Teenagers Kill Child in "Mortal Kombat" Murder

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Okay, whoa, Geoffry, you don't believe in free will?
SO THAT MEANS: You believe this was SUPPSOED to happen, some godlike figure, called Destiny, (boy she's hot) decided two dumbass bastards will get drunk, play MK, kill an innocent child, and blame a video game. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!? Cause that's definitely what you typed! (figuratively of course.)
On the other hand we could look at it the other way.
No free will, we are only doing what we are commanded to by some outside force, destiny and fate don't exhist, so all that's left is alchohol, and MK, since there's no need for them to be mentally disturbed of course.
So, if the latter is true by your psot, then you DO belive mortal Kombat caused this, alchohol was just an accesory.
You have practically just stated that the girl died for NO REASON other than that SHE WAS MEANT TO, or DESERVED TO.
I had trouble seeing the point of your posts before, but apparently if free will doesn't exhist, than you believe than yes, the video game did it.
You may not have meant that, but that's DEFINITELY what you have said.

The idea of free will is a touchy subject however, and they usually turn into religeous battles and flame wars. So, I'll just say, we have control over our actions, wether anything is set in stone or not, is for Socrates.

If Mortal Kombat turns you into a killer does Final Fantasy turn you gay?

GrungeHead:
If Mortal Kombat turns you into a killer does Final Fantasy turn you gay?

Hasn't yet.

We have to accept free will, because the understanding of the lack of it leads to maddness and the collapse of civilization.

I find it interesting that none have brought up the teenagers parents in this particular discussion. They where 17 and 16 at the time and not even in Sweden would it be legal for them to be drinking. I suspect that these two individuals could have turned out to be normal healthy members of society if their parents had instilled upon them a certain sense of responsibility and a fear of consequences. Since they lacked the required amount of both to stop themselves from doing what even psychotics know is against societies rules somewhere, someone failed. That's the person or persons I would like to have a talk with in a dark alley, to thank them personally for their laziness which resulted in the complete destruction in three lives.

In case people are wondering, they are facing 48 years in prison if convicted.

MrCIA:
I suspect that these two individuals could have turned out to be normal healthy members of society if their parents had instilled upon them a certain sense of responsibility and a fear of consequences. Since they lacked the required amount of both to stop themselves from doing what even psychotics know is against societies rules somewhere, someone failed.

Thus is the case for 98% of assholes in the world.

I find It DISGUSTING that none of you have said "I feel sorry, for that little girl" or "that's sad" but instead go on to be upset about the placement of blame on Mortal Kombat.

None of you where with those people on the night and you don't know if they said "hey if this is done in MK then its ok to do this on this little girl", which would make it the games fault and those two idiots fault.

Or they could have been pissed and just thought it world be cool to kill this kid and then their lawyer recomended they blame in it on a well known violent game.

Placing blame on things has been happening for a long time and its nothing new and will not change anything, so just ignore it and relax.

I get a little bit angry that Mk is being blamed but i feel even more angry that somthing like this would happen regardless of what caused it.

Well at least they weren't listening to Marilyn Manson, playing Doom, and watching horror movies, they may have killed the whole town and nobody would have heard about it until three weeks from now. There is no drug or video game on the planet that makes you kill people, that is a private decision and has nothing to do with it. The only thing video games do is make you aware of violence; the lynch-pin is whether the person knows the difference between (and I hate to use Right and Wrong, because cannibalism is a rite of passage in some cultures and it's considered a mortal sin in Catholicism as an example. What I can say, is that knowing that the law will punish you for certain actions and knowing that some actions are very undesirable to others is a very present force in our society and necessary to various extents) right and wrong, if they have no concept of this, violence and murder carry no consequence or meaning. If a person is mentally unable to recognize and abide those consequences and laws they deserve what they get; the real problem is that the meaning of violence was never made clear enough to these two apparently, it's either that or they're just common criminals who decide that it's easier to not follow the law and hope they don't get caught. My question is, where were their parents, if they just didn't have time to prevent this, they're equally responsible for not paying enough attention or keeping them supervised. If they couldn't afford daycare and they couldn't supervise their children they probably shouldn't have had children. I'm not saying un-supervised children will kill each other or themselves; I'm saying un-supervised children generally are more apt to accidentally hurt themselves or others because of their inexperience and lack of knowledge. Video games give people knowledge of how people and things can be hurt; it doesn't teach them when to hurt things or why to hurt things or even if it's necessary or not, that's up to everybody else, especially parents, to complete that knowledge.

TheNecroswanson

Personally, I think free will and destiny really don't make much sense anyway. Really, think about it, if you have free will and you think you have all the power in the world to decide your actions, then it could just as easily be said that your destined to think you have all the power to make your own decisions when you make them; but every decision you make no matter how free it may seem has already been predetermined by "Fate" or "Destiny". You're just changing the responsibility to something that can't be proven, the only way "Destiny" matters is if you had an opportunity to go back and make different decisions, proving you can change what has already been done, but you can't prove it either way, so it's simply little more than the glass is half empty or half full. Even if Fate decided you were going to chainsaw yourself 18 of your neighbors you were destined to get the chair. The jury are destined to think you are destined to kill more people anyway; or maybe you just went off the handle and the jury made the decision that your too dangerous to live because you're brutally violent and can't seem to tell the difference between what makes you somebody people will dislike and what makes you somebody they will dislike. The outcome is the same.

I summon Jack Thompson!

They should of blamed Tekken. At least there is a little girl in that game to bet up.

In all seriousness, this is alway going to happen no matter waht we do. I mean both murder and blaming it on movies and games.

Fire Daemon:
I find It DISGUSTING that none of you have said "I feel sorry, for that little girl" or "that's sad" but instead go on to be upset about the placement of blame on Mortal Kombat.

Just because nobody said that they feel sorry for a little girl who was beaten to death doesn't mean they didn't feel sorry for or even awful that this happened, it's not your place to try and put guilt on members of an internet forum.

The worst insult I feel is that they can just say: "Mortal Kombat" and all of a sudden you have hundreds of thousands of mothers all over the world going to burn copies of Mortal Kombat while their children are at home, alone. All this doesn't do anything to solve the main issue here, so not only are they guilty of murder, they themselves or their lawyers are blaming a video-game for their actions instead of putting light on underage drinking, domestic violence and the lack of education for both in schools and from parents. Parents end up all think they're doing a great job, so if they just don't buy Marilyn Manson cds and super Nintendo their kids will practically raise themselves if they tell them to look both ways before crossing the road, where if they took as much time to do that as they did finding recreation, it wouldn't matter whether their kids listen to John Denver or Cannibal Corpse they'd still know the difference between what they should do and what they shouldn't. Of course their sweet little angels didn't beat a little girl to death, they told them to look both ways, it must have been demonic possession or Doom or that man that looks like a women who sells records or Mortal Kombat or Arnold Schwarzenegger movies or Homosexuals or Jews. If one person could have benefited from that news story talking more about underage alcohol control or domestic violence and how to stop it, it would have made a change for the better. Maybe one liquor-store worker wouldn't let somebody who is obviously underage and misguided buy alcohol, or one parent talking to their kids and making sure they know why violence isn't something they should like or want to do to somebody else. But instead it was just some wackos who played too many video games, and the message and cause is ignored and nothing changes.

Hell, I do moves out of Mortal Combat all the time. Like punching a guy's head clean off or turning into an anteater and eating him. Isn't beheading him with a hat one of the options? And flashing them to death?

A pox on the sensationalist corporate puppet who started this, this blasphemy.

Fire Daemon:
I find It DISGUSTING that none of you have said "I feel sorry, for that little girl" or "that's sad" but instead go on to be upset about the placement of blame on Mortal Kombat.

I'm pretty sure everyone does feel that it's sad that she died in such a horrible way. It really doesn't need to be said. Otherwise, you'd have a lot more posts simply saying "that's sad" . but then again, posts that merely state the simple "blaming this on Mortal Kombat is retarded." without elaborating, are pretty much doing the same thing.

Duck Sandwich:

I'm pretty sure everyone does feel that it's sad that she died in such a horrible way. It really doesn't need to be said. Otherwise, you'd have a lot more posts simply saying "that's sad" . but then again, posts that merely state the simple "blaming this on Mortal Kombat is retarded." without elaborating, are pretty much doing the same thing.

I've seen this on a lot of other websites and I feel like no one really cares about anything but the way games are being blamed.

But like I said earlier, this will blow over untill something else happens and then no one will care about this anymore.

I would really like to see an american news article that read "Poor parenting results in death of 7 year old" instead of "mortal kombat makes causes death of seven year old"

Duck Sandwich:
If people have no free will, then they have no choice but to act in whatever way that fate chooses. Fate is a sadistic bastard, then, and all the gang-rapists, drug dealers, suicide bombers, etc. are just puppets of its strings. Why should they be punished for things they have no control over?

Because punishment for things that are deemed socially unacceptable is part of the mathematical iteration. If you have an iterative function that is trying to find equilibrium, you don't quit after iteration 3 doesn't give you the answer. You keep iterating.

Whether free will exists or not is debatable. I don't think we can prove whether it does or doesn't exist at this point. I believe in free will, but then again, maybe that's just me being naive and stupid.

I made that comment about my personal belief because I thought it would help clarify why I might argue the way I am. And, I know that it is nothing more than a personal belief. While I think you're silly for believing in it, I don't know that I'm any more right than you are on the issue.

That is, unless of course, the Denver Post is lying. That possibility isn't too farfetched, considering the general public's "OMG videogames are evil!" mindset.

I have been keeping that possibility in the forefront of my mind this entire time, which is why I am hesitant to jump to any conclusions surrounding the children initiating the scapegoating of the videogames.

What makes it hard to empathize is the fact that we don't know WHY they killed the girl. Or HOW they could have been influenced to do it. There's the whole Mortal Kombat thing which it seems that we all agree is a load of crap.

As I said to Slurms before, it is not that empathy would be easy or necessarily effective in this case, my issue is that people are actively trying not to.

Then there's the "I was drunk" thing. Maybe it WAS because they got drunk. Maybe. Being drunk can lead to violence sometimes. But even then, they CHOSE to get drunk.

All for holding people accountable for what happens while they are drunk, but I think it also informs criminal intent.

*Note: The bits of your post that I left out are things that I essentially agreed with, so I didn't have any comment to make. Apologies to the Escapist for violating forum rules, I couldn't think of a more effective way to respond.

I'll just not get into the free will thing, because it seems like a horrible derailment of a topic that could instead bring up important issues, and not tired old "everything happens for a reason" crap (that at best shows that whoever destiny or god is, he or she is a complete jackoff).

Of course, there is little to add here to how it has been shown in media. Underage drinkers with reports of abuse kill a kid, and it's videogames' fault.

However, will most people understand this? If it's front-paged, black on white, size 72 fonts: "SISTER AND BOYFRIEND KILL DAUGHTER, TRAINED ON VIDEOGAMES". How many people will read the article and go "Huh. Well this is stupid, it's clearly not videogames' fault."...
Too few, is my guess. The media isn't only doing this because it's popular, it's what people want.

Humans always want to shift blame, as people have said before.
It never leads to anything good. Only things like oppression and genocide. Most recently in big politics, blame was shifted from small groups of people to two nations, so the almighty US of A could go in and bomb the flying crap out of them and kill as many people as possible. (The second shift of blame, "eh...Iraq is terrorists! Really, seriously! they have WMDs and everything!" reeks of Bushie trying to follow in daddy's footsteps, and possibly clean up some of daddy's stupid mistakes to boot. But that's another story entirely)

So...what can videogames do? Mostly wait until the next big evil grips the youth of the world, when I was younger I remember cellphones were supposed to turn children's heads into giant balls of cancer. Now nobody lifts an eyebrow if an eight year old uses one.

So, we just bide our time and something more evil than videogames will come along, and we'll be forgotten and thus accepted.

I don't think it's actually the popular belief that video games are evil. Talk to some real people sometime, just bother someone on the street with a clipboard in hand and they'll probably be willing to answer one question without much fuss.

Games are not the villain of the people anymore, if ever indeed they were. But they are still the favorite bugbear of the popular media. Like the preachers that go to colleges and start talking smack about the most controversial subjects in the most incendiary and disrespectful ways, those who put out headlines like this are merely looking to rile. Getting people talking about how everyone is blaming video games is still getting people to talk about your newspaper. Getting people to buy your newspaper because they want to show their friends what an outrageous claim you're making is still getting people to buy your newspaper.

It's a little cynical, sure, but I mean, really. Can any of you think of a person you've met who believes to this day that video games are significantly predisposing people to violent behavior? Jack Thompson doesn't count, if you've had the misfortune of actually meeting him in person.

TheNecroswanson:
Okay, whoa, Geoffry, you don't believe in free will?
SO THAT MEANS: You believe this was SUPPSOED to happen, some godlike figure, called Destiny, (boy she's hot) decided two dumbass bastards will get drunk, play MK, kill an innocent child, and blame a video game. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!? Cause that's definitely what you typed! (figuratively of course.)

That is not what I'm saying. Your godlike Destiny scenario still involves free will, just not human free will. I do not think the little girl's death was intended, or supposed, to happen. I made the comment about free will because it is a core philosophical difference that might have an effect on the way I view the situation, and provides an avenue for insight into what I'm saying. The above comment ignores everything else I've said, and makes lots of assumptions about a single comment I made, which on the whole, wasn't the point.

On the other hand we could look at it the other way.
No free will, we are only doing what we are commanded to by some outside force, destiny and fate don't exhist, so all that's left is alchohol, and MK, since there's no need for them to be mentally disturbed of course.
So, if the latter is true by your psot, then you DO belive mortal Kombat caused this, alchohol was just an accesory.
You have practically just stated that the girl died for NO REASON other than that SHE WAS MEANT TO, or DESERVED TO.
I had trouble seeing the point of your posts before, but apparently if free will doesn't exhist, than you believe than yes, the video game did it.
You may not have meant that, but that's DEFINITELY what you have said.

As mentioned, by me, multiple times, I have serious doubts that Mortal Kombat had anything to do with it. I am also not ruling out the possibility that the children were mentally disturbed (just pointing out what I thought was a set of knee-jerk reactions poorly informed by the available evidence). I think the girl probably died for SEVERAL reasons, none of which include "deserving to" or that "she was meant to."

Also, you may not have MEANT to say that you're a golden elephant, but that's DEFINITELY what you just said. Well, at least that's the way I read it. Maybe I'm missing something? No, no, can't be... My comprehension is perfect! Why would you say you were a golden elephant? That's absurd. Only silver and bronze elephants can interface with the internet. You must be wrong.

Because New Media Are Evil, most people in charge of older media will try to push anything they can on it to make the first statement true. The alcohol aspect was underplayed because they want to avoid angering adults who choose to drink, but because only kids play video games, they are an acceptable target as far as most newsrooms are concerned.

They only claimed the video game to get out at an insanity plea. I would love to be a vigilante and kill, but that would be too easy.

How we punish them the "legal" way:
-Put them in adult prisons
-guy gets butt "loved" till the end of 42 years
-the girl's reproduction organs become die and she become a vicious death-cage-fighter-loser. [Except because we cannot put her in one of those nice caged-and-padded luxury cages we see on TV, she gets to fight in a prison cell and we can TOTALLY make a game from it :) ]

Yes, Soy Pop, that'll totally address the numerous issues that went on in this case. Prison rape and sterility.

Okay...blah blah blah, let's blame the game. How about let's blame the F'n morons who brought these people into the world! The parents! Way to go bringing up your dumbass kids and teaching them NOT to kill their sister. Does that really need to be a lesson? For the love of god, if you want to place blame, look no further than the parents who have "raised" them. This goes back to a previous post I had about needing to get permission to have children. This world is heading towards the movie Idiocracy (2006) at an alarming rate and it's because fricken idiots are having children and can't teach them morals or ethics. The media just blows shit out of proportion because it's a better story that way.

I say, take the guy out back and shoot him, then post it everywhere and put in big letters "IF YOU DO THIS *insert rape, murder, child molestation, etc* THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU...YOU'VE BEEN WARNED". Our country has turned into a bunch of new-age political pansies that would rather bitch about something than actually change the core of the problem.

Been looking to sign up on here for a while and the whole video game violence thing has finally clinched it.

As the gaming community, its almost like we have no say in matters like this because we're "part of the problem", yet the majority of the valid points have been made in this one thread alone. The majority of the "mortal kombat" moves used were not even moves from the game, and video game murder is a good way to get insanity plea, and you'll also get the occasional idiot backing your case.

I've played the gta series since it came out X years ago and i was a child. Since that day i have not once had the urge to swerve onto the pavement and plow through pedestrians cos the guys in front of me are slow and a good police chase would really top my day off. I have also not learnt how to wield a rifle by usin my mouse and keybord, nor my control pad...

I can understand how people with "damaged brains" could use games as a way to learn violence, but seriously, you can learn how to be violent from a frikkin book, should we burn the librarys as well?

Of course, It's not the booze, it's the videogames.

If anything this is more like Killer Instinct. The guy just inputted a combo and things got out of control. Obviously.

Seriously though, there are some times where video games may have given ideas to already deranged individuals, but there just isn't any link whatsoever between the killing and anything in Mortal Kombat except that there's a punch and a kick button. I'm really surprised this isn't an article about teen alcohol abuse. That seems like the prevalent issue here.

Geoffrey42:
Why would you say you were a golden elephant? .

Because I am.

ANYHOW, on another note, you probably don't see what's behind what you wrote because you wrote it, the subconcious always says more about us than the concious.

You wrote what you wrote and I questioned what you wrote, with MUCH scrutiny, as pretty much all your posts pointed to you believing there being no real answer as to why she died. But whatever, I won't hold it against yuh, being made of gold and all.
It's simply that's what it came across as. If I offended you I had no intention to, but from what you wrote, that's what I saw.

TheNecroswanson:

Geoffrey42:
Why would you say you were a golden elephant? .

Because I am.

The truth comes out. I'm sure we all had our suspicions.

And the problem with what you said was that you left no space for your own mistakes. For instance, I read the same post that you did, and didn't come to the conclusion that Geoffrey thought that there's a guiding force in the universe that wanted this girl to die. Mainly because there're different definitions of the phrase "free will" that he may have been using. It's fine for you to scrutinise the words and meanings of others, but you come across as arrogant, which doesn't help your case. Try leaving some room for self-doubt, acknowledge the possibility that there is more than one way to understand a statement, and people might have less problems with what you say.

Anyway, people don't seem to be noticing that it doesn't take a deranged psycopath who regularly burns orphanages and rapes kittens to do something like this. The two kids that did this, simply didn't think that beating up a seven-year-old girl was that big a deal. A case of sibling rivalry, taken too far. They'd done it before, and she hadn't died. This time, they got too forceful. Once they realised what they'd done, they tried to resucitate her, they called an ambulance. If they didn't care at all about the girl, then I don't think they would have done this.

Besides, hurting people is fun. All humans think so. These two - like so many others - just couldn't control themselves enough.

Kaisharga:
I don't think it's actually the popular belief that video games are evil. Talk to some real people sometime, just bother someone on the street with a clipboard in hand and they'll probably be willing to answer one question without much fuss.

If video games existed around the 1930's, how powerful would the 3rd Reich of become? The Nazi's would train their evil powers on the PS2. They would slay all the children and recruit an army of German youths who also listen to Mayrilin Manson.

Now bear in mind there have been more Mortal Combat games made since the first, so it's not necesarily the 15 year old SNES one, but if it were that they played the more recent ones then they are most assuredly mentally... underpriveledged. If it is the case that they played the newer Mortal Combats and enjoyed them, even on a basic level, let alone enough to try and re-enact them and murder people then their sanity is woefully in question. Their poor taste in computer games is solely to blame in this circumstance, the recent ones are awful, Soul Calibre 1+2 now there's a pair of fighting games worth blaming bloody murder over. So if it is the new range of Mortal Combats they were playing then my final comment is that they could have at least blamed a good game.

eggdog14:
They're charged with "Child abuse resulting in death." Their max punishment is 42 years if tried as adults.

That's pretty solid.

Though I am a huge fan of vigilante justice, anyone have a crossbow?

Screw 42 years, these asshats need life without parole. They're obviously mentally incapable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy, and pose a threat to society.

Break:
but you come across as arrogant, which doesn't help your case. Try leaving some room for self-doubt, acknowledge the possibility that there is more than one way to understand a statement, and people might have less problems with what you say.
.

Of course I'm arrogant, aren't you every now and again?

WraithGadra:
Because New Media Are Evil, most people in charge of older media will try to push anything they can on it to make the first statement true. The alcohol aspect was underplayed because they want to avoid angering adults who choose to drink, but because only kids play video games, they are an acceptable target as far as most newsrooms are concerned.

Dang it, quit stealing my lines!!! >:(

But, in all seriousness, this just plain sucks. I mean, karate-chopping a 7-year-old girl. Real smart move there. I'm so sure the girl didn't give any indication, somewhere along the line, that she wasn't enjoying being beaten to death. :-(

This story is indeed tragic, but not because children were playing a video game. Never once does anyone ever hear from the "news" (see propaganda) about the parents who should be held responsible for these situations. They never talk about the parents who buy M rated video games for children who are under seventeen years of age, nor do they talk about the parents who leave alcohol in places that are easily accessible to underage individuals, and we also never hear that the parents were the ones who left their child alone while their other daughter and her boyfriend beat a little helpless girl causing horrific injuries and eventually her death . My question is "Where were the parents?" It seems like all of the big news organizations are afraid to say that the parents were negligent in the many instances like these that occur, and I'm getting sick of it. I'm even more sick of the news and parents blaming the content and its makers rather than than themselves, who make it accessible to children who are too young to play such things. Would they give their children porn? Would they give them R-rated movies, or adult books and magazines? Then why on earth would they give them M rated video games? Never do we see statistics about how many people actually play games and never act out violently, only the ones that say video games are destroying society. I would say that the ratio of non-violent gamers to truly violent gamers is probably strikingly in favor of the non-violent gamers. Probably in the cases of millions to a relatively small few. I find my self a fairly conservative Christian individual, but I also play games and believe that they have their appropriate place among every other form of media as a way to communicate and express ourselves so long as they are accessible to the appropriate audiences. What we are seeing is utter lunacy being presented as legitimate news. I think that gamers need to band together and start writing news organizations demanding that they give appropriate and truly unbiased statistics and information, especially when we see stories like this. We should stand up as intelligent and thought provoking individuals against the system that is doing more wrong than right. This little girl who died deserves justice, and the individuals responsible should take the full blame. A sixteen year old girl and a seventeen year old boy beat this little girl to death, not Johnny Cage and his shadow kick.

TheNecroswanson:

Geoffrey42:
Why would you say you were a golden elephant? .

Because I am.

I already told you! You can't be! Golden elephants can't interface with the internets... Your subconscious is screaming that you wish you were a gold elephant, though. Absolutely screaming. I can hear it. It sings to me in forgotten tongues. But only I can hear them... which is probably why you didn't realize what it was you were really saying.

TheNecroswanson:

Break:
but you come across as arrogant, which doesn't help your case. Try leaving some room for self-doubt, acknowledge the possibility that there is more than one way to understand a statement, and people might have less problems with what you say.
.

Of course I'm arrogant, aren't you every now and again?

No! I'm not arrogant! I'm too perfect! Only stupid people are arrogant!

Anyway, arrogance in itself isn't the problem. It's simply that people are more receptive to people who keep their arrogance in check. You're not going to be very persuasive if you offend everyone around you. Which, I think, is the point Geoffrey is making. When you seemed to decide that the problem could only be in his own miscommunication, rather than a misinterpretation on your part, you didn't exactly help your own argument.

SilentHunter7:
Screw 42 years, these asshats need life without parole. They're obviously mentally incapable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy, and pose a threat to society.

I like how you seem to be saying, by implication, that this was due to a game after all. Even after the majority of people on this site would think that games or other violent media has little to no impact on whether or not people will break the law, you still state your opinion. Bravo.

Geoffrey42:

I already told you! You can't be! Golden elephants can't interface with the internets... Your subconscious is screaming that you wish you were a gold elephant, though. Absolutely screaming. I can hear it. It sings to me in forgotten tongues. But only I can hear them... which is probably why you didn't realize what it was you were really saying.

Now you're just being an ass who won't shut up. I apologized to you (though not formerly) now would you kindly drop it.)
And Break, if I offend everyone around it's because they are too sensitive. (as harsh as that may be, an opinion shouldn't offend people if they wish to express their own aswell.) People take offense to simply other people living. It happens, it's called intolerance. Welcome to the real world.

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