T-Shirt Turtle: Completely cancelling a game many fans are probably anticipating is rude and basically amounts to raising a giant middle finger at all gamers, good or bad.
A fan is nothing more than a customer likely to return if a new product arises. If he no longer sees value in exchanging his efforts to make a product, that's not rude. The man doesn't owe you anything you haven't bought and paid for.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
Steven Bogos: "im being attacked CONSTANTLY. and i can't fight back? ever? yeah that seems fair."
Maybe if he wasn't such a cunt he wouldn't have to fight back.
Honestly, the way he acts, he's surprised that he gets shit? He gives people no reason to believe he's not a giant prick.
So... because he's honest, open, and speaks his mind that makes him a giant prick? See, this is why we can't have a more transparent game industry that is direct and honest with us, the consumers, because the consumers just rip the heads off of any developer that dares to say anything other than PR-Friendly drivel and is expected to take all the abuse we load on them without even so much as a peep, otherwise they are a "giant prick" or "such a cunt".
I'm going to miss Phil, he may not have made a game I actually WANTED to play, but he was EXACTLY the kind of developer this industry needs to instill a positive change in this festering stagnation. One that was not afraid to actually be a NORMAL PERSON instead of some nebulous, unseen developer who only shows his face to say something factual about whatever they're working on, hype it up a little, then disappear back to the office. However, I guess the industry is just not ready to accept that people with a bit of fame and credibility are actually people too who have differing opinions, emotions, and lives outside of their career. This moment right here has just made the game industry's developers retreat just a little farther into their offices, since it seems all they think we expect, nay, DEMAND of them is to keep their mouths shut unless they give us more information on their games and at all other times just work on games.
T-Shirt Turtle: Completely cancelling a game many fans are probably anticipating is rude and basically amounts to raising a giant middle finger at all gamers, good or bad.
A fan is nothing more than a customer likely to return if a new product arises. If he no longer sees value in exchanging his efforts to make a product, that's not rude. The man doesn't owe you anything you haven't bought and paid for.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
No, what's rude is all the gamers and reviewers alike that decide that their entitled to be the know-all, end-all decision on the video games that the developers make. That this entitlement spews over into "boorish fuck" speak against the developers.
I applaud a person not putting up with bullshit anymore. I applaud them saying "no" to the entitlement generation. And, I applaud him for calling out those self-centered, opinionated pricks at GT.com for what they are: know-nothing judgmental voices.
Some may see it as "bad business", but really that needs to be the furthest thing to consider at all. How about some basic fucking humanity towards a talented individual? No wonder he went off the deep end. Sheesh!
Well, so long Phil. Thanks for FEZ (which really was a great game, by the way). I wish you all the best in your future endeavors, whatever they may be. Although, to be honest, no matter which artistic industry you go into, you're going to encounter people like Marcus Beer. You're going to cop criticism. The Games Industry can be abusive, but so can any industry.
T-Shirt Turtle: Completely cancelling a game many fans are probably anticipating is rude and basically amounts to raising a giant middle finger at all gamers, good or bad.
A fan is nothing more than a customer likely to return if a new product arises. If he no longer sees value in exchanging his efforts to make a product, that's not rude. The man doesn't owe you anything you haven't bought and paid for.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
Maybe it was just the straw that broke the camel's back? Seems like he's got some pretty pent up anger.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
No, what's rude is all the gamers and reviewers alike that decide that their entitled to be the know-all, end-all decision on the video games that the developers make. That this entitlement spews over into "boorish fuck" speak against the developers.
I applaud a person not putting up with bullshit anymore. I applaud them saying "no" to the entitlement generation. And, I applaud him for calling out those self-centered, opinionated pricks at GT.com for what they are: know-nothing judgmental voices.
Some may see it as "bad business", but really that needs to be the furthest thing to consider at all. How about some basic fucking humanity towards a talented individual? No wonder he went off the deep end. Sheesh!
As much as I hate to say it, no-one's going to see this is as 'saying 'no' to the entitlement generation, they're going to see it as "fuck you then, I'm taking my cool toys home with me". As I've stated elsewhere, this is pretty much a spat between two arseholes, with the only difference that one is actually producing something relevant to the industry (Oh fine, I'll say it's Phil so you don't take that the wrong way), and unfortunately people are going to see this as Fish 'ruining' the sequel by throwing a tantrum, rather than the reviewer for initiating it. Note that I'm stating what OTHER people will think; whether or not I agree with his 'Show it to the man' attitude is really irrelevant.
People have already stated not only that he should get off Twitter if he can't handle the abuse, but also that he's perfectly capable of dishing out his own shit on other people without much reason, regardless of his inability to take it, which is really fucking stupid when you're in the gaming world's public eye. This is not what I think, he literally has a REPUTATION for being an jerk and acting surprised when the favor is returned, or responding to shit with his own crap.
And he didn't call anyone out, he just called them NAMES, told them to kill themselves using a crappy Futurama reference, said 'we're not going anywhere'... and then ragequited anyhow. THIS is how you call someone out:
"The thing with us "tosspots" "hipsters" is that we're not beholden to media leeches like you, and you're right. we're VERY successful. And we're not going anywhere. Get used to it because you will be reporting on my success stories for a long while more."
There you go Philly. A snarky comeback where you applaud yourself, scoff at him for being a decrepit old media parasite and basically do take the high-ground whilst still denigrating him to nothing more than someone who will be heralding your achievements.
That is how someone would react if they weren't hipster tosspot douchebags. It's best if you keep to making games and not engaging in empty exchanges of excessive insults.
I'll be the first to agree that this could very well have been the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he has every right to stop development for Fez 2 if he damn well wants to, and finally that this reviewer was being nothing more than an aggressive tosspot... But noone else will. There're just going to see it as Fish saying "Because some stupid fucking retards, you know, the ones that populate EVERY community, especially this one, said some nasty words that I didn't like, you're not getting the highly anticipated sequel to my game, because I can't stay off Twitter or learn to ignore people who say stupid crap about me." Considering that the internet is literally currently ringing with the phrase "And nothing of value was lost", as much as I despise it, I seriously doubt that I'm wrong about this.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
If it were simply that reason alone, then it would certainly be a little silly. But, then, this is also a relatively common thing with Fish. Couple that with the brutal grind and stress inherent with game development and I can see someone walking away. Hell - people leave the game industry all the time because of the grind alone.
To put it another way, when your professional life consists of a job that often calls for 80+ hour weeks for months on end and then dealing with trolls all day, what psychosis would be necessary to stick around? That the man doesn't handle conflict well certainly does not help.
To be fair, the arseholes from Invisible Walls went something like this:
"You are successfull indie designers. Hurrah, you fucking hipsters!" "If the press comes to you [...] be fucking grateful. Me I think you are a pair of tosspots!" "Fish is a fucking arsehole ..."
The fuck on the right seems like he thinks that as a member of the press he is privileged to blowjobs from developers. Kinda like the yellow press attitude in Britain.
T-Shirt Turtle: Completely cancelling a game many fans are probably anticipating is rude and basically amounts to raising a giant middle finger at all gamers, good or bad.
A fan is nothing more than a customer likely to return if a new product arises. If he no longer sees value in exchanging his efforts to make a product, that's not rude. The man doesn't owe you anything you haven't bought and paid for.
Rude or not, there's no denying that dropping development for an eagerly anticipated sequel simply because you had a shit-slinging match with someone is pretty fucking stupid.
It'd be nice if it weren't one sided though. A game made because the developer wanted to make it as opposed a game an audience wanted but the developer lost the passion and drive to make it.
If you're just making a game for the paycheck then making a game is like any other job but if you're making a game because you enjoy making it and that enjoyment is no longer there, why continue?
Steven Bogos: "im being attacked CONSTANTLY. and i can't fight back? ever? yeah that seems fair."
Maybe if he wasn't such a cunt he wouldn't have to fight back.
Honestly, the way he acts, he's surprised that he gets shit? He gives people no reason to believe he's not a giant prick.
So... because he's honest, open, and speaks his mind that makes him a giant prick? See, this is why we can't have a more transparent game industry that is direct and honest with us, the consumers, because the consumers just rip the heads off of any developer that dares to say anything other than PR-Friendly drivel and is expected to take all the abuse we load on them without even so much as a peep, otherwise they are a "giant prick" or "such a cunt".
I'm going to miss Phil, he may not have made a game I actually WANTED to play, but he was EXACTLY the kind of developer this industry needs to instill a positive change in this festering stagnation. One that was not afraid to actually be a NORMAL PERSON instead of some nebulous, unseen developer who only shows his face to say something factual about whatever they're working on, hype it up a little, then disappear back to the office. However, I guess the industry is just not ready to accept that people with a bit of fame and credibility are actually people too who have differing opinions, emotions, and lives outside of their career. This moment right here has just made the game industry's developers retreat just a little farther into their offices, since it seems all they think we expect, nay, DEMAND of them is to keep their mouths shut unless they give us more information on their games and at all other times just work on games.
Phil has said that the Japanese make bad games, and that he is the second coming of christ to console gamers. He thinks he is the voice of a generation.
He hates PC, then crawls back saying shit's so expensive and says he should have went on PC after insulting them.
Korolev: Well, so long Phil. Thanks for FEZ (which really was a great game, by the way). I wish you all the best in your future endeavors, whatever they may be. Although, to be honest, no matter which artistic industry you go into, you're going to encounter people like Marcus Beer. You're going to cop criticism. The Games Industry can be abusive, but so can any industry.
Agreed. So long Phil, and thanks for all the Fish.
As crazy as Phil is, he is at least entertaining... In an industry filled with PR-trained-guys, who cant say shit unless a marketing team has evaluated it, Fish was smething new...and lets face it, to do something like Fez you gotta be a little crazy. Lets be honest guys, a lot of you will miss him, just for the entertainement factor! Also, I kinda feel like many complainers are just mad about the Japan-comment and actually express themself the same way on twitter/facebook... Also that gametrailers show was kinda offensive. I guess game developers are suppposed to just lay down and take hits from the critics.
I just don't understand what was so great about Fez, and therefore I struggle to work out what is the value of Fish beyond the "but he's a human being!" excuse.
What have you produced? If you say that someone being a conscious human being is just an 'excuse' and their life means nothing, what would be lost if you died? People are worth more than just what they produce.
Let's be realistic: Why would you care if I got hit by a car tomorrow? Sure you may have a brief moment of "oh, it's sad he got hit by a car", but because I haven't had any significance to your life in any way you probably wouldn't care beyond five minutes. I haven't produced anything note-worthy, not in terms of physical content, social content or something mentally stimulating. Phil Fish, to me, hasn't provided me anything that has been note-worthy to me personally in any way. Therefore, if he offed himself in the near future nothing of value would be lost to me.
Although if you can name someone who has been worth a lot despite not making anything of worth in terms of physical, social or mental content, I'll admit fault.
Your parents? Your family? Anyone who you love? They should be worth a lot to most people, barring unfortunate circumstances, despite not being important to most people but you. I can understand where you're coming from- heck, I feel the same way about people at school- but there is a difference between being unable to care about someone because you don't know them at all, and saying that them dying is a neutral event. I don't have to weep for someone's death to understand that it is a sad thing that they died. But I suppose that's almost what you're saying.
Maybe if he wasn't such a cunt he wouldn't have to fight back.
Honestly, the way he acts, he's surprised that he gets shit? He gives people no reason to believe he's not a giant prick.
So... because he's honest, open, and speaks his mind that makes him a giant prick? See, this is why we can't have a more transparent game industry that is direct and honest with us, the consumers, because the consumers just rip the heads off of any developer that dares to say anything other than PR-Friendly drivel and is expected to take all the abuse we load on them without even so much as a peep, otherwise they are a "giant prick" or "such a cunt".
I'm going to miss Phil, he may not have made a game I actually WANTED to play, but he was EXACTLY the kind of developer this industry needs to instill a positive change in this festering stagnation. One that was not afraid to actually be a NORMAL PERSON instead of some nebulous, unseen developer who only shows his face to say something factual about whatever they're working on, hype it up a little, then disappear back to the office. However, I guess the industry is just not ready to accept that people with a bit of fame and credibility are actually people too who have differing opinions, emotions, and lives outside of their career. This moment right here has just made the game industry's developers retreat just a little farther into their offices, since it seems all they think we expect, nay, DEMAND of them is to keep their mouths shut unless they give us more information on their games and at all other times just work on games.
Phil has said that the Japanese make bad games, and that he is the second coming of christ to console gamers. He thinks he is the voice of a generation.
He hates PC, then crawls back saying shit's so expensive and says he should have went on PC after insulting them.
There is a fine line, and fish crosses it.
You forgot when he bashed the 3DS for having 3D. A gimmick his game is inspired by.
I'm getting sick that this industry constantly tries to get taken seriously as an art form and not "just a business", but when we get people that are traditional "artists", e.g. moody, depressed or just plain weird, we do our best to push them away and accuse them of being unprofessional. Take a look at any other medium and look among the most critically acclaimed creators. It's smack full of loonies, weirdos and pricks. Why do we expect this industry's artists to hold up to some sort of gold standard in sanity and professionalism? Look, I'm not saying you can't be a good artist and a professional, just look at Miracle of Sound, that guy keeps producing quality shit on a schedule, and I'm not even saying Phil Fish is any good, I haven't played Fez. But I do think it was a good sign for the industry that eccentric people like him and Blow were getting a voice in the industry. I don't think the game industry needs a "Citizen Kane", but maybe we do need an Orson Wells, an Alan Moore and a Salvador Dali.
i couldn't care less. i don't care about fez the whole indie gaming scene passed me by for a couple of years because i just don't like platformers and apparently the solution when you don't want to work in the AAA industry because you don't want to make just another shooter is to make another platformer with a gimmick. oh and you probably should stay off twitter if you can't deal with criticism.
Steven Bogos: "im being attacked CONSTANTLY. and i can't fight back? ever? yeah that seems fair."
Maybe if he wasn't such a cunt he wouldn't have to fight back.
Honestly, the way he acts, he's surprised that he gets shit? He gives people no reason to believe he's not a giant prick.
So... because he's honest, open, and speaks his mind that makes him a giant prick? See, this is why we can't have a more transparent game industry that is direct and honest with us, the consumers, because the consumers just rip the heads off of any developer that dares to say anything other than PR-Friendly drivel and is expected to take all the abuse we load on them without even so much as a peep, otherwise they are a "giant prick" or "such a cunt".
I'm going to miss Phil, he may not have made a game I actually WANTED to play, but he was EXACTLY the kind of developer this industry needs to instill a positive change in this festering stagnation. One that was not afraid to actually be a NORMAL PERSON instead of some nebulous, unseen developer who only shows his face to say something factual about whatever they're working on, hype it up a little, then disappear back to the office. However, I guess the industry is just not ready to accept that people with a bit of fame and credibility are actually people too who have differing opinions, emotions, and lives outside of their career. This moment right here has just made the game industry's developers retreat just a little farther into their offices, since it seems all they think we expect, nay, DEMAND of them is to keep their mouths shut unless they give us more information on their games and at all other times just work on games.
No, doing shit like this and this and this is what makes him a cunt.
He's a public figure who goes around insulting and berating people yet is surprised and has a hissy fit whenever people insult him back. Considering how much he talks about how everyone else's game is shit and his is so good I get the impression that he's a bit of a narcissist, but again, one who just can't take it that maybe someone won't like him or his game.
I get that he has a lot of people insulting him on a daily basis. I get that twitter "can bring so much ugliness into (his) life" (although that's fucking stupid because why not just leave or hire someone to block people for you earlier i'unno, but there's a lot of indie devs on twitter who would easily be receiving similar hatred but because they don't say whatever shit spews out of their anuses and if they do they don't say it in such a way to draw inflammatory attention to themselves, they don't get as hated as Blowfish. Imagine that!
I like how the original post fails to quote anything said by Mr beer, and laughably describes what he says as "Criticism"
"Have you seen these wankers bitch and moan-Phil Fish in particular," Beer said. When a panelist offered that Fish seemed "whiny," Beer interrupted, "Whiny? He's a fucking asshole most of the time."
A tiny exerpt of a 3 minute rant in which there is basically only insults thrown.
And i'd just like to remind everyone that, had this happened on this site, Fish would have never got a chance to tell Beer to kill himself; Because Beer would have been banned by a Mod for insulting other members.
Oh but no, Escapist, keep representing Beer as some innocent "Member of the media" who was only "Criticising".
hazabaza1: ...but there's a lot of indie devs on twitter who would easily be receiving similar hatred but because they don't say whatever shit spews out of their anuses...
But that still doesnt make it any better....yeah, if you hit enough targets, one of them will eventually be hitting back, cause he will take it seriously and than every gamer is crying how unfair and unprofessional that is. I bet that even before his famous Japan-comment (which inspired so much happy weeaboo-hate) he had to take dozens of far worse comments. Also, that invisible walls show was extremely arrogant and stupid. Im not saying that Fish is a socially healthy guy (probably isnt), but all the hate, all the abuse and all the swearing against him is kinda missing the point. Also, working over 6 years on a project would probably cause most people to snap. I guess haters can now congratulate themself for sucessfully making sure all Fez-fans will never see part 2.
The entire conversation around the internet that I've seen so far, and the way it's been going, makes me not want to be a game developer and make games for people. I just don't think I could expose myself to the torrents of abuse; being in the public eye.
Typecast: The entire conversation around the internet that I've seen so far, and the way it's been going, makes me not want to be a game developer and make games for people. I just don't think I could expose myself to the torrents of abuse; being in the public eye.
It's anywhere you are a major public figure. But yes, it seems people who play games have no problem going straight to making it a personal affair and just really wringing out as much passive aggression they can, if not outright vitriol.
I've always said, if I were in a similar position, I would do what's necessary to keep my consumers informed about the important things, but other than that I would not touch any social media.
I think it's becoming clear that more than half of all of you in this thread will walk to Phil Fish's funeral and laugh at him to the top of your lungs. It'd pointless for me to ask that question, "whatever happened to never speaking ill of the dead?", because I know you lot cannot live without some of that schadenfreude. I, on the other hand, will be the only one gently putting down a single Cyclamen by his bosom, maybe punch his lifeless husk of a face all but once, and walk away without a word.
He and I share a lot of things in common, doubly so in terms of mental instability. The only thing that separates us would be that I have achieved nothing, am nobody, never believed that I can make anything good, am always haunted by regret, and have a crippling fear of death.
"Go and kill yourself." is the epitome of insults now? I've heard worse things irl and didn't hear any backlash, but on twitter that's not allowed? Because twitter is such a high-brow forum for discussion?
Phil Fish: "To be clear, I'm not canceling Fez II because some boorish fuck said something stupid, I'm doing it to get out of games. And I'm getting out of games because I choose not to put up with this abuse anymore."
Well good luck to you, I hope it works out. Though I feel you could have just turned off your social media accounts if you wanted the abuse to end. It seems a lot easier, and you could still make games if you liked. Either way you made Fez and, while I've never played it, a lot of people like it.
"To be clear, I'm not cancelling Fez II because some boorish fuck said something stupid, I'm doing it to get out of games. And I'm getting out of games because I choose not to put up with this abuse anymore."
clearly someone hasn't worked in a call center, or customer service, i sort of laugh in the face of what you consider abuse.
I wonder how much money he just through down the drain cancelling this one.
Nobody ever criticized you on the quality of your games, Fish, they criticized you because you come across as a genuinely shitty person.
Maybe if you spent less time fucking around on twitter and focused more on your games, you would receive less flak. Maybe if you didn't go around "trolling" for attention, people wouldn't give you shit. You are extremely talented, but you don't have you head screwed on at all.
"To be clear, I'm not cancelling Fez II because some boorish fuck said something stupid, I'm doing it to get out of games. And I'm getting out of games because I choose not to put up with this abuse anymore."
So I'm not doing it because someone said something mean but it was because someone said something mean. Thats all I read out of that
Why can everyone else deal with it and he can't? Why doesn't he keep the Twitter feed but get a PR person to keep it updated, like so many other devs do. If he really liked the other aspects of developing games I think he would have ignored this stuff or sequestered himself from social networking services. I wonder if Fez II hit some developmental hurdles.
Can anyone point out any other developer who quit for this reason?
"Go and kill yourself." is the epitome of insults now? I've heard worse things irl and didn't hear any backlash, but on twitter that's not allowed? Because twitter is such a high-brow forum for discussion?
Also:
"I've heard worse in real life" isn't really a proper excuse. So long as I live and breath, I will never let "go kill yourself" become an acceptable form of insult in any conversation, twitter or not.
More on-topic: I would would say Fish is the greater of the two evils in this little debacle, his personality-type is just not suitable for extended contact with human beings, let alone internet-fame.
People really ought to know by now to keep their childish outbursts off social media. I don't think ill lose much sleep over this new development and not only because he is so obviously a prick without the social graces to know when to keep his mouth shut.
I wonder if he will struggle with his future career with such an inflated sense of self importance and volatile reactions to some fairly mild criticism. Id like him to be forced to change his ways and becomes a better person through extended financial trouble but that would be too much to hope for.
