Senior EVE Online Community Member Killed in Libya Riot

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The only thing that these fundamentalists are doing, other than murdering innocent people, is making all Muslims look like hateful savages. I wish moderate Muslims would shun these people and send a clear message that this behaviour is unacceptable.

No one should have to die because of religious hatred.

ElPatron:

The riots occurred in response to a low-budget movie

This angers me. People shouldn't have to suffer because someone used of his rights to create something. Specially when it comes to religion, it really gives a bad image to Islam and that will only fuel the criticism of Muslim people - it's a vicious cycle.

Pretty much. As I saw commented elsewhere about this story: Some jerkoff made a movie proposing how violent and ignorant islam is, then a bunch of violent and ignorant islamic extremists murder several completely unrelated people on the other side of the world because the movie offended them by calling them violent and ignorant?

As ancient and advanced as that culture is supposed to be, the 'sticks and stones...' concept has apparently has not been discovered.

Johnson McGee:
The only thing that these fundamentalists are doing, other than murdering innocent people, is making all Muslims look like hateful savages. I wish moderate Muslims would shun these people and send a clear message that this behaviour is unacceptable.

No one should have to die because of religious hatred.

Agreed 100%, and thank you to those few who have made statements condemning this act.

SacremPyrobolum:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

You know that period that history calls the 'dark ages'? Well, the they did not have that in Islam. In fact, while the Europeans were still burning witches for having a mole on their back, Muslims were innovating in mathematics, astronomy, and medicine.

Now, some might say this proves that Muslims are the superior religion, but that is also ignorant. Th Renaissance and the enlightenment revolutionized, art science, and culture.

Really what I am trying to get at is it is stupid and ignorant to point at one group of people and say "there. They are the problem."

You are right about the dark ages, Islam is having that right now. Islam is the youngest of the major religions and is thusly very insecure of it's place in the world. Which results in madmen who pick up their swords in Allah's name.

Kinda like the Christians during the medieval times. It's the exact same thing, only then with bombs and missiles instead of swords and crossbows.

Hopefully it will not take 400 years to resolve itself, like it did last time.

I never met this guy since I haven't played Eve for very long, but... this is getting to me quite a bit. It makes this issue hit closer to home because it hurt someone that was, in a way, part of a community that I am involved with.

*sighs* I hate religious extremists. Why do they have to do shit like this? ;_;

Elmoth:

SacremPyrobolum:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

You know that period that history calls the 'dark ages'? Well, the they did not have that in Islam. In fact, while the Europeans were still burning witches for having a mole on their back, Muslims were innovating in mathematics, astronomy, and medicine.

Now, some might say this proves that Muslims are the superior religion, but that is also ignorant. Th Renaissance and the enlightenment revolutionized, art science, and culture.

Really what I am trying to get at is it is stupid and ignorant to point at one group of people and say "there. They are the problem."

Actually that wasn't because of/in all of islam. Just a number of arabian countries were revolutionizing chemistry, math etc. It had little to do with Islam directly.

Still, I find it strange to bring this up, DisgruntledGamer. We don't know the reasons this man was involved in these things and it's simply sad that he died.

I know that the scientific advances had little to do with Islam, but I was trying to point out that being Muslim does not in any way make you hold science in any sort of contempt as the video posted and general attitude of the poster was trying to convey.

And he died because of a crappy, low-budget that had nothing to do with him, and probably anyone who was injured or killed during the attack. This is ridiculous, and the pepole who attacked that consulate (or embassy? I can't remember) should rot in prison for the end of their lives.
It's of course very sad that this man (and other victims) died. A shame.

tkioz:
Let me get this straight? People are dead because a bunch of wankers got upset of another wanker making a shitty little movie that only a handful of other wankers watched?

Dear Lord... Of all the things to kill over...

i have all been of the opinion that religon is the most dangoures thing in the world. Not nessecerly bad mind but VERY volatile. This is the reason why i hold that opinion. I'm sorry for all the victims as a result of this riot/attack/ terrorist/insert what ever offical terminaolgy.

SacremPyrobolum:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

You know that period that history calls the 'dark ages'? Well, the they did not have that in Islam. In fact, while the Europeans were still burning witches for having a mole on their back, Muslims were innovating in mathematics, astronomy, and medicine.

Now, some might say this proves that Muslims are the superior religion, but that is also ignorant. Th Renaissance and the enlightenment revolutionized, art science, and culture.

Really what I am trying to get at is it is stupid and ignorant to point at one group of people and say "there. They are the problem."

Except is was virtually all Persian advancement. The Arabic muslims by and large contributed jack diddly. And that has to do with the fact that Persia was a large and flourishing society long before the Islamics overran it. Any advancement was in spite of, and not because of, Islam.

Great. So these people had to die because a handful of monsters didn't like a trailer to an obscure and irrelevant movie made by a dipshit on the other side of the world.

Protip, asswipes: When some douchebag calls you a cancer, you don't disprove them by killing innocent people.

ravenshrike:

SacremPyrobolum:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

You know that period that history calls the 'dark ages'? Well, the they did not have that in Islam. In fact, while the Europeans were still burning witches for having a mole on their back, Muslims were innovating in mathematics, astronomy, and medicine.

Now, some might say this proves that Muslims are the superior religion, but that is also ignorant. Th Renaissance and the enlightenment revolutionized, art science, and culture.

Really what I am trying to get at is it is stupid and ignorant to point at one group of people and say "there. They are the problem."

Except is was virtually all Persian advancement. The Arabic muslims by and large contributed jack diddly. And that has to do with the fact that Persia was a large and flourishing society long before the Islamics overran it. Any advancement was in spite of, and not because of, Islam.

Again, I am not saying that the scientific advancements were because of holding an Islamic faith but rather to disprove that Islam has always condemned scientific progress.

For fuck's sake guys if you want to talk about what fucking country is stupid or whatever shit go take it in R&P or a user group or some shit.
Jesus christ.

OT: So, if I understand this right, some racist prick makes a racist movie and other people die because of his stupidity?
Jesus.
Condolences not only to Vilerat's family but also to everyone else who knew someone who died in whatever happened. Christ this sucks.

Devoneaux:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

Uh-huh.

You know I was going to argue that it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with political instability of the region that stifles progress, but the sheer ignorance of that video kinda scrambled my bwekgjsnjgbgakjgag

Point out where that video is inaccurate or falsified in anyway and I'll not only never link it anywhere ever again, I'll criticize it 6 ways from Sunday.

SacremPyrobolum:

I know that the scientific advances had little to do with Islam, but I was trying to point out that being Muslim does not in any way make you hold science in any sort of contempt as the video posted and general attitude of the poster was trying to convey.

Actually it does, but they're not the only ones guilty of this, they just take it to the next extreme. Trying to pass religion off as Scientific fact and suppressing real science that contradicts ancient books is holding science in contempt.

If you want I'd be happy to send (you or anyone who wants them) interviews and videos of Richard Dawkins as he tackles the matter, but I feel they would be too off topic for here.

I never liked the Goons. They were punks and pirates. They manipulated the market and hoarded vital resources, But that is all part of the game and I never begrudged anyone for making too much ISK.

May he who was known as Vile Rat rest in peace. He did lead the universe of EVE, and today is truly a dark day. Though we may have been on different sides of EVE life, we were joined by EVE.

Everybody knows the best way to get your opinion across is to murder those who disagree with you.

The people who react to a low-budget movie by performing murder in the name of their invisible stuffed animal are the real ones this world doesn't need.

They're not helping the already scathing view of Islam a lot of people have. Subhuman filth.

Therumancer:
To be honest I can't make any judgements about Vile Rat as a person, having never met him, going by his name and affiliations... well, I'd imagine "nice guy" probably isn't a good description unless you were on his side... but heck, that's gaming. It's sad to know such a dedicated gamer and part of the US diplomatic corps has passed on though, especially under these circumstances.

That said, if Vile Rat was a diplomat, I doubt he'd agree with what I'm about to say but... I think this pretty much demonstrates that the Muslim cultures simply cannot exist on the same planet with everyone else, something that goes beyond any one nation in the region, and also needs to be seperated from Islam itself which can be practiced peacefully even if the vast number of adherants that dominate The Middle East choose not to, and maintain a xenophobic way of life that might be thousands of years old, but has become a cancer to progress.

When a trailer for a movie that happens to be offensive to your point of view incites riots against international targets of this sort, I think we've gone beyond any arguements that problems in the region are simply the result of a tiny, radical minority. This is like right wingers rallying en-masse and going on killing rampages over a Michael Moore documentary, or people shooting up The House Of Representitives over "Passion Of The Christ". If this was an isolated incident it would be one thing, but the simple fact that we're in a very similar place periodically it seems shows that measured response and peaceful attempts at negotiation have failed. Heck, they attacked our diplomats who are the peaceful talkative guys, yet again, and this was over a bloody movie trailer.

I've said all of this before, but honestly, how many times do we need to visit incidents like this? From where I'm sitting out leaders are talking a good game, but when it comes to action they are simply reaching for ever larger tubes of lube, and as they do, we seem to be encouraging things to just get worse.

I felt the need to say my piece here, I had been avoiding the topic, but for some reason learning that a big time EVE player and Goon died kind of bugs me. I played EVE at a very casual high-sec level for a while, and call Something Awful once in a while to read the main page for a laugh. I guess it just hit closer to home, and has really gotten my usual sentiments roiling. In the end I pretty much think it's just time to unleash all the nasty weapons we keep around but won't use for moral reasons (which doesn't even need to include nukes) and bring Armageddon to the region. Heck if people are concerned about Genocide, just put some egg cells and sperm into a bank to be thawed out later. Besides I'd kind of get a kick out of telling the descendants of a formerly theocratic culture that freaks out over movie trailers and wants me dead that their creator is an American in a lab coat that combined them, and that if they need a god his name is Doctor Pointdexter (or whatever). :)

Yes, I'm angry again, so take that for what it's worth.

Genocide of an entire region is definitely a reasonable and sensible solution to the problems in the Middle East.

SacremPyrobolum:

You know that period that history calls the 'dark ages'? Well, the they did not have that in Islam.

I think that the dead in New York City, London, Mumbai, Madrid, Toulouse, Ft. Hood, Benghazi, Tripoli, Cairo, Alexandria, Baghdad, Damascus, Aleppo, Kabul, the Kurdish region of Iraq, and the Coptic Christian villages in Egypt beg to differ. The European "Dark Ages", as you call it, happened centuries ago. The Dark Age of Islam is NOW.

MCGT:

Therumancer:
To be honest I can't make any judgements about Vile Rat as a person, having never met him, going by his name and affiliations... well, I'd imagine "nice guy" probably isn't a good description unless you were on his side... but heck, that's gaming. It's sad to know such a dedicated gamer and part of the US diplomatic corps has passed on though, especially under these circumstances.

That said, if Vile Rat was a diplomat, I doubt he'd agree with what I'm about to say but... I think this pretty much demonstrates that the Muslim cultures simply cannot exist on the same planet with everyone else, something that goes beyond any one nation in the region, and also needs to be seperated from Islam itself which can be practiced peacefully even if the vast number of adherants that dominate The Middle East choose not to, and maintain a xenophobic way of life that might be thousands of years old, but has become a cancer to progress.

When a trailer for a movie that happens to be offensive to your point of view incites riots against international targets of this sort, I think we've gone beyond any arguements that problems in the region are simply the result of a tiny, radical minority. This is like right wingers rallying en-masse and going on killing rampages over a Michael Moore documentary, or people shooting up The House Of Representitives over "Passion Of The Christ". If this was an isolated incident it would be one thing, but the simple fact that we're in a very similar place periodically it seems shows that measured response and peaceful attempts at negotiation have failed. Heck, they attacked our diplomats who are the peaceful talkative guys, yet again, and this was over a bloody movie trailer.

I've said all of this before, but honestly, how many times do we need to visit incidents like this? From where I'm sitting out leaders are talking a good game, but when it comes to action they are simply reaching for ever larger tubes of lube, and as they do, we seem to be encouraging things to just get worse.

I felt the need to say my piece here, I had been avoiding the topic, but for some reason learning that a big time EVE player and Goon died kind of bugs me. I played EVE at a very casual high-sec level for a while, and call Something Awful once in a while to read the main page for a laugh. I guess it just hit closer to home, and has really gotten my usual sentiments roiling. In the end I pretty much think it's just time to unleash all the nasty weapons we keep around but won't use for moral reasons (which doesn't even need to include nukes) and bring Armageddon to the region. Heck if people are concerned about Genocide, just put some egg cells and sperm into a bank to be thawed out later. Besides I'd kind of get a kick out of telling the descendants of a formerly theocratic culture that freaks out over movie trailers and wants me dead that their creator is an American in a lab coat that combined them, and that if they need a god his name is Doctor Pointdexter (or whatever). :)

Yes, I'm angry again, so take that for what it's worth.

Genocide of an entire region is definitely a reasonable and sensible solution to the problems in the Middle East.

It truly is. If someone dropped a B/C weapon on the area...nothing of value would be lost.

It's weird, I read stories every day about riots and war and death, and even though, logically, I know that every person who dies is someone else's mother, father, wife, child, etc. Even the deaths in my own city don't really give me pause, but just the simple fact that I had actually spoken to him in a game suddenly made this story strike me.

It's terrible, and if these attacks really were caused by a frakking movie...

Then I have nothing to say, hope for humanity back down to zero...

I mean seriously, "Muslims aren't a cancer, let's prove it by killing innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with what got our panties in a twist!" I can't be the only person who can see the flaw in their logic...

What an absolutely predictable disgrace. Let's get a few things out of the way:

1. Both the attacks in Libya and the attacks in Egypt were COORDINATED and PLANNED for the DATE. The Arab world is as aware of the significance of Sept 11 as we are. The mob was not a loose collection of people randomly holding al Qaeda flags, RPG launchers, and Molotov cocktails who all saw the same obscure youtube video and all decided to attack symbols of American power at once. This was a multinational 'fuck you' operation by Al Qaeda against American soft targets. Their 'religious outrage' is as canned and manufactured as the State Department press releases.

2. You never, ever, EVER hire locals as private security in a Muslim nation unless you yourself are a Muslim who lives in that nation. In case anyone hasn't already noticed, the US Army has been having a HUGE problem with "green on blue" killings in Afghanistan, you either get your own people or hire foreigners who don't live there. Most likely the diplomat and his aide were there on an expense account and trusted in their diplomatic wit to save them instead of investing in proper security (so expensive! We can say all the right things in all the right languages! It can never happen to us!)

3. Islam's high cultural achievements came mostly when they kept a Christian and Jewish population as slaves, and could thus take credit for their discoveries as they ran the actual people and land into the ground:

Throughout the coastal areas surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, archaeologists have uncovered a layer of subsoil that was deposited over a period of three hundred years beginning in the middle of the seventh century AD.

This stratum, named the "Younger Fill" by the geologist Claudio Vita-Finzi, covers the ruins of all the major cities and settlements that were established along the Mediterranean littoral during classical antiquity. It stands as a coda to Graeco-Roman civilization. For three centuries after the year 650 the archaeology of the region is all but barren. Wastelands or severely diminished primitive settlements have replaced the formerly great cities of the Roman Empire and the Near East.

One might surmise that the Younger Fill is the result of some yet unidentified climatic trauma that afflicted the entire Mediterranean basin. However, the same phenomenon has been observed in an entirely different watershed: Mesopotamia, the land drained by the Tigris and Euphrates in what is now Iraq, and also including the coastal regions adjoining the Persian Gulf.

During the same period - from the middle of the seventh century until the middle of the tenth - archaeology in the entirety of Europe and the Middle East virtually disappears. This civilizational interruption might be thought a result of the Dark Ages in Europe, except for the fact that it includes areas of the Middle East which were never part of the Roman Empire, and where advanced cultures independent of Rome and Greece had flourished.

What all these areas have in common, of course, is that they were conquered by the Arabs during the initial period of Islamic expansion, when the Near East, North Africa, and Iberia were subjugated within the space of less than a century.

Islam came to the Mediterranean and left as its principal legacy the Younger Fill.

PROTIP: When you discover the ruins of an ancient civilization and a bunch of people living in squalor and oppression among them, having no knowledge of their history or construction, their ancestors probably killed everyone there with the intelligence, knowledge, and cultural history who knew how to maintain it. It's not like Islam has any history of violent and entirely pointless revolutions or anything.

In Pirenne's time it was commonly understood - and still is - that the end of civilization began in the fifth century with the fall of Rome and the barbarian invasions, a full two hundred years before the legions of Mohammed raged across the eastern and southern littorals of the Mediterranean. According to the scholarly consensus, Roman civilization was already moribund by the time the Arabs arrived on the scene, and the Islamic incursion simply tipped the last vestiges of it into oblivion.

Using recent archaeological data, Pirenne concluded that classical civilization did not end in the fifth century, but rather in the seventh, when the fragments of the later Roman Empire were overrun by the Arab invaders. The Islamic predators terminated civilization wherever they encountered it, in whatever form it happened to take.

This thesis was not well-received in its time. It was relegated to the fringe, where it has remained ever since. In the politically correct 21st century, which extols the grandeur of the "Golden Age of Islam in Iberia", Pirenne's stock can only decline further. Our degraded culture is not receptive to the idea that it was Islam, rather than the Germanic barbarians, that destroyed the culture and civilization of Rome.

What happened to Pirenne in the 1920s and 1930s, however, reminds us that politically correct notions about Islam did not originate in the late twentieth century. The myth of al-Andalus was firmly established in the nineteenth century by British and German scholars, who discovered in Islam the "saviors of classical knowledge". By the time of the Great War these ideas were firmly entrenched, so that Pirenne faced an uphill battle in his attempts to propagate an alternative theory.

Fortunately for his modern admirers, a wealth of additional archaeological data has accumulated in the eight decades since Pirenne first published his analysis. More recent evidence not only corroborates Pirenne's assertions, it demonstrates conclusively that no other explanation can reasonably be adduced: the Islamic invasions wrecked the agricultural systems of the Mediterranean basin, all but destroyed literacy, and brought down the vibrant, prosperous, and civilized successor states to the late Roman Empire in North Africa and Iberia.

In writing Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited: The History of a Controversy, Emmet Scott has published the most important piece of scholarship of this young century. The New English Review Press deserves great credit for making his book available to the general public.

Mr. Scott describes in detail the magnitude of the destruction - much worse than most of us had previously thought - wrought by Islam on classical antiquity. Far from saving the works of the ancients, Islam all but annihilated them, even as it destroyed the advanced civilizations that created them.

The destruction was both ideological and physical. When the Arab armies overran the Near East and North Africa, their heedless pastoral practices destroyed the topsoil, and thus the agriculture that sustained the wealthy economies of the region. By pillaging existing infrastructure and permitting complex irrigation systems to fall into ruin, they forced hardship and starvation upon what remained of the indigenous population. Hence the Younger Fill: the tangible evidence of what Arab culture brought to Mediterranean civilization.

Islam also systematically destroyed the ideas that underlay classical learning, bringing into disrepute any corpus of knowledge that did not agree with the Koran and did not further the spread of Islam. Entire fields of knowledge were consigned to the dustbin, further guaranteeing the poverty and backwardness of the Islamic states that displaced their classical predecessors.

Finally, Islamic piracy and predation brought sea trade in the Mediterranean to a virtual standstill. This was not only devastating to the economies of Europe, but it also halted the export of papyrus from Egypt to the rest of the region. The use of papyrus for written material was the major engine of widespread literacy in the Mediterranean. After the supply dried up, parchment proved to be scarce, expensive, and inadequate as a replacement.

Thanks to Islam, the Mediterranean basin was transformed from a peaceful, literate, civilized culture into a violent, illiterate, and backward one - all in the space of a generation or so.

Death to the Swarm. Any responsible environmentalism demands it.

disgruntledgamer:

Devoneaux:

disgruntledgamer:
"Californian Sam Bacile, who has described Islam as "a cancer, period."

Truth hurts I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEeTBuPQuo

by Thunderf00t

Uh-huh.

You know I was going to argue that it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with political instability of the region that stifles progress, but the sheer ignorance of that video kinda scrambled my bwekgjsnjgbgakjgag

Point out where that video is inaccurate or falsified in anyway and I'll not only never link it anywhere ever again, I'll criticize it 6 ways from Sunday.

SacremPyrobolum:

I know that the scientific advances had little to do with Islam, but I was trying to point out that being Muslim does not in any way make you hold science in any sort of contempt as the video posted and general attitude of the poster was trying to convey.

Actually it does, but they're not the only ones guilty of this, they just take it to the next extreme. Trying to pass religion off as Scientific fact and suppressing real science that contradicts ancient books is holding science in contempt.

If you want I'd be happy to send (you or anyone who wants them) interviews and videos of Richard Dawkins as he tackles the matter, but I feel they would be too off topic for here.

I don't need to point out specifics because the entire premise of your assertion is innately flawed, thus the whole is flawed. Social, economic and technological progress requires a politically and militarily stable area to properly develop. You might argue that the reason the region is unstable has to do with Islam, but Islam itself is NOT the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late. If religious extremism was at it took to completely halt progress, Europe would still be shitting in metal pots and dumping it out the window in the morning.

Been a player for over a year, never met the guy or even tangled with the guys corp but his family has my sympathy. I'm not gonna talk about relgion or rights since this is a gaming website and I come here to talk about games so I'm just gonna end with the proper EVE farewell

Fly Safe

Devoneaux:

I don't need to point out specifics because the entire premise of your assertion is innately flawed, thus the whole is flawed. Social, economic and technological progress requires a politically and militarily stable area to properly develop. You might argue that the reason the region is unstable has to do with Islam, but Islam itself is NOT the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late. If religious extremism was at it took to completely halt progress, Europe would still be shitting in metal pots and dumping it out the window in the morning.

Yes you do need to point out the specifics, because the argument he presents is backed up by facts and statistics, and unless those facts and statistics are wrong or flawed in someway your argument has no bases. "Your wrong because I think you're wrong" seems to be your only defense. It's a 3min video not 3hours.

What evidence do you present that Islam isn't the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late? From Religious Riots, to people being put on death trials for tweeting, to banning tweeter & facebook because of "Draw Mohammad Day." The evidence is pointing that it is because of religious extremist, and Europe did go through a Dark Age because of extremists.

disgruntledgamer:

Devoneaux:

I don't need to point out specifics because the entire premise of your assertion is innately flawed, thus the whole is flawed. Social, economic and technological progress requires a politically and militarily stable area to properly develop. You might argue that the reason the region is unstable has to do with Islam, but Islam itself is NOT the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late. If religious extremism was at it took to completely halt progress, Europe would still be shitting in metal pots and dumping it out the window in the morning.

Yes you do need to point out the specifics, because the argument he presents is backed up by facts and statistics, and unless those facts and statistics are wrong or flawed in someway your argument has no bases. "Your wrong because I think you're wrong" seems to be your only defense. It's a 3min video not 3hours.

What evidence do you present that Islam isn't the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late? From Religious Riots, to people being put on death trials for tweeting, to banning tweeter & facebook because of "Draw Mohammad Day." The evidence is pointing that it is because of religious extremist, and Europe did go through a Dark Age because of extremists.

Statistic the first in video:
life expectancy ~25 years without science, ~75 years with science

FALSE.

What the shit does that even mean? Where and under what other socio-political conditions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Oh, look at that the USA is 5 places after the United Arab Emirates, and within the next 15 places there are three more Islamic countries.

And as for scientific output? Do you think maybe that has to do with economic activity... just maybe? No, of course not. The USA just has more research than any other country because they love science so much: that's why they include even more things under the heading of science than other countries... like creationism (obviously this only applies to some states).

Finally, Europe's so called "Dark Ages" were not particularly dark and had very little to do with religion at all. Mostly they get that moniker because the large literate Roman population was replaced by illiterate Germanic tribes (who nevertheless had strong cultures and long oral traditions) so that the body of writing available from the period is much less than the Roman era.

... and when did the first European universities get founded and really get going? When Europeans brought back books, learning, and the work of Arabic and Jewish scholars from Spain (and later from the Middle East during the Crusades).

Seriously, this stuff is all well documented. You would have to go out of your way to miss it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve

I'm a little bit hesitant to drop this sort of URL on the forums, but since I have no idea how to post pictures in spoilers (least of all those that would horribly stretch the browser), I'm just going to show that.... yes, EVE Online is populated with borderline sociopaths who use the sandbox nature of the game to commit acts that would warrant a retaliatory punch in the face in the real life, but there really is a community in the game, and we really do care about each other....

Even if one of the more popular ideas for memorializing the man is a free-for-all bloodbath of a scale that the game has never seen.

Glad to see overthrowing Khadafi went so well.

If you played EVE, Vile Rat had something to do with it. EVE is great today because of the few people like him, and that's from the perspective of a sworn enemy of the Goons. He will be missed. RIP.

Dimitriov:

disgruntledgamer:

Devoneaux:

I don't need to point out specifics because the entire premise of your assertion is innately flawed, thus the whole is flawed. Social, economic and technological progress requires a politically and militarily stable area to properly develop. You might argue that the reason the region is unstable has to do with Islam, but Islam itself is NOT the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late. If religious extremism was at it took to completely halt progress, Europe would still be shitting in metal pots and dumping it out the window in the morning.

Yes you do need to point out the specifics, because the argument he presents is backed up by facts and statistics, and unless those facts and statistics are wrong or flawed in someway your argument has no bases. "Your wrong because I think you're wrong" seems to be your only defense. It's a 3min video not 3hours.

What evidence do you present that Islam isn't the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late? From Religious Riots, to people being put on death trials for tweeting, to banning tweeter & facebook because of "Draw Mohammad Day." The evidence is pointing that it is because of religious extremist, and Europe did go through a Dark Age because of extremists.

Statistic the first in video:
life expectancy ~25 years without science, ~75 years with science

FALSE.

What the shit does that even mean? Where and under what other socio-political conditions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Oh, look at that the USA is 5 places after the United Arab Emirates, and within the next 15 places there are three more Islamic countries.

And as for scientific output? Do you think maybe that has to do with economic activity... just maybe? No, of course not. The USA just has more research than any other country because they love science so much: that's why they include even more things under the heading of science than other countries... like creationism (obviously this only applies to some states).

Finally, Europe's so called "Dark Ages" were not particularly dark and had very little to do with religion at all. Mostly they get that moniker because the large literate Roman population was replaced by illiterate Germanic tribes (who nevertheless had strong cultures and long oral traditions) so that the body of writing available from the period is much less than the Roman era.

... and when did the first European universities get founded and really get going? When Europeans brought back books, learning, and the work of Arabic and Jewish scholars from Spain (and later from the Middle East during the Crusades).

Seriously, this stuff is all well documented. You would have to go out of your way to miss it.

I like you.

Seriously, everyone in this thread spouting about how ignorant and backwards Islamic culture is is on the same path of ignorance and destruction as the assholes that did this crime. This was not a religious killing, it was a political killing that was masked by an unrelated religious dispute. Libyan citizens were photographed pulling wounded Americans away to take them to hospitals. This whole "Islam is a destructive religion!" thing is ignoring some basic damn facts about Islam.

Like how Christians and Jews are brothers in Islam and are supposed to be treated equally for one. Yeah, that little religious law is ignored both by the murderous assholes and the bigots.

The issue isn't that any one religion is evil or destructive. All of them have good and bad, be they Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or whatever the fuck. Islam flourished for hundreds of years due to an emphasis on natural science, a politically unifying theology, and personal rights superior to those found in Europe for women and in many cases men. They floundered due to political instability caused by secular issues (collapses of empires, the British coming in an d ruining everything like they always do in every situation ever) and tinpot asshole dictators that used the laws of Islam to justify their own backwards beliefs.

Your culture is not superior. Your ideology is not better. Your religion is not more right. To think any of those is to follow the same path as those who would use a religious riot to cover up murder.

Deal with it.

Boy, talk about an overreaction to a B-movie....It's like finding a cook with a gun to your head after you told her there was too much mayo in the potato salad.

You did a real nice job of repeating yourself over & over in that first paragraph.

Dimitriov:

Statistic the first in video:
life expectancy ~25 years without science, ~75 years with science

FALSE.

What the shit does that even mean? Where and under what other socio-political conditions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Oh, look at that the USA is 5 places after the United Arab Emirates, and within the next 15 places there are three more Islamic countries.

You don't no what it's supposed to mean but you know it's false? He was making a point that without Science i.e. (Medical treatment) the life expediency is around 25 year where the average life expediency where medical treatment is more available is much higher 75 years.

But why you got in such a huffy over that point I have no clue.

Dimitriov:

And as for scientific output? Do you think maybe that has to do with economic activity... just maybe? No, of course not. The USA just has more research than any other country because they love science so much: that's why they include even more things under the heading of science than other countries... like creationism (obviously this only applies to some states).

20% of the words population vs 1 University stop making excuses, you cannot say that's all from a lack of economic activity that's just absurd.....

Also I do not make apologies for creationism IMO it's something that also has to go.

Dimitriov:

Finally, Europe's so called "Dark Ages"

Video doesn't mention anything about the Dark Ages.

Dimitriov:

... and when did the first European universities get founded and really get going? When Europeans brought back books, learning, and the work of Arabic and Jewish scholars from Spain (and later from the Middle East during the Crusades).

Seriously, this stuff is all well documented. You would have to go out of your way to miss it.

I'm not missing it you're miss quoting it and miss representing it, they gained most of their knowledge by slaughtering & concurring other nations. Not to mention it's not even relevant to what is going on now because it happened hundred's of years ago. Comparing Scientific contribution today to Scientific contribution in 750-1250 is ridiculous.

Johnson McGee:
The only thing that these fundamentalists are doing, other than murdering innocent people, is making all Muslims look like hateful savages. I wish moderate Muslims would shun these people and send a clear message that this behaviour is unacceptable.

No one should have to die because of religious hatred.

Basically they're rioting and killing people over some low budget movie and comment made by a directer. How that is supposed to prove him wrong is beyond me,.

FelixG:

MCGT:

Therumancer:
To be honest I can't make any judgements about Vile Rat as a person, having never met him, going by his name and affiliations... well, I'd imagine "nice guy" probably isn't a good description unless you were on his side... but heck, that's gaming. It's sad to know such a dedicated gamer and part of the US diplomatic corps has passed on though, especially under these circumstances.

That said, if Vile Rat was a diplomat, I doubt he'd agree with what I'm about to say but... I think this pretty much demonstrates that the Muslim cultures simply cannot exist on the same planet with everyone else, something that goes beyond any one nation in the region, and also needs to be seperated from Islam itself which can be practiced peacefully even if the vast number of adherants that dominate The Middle East choose not to, and maintain a xenophobic way of life that might be thousands of years old, but has become a cancer to progress.

When a trailer for a movie that happens to be offensive to your point of view incites riots against international targets of this sort, I think we've gone beyond any arguements that problems in the region are simply the result of a tiny, radical minority. This is like right wingers rallying en-masse and going on killing rampages over a Michael Moore documentary, or people shooting up The House Of Representitives over "Passion Of The Christ". If this was an isolated incident it would be one thing, but the simple fact that we're in a very similar place periodically it seems shows that measured response and peaceful attempts at negotiation have failed. Heck, they attacked our diplomats who are the peaceful talkative guys, yet again, and this was over a bloody movie trailer.

I've said all of this before, but honestly, how many times do we need to visit incidents like this? From where I'm sitting out leaders are talking a good game, but when it comes to action they are simply reaching for ever larger tubes of lube, and as they do, we seem to be encouraging things to just get worse.

I felt the need to say my piece here, I had been avoiding the topic, but for some reason learning that a big time EVE player and Goon died kind of bugs me. I played EVE at a very casual high-sec level for a while, and call Something Awful once in a while to read the main page for a laugh. I guess it just hit closer to home, and has really gotten my usual sentiments roiling. In the end I pretty much think it's just time to unleash all the nasty weapons we keep around but won't use for moral reasons (which doesn't even need to include nukes) and bring Armageddon to the region. Heck if people are concerned about Genocide, just put some egg cells and sperm into a bank to be thawed out later. Besides I'd kind of get a kick out of telling the descendants of a formerly theocratic culture that freaks out over movie trailers and wants me dead that their creator is an American in a lab coat that combined them, and that if they need a god his name is Doctor Pointdexter (or whatever). :)

Yes, I'm angry again, so take that for what it's worth.

Genocide of an entire region is definitely a reasonable and sensible solution to the problems in the Middle East.

It truly is. If someone dropped a B/C weapon on the area...nothing of value would be lost.

Apart from the lives of millions of innocent people but hey, I guess they don't count.

Mr F.:

Do you know where the first Hospital on earth was constructed? Baghdad.

Actually several are recorded before that (9th Century), including the asclepeion of Kos, where Hippocrates studied medicine. Some have argued the Mihintale hospital to be older, based on a 10th century inscription found on site.

Mr F.:

The oldest constantly inhabited city on earth?

Aleppo.

Damascus, Aleppo, Byblos, Crocodilopolis (currently named Faiyum), and Athens all vie for this one. None of them have rock solid evidence of 'continuous' habitation, but all have some evidence going back past the 7k year mark.

While, under normal circumstances, I would happily cheer on any angry mob that, say, wanted to storm the mittani's house and hold a human bonfire, Vile Rat was one of the few decent people I encountered in the swarm's mountain of subhuman asshats, and this makes it all the more tragic.

disgruntledgamer:

Devoneaux:

I don't need to point out specifics because the entire premise of your assertion is innately flawed, thus the whole is flawed. Social, economic and technological progress requires a politically and militarily stable area to properly develop. You might argue that the reason the region is unstable has to do with Islam, but Islam itself is NOT the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late. If religious extremism was at it took to completely halt progress, Europe would still be shitting in metal pots and dumping it out the window in the morning.

Yes you do need to point out the specifics, because the argument he presents is backed up by facts and statistics, and unless those facts and statistics are wrong or flawed in someway your argument has no bases. "Your wrong because I think you're wrong" seems to be your only defense. It's a 3min video not 3hours.

What evidence do you present that Islam isn't the direct reason for the region stagnating as of late? From Religious Riots, to people being put on death trials for tweeting, to banning tweeter & facebook because of "Draw Mohammad Day." The evidence is pointing that it is because of religious extremist, and Europe did go through a Dark Age because of extremists.

Okay, I am going to take this slow and steady for you.

These are the assertions the video maker has made (Naturally without backing them up with a source, making them useless to you in a debate):

1. The average life expectancy is higher in countries that embrace science.

2. Islam is currently practiced by 20% of the global population

3. Nations that are primarily Islamic produce less than 1% of the world's scientific papers

At NO POINT does the video maker at ANY TIME provide any statistics that directly attributes the last point to the Islamic religion. You get it yet? He's wrong on the sheer merit that he provides no proof that any of his "Observations" are even correlated (much less, correct). In fact, the first point doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with the argument he's making! The video is intellectually lazy and repugnant, and the fact that you fail to realize this is rather concerning.

Edit: Also, trying to validate your thinly disguised religious intolerance with a fake scientific argument does nothing but damage science as a whole, shame on you.

MCGT:
[

Genocide of an entire region is definitely a reasonable and sensible solution to the problems in the Middle East.

All anger aside, my basic arguement is that we make weapons of last resort for a reason. Last resort is differant from "never used". Short of things like nukes we have developed weapons like Daisy Cutter Bombs which are pretty much designed to wipe out large numbers of soft targets in places like villages, and all kinds of other high end "conventional" weapons intended to pretty much blow an opponent out of existance. The same basic tactics employed by guys like Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris during World War II, albiet with better technology.

There actually is a point where you exhaust all other reasonable avenues, and anything you try is just a variation on something else that has failed, and is itself going to be doomed to failure for the same reasons. We've tried "winning the peace", police actions, measured responses, and other thigns. As time goes on it's become increasingly obvious that we're dealing with a culture where the poison is so deep into the everyman, that what we want to see as a radical fringe is pretty much well... anyone who shares those cultural beliefs.

A lot of my renewed anger (which comes in spurts when things like this happen, and usually have me making similar arguements) come from the simple fact that the poison is so deep over there that this attack was motivated by a TRAILER for an art film that showed in like one theater. The attack motivated by the idea that the world should treat Islam as sacred, which is directly contrary to the beliefs of the US where we have both Freedom Of Speech, AND a Seperation Of Church and State, criticisms of religious institutions, govermental institutions, and everything else are way of life here. Heck, people produce offensive works about Christians and other groups all the bloody time, and it's one of our rights to do so. The problem is that the Islamics, or more specifically those who practice the majority cultural version of it in The Middle East respond with violence where other mature groups take the criticism, and perhaps learn from it.

Things have gotten to the point where given the wall we've put ourselves into, not being wiling to attack for moral reasons, we are actually giving terrorists what they want. Right now there is a federal investigation going on over some dude's art film, and we have terrified actors making outlandish claims about being ignorant of the purpose of the work due to the threat of violence. Our goverment (according to the Yahoo news page) has actually revealed the real name of the film maker who has gone into hiding.

Basically we're in a position right now where we either bow to terrorism, which we are doing, and giving these people what they want, or take them out. Due to the inabillity of our goverment to deal with the problem and take these people down, we see the US increasingly changing to avoid accidently antagonizing Islamics because of the culture of that region. I have an issue with that from a country that has embraced freedom of speech to the point of letting the workks of authors like "Dan Brown" and others which can be taken as pretty anti-catholic slide, and then behaves this way.

It might not be as dramatic a threat as say the Nazis, but it's very real. What should we do change our entire way of life to make special execeptions to our fundemental freedoms for the sake of Islam? We do that and then what happens when the next group comes along and does the same things. The Hindus start murdering people, do we make an exception there? What about The Catholics or Protestants if they decided to get violent about some of the treatment their faith has seen in the media? What about fringe cults.

There is a reason why we do not negotiate with, or work with people who do this kind of thing, but as time goes on we're doing it because we're unwilling to take the kinds of actions I mention. It might not be dramatic but if we continue down this path it will destroy the US far more completly than actually using the weapons we have to destroy a weapon ever would. It's not like we didn't try, despite what some people might want to claim.

That's what I think at any rate, and also "genocide" is a bit dramatic, but in the end one also has to ask if preserving someone trying to destroy you is worth it. Arguably if you argue idealogical genocide simply convincing them to change, if such a thing was possible (given that this is faith based rather than rational) would also be idealogical genocide. Even at my worst (which is not always 100% serious, I do have my own sense of humor which I insert into things to try and lighten up serious topics, which a lot of people don't seem to get) understand that the arabic genes, the genotype, would continue to survive. Heck Islam itself would continue to survive, it would just be the end of a specific meta-culture based on Islam. The religion CAN be practiced peacefully (as Christianity, which at it's core is just as nasty) without getting in anyone's way, it's just that hundreds of millions of people in a specific part of the world choose not to, and spread their ideas globally leading to these problems. Knock out the source, and I think over time you'll see change, and then it will be mostly peaceful Islam, with a tiny number of radicals... or simply put the equasion we want to believe exists now.

Understand something here also, and why I am again so POed. As I've said otherwise in this post, these attacks were motivated by a trailer for a movie that people saw over the internet. A movie which was shown at like ONE theater. We saw a riot and a direct attack on the USA because of some dweebs art film that wasn't even shown in their country. In response to these attacks, our goverment is actually investigating this guy like he did something wrong. Like many critical/art film makers he used a pseudonym, and under the threat of violence his real name has been released, knowing that millions of people want him dead for these stupid reasons (it's like the whole "Satanic Verse" thing again, but even more insane). This is like the goverment giving Dan Brown to the Catholic Church to be punished, or executing Gene Wilder for doing "Wooley Moses" or whatever it was (I think I have the actor and name right). At the very worst this guy deserves to be considered a Mel Gibson type douchebag... yet we're basically assisting the guys who attacked our country over this according to what I've been reading.

I'm angry not just because of the embassy attack, but because of what it's doing to our country, and our bloody priorities, where we actually think some guy making a douchebag art movie that shows in one theater makes him a bad guy. By that logic the political parties he's criticized should have Michael Moore as public enemy #1.

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