Thousands Sign Petition Demanding Removal of SimCity DRM

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kortin:

Devoneaux:

kortin:

It is impossible

No it's not. Difficult? Maybe, but that's EA's concern, not the consumer's. The ball's in their court now, we'll have to see what they do next (probably nothing).

Also, settle down.

No, it's impossible. You cannot remove the always online feature for a completely multiplayer game. A game that is entirely and completely multiplayer. A game that lacks single player of any kind. The game was designed to be multiplayer and that means always online is required because there's no such thing as offline.

Except it has a single player mode

kortin:
Holy fucking shit. Thousands of fucking idiots. Fucking SimCity5 is a multiplayer game. This is very clearly a case of CUSTOMER ENTITLEMENT. You bought a fucking multiplayer game, it's only your fucking fault that you didn't pay attention to that. It's not a fucking single player game fucking morons.

Swear more. I'm sure a couple more cusses will elevate this post to the status of momument of eloquence.

People are angry because SimCity always has been a software toy, not some strangely asymmetrical MMO. Most of us who bought the game assumed the online features would be optional and that the worst we'd have to weather would be basic authentication. That's not what happened. Designing games with a large chunk of their infrastructure being online means that you're enslaving your paying customers to the whims of your potentially lacking server architecture.

We're all entitled, that's true. We're entitled to a working product. Is piracy that much of a problem for this multibillion business that it has to hide fairly draconian measures behind social offerings that frankly don't bring much to the table?

If you want to talk about entitlement in the sense you're considering, think back on the Mass Effect 3 debacle. The original ending works - it's just not great. The game isn't unplayable because of the ending; it's just disappointing. *That* is gamer entitlement, as BioWare is only guilty of biting off more than they ever could possibly chew. Organic narratives that are completely shaped by the player's actions?

Sorry, BioWare. We're not in the United Federation of Planets yet, and don't have functioning holodecks.

kortin:

Devoneaux:

kortin:

It is impossible

No it's not. Difficult? Maybe, but that's EA's concern, not the consumer's. The ball's in their court now, we'll have to see what they do next (probably nothing).

Also, settle down.

No, it's impossible.

So in other words, assuming EA had unlimited amounts of money, time, and resources they still would not be able to physically do it? (Because that's what impossible means) Prove it.

Aaron Sylvester:
There's definitely a double standard as far as I've seen, when Blizzard did it with Diablo 3 thousands of people were actually DEFENDING them saying "it's always like this on launch day, don't worry things will get sorted".
But when EA do it then burn them down with fucking torches, eh?

you must be cherrypicking with your memories, because a shit ton of people were pissed off about error 37

But if "thousands" of people were defending them it was also liklely because it is one of the highest selling games in history, so you magnify kids like Kortin in this thread a few hundred times and there you have the defenders

Aaron Sylvester:
There's definitely a double standard as far as I've seen, when Blizzard did it with Diablo 3 thousands of people were actually DEFENDING them saying "it's always like this on launch day, don't worry things will get sorted".
But when EA do it then burn them down with fucking torches, eh?

Maybe people are becoming less tolerant of this over time.

Devoneaux:

kortin:

Devoneaux:

No it's not. Difficult? Maybe, but that's EA's concern, not the consumer's. The ball's in their court now, we'll have to see what they do next (probably nothing).

Also, settle down.

No, it's impossible.

So in other words, assuming EA had unlimited amounts of money, time, and resources they still would not be able to physically do it? (Because that's what impossible means) Prove it.

I wouldn't worry too much about Kortin. The low levels of eloquence, lack of common decency, poor knowledge of consumer rights, and lacking of an understanding of the issue at hand has been seems to about equal the sort of folks EA would employ for damage control

I can't help but think if these petitioners feel that way they should have done something like this when the drm and online-only was first mentioned. Now I would love a new simcity game but I didn't buy it because of those reasons. Every bit of news I hear about the game now just reaffirms that I made the correct decision in keeping my money.

It can't work. They designed the game so that a lot of the calculations take place server side to make piracy impossible, for the same reason they can't remove it because they designed it from the ground up to run like this

That's right. Blame EA for Maxis' decision. Go internet!

Ympulse:
That's right. Blame EA for Maxis' decision. Go internet!

They're the same entity. "Maxis" doesn't exist anymore the same way "Bioware" does not exist anymore. They are both Electronic Arts.

Ympulse:
That's right. Blame EA for Maxis' decision. Go internet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxis

Do educate yourself. Maxis IS EA, they have been for 16 years now.

Legion:
Nonsense. Gamers are embracing not being able to play their game and the always-on DRM that causes it to happen.

Sad part is that this is actually what publishers like EA hope for. They want people to buy their games but not play it, instead saving up for the next $60+ cash grab

Desert Punk:

Ympulse:
That's right. Blame EA for Maxis' decision. Go internet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxis

Do educate yourself. Maxis IS EA, they have been for 16 years now.

Please educate yourself, Maxis operates as an independent company with EA proper as the publisher.

Just because the owning majority of the company is EA doesn't mean that they're EA. Significant difference.

But hey, 14 year-old logic is superior to someone that's worked with both companies. you're right. :)

Ympulse:

Desert Punk:

Ympulse:
That's right. Blame EA for Maxis' decision. Go internet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxis

Do educate yourself. Maxis IS EA, they have been for 16 years now.

Please educate yourself, Maxis operates as an independent company with EA proper as the publisher.

Just because the owning majority of the company is EA doesn't mean that they're EA. Significant difference.

But hey, 14 year-old logic is superior to someone that's worked with both companies. you're right. :)

But the servers and the customer service policies (where the vast majority of the problems originate) are EA's responsibility

Well the DRM bascially stopped me from buying it..... Historically, SimCity was always the game I played when my internet connection was not functioning. I was really excited to see the next installment until I read about the always online requirement, at which point I determined that I would not be purchasing it.

You know what I'm going to do?

Buy it next week.
The server rush has probably died down by then, and I get to play a nice multiplayer City builder.

...well.. I'm not sure I'm going to buy it just yet, wanna do a little bit more research into the gameplay.
Watch some reviews, but one thing I won't do is piss and moan about the Always On feature in a multiplayer.

God, it's like demanding you can play WoW without going online.

kortin:

Devoneaux:

kortin:
you have no right to complain or bitch

Actually I have every right to do just that when I find faults with something I have purchased. Nobody has to do anything (unless their actions are criminal of course) But I am well within my rights to complain about a product if I purchase it and find it lacking. This is how products are advanced, by consumers who purchase your product or service provide you with feedback on how said product or service can be improved. So not only do you not understand how consumer rights work, but you are actively stomping on the advancement of the products we buy. SHAME ON YOU!

No, you have no right to complain when you buy something knowing full well that it has a certain feature. You aren't allowed to complain because you already told the company that you accept what they're doing and support it.

I'm sorry, but who are you to determine what people are "allowed" to do?

Aaron Sylvester:
There's definitely a double standard as far as I've seen, when Blizzard did it with Diablo 3 thousands of people were actually DEFENDING them saying "it's always like this on launch day, don't worry things will get sorted".
But when EA do it then burn them down with fucking torches, eh?

Remember JimQ's boycotting episode? What did he say it is best to do in times like these again...buy the game, and THEN whine about it? But still buy the game, right? I honestly don't know whether that's going to work on EA.

Uh...quick question. How do you know that the thousands of people defending Diablo and the thousands of people angry at Sim City are the same people?

BrotherRool:
It can't work. They designed the game so that a lot of the calculations take place server side to make piracy impossible, for the same reason they can't remove it because they designed it from the ground up to run like this

the issue with that being is the eventually a pirate will mod the game to make the calculations client side instead of server side.
i mean dear lord there are pirates playing WOW right now what makes you think that server side city building will stop it?

erttheking:
Uh...quick question. How do you know that the thousands of people defending Diablo and the thousands of people angry at Sim City are the same people?

They're PEOPLE, isn't that enough >_>
It can still be called a double standard even if different groups of people are doing it, double standards amongst people!

Aaron Sylvester:

erttheking:
Uh...quick question. How do you know that the thousands of people defending Diablo and the thousands of people angry at Sim City are the same people?

They're PEOPLE, isn't that enough >_>
It can still be called a double standard even if different groups of people are doing it, double standards amongst people!

It seems less like a double standard and more like people with different opinions.

Not gonna happen. The game is designed as a multiplayer experience.

Ilikemilkshake:
As much as I don't like the always-on DRM, I highly doubt it would even be possible to remove it at this point. It seems like they've made it so that it actually relies on their servers for calculations. I Don't see them completely redesigning how their game works.

TheComfyChair:
The problem is that the cities are stored on the server... This is like saying 'make an MMO work offline'.

It's not a case of removing a check in a launch program, it's a redevelopment of the game. So i don't think this is going to happen. It would be good if it did, but i doubt it will.

That's the same bullshit excuse Blizzard gave for Diablo 3.

The only thing keeping Diablo 3/SimCity online isn't months of redesign; if modders/pirates can make Diablo 3 work offline (they can), then the actual developers sure as hell can and much faster as well.

A few people have pointed out that the DRM can't be removed, because all the simulation is server-side. Well allow me to retort:

Your favorite first person shooters are also unplayable when not connected to servers. They achieve an offline single player mode by running a local server. Maxis/EA could definitely do this, the only disadvantage being higher system requirements for offline mode. They won't do it, but they're certainly capable, without having to do any significant redesigning of the game.

P.S. Thanks

Mr.Tea:

if modders/pirates can make Diablo 3 work offline (they can), then the actual developers sure as hell can and much faster as well.

I wonder how many times i'm going to have to say this today but Diablo 3 is a different game. It was always-on primarily because of the auction house, not because it 'needed' to be. In its current state, SimCity does 'need' you to be online because they've designed it so that many things run server side. This is evident by the fact that they've cut things like cheetah speed to reduce server stress.

Even if they could just flip a switch and make the game work offline, they're not going to do that because it would mean admitting they didn't need it to be online, which would mean taking responsibility for this mess.

Scars Unseen:
Suckers. I can't play SimCity either, and I didn't have to pay a dime.

you PIRATE! everyone knows you have to pay to not enjoy a game! regardless if it is online or not!

The sad part is that all this drama could've been avoided if EA had given the game a self-sustaining single player mode offline to allow players to play the game traditionally; built immensely large and intricate cities, but with all the added benefits of the game. If the DRM only applied to the *optional* multiplayer with the bells and whistles, the issues would be forgivable. Unfortunately, all arrows point to an attempt to regulate players to prevent piracy at the expense of the consumer, rather than making a comprehensive experience that all players faithful to the franchise could enjoy. Making a game like the above is so easy for EA.

Ilikemilkshake:

Mr.Tea:

if modders/pirates can make Diablo 3 work offline (they can), then the actual developers sure as hell can and much faster as well.

SimCity does 'need' you to be online because they've designed it so that many things run server side. This is evident by the fact that they've cut things like cheetah speed to reduce server stress.

And this is exactly how Diablo 3 works; lots of stuff is being done server-side which is why you and/or monsters can lag even if you're playing alone.

Which is my point. Modders/hackers have made an offline client for Diablo 3 by sniffing what content was being kept server-side and adapting it to work locally and offline.

They did that in 6 weeks.

I cannot imagine it would take the actual developer any longer to make that as a patch.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, but these alway-online-server-run-MMO-lite bullshit tactics most certainly do not exist to provide you with content that couldn't be generated locally. It only exists in the same way a special safe would require two different keys/combinations to open.

Sure, removing it isn't as easy as flipping a switch, but it's certainly no harder than making a good patch.

A neat gesture, but useless in practice.
SimCity is built around the entire game being controlled by EA from the ground up.

Removing the always-online component is akin to removing the skeleton from your own body.

Vote! That's what your wallet is for...

Adam Jensen:
Not gonna happen. The game is designed as a multiplayer experience.

SimCity 2000 Network Edition. No DRM. No bullshit.

frobalt:

TheComfyChair:
The problem is that the cities are stored on the server... This is like saying 'make an MMO work offline'.

It's not a case of removing a check in a launch program, it's a redevelopment of the game. So i don't think this is going to happen. It would be good if it did, but i doubt it will.

If the developers did their job properly then it would be a lot easier than you think to make it offline only, or even have the option to be offline while maintaining the ability to connect to servers.

I'm making assumptions here, but basically, the client and the server side of things will have different applications. The client will have to find what servers are available and connect dynamically. There will be more than 1 server, so it's not like this will be entirely hard coded. The server will then deal with all the server side stuff.

To make it offline only, EA could potentially include the server side of things with the game the player has, and then simply have the offline server mode connect to it.

As I said, I'm making assumptions here, but saying it is impossible is completely wrong, when in fact it probably wouldn't be that difficult to do.

Personally, I don't see why they didn't just include offline mode as standard. After all, it should be up to the player whether they play online or offline.

I didn't say, nor imply, that is was impossible :) I said it wasn't a case of 'hey guys, we turned off a small check in the launcher'. Therefore it'll take a redevelopment (note: not an overhaul of the entire system, but some work) of some core features of the game, therefore EA probably wont do it. Mainly because, well, they already have the money by now and they couldn't *really* care less.

We all said the simcity launch would be horrendous, yet millions have still bought it. So, in the end, all that's happened is that it's proven people are happy to pay money for massive inconvenience. I can understand diablo 3, to a degree, since people thought 'blizzard must be able to handle launches by now', but EA? They can't even get battlefield to launch without massive problems for a week and most of those servers are hosted by third parties!

All this is proving that people don't even take the 'once bitten, twice shy' approach to this kind of thing. But i can understand why, simcity looks like a great game and maybe, once it's on sale, i'll buy it even with the server hosted cities. But buying a game like this on launch is just asking for trouble.

Like i also said previously, nice if they did do it, and i'd then buy the game, but meh, somehow i doubt it'll happen. An online petition, a decent number of which will have already paid (and are therefore worthless to EA now aside from microtransaction revenue) wont change much either, in my opinion.

Ilikemilkshake:

Mr.Tea:

if modders/pirates can make Diablo 3 work offline (they can), then the actual developers sure as hell can and much faster as well.

I wonder how many times i'm going to have to say this today but Diablo 3 is a different game. It was always-on primarily because of the auction house, not because it 'needed' to be. In its current state, SimCity does 'need' you to be online because they've designed it so that many things run server side. This is evident by the fact that they've cut things like cheetah speed to reduce server stress.

Even if they could just flip a switch and make the game work offline, they're not going to do that because it would mean admitting they didn't need it to be online, which would mean taking responsibility for this mess.

Just have to say on word really "local server".

There is not a massive supercomputer doing mega calculations that our computers could not handle, it would not be cost effective. The server only notices you have gone if you disconnect for 3 minuets, so no, all important calculations (sim pathing / city development) are done on your end, otherwise as soon as you disconnect and stop receiving server data your city would not change.

So, whatever program that handles the rest of this info (leader-boards / achievements / some region communication and misc functions), would quite happily run on your PC as a "local server". This holds true to Diablo 3, Sim City, world of warcraft and pretty much any other online game.

**********Quick Update. I frequent a forum (not sure the rules on linking to other websites so will leave it out for now) where a player has clocked the internet usage on loading up a city, it weighs in around +50mb each time, so its no wonder the servers are being hammered. Here is the quote

"Doesn't help that anytime you try to join a stupid game it downloads all your "savegame" from the stupid EA server and its liked 50mb+ of crap that should be on your comp in the ****** first place."

Absolutionis:
snip

What if buy an EA game and *gasp* enjoy it? What if absolutely none of their side nonsense (i.e Origin) bothers me?

Twilight_guy:
I am absolutely terrified of the idea of something like this actually working. Imagine if a bunch of angry gamers could force a company to have to change its game.

Took the words right out of my mouth. My only reaction to these petitions will be to point and laugh when they accomplish nothing, or go bleach white in terror if they start succeeding with any regularity.

OT: More people whining about early in life server troubles, something I long ago learned to solve 100% by never buying popular PC games on launch week. A lesson learned after the third time I had to fight with steam for hours to get a game to unlock. I miss when digital distrobution wasn't a thing.
Also: everything kortin said

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