his bullshit is a combination of immaturity and anonymity, rather than actual bigotry (or so I would imagine). Anonymity isn't a right however, it's a privilege and a responsibility. You can't be civil, you lose your anonymity. Have fun.
Hardly the same thing, it's just the guys Youtube ID. Which he himself posted, next to his comment, all on his own. | |
Holy crap, look out he's targeting you too! Every time he quotes you they can go back to your post and find your Escapist profile right next to your comment =O But less sarcastically, they can't do anything horrible to him except disapprove and know who should be shunned. Social repercussions are exactly what are warranted and that's all there is to it. They could scroll through the video in question and find despicable comments on their own anyway, it's not as if he's giving out info that was hidden. | |
Am I the only one that went back 61 pages of comments and found that 99% of comments are actually complaining about the comments section being full of sexist comments | |
I disagree. I think that if you want to actually change opinions, you just make the games. Vids are nice and all, but only theoretical. They can certainly explain the issues or suggest solutions, but a solid product is what will help. An actual game not only proves that it can be done, but there are people out there that actually want to do this rather than to simply talk about it. It gives more credibility, showing both initiative and ability, something that vids don't, especially since (as mentioned before) there is literally an ocean of vids like this. What about this documentary, for example, is going to make it stand out amongst the numerous other vids like it? At least a game is something different than what we're used to (in regards to discussing the issue). Also, obviously opinions won't change with just one game, and it shouldn't. The best way to make positive portrayals of any group isn't to point it out, but to make it as subtle as it can be, so it is seen simply as a "standard practice" rather than a unique or extreme "practice", something which can only be accomplished by many games (something that can be done, for example, through kickstarter, allowing funding for games that will have more of an impact than a documentary on the issue we've most likely seen before because it is the same documentary we have seen before) | |
I wonder why it is that I see so many people complaining about "Hey why don't they do it for other groups too!?", but I don't see them taking the time they waste complaining to actually go and do it themselves. Why exactly should she have to do it for men too? Could, yes. But why all the complaining? It helps absolutely nothing at all and she is under no obligation to work for every single group that has problems. | |
*sigh* once again the scum of the gaming community comes out in full force... I'm not going to take sides here other than the people threatening her are retarded lowlives with nothing better to do than try to grow a larger e-penis... But, she is right and wrong... Sure, there is sexualisation of women and stereotypes that most female characters abide by... Becoming nothing more than eye-candy or "a reason to beat the bad guy" But, most people already know this.... Things like this have been said before, time and time again... Will this change anything? All it will do is make her a target for such previously mentioned dickbags who know nothing more than how to write in FULL CAPS LOCK!?!!!?!1 what she SHOULD be doing is making a video on said assholes and how they live through life without getting shot by the normal members of the gaming community... now THAT would at least give people to aim snipers at... | |
Eh... this is why we can't have nice things. | |
Just out of curiosity, what is she going to do with that extra cash? Just keep it? Charity? | |
what a waste of a large ammount of money for a vlog.. *reads comments* good on her and i hope she uses the comments on youtube to illustrate what its like | |
Word. Both of the "Stupid Shitty Kickstarter Documentaries" mentioned are transparently-clear attempts at manufacturing propaganda and shouldn't be considered as either objective nor as documentaries in their own right. | |
Wait, she wants people to give her money, so she can make youtube videos? Really? This is worse than the 3rd party Playstation Move guy wanting us to fund his game engine. Protip: Don't like how something is being portrayed in a movie or game? Make the damn movie or game yourself. Oh yeah, why do people care about youtube comments?? | |
Hey dude, just a quick tip, try reading the article before defending youtube commenters. Now then, are you insane? Do you seriously think that because you disagree with her position that people should be allowed to say this kind of stuff? | |
I still agree with what Buretsu said. Men in videogames suffer from stereotypes as much as women. It's not like there are no adult women in videogames who are not overly sexualised though: I would rather be associated with these six examples than having the choice between broad-shouldered, perfectly chiseled meatheads, scientists who would never get a job in any real science lab, fearful nerdy/geeky characters and Gordon Freeman. Actually, thinking about it, Gordon Freeman is OK as a representation for me. | |
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there. Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing. | |
I am chilled by the comments to be honest. I'm a female gamer and while I would not consider myself "called" to the feminist agenda (or at least the extreme bits of it, which have the loudest advocates though they may be a minority of the feminist crowd) I am well aware of the slant in the representation of my gender in my favorite entertainment medium. This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes. They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here). I've not been happy about this issue, but I've not seen a need to be ardently proactive about it either, because I feel that as the industry gains more audience equality the problem will correct itself. It did used to be that most players were guys. It makes some sense that they would be catered to as the primary audience and the consideration for female players wouldn't be a high priority (being that they were the minority). As things have begun to even out though, there is a disturbing trend for a certain group of players who are males lashing out at any female player who wants to recognize her values in what she plays. As if we are unwelcome. As if we don't deserve to be part of the community and feel comfortable in it as much as anyone else. This is particularly painful for me as someone who has always been part of the community from the days when it was very much a boys club and thought things would naturally improve and that the improvement would be welcomed. The thing is there to be studied and she wants to study it - I don't see the issue. This isn't a campaign to boycott games for being what they've been, it's a research project into what have they been, indeed, and where are they going. If we can't stand to be questioned about our history as a community we are not going to develop in a healthy direction. Maybe that is the crux of the problem though. There isn't a "game community" really. We aren't so much a real community as we are a group of people who enjoy a shared hobby and had in the past been forced to band together in defense of that hobby against scrutiny of a wider society. Now that issue is waning and our cohesion is waning with it perhaps. But I digress. What shocks me is the comments and the hate. I often convince myself that such things are outlying elements of a few people who would be that way no matter where they were or what they were doing. The more this issue comes up though the more I see that I really may not even want to be part of this "community" if that is what the sentiment of it is. So much hatred over simply pointing out that things have been unequal and the outright denial of the possibility that anything about the video games in question could ever be unequal... it just staggers me. | |
This, this, a thousands times this!!! I had just formulated my point in my head so that I felt confident enough that I could post it without every idiot under the escapist sun accusing me of supporting the douches in the article (which I obviously don't). When I watch this video and find it makes the exact same points I would have (even about the completely unrelated and currently irrelevant topic of bronies) with pictures and shit to boot! | |
If "we know," why do so many outright deny it and still more are so oblivious to it? | |
So you were going to knock down a bunch of strawmen before you saw he summed up those strawmen so perfectly for you? | |
You think thats unfair? I'll tell you whats unfair - fucking stereotyping against men. ALMOST EVERY FUCKING GAME has an action hero, he's always handsome and often smart or ripped, who's an ace shot or ace detective and f there's any girls to have he almost always gets them. It's fucking sickening, games should be about boring normal people and their boring normal lives and boring normal girls and boring normal cars and boring normal jobs. If I see another ripped male soldier or suave, swift talking hero I'm gonna have a fucking aneurysm. How dare people use the media as a form of escapism to depict things they like that are unrepresentative of real life. EDIT: but yeah those commenters mentioned in the article are scum, didn't think I'd need to say it... EDIT 2:
Think your mis-using the term straw-man there my friend, but if you're trying to imply we're ignoring the point of the article, I would argue that the point is so puerile it doesn't warrant reporting. Yeah some people can be cunts when given anonymity, shock horror, what of it? | |
That's a good question, and I think it's one for a more psychological debate. There are a lot of blatant truths that are constantly completely ignored. I wouldn't say people aren't oblivious to it. Gaming is still new, stories in games are newer. Back in Nintendo's first days of home console, you were just some guy saving a princess from a dragon. That was just about as complicated as shit got.
While his presentation of the subject is really bad on many levels, it raises a point. When does a documentary stop being informative, and start being propaganda? Also, calling something a strawman is neither a counter point nor an intelligent alternative point of view. It helps your case to explain why the argument is broken. | |
haven,t read the comments but I assume they say "DURR GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN DURRR" proving her correct on the other hand I don,t really see how woman are being portrayed badly by video games even sex symbols like Lara Craft can be seen as positive role models considering Lara is skilled in various fields. | |
And then all you have is music and movies to contend with. I'm all for progress but I find it odd that you could release the same game in movie form and see no controversy.
Probably shouldn't bring reality into this. It's only cool to accept this all as fact. | |
But there's a counter. Any male who doesn't fit these stereotypes is marginalized. The main character must be those things, but if a male isn't one of them, they're portrayed negatively. They're the wacky comedy relief, or the camp gay, or both at the same time. Or even the villain. How many older males in video games exist to be nothing but a father/surrogate father to the main character, and are either killed off, or made into the villain of the game? We complain about females being shallow, one-note, token characters, and are praised, but try to bring up the same complain about males, and no, no, we have to focus on the women.
There's this thing called "benevolent sexism". It's hardly benevolent, if you ask me, but it's praising conformation to sterotypes and punishing deviation. And it gets mostly ignored. Why? Because video games tended to be thought of as 'male-dominated' so people think the only counter is to start using the same standards we judge males on for females, to bring them up to the same level. What we need isn't more bad-ass action girls, but a game market where strength AND weakness are both valued. But weakness is only ever presented as something to be overcome, the meek character needs to toughen up. We don't need a female Duke Nukem, we need to have fewer Duke Nukems in the world altogether. | |
1. Yes you probably are Now I'm not saying that there isn't sexism in Video Games, but shouldn't we try to get stronger arguments/sources than fucking YouTube comments? The YouTube comments section is probably one of the worst places on the internet, how is this news? I would be willing to bet that almost all of those sexist comments were made by people who either A- created an account for the sole use of trolling, or B- don't use their real names on YouTube so they can get away with whatever they feel like. Anonymous sexist comments really don't mean anything
I believe it was only $6000, which is still fucking ridiculous
And the magazine industry, and TV, and every other entertainment medium out there | |
I have two points to make: 1) I really hate to be that guy who replies "why is this news?? shit lik this hapenns every day" to every article he reads, up to and including articles on mass murder, but why is this news, shit like this happens every day. Sexist a-holes on YouTube will be sexist a-holes on YouTube. The depth and quantity of the hate isn't even particularly remarkable, nor is it hatred for some new subject the internet has never gotten around to before. It's just more obnoxious, vile, but ultimately inconsequential douchebaggery from more perfect examples of the GIFT. 2) I'm not overly optimistic about this series. Citing Skullgirls as an example of a mysoginistic game is a bit off in my opinion. It's like citing a Tarantino film as an example of a violent gore-porn movie: the entire point is to take that aspect and crank it right over the top to the point that it's clearly meant to be a gentle poke at, if not an outright satire of, the sort of work that tries to use that trope in earnest. I acknowledge it's a noble effort, and I'll probably give it a watch and see where this goes, but I'm not expecting much in the way of revolutionary new ideas. | |
Welcome to the internet, i see you've never read youtube comments before. | |
I don't exactly agree with the means or "words" this discussion has been held, but then it's on YouTube and he DID make the effort to pick out some of the worst but this "We have to get rid of sexuality in games!" is pissing me off more and more. Look, I'm attracted to primary female sexual characteristics and enjoy seeing them, being it in real life where a lot of women surprisingly seem to notice this, in movies, in marketing (seriously, I think lots of marketers from a lot of different branches have caught on to that, it's insane!) or yes, even in video games. I cringe if they are badly made like everyone else but I won't hide liking it and wanting more of it. Now we are at the level of white-knighting and "feminist rights" where every single bit of "side-boob", even in the most maturely meant manner like in Witcher 2 it brings up countless appaled articles like this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/20/gamecon-%e2%80%9910-ripport-day-too-the-witcher-2/
Or seems to be the main topic of discussion about an otherwise really fine looking game, like this KickStarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/935411564/hexit-point-and-click-sci-fi-adventure-game And frankly, it's starting to piss me off big time, if I can see boobs and ass in prime shows on HBO and Showtime I don't see why video games should somehow be exempt and always evoke this kind of reaction at the slightest show of some skin. Especially since there is enough games out there that do cater to that (and every other audience) nowadays, I can't even remember the last game I played that was "oversexualized" that way since I play mostly indie games nowadays like all of these: http://www.humblebundle.com/ I got another idea for everyone, how about instead of complaining about games that do consist of some of those elements (other people like) or different cultures like Japan or Korea with games like TERA and Lineage, you just don't buy them instead of trying to turn EVERY SINGLE game into some "political correctness" mish-mash that has to appeal and cater to everyone, stop complaining and let the market regulate it? Me for instance I don't like dudebro shooters like Gears of War or Call of Duty very much, so I just don't buy/play them and do buy/play what I enjoy instead... | |
Now I'm no expert in politics, but I'm pretty sure that when somebody claims to be suffering from mild oppression/misrepresentation trying to get them labelled a terrorist isn't the best move | |
I think only one person has really commented on my problem with the whole scenario: Do we really want games to get rid of the stereotypes for either sex? Do you know how boring it would be to play a game that replicates reality right down to a T? Think about it, playing as an average Joe who has to file his taxes would put most gamers to sleep. ...and a lot of other people have already pointed out the stupidity of the kickstarter, I don't really need to repeat their arguments. Point: I don't want stereotypes to completely dissapear because then gaming would actually become boring. They need to be less ham-handed, and more nonsterotypical characters should exist to balance out the others, mostly for the female demographic. | |
But there's a deeper problem we encounter when faced with this. Even those of us that listen to the disparity that exists between gender portrayal with the mind to change things have very little effect against the tsunami of ignorant bile that these people project. We can support the projects, yes, and spread awareness, and we can try and instruct others that the portrayal of one of the walking meat slabs that are the varied space marines and foot soldiers of popular gaming are not an equivalent set of problems as bikini-clad martial artists, and show them that even assuming so is a fallacy, but like a tsunami, it's hard to fight, it's easiest to board up, wait until the worst is over, and start recovering. We can ignore it, and filter out the parts of the community that are reasonable and those that are jeering because they find jeers to be a form of communication, but the insipid shouting of these asshats is exponentially louder than our discourse asking what can be done to rectify this inequality. Quite simply, we don't know how to fight it, as a community. Game devs can help more than we can, but foregoing a character creation sheet ripped from TVTropes is apparently something hard to do, and it's gonna take more than just a couple of competent, goal-oriented, real female characters to get this ball rolling. As a society, we're not good at actually confronting problems, and that gets even more compounded in communities like ours, one build around consequence-free anonymity. Right now, our only recourse is ignoring it, turning a blind eye, and that's not how to stop unwanted behavior. Unfortunately, we don't have many other feasible ways to stifle this behavior. | |
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