Pentagon Levels Cyberspying Accusations At China

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Pentagon Levels Cyberspying Accusations At China

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Some cyberintrusions can be blamed directly on China's military, according to the Pentagon's report to Congress.

"China is using its computer network exploitation capability to support intelligence collection against the U.S. diplomatic, economic, and defense industrial base sectors that support U.S. national defense programs," claims the Pentagon, in a report prepared and delivered at Congress' behest. This latest accusation alleges that China's government and military are directly involved in cyberespionage, in an effort to acquire technology to fuel China's military modernization. Though China's no newcomer to the cyberspy business, this Pentagon report is the first time accusations have been leveled against Beijing directly for targeting US defense networks.

China has denied the accusations, describing them as groundless and irresponsible. "This is not beneficial to US-China mutual trust and co-operation," says Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying. "We are firmly opposed to this and have already made representations to the US side." Hua went on to say that China's defense buildup was intended to protect its national independence and sovereignty. In addition to cyberespionage, the Pentagon report alleges that Chinese ships have been issued antiship cruise missiles, developing their threat capability against American warships. According to the Pentagon, this is the first time the antiship missiles have been deployed with any kind of operational capacity. The 930 mile range of the DF-21D means it can hit targets in the Western Pacific. Other recent Chinese military improvements include stealth aircraft tests and a new aircraft carrier.

The Pentagon report is issued on an annual basis, and has been since the year 2000. China's increasing military capacity and territorial claims - most notably in the Philippines and Japan - have caused Congress considerable concern in recent years. Chinese defense spending is thought to be growing at a rate of 10% annually, inflation-adjusted; there have been some suggestions that actual outlay per annum may be growing at more than 10%. China's most recent military budget announcement, in March 2013, put the total at $114 billion, as compared to US expenditure of more than $500 billion.

Source: Wall Street Journal

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You could always hire the other team's hackers and pay them a lot more. Seems like a solid investment to me.

Well if you give a country all your debt and manufacturing jobs, of course they're gunna want more.

CrossLOPER:
You could always hire the other team's hackers and pay them a lot more. Seems like a solid investment to me.

But the whole point of using Chinese labor is because it is cheep.

Good job pentagon. China also has an interest in protecting their interests with military might. My mind is completely blown. <.<

I feel a lot of things

1) The US is spying on every goddamn country in the world. In fact, most countries are spying on one and other.
Remember this? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/11/04/norway.us.spying.probe/index.html The US was caught with spies in Norway, which is clearly the biggest threat to US securities. Seriously, if they're spying on Norway I don't see why any other country thinks they also aren't being spied on.

2) As an extension to this, why wouldn't they also be hacking and gathering info about whatever they could? There is not an ounce of doubt in my being that the US is also hacking China.

3) While this is probably likely given what we know of China, WHY should we believe the pentagon? They're a complete black box that could be feeding you a heaping shit of lies just to get citizens riled up for the inevitable cyberwar, and there's no way you can verify or validate a single goddamn thing they say.

They could tell you any fucking thing they want and you have to take it completely on faith. Screw that, I don't trust them.

Given how the US Navy is mostly responsible of guarding international waters, couldn't a little "accident" happen that cuts one or two of the undersea lines that go to China?

Given how small their own navy is compared to ours, the Chinese government might actually stop if they end up with a populace that grows angrier and angrier at the lost online connections and increased lag from the remaining bottlenecked lines.

CrossLOPER:
You could always hire the other team's hackers and pay them a lot more. Seems like a solid investment to me.

Well, the problem is of course that China is pretty much a police state. We'd need to not only offer them more money, but also use the special forces to extract them to the US, which would pretty much start an official cold war.

See, right now we've been keeping this whole "China is our friend" thing going way too long, despite their robber economy, military build up, and saber rattling about colonizing other countries. Not to mention them holding us back from taking out North Korea, they talk tough about doing something, but notice they never actually do anything, and the Kim Jongs are still in power down there even in light of the current incidents. China referring to them as "Mad Dogs" sounded good, but you'll notice nothing has really come of it.

I've been saying for over a decade now that we needed to pre-emptively strike China, at least in terms of crippling it's military production infrastructure. I do not think nuclear ICBMs are quite the concern for us that they were once upon a time (despite what others here might think) and at the end of the day we're going to have to risk that anyway since we can't just let any nuclear capable power do whatever the hell it wants, our own interests be damned. I also feel that despite what a lot of people might think, a lot of nations would join with the US in this, as the general lack of action against China has been largely prompted by the US's lack of assertiveness and unwillingness to take a lead in a stronger position regarding them. Basically if we play nice with them, so are most of our allies on their own.

As I've said, time favors The Chinese since they can out produce us, and our lack of retaliation to their spying (which is not recent, Clinton lost a ton of military tech to them) simply means that they are going to become a bigger and bigger threat and increasingly advanced as time goes on. Their Yuan class submarine, Aircraft Carrier (which is not a defensive weapon), increasing belligerance over Japanese islands which are of strategic value to the US, and similar things all point in a really bad direction.

Interestingly it should also be noted that China is fond of what amounts to technological slave labour. You might remember years ago that there was a ring "busted" where prison officials were using prisoners to farm gold and such in MMOs and then selling it and pocketing the money. The Chinese goverment shut it down allegedly, but there was apparently evidence that the Chinese goverment simply took over the operation and broadened it, as well as coming up with the idea of training Chinese prisoners in computers and then using them for other things while keeping the prisoners under close observation. Mostly conspiricy theory fodder, but it's interesting to note that cyber espionage is becoming an even bigger factor a couple years after I was hearing that garbage. I mostly think of it because of your comments about bribing the Chinese hackers, in reality I suspect the ones that are "Free" are already kind of on "our side" acting with groups like Anonymous or doing their own thing, where the ones we are having problems with are either going to be Chinese military, or otherwise under tight controls.

I also can't help but not the irony in terms of one of the first solutions being "Bribery" since that is exactly what Chinese propaganda says our first reaction to this kind of thing would be (a sign of Western, capitalist corruption to our thinking). It would counter with lots of stuff about state loyalty and honor, but in reality just tosses humanitarianism out the door and pretty much keeps a tight leash on people as much as it can to prevent it from becoming a problem. :)

Dr.Awkward:
Given how the US Navy is mostly responsible of guarding international waters, couldn't a little "accident" happen that cuts one or two of the undersea lines that go to China?

Given how small their own navy is compared to ours, the Chinese government might actually stop if they end up with a populace that grows angrier and angrier at the lost online connections and increased lag from the remaining bottlenecked lines.

I live in China right now. If the lines were cut, most people would never notice because China developed a separate "cage" and most Chinese don't venture out of the pen. This would piss off foreigners living in China and foreign companies that's for sure.

Therumancer:
I've been saying for over a decade now that we needed to pre-emptively strike China, at least in terms of crippling it's military production infrastructure.

You want to start a war with the PRC?

AC10:
I feel a lot of things

1) The US is spying on every goddamn country in the world. In fact, most countries are spying on one and other.
Remember this? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/11/04/norway.us.spying.probe/index.html The US was caught with spies in Norway, which is clearly the biggest threat to US securities. Seriously, if they're spying on Norway I don't see why any other country thinks they also aren't being spied on.

2) As an extension to this, why wouldn't they also be hacking and gathering info about whatever they could? There is not an ounce of doubt in my being that the US is also hacking China.

3) While this is probably likely given what we know of China, WHY should we believe the pentagon? They're a complete black box that could be feeding you a heaping shit of lies just to get citizens riled up for the inevitable cyberwar, and there's no way you can verify or validate a single goddamn thing they say.

They could tell you any fucking thing they want and you have to take it completely on faith. Screw that, I don't trust them.

Beat me to the punch.

Basically the US whining about how China is trying to hack into their systems doesn't hold much water when we're doing the exact same thing to any given country.

CrossLOPER:

Therumancer:
I've been saying for over a decade now that we needed to pre-emptively strike China, at least in terms of crippling it's military production infrastructure.

You want to start a war with the PRC?

He wants to launch pre-emptive strikes against the Chinese military, so technically speaking if the first strike was successful enough there would be no war since the Chinese military would cease to exist. To be honest I am also of the opinion that something needs to be done about China before they overtake the US in military terms. Put it this way I wouldn't want to be living in countries like Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, India, South Korea or any other Pacific region country when China eventually reaches the stage where they feel that the US wouldn't be able to stop them anymore. I don't know if full blown military intervention is necessarily the answer though - perhaps if we could just take down the government and somehow introduce a completely free internet with no restrictions then we might see things improve over there and that would be much preferable to seeing China start World War 3.

CrossLOPER:

Therumancer:
I've been saying for over a decade now that we needed to pre-emptively strike China, at least in terms of crippling it's military production infrastructure.

You want to start a war with the PRC?

China is a hostile enemy of the U.S., after all; doing 500 billion dollars worth of business with us annually, loaning our government 1.2 trillion dollars... they're clearly trying to take us down!

CrossLOPER:

Therumancer:
I've been saying for over a decade now that we needed to pre-emptively strike China, at least in terms of crippling it's military production infrastructure.

You want to start a war with the PRC?

Uh, yeah... I kind of just said that.

The way I see it is that China is a threat and in the middle of a huge military build up, and we're not talking defensive hardware either. The biggest limitation of China and why they have not been a threat is because despite a massive standing army they have not had the abillity to project those forces into other countries due to the lack of an effective navy. Recently they have been working on a modern navy including surface ships, aircraft carriers, and submarines to defend them with. This being combined with their increasing attempts towards missle and satellite defense and the stated intent to be able to force "conventional warfare" which would favor them. If you do a search for "China, Satellite, and Lasers" together you'll find articles going back to 2006 about China having ground based laser systems capable of blinding US military satellites. Digging further you'll find notes on efforts being made to expand these technologies into other directions to pretty much end the WMD stalemate. When you look at their internal propaganda behind "The Bamboo Curtain" they are justifying keeping running the sweatshops, factories, slave farms, and other things and feeding their wealth into the military due to promises of avenging themselves on the western world and taking over the rest of the globe as is their due right, and colonizing our lands once the cowardly shield of WMD fueled MAD is
off the table.

See, the thing is that while this isn't possible it's easy to sit back, laugh about it, and pretend it's not a problem. But if they keep banging away at it like "The Little Engine That Could" eventually they are going to get there, and we've already seen a lot of progress. Once they already have this technology and this military, we are pretty much utterly [email protected], even if we stop them we're talking global decimation of not only their people but everyone else that gets involved as well. Hence my comments about a pre-emptive strike on their military infrastructure, I'd rather start a war on our terms while it still favors us, than I would play a purely reactive game and only fight when they have all their ducks in a row. The US barely pulled off two last minute global saves against Germany, I don't want to sit around with our head in the sand and wait until the last second and hope for a skin of our teeth victory against China. We see the build up, we see the saber rattling, we see the frightening development of technology, we see them robbing our economy via copyright and trademark violations, knockoffs of our products, and similar things, we see the horrendous human rights violations, we see them involved in cyber espionage attacks against us... They have pretty much given the US dozens if not hundreds of justifications to go to war, but we've been too nice to do it, due to our own purely reactive morality.

You might not like the point, but I see a lot of similarities between China's current behavior, especially in terms of offensive military build up, and what we've seen from Germany in the past. I'd much rather gut China's infrastructure now and take the losses that would entail, than wait a couple of decades until they start invading, try and rebuild our own military infrastructure when they have countered a lot of our big tech advantages (or caught up to them), and see even more people die as a result.

Also understand I have no real intention of occupying China, or "winning the peace" or any of that crap. We don't have the manpower for that kind of a land war. Rather I'd pretty much suggest just surrounding it with as many of our anti-missle ships and subs to shoot down their limited nuclear stockpile, bomb the crap out of it's fledgeling navy and naval production facilities, obtain air superiority (one of the advantages we still have) and then just bomb the crap out of them until they agree to follow copyright and trademark laws, reform human rights policy, and agree to strict limitations on military build up and technological development in the future. Then we leave. We'd need to put few, if any, US boots on Chinese soil. Sure millions of civilians will die, but even more will die if they start the war they are angling for and start trying to colonize other nations. Besides thinning their population might actually help in the long run.

I don't expect many here to agree with me, but that's pretty much my thoughts. I mention going to war with China largely because hey... we've just caught China spying on us and stealing from us again. How many times are we going to be stupid enough to just let it go? We keep ignoring this stuff and it just leads to more of it. After our resounding retaliation for the theft of military secrets during Clinton's presidency it's not any big surprise that China sees the US military infrastructure as an all you can eat Cyber-Buffet.

AC10:
1) The US is spying on every goddamn country in the world. In fact, most countries are spying on one and other.
Remember this? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/11/04/norway.us.spying.probe/index.html The US was caught with spies in Norway, which is clearly the biggest threat to US securities. Seriously, if they're spying on Norway I don't see why any other country thinks they also aren't being spied on.

You've got to keep an eye on those fjords, they could be jihadists.

If the US doesn't like people spying on them why don't they use some of those billions of dollars in military spending on making a decent firewall and ordering all military contractors and what have you to use it? They could even try not spying on other people too. But it is human nature to want to have a bigger/sharper/pointier stick than your neighbour so I doubt they will stop any time soon.

Karloff:
China's most recent military budget announcement, in March 2013, put the total at $114 billion, as compared to US expenditure of more than $500 billion.

It is always things such as this that make me roll my eyes at the West. America thinks it's cool for them to spend $500 billion on their military budget, but then have the audacity to complain when China spends around a fifth of that on their own military.

Not to mention that it is countries such as America and European nations such as Britain that are trying to police the world, not countries such as Russia and China that we are supposed to be worried about.

China being a potential threat to the US military?

Good, I don't like the way the US pretty much has this globe in a stranglehold.

America spies on everyone, than they go and say you can't spy on us. Funny. Still, China is America's biggest threat. They're probably the best at cyber warfare. Actual military capabilities are improving all the time. They've the massive industrial base to support it all. Soon enough China will 'really' be threatening countries around it to bow to their will. Since, you know, threatening others with their nukes is kinda no option. They also have a no first strike policy.

Therumancer:
Uh, yeah... I kind of just said that.

The way I see it is that China is a threat and in the middle of a huge military build up, and we're not talking defensive hardware either. The biggest limitation of China and why they have not been a threat is because despite a massive standing army they have not had the abillity to project those forces into other countries due to the lack of an effective navy. Recently they have been working on a modern navy including surface ships, aircraft carriers, and submarines to defend them with. This being combined with their increasing attempts towards missle and satellite defense and the stated intent to be able to force "conventional warfare" which would favor them. If you do a search for "China, Satellite, and Lasers" together you'll find articles going back to 2006 about China having ground based laser systems capable of blinding US military satellites. Digging further you'll find notes on efforts being made to expand these technologies into other directions to pretty much end the WMD stalemate. When you look at their internal propaganda behind "The Bamboo Curtain" they are justifying keeping running the sweatshops, factories, slave farms, and other things and feeding their wealth into the military due to promises of avenging themselves on the western world and taking over the rest of the globe as is their due right, and colonizing our lands once the cowardly shield of WMD fueled MAD is
off the table.

See, the thing is that while this isn't possible it's easy to sit back, laugh about it, and pretend it's not a problem. But if they keep banging away at it like "The Little Engine That Could" eventually they are going to get there, and we've already seen a lot of progress. Once they already have this technology and this military, we are pretty much utterly [email protected], even if we stop them we're talking global decimation of not only their people but everyone else that gets involved as well. Hence my comments about a pre-emptive strike on their military infrastructure, I'd rather start a war on our terms while it still favors us, than I would play a purely reactive game and only fight when they have all their ducks in a row. The US barely pulled off two last minute global saves against Germany, I don't want to sit around with our head in the sand and wait until the last second and hope for a skin of our teeth victory against China. We see the build up, we see the saber rattling, we see the frightening development of technology, we see them robbing our economy via copyright and trademark violations, knockoffs of our products, and similar things, we see the horrendous human rights violations, we see them involved in cyber espionage attacks against us... They have pretty much given the US dozens if not hundreds of justifications to go to war, but we've been too nice to do it, due to our own purely reactive morality.

You might not like the point, but I see a lot of similarities between China's current behavior, especially in terms of offensive military build up, and what we've seen from Germany in the past. I'd much rather gut China's infrastructure now and take the losses that would entail, than wait a couple of decades until they start invading, try and rebuild our own military infrastructure when they have countered a lot of our big tech advantages (or caught up to them), and see even more people die as a result.

Also understand I have no real intention of occupying China, or "winning the peace" or any of that crap. We don't have the manpower for that kind of a land war. Rather I'd pretty much suggest just surrounding it with as many of our anti-missle ships and subs to shoot down their limited nuclear stockpile, bomb the crap out of it's fledgeling navy and naval production facilities, obtain air superiority (one of the advantages we still have) and then just bomb the crap out of them until they agree to follow copyright and trademark laws, reform human rights policy, and agree to strict limitations on military build up and technological development in the future. Then we leave. We'd need to put few, if any, US boots on Chinese soil. Sure millions of civilians will die, but even more will die if they start the war they are angling for and start trying to colonize other nations. Besides thinning their population might actually help in the long run.

This is militarist xenophobic nonsense.

Therumancer:
I don't expect many here to agree with me, but that's pretty much my thoughts. I mention going to war with China largely because hey... we've just caught China spying on us and stealing from us again. How many times are we going to be stupid enough to just let it go? We keep ignoring this stuff and it just leads to more of it. After our resounding retaliation for the theft of military secrets during Clinton's presidency it's not any big surprise that China sees the US military infrastructure as an all you can eat Cyber-Buffet.

Do you honestly think that the US does not engage in aggressive cyberwarefare of their own?

Yeah don't worry folks, since the US single-handedly won WWII and saved the world, we can totally just casually take out a nation of a billion people who we rely on tremendously economically and owns a sizable chunk of our debt with little trouble. All those nuclear weapons? No biggie, we'll just...surround China with submarines and shoot them all down! Problem solved. It'll go just as smooth as Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam & Korea - remember how those went? Absolutely goddamned great! Also with the evil Chinese commies vanquished, we can rest assured that taking out the government of the second largest economy in the world will have absolutely. No. Unintended. Consequences. None, none at all!

I'm sorry, I don't usually like these douchey sarcasm posts and because I went that route there's no way I'm convincing you of anything, but...Therumancer - seriously? Millions of dead people, all worth it because China was poking into our shit like we totally aren't poking into theirs and everybody else's shit - but we're allowed to, because America. The fact I think someone could seriously propose that, if you're not trolling, is a sign that we are truly deranged as a people. The fact that you can just idly wave off millions of people dead because China was threatening Uncle Sam's global domination e-peen is incredibly depressing but not too far off from the norm these days.

Of course they're spying on us, because we're spying on them right back. The thing is, based on the situation we're in, we're basically conjoined twins at this point who hate each other, but we can't be separated or we'll both die. Our economies are inexorably linked to each other at this point and if one of us falls, the entire infrastructure of the other will collapse as well.

On the note of them increasing their military might. With the way America has been so gung-ho in the past 30 years or so, and the people in power over there smart enough to know that they're considered the "biggest threat to the western world", of course they're going to have weapons and materials in place. If America seems to have no qualms about conquering Iraq and Iran, it's rather hypocritical to complain about them taking other nations as well. The only difference is, they don't need to make excuses to the public about why they're attacking them like our politicians do.

And as for the whole protecting North Korea thing... they're the only active trading country with that nation, so wanting to keep that fairly free money is not wrong of them. Now if push came to shove, and Kim Jong Derp decided to do something stupid, like attack us, I'm certain China would be more concerned about keeping the debt with us in place than letting that hole in the ground nation survive. But the odds of that even happening are so astronomically low, since NK's leader is just stage performing anyway for his public. The world is the same no matter where you look, everyone may dance differently, but it's always to the same tune.

(Just for reference, I love my country with all my heart... it's the people in it I'm beginning to despise.)

CrossLOPER:
[

This is militarist xenophobic nonsense.

Yes, obviously we've been hallucinating China's military build up, human rights violations, and other things. China hasn't been refusing to acknowlege copyrights and patents and making trillions off of knocking off products at our expense... and of course I'm sure their new Aircraft Carrier, Submarines, and anti-Satellite based weapons are
actually magical bushes growing lollipops.

Or in short, we have nothing to discuss. You obviously don't want to believe it, and that's fine. I would rather remain grounded in reality and hope more people wake up before it's too late. Sometimes the truth isn't politically correct.

See, you might have a case if China was involved in doing nothing but creating defensive technologies, submarines, aircraft carriers, and things like that are offensive weapons however, as is their naval build up, especially with a focus on ships that can carry their troops en-masse outside of their borders if the need arises. If there was just a bit of espionage slap fighting going on, that would also be no big deal I suppose, but we are looking at it in the context of China's over all behavior.

That said I *am* a militant, but not a xenophobe, I merely call it like it is. I don't generally begrudge people harmless differances, but this isn't exactly harmless. It's pretty much exactly what we saw from Germany twice, while people went "oh gee, it's no big deal, totally harmless... don't be a militant Xenophobe, it's not like Germany is actually going to invade anyone... they obviously just want a huge offensive military force to promote more efficient tulip picking".

image
My response to this is: "Stuxnet"

STFU guys our country does it too.

Therumancer:

Yes, obviously we've been hallucinating China's military build up, human rights violations, and other things. China hasn't been refusing to acknowlege copyrights and patents and making trillions off of knocking off products at our expense... and of course I'm sure their new Aircraft Carrier, Submarines, and anti-Satellite based weapons are
actually magical bushes growing lollipops.

Or in short, we have nothing to discuss. You obviously don't want to believe it, and that's fine. I would rather remain grounded in reality and hope more people wake up before it's too late. Sometimes the truth isn't politically correct.

See, you might have a case if China was involved in doing nothing but creating defensive technologies, submarines, aircraft carriers, and things like that are offensive weapons however, as is their naval build up, especially with a focus on ships that can carry their troops en-masse outside of their borders if the need arises. If there was just a bit of espionage slap fighting going on, that would also be no big deal I suppose, but we are looking at it in the context of China's over all behavior.

That said I *am* a militant, but not a xenophobe, I merely call it like it is. I don't generally begrudge people harmless differances, but this isn't exactly harmless. It's pretty much exactly what we saw from Germany twice, while people went "oh gee, it's no big deal, totally harmless... don't be a militant Xenophobe, it's not like Germany is actually going to invade anyone... they obviously just want a huge offensive military force to promote more efficient tulip picking".

I'm not denying, it's just that your entire thesis is centered around eternal worldwide US military superiority and your wish to keep others "under" the US. This is flawed thinking.

All of this comes down to everyone wanting to live their lives the way they want to live them and being afraid that some guy is going to come over and blast it all away. Still can't wait for the day people realize how much of a self perpetuating cycle all this spying and fear mongering is.

CrossLOPER:

I'm not denying, it's just that your entire thesis is centered around eternal worldwide US military superiority and your wish to keep others "under" the US. This is flawed thinking.

You mean the fact that I want to keep the US as the dominant world power, and have no problem with removing threats to the US and it's interests? Yes, that is true. Nothing at all flawed about that, as most people would feel the same way in our position. Those who don't think so, are lying to themselves.

At the end of the day, I do not want China in paticular to wind up becoming a more dominant global power, to overcome the US, or the western world in general. China of course wants to become as powerful as possible, and become the dominant world power, and pretty much control the world, towards that end it's involved in a massive military build
up, and could very well succeed if we decide to take an entirely reactive approach as opposed to shutting down their military build up before it reaches that level.

All of this is a very Pro-US/Pro-Western view, I don't deny that. I very specifically do not want someone else to become powerful or take over the world in order to maintain my own nation/culture. At the end of the day this is reality, typically there is no real good or evil when it comes to warfare, simply "us or them" and like pretty much everyone given that choice I am going to pick "us" and favor my own side every time.

On a more longer term level however, I am someone that believes that the world DOES need to be unified into a single goverment/superculture for the basic survival of humanity, it is the only way we are going to engage in serious space exploration, expansion, and colonization (which is whole differant discussion). Ultimatly I feel that most of this will happen slowly, over a period of time, due to the spread of ideas, eventually enough people will more or less get together and then wipe out the dissenters leading to the world humanity needs. To an extent we see it happening already. This isn't quite as dark as it sounds, but it does have it's bad elements.

Right now though the US needs to remain the dominant power and cultural force for this to really work, we need to pursue our own interests, and ultimatly do whatever is nessicary to see that our ideas reach and influance as many people as possible, to keep things as peacful as possible.

Now, before you misunderstand I believe in the final equasion every nation is pretty much going to dissolve, including the USA itself, with a world goverment being created.... speaking in the long term. It's simply American principles (which are a little differant from the actual practice of the USA) that it will operate under. Right now it's pretty much the best possible option for that to happen.

To put things into perspective, at least in principle the US's moral ideals and belief in basic human rights, freedom, and equality are what is going to allow the most people to live under the highest degree of freedom. A nation like China could also in theory unify the planet, but their central philsophy is one of their own superiority on a fundemental ethnic level, the nation and the ethnicities making it up largely being one and the same, the same can be said of Japan and a lot of other nations, many of which are quite powerful. Should China pretty much take over the world, their principles would ultimatly have all other ethnicities as second class citizens at the best, indeed a lot of it's rhetoric today is less about any kind of high humantarian principles, as much as it is about avenging itself on a
world that it feels has wronged it.

Is the US perfect? Not really, but viewed objectively it's the best shot humanity has as far as principles go. If it wasn't I'm more than critical enough to say so.

That said, the US does need to operate in a fashion to ensure it's own survival, so those principles can continue, and be spread. That means acting aggressively in it's own interests.

When I talk about going to war with China, understand I don't want to conquer China, rule it, or kill everyone there for the lulz. I simply believe in rendering it fundementally harmless to the rest of the world, and opening it up to outside ideas, and of course due to the damage it's robber economy has been doing, forcing it to abide by international trade laws and stop stealing ideas from the US and knocking them off. While millions of people might die if I did things my way, at the end of the day not much would change, it's just China would have a lot more in the way of free speech and internal human rights (well the survivors would), and it wouldn't have any kind of offensive military abillity capable of threatening anyone. It would pretty much continue to self govern while simply providing no threat to anyone.

In the case of China in paticular, understand that I don't think China represents any direct threat to the US in the short term. If they start invading countries they are more than likely to hit Europe first before trying to reach accross the entire bloody globe to try and fight the USA directly. If allowed to continue unchecked though they are going to build up the force to start invading, and if they manage to negate the threat of ICBM delivered WMD and the resulting MAD, the sheer monolithic size of their military would allow them to easily overrun a lot of nations and have a good chance of taking over the world, including the USA, which would probably be one of the last nations to fall due to simple geography if nothing else. It's also quite possible we'd stop them reactively, but by that point a lot more people would die.

Truthfully I think a surprising number of people are coming to the same basic opinion of China right now, but it's very slow, and hardly a "major" point of view which is why we've wound up with dweebs like Obama in the White House, letting China and Kim Jong Un bend him over the desk in the oval office and have their way with him. I mean seriously Kim Jong Un pretty much just spanked the US when you get down to it, we put down a line, Obama backed down, China got involved and talked some smack about a "Mad Dog" but didn't do anything. At the end of the day Kim Jong Un made us change our plans to accomodate him, threatened us with nuclear missles, and had absolutly nothing happen to him. For all the smack talk he's probably high fiving Chinese leadership behind everyone's back.... the big question right now is whether enough people are going to wake up in time for it to make a differance. As I also said, I think a lot of allies would join the US if we actually took direct action instead of waffling like we do, as it would help serve their best interests. After all the current status quo isn't terrible as the US has largely left most countries to their own devices (far more than we should), it's a lot better than China invading your country, killing all of it's people they can find, and then colonizing the land, which is pretty much their endgame for their military build up. Under their leadership anyone conquered who survives is likely to be a second or third class citizen for not being of the proper ethnicity.... people like to overlook exactly how racist the Chinese are... picking on rednecks in US trailer parks while not bothering to look at entire nations of xenocidal racists sharpening their swords for revenge over perceived sleights.

This is going to turn into another cold war in which each side has access to all the embarrassing pictures from the other sides' hard drive. I was in a situation like this name naked pictures of my ex-girlfriend once. Trust me when I say this will lead to mutually assured destruction.

Therumancer:
When I talk about going to war with China, understand I don't want to conquer China, rule it, or kill everyone there for the lulz. I simply believe in rendering it fundementally harmless to the rest of the world, and opening it up to outside ideas, and of course due to the damage it's robber economy has been doing, forcing it to abide by international trade laws and stop stealing ideas from the US and knocking them off. While millions of people might die if I did things my way, at the end of the day not much would change, it's just China would have a lot more in the way of free speech and internal human rights (well the survivors would), and it wouldn't have any kind of offensive military abillity capable of threatening anyone. It would pretty much continue to self govern while simply providing no threat to anyone.

So just go over there and force them to recognize our ideas on human rights and democracy? That was painful when we did it in a country with 1/10th of our population. I'm sure it'll work well with a nation four times as large as us.

Erm... lets NOT talk about how countries are a threat and how we should attack them and stuff, okay?

War is um, bad. Innocent people always die. That price is always too high. Just because you're scared is no excuse.

Let's not have another war... ALREADY.

And we're helping to fund China's hackers by buying billions in goods manufactured there. So... yay.

You thought our relationship with the USSR was a Cold War... we didn't have nearly this kind of death-grip-economic-co-dependence thing going with our Soviet friends.

Therumancer:
*snip*

So another country builds up it's military to anything near yours so it can defend itself and you want to attack it. No wonder the US is seen as hostile to the rest of the world. Your not the world police, nor do you have the right to go around and enforce yourselves onto others. The irony being that you want to do this to protect yourself from an 'agressive' enemy and yet the most agressive nation on earth for the last 50 years has been the USA, you've invaded more countries since WW2 than Germany did in WW2. Think about that for a second, then think why a country that doesn't agree with your morals may want a military that could rival yours to defend itself.

I may not agree with how China runs itself, but it's their country and as long as they keep it that way it's their nation and values not ours.

Rex Dark:
China being a potential threat to the US military?

Good, I don't like the way the US pretty much has this globe in a stranglehold.

Agreed 100%, I'd like to see more countries (UK/Europe etc) stand up and say enough is enough. The US needs to be reminded the world isn't theirs to do with as they wish.

Therumancer:

You mean the fact that I want to keep the US as the dominant world power, and have no problem with removing threats to the US and it's interests? Yes, that is true. Nothing at all flawed about that, as most people would feel the same way in our position. Those who don't think so, are lying to themselves.

At the end of the day, I do not want China in paticular to wind up becoming a more dominant global power, to overcome the US, or the western world in general. China of course wants to become as powerful as possible, and become the dominant world power, and pretty much control the world, towards that end it's involved in a massive military build
up, and could very well succeed if we decide to take an entirely reactive approach as opposed to shutting down their military build up before it reaches that level.

All of this is a very Pro-US/Pro-Western view, I don't deny that. I very specifically do not want someone else to become powerful or take over the world in order to maintain my own nation/culture. At the end of the day this is reality, typically there is no real good or evil when it comes to warfare, simply "us or them" and like pretty much everyone given that choice I am going to pick "us" and favor my own side every time.

On a more longer term level however, I am someone that believes that the world DOES need to be unified into a single goverment/superculture for the basic survival of humanity, it is the only way we are going to engage in serious space exploration, expansion, and colonization (which is whole differant discussion). Ultimatly I feel that most of this will happen slowly, over a period of time, due to the spread of ideas, eventually enough people will more or less get together and then wipe out the dissenters leading to the world humanity needs. To an extent we see it happening already. This isn't quite as dark as it sounds, but it does have it's bad elements.

Right now though the US needs to remain the dominant power and cultural force for this to really work, we need to pursue our own interests, and ultimatly do whatever is nessicary to see that our ideas reach and influance as many people as possible, to keep things as peacful as possible.

Now, before you misunderstand I believe in the final equasion every nation is pretty much going to dissolve, including the USA itself, with a world goverment being created.... speaking in the long term. It's simply American principles (which are a little differant from the actual practice of the USA) that it will operate under. Right now it's pretty much the best possible option for that to happen.

To put things into perspective, at least in principle the US's moral ideals and belief in basic human rights, freedom, and equality are what is going to allow the most people to live under the highest degree of freedom. A nation like China could also in theory unify the planet, but their central philsophy is one of their own superiority on a fundemental ethnic level, the nation and the ethnicities making it up largely being one and the same, the same can be said of Japan and a lot of other nations, many of which are quite powerful. Should China pretty much take over the world, their principles would ultimatly have all other ethnicities as second class citizens at the best, indeed a lot of it's rhetoric today is less about any kind of high humantarian principles, as much as it is about avenging itself on a
world that it feels has wronged it.

Is the US perfect? Not really, but viewed objectively it's the best shot humanity has as far as principles go. If it wasn't I'm more than critical enough to say so.

That said, the US does need to operate in a fashion to ensure it's own survival, so those principles can continue, and be spread. That means acting aggressively in it's own interests.

When I talk about going to war with China, understand I don't want to conquer China, rule it, or kill everyone there for the lulz. I simply believe in rendering it fundementally harmless to the rest of the world, and opening it up to outside ideas, and of course due to the damage it's robber economy has been doing, forcing it to abide by international trade laws and stop stealing ideas from the US and knocking them off. While millions of people might die if I did things my way, at the end of the day not much would change, it's just China would have a lot more in the way of free speech and internal human rights (well the survivors would), and it wouldn't have any kind of offensive military abillity capable of threatening anyone. It would pretty much continue to self govern while simply providing no threat to anyone.

In the case of China in paticular, understand that I don't think China represents any direct threat to the US in the short term. If they start invading countries they are more than likely to hit Europe first before trying to reach accross the entire bloody globe to try and fight the USA directly. If allowed to continue unchecked though they are going to build up the force to start invading, and if they manage to negate the threat of ICBM delivered WMD and the resulting MAD, the sheer monolithic size of their military would allow them to easily overrun a lot of nations and have a good chance of taking over the world, including the USA, which would probably be one of the last nations to fall due to simple geography if nothing else. It's also quite possible we'd stop them reactively, but by that point a lot more people would die.

Truthfully I think a surprising number of people are coming to the same basic opinion of China right now, but it's very slow, and hardly a "major" point of view which is why we've wound up with dweebs like Obama in the White House, letting China and Kim Jong Un bend him over the desk in the oval office and have their way with him. I mean seriously Kim Jong Un pretty much just spanked the US when you get down to it, we put down a line, Obama backed down, China got involved and talked some smack about a "Mad Dog" but didn't do anything. At the end of the day Kim Jong Un made us change our plans to accomodate him, threatened us with nuclear missles, and had absolutly nothing happen to him. For all the smack talk he's probably high fiving Chinese leadership behind everyone's back.... the big question right now is whether enough people are going to wake up in time for it to make a differance. As I also said, I think a lot of allies would join the US if we actually took direct action instead of waffling like we do, as it would help serve their best interests. After all the current status quo isn't terrible as the US has largely left most countries to their own devices (far more than we should), it's a lot better than China invading your country, killing all of it's people they can find, and then colonizing the land, which is pretty much their endgame for their military build up. Under their leadership anyone conquered who survives is likely to be a second or third class citizen for not being of the proper ethnicity.... people like to overlook exactly how racist the Chinese are... picking on rednecks in US trailer parks while not bothering to look at entire nations of xenocidal racists sharpening their swords for revenge over perceived sleights.

A war is not feasible, is not necessary, and would result in unmanageable global crises.

Again, this is militaristic xenophobic nonsense.

Karloff:
...and a new aircraft carrier.

calling the Riga/Varyag/Liaoning "new" is a serious stretch...

that carrier is 25 years old.

Therumancer:
*snip*

Chinese military spending is between 1.6-1.8% of GDP and has been static at that level for the last decade (taking into account inflation and GDP growth etc) and for the sake of comparison military spending of 2% of GDP is the stated requirement for post cold war NATO membership...in other words they are spending no more than "anyone else" does...except the US which spends 4.7% of GDP...

there is no Chinese "massive military build up".

there's a modernisation program (because they have money to spend on it now) but there is no "massive military build up".

and the Chinese have has no interest in "taking over the world".

they way you talk...it's just not part of who the Chinese are...at all.

simply put they just don't think like that and they have more than enough of the world and more enough of it's people to deal with already (to the point the countries sheer size has always been considered a major governmental headache and they are quite infamously engaged in trying to keep the population numbers they have to govern down).

it's crystal clear from that post you know next to absolutely nothing about Chinese "philsophy", their guiding "principles" or their national character and i've seldom read such a bad interpretation of a geopolitical situation and that's saying something as i've generally spent most of my time here in R&P...

People in this thread have already commented on the utter hypocrisy of the US when it comes to spying, so I won't go further into that.

I do, however, find it absolutely HILARIOUS that the US has decided to step up the anti-Chinese saber-rattling right now, just when China has decided that they don't wanna spend any more money buying worthless treasury bonds from America and bailing out America's endless debt that they will probably never pay back, the American government has chosen to respond to this as if it were a fucking act of terrorism.

The hypocrisy and obvious imperialist sentiment makes me wanna hurl.

It's no wonder that America feels that it's their duty to police the entire world, they evidently also feel that they OWN it.

Therumancer:
snip

Christ.

There's so much wrong with your sentiment that it would take me all day to pull it apart, so I won't bother.

Suffice to say that you're a hypocrite, a saber-rattler and that you don't have an INCH of moral ground to stand on.

Is that what war will become on the seas? Not even in the same time-zone, but the battle rages.

None of this surprises me. Though, I would be surprised if it did develop into armed conflict within the next 15 years.

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