GTA V $ 2,147,483,647 Glitch Could Wipe Your Cash Away

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GTA ate my guns, which bugs me more.

thiosk:
I keep telling people that cookie clikcer is better.

Now you'll believe me.

It can handle trillions.

Millions of trillions.

But can it handle billions of quadrillions? THAT'S the real question, you see.

Anyway, what do you do when you have -2 billion? Kinda seems like it's just time to hang it up at that point. You know? That's pretty much it. Game over, man. Game over.

Captcha: I love deadliness... huh.

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

I'm no expert in binary department...but why will computer clocks and systems have major problems o.O it's just a number, 19/01/2038...

Brain. Hurts.

BarbaricGoose:

thiosk:
I keep telling people that cookie clikcer is better.

Now you'll believe me.

It can handle trillions.

Millions of trillions.

But can it handle billions of quadrillions? THAT'S the real question, you see.

Anyway, what do you do when you have -2 billion? Kinda seems like it's just time to hang it up at that point. You know? That's pretty much it. Game over, man. Game over.

Captcha: I love deadliness... huh.

Yes.

Theres even... quintillions.
And more.

captcha: until next time

It would a shame if one of your real life problems is paying off your enormous student loan debt (like me).
You slot in GTAV with the hopes of feeling for a moment what it is like to be the richest human being... Only to find you are massively in debt in GTA,
too.
Major bummer.

arc1991:

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

I'm no expert in binary department...but why will computer clocks and systems have major problems o.O it's just a number, 19/01/2038...

Brain. Hurts.

Long story short: "Modern" computer systems have time defined as x numbers passed since january 1st 1970 (ever seen that date appear by some error? yup that's why).
Many years later, and those number of seconds have turned into an impressive number, just like the number of dollars in GTA. Someone has done the maths, and the day we'll have our own "GTA" glitch is in 2038. Simply put, the amount of seconds passed since 1970 will be greater than a number that can be stored(with 32bit), and it will reset.

Hopefully by then, most systems will have moved onto using 64bit integers. Don't worry your head with this though, since we're 25 years away from it anyways. If you want more brain-hurt read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

For added realism, exciting "Bailout Pack" DLC coming soon!

And my insane theory that 3rd party developers hardly ever QA their **** anymore just looks more like a fact these days.

My next question, why the heck are they even highly respected these days?

Floppertje:
you'd almost think it's some kind of social commentary about not doing weird stuff with the stock market.

That would be an elegant way to get out of this mess "well, ladies and gents, this is not a bug, this was done on purpose, it's a social reflex on the impact of capitalism in our lives..." lol

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

Hah, I've been telling people to fear Y2k38 since Y2k and only got strange looks... Lazy programmers/hardware makers.

Highest I have now is 200 million on Franklin (thank you assassination missions) and am going around buying places because why not.

I don't think I will get 2 billion anytime soon (unless I am just too awesome online)

Just did another assassination mission and got a lot more money, but far from a billion yet, saving up for the movie theaters and the golf course, as well as the expensive planes and boats (those don't disappear right?)

I have a question, if I buy a plane and destroy it, will it be in my hangar again or is it gone for good?

Twenty Ninjas:
Hahahaha someone used long int for the variable that represents money.

Newbie developer mistake, Rockstar.

I'm not sure. If its possible to go into debt in the game (I haven't played it) then using a signed int seems like a reasonable choice. Of course, its a good idea to catch overflow problems before they happen, but its a commmon enough mistake, even at well established studios like Blizzard.

Floppertje:
you'd almost think it's some kind of social commentary about not doing weird stuff with the stock market.

Milanezi:

That would be an elegant way to get out of this mess "well, ladies and gents, this is not a bug, this was done on purpose, it's a social reflex on the impact of capitalism in our lives..." lol

Wait, doesn't this also mean if you somehow go over 2.2 billion dollars into debt, then it will roll over and you'll become a multi-billionaire?
I wonder what that says about society.

DataSnake:
And they didn't use use an unsigned value for money because...?

I haven't played it yet, but is there the possibility that you can legitimately get into debt in the game? If so, that's why it's signed.

amaranth_dru:

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

Hah, I've been telling people to fear Y2k38 since Y2k and only got strange looks... Lazy programmers/hardware makers.

It definitely isn't anything to do with being lazy in this instance. Remember, this is an evolution of an engine which, evidently, has always had a signed int to store the money, but previous games didn't provide the capability to earn crazy amounts of cash. I imagine that it simply didn't occur to anybody that this was possible, or to check what variable type the money was stored in.

A simple oversight that can have massive consequences - everybody (including you) has done this, because we're human.

Negatempest:
And my insane theory that 3rd party developers hardly ever QA their **** anymore just looks more like a fact these days.

My next question, why the heck are they even highly respected these days?

Variations of this bug have existed for decades (Nethack's score has the same problem).

This isn't about lazy developers not bothering to QA their data, it's about them not accounting for deranged levels of overplay. Does the average person get anywhere near that figure? Of course not. If it was set at a 16-bit integer (cap of 32767), that might be a bit dumb because presumably people are going to hit that. There's only so many corner cases you can account for.

They couldn't have used 64 bit integers to avoid this? I mean come on it's 2013, not 1999.

Kinitawowi:

Negatempest:
And my insane theory that 3rd party developers hardly ever QA their **** anymore just looks more like a fact these days.

My next question, why the heck are they even highly respected these days?

Variations of this bug have existed for decades (Nethack's score has the same problem).

This isn't about lazy developers not bothering to QA their data, it's about them not accounting for deranged levels of overplay. Does the average person get anywhere near that figure? Of course not. If it was set at a 16-bit integer (cap of 32767), that might be a bit dumb because presumably people are going to hit that. There's only so many corner cases you can account for.

Variations have existed for this bug have existed, mostly in PC. Understandable considering PCs have a variety of builds and you cant get them all. This was very much a game specific bug. And I add this bug with the garage bug, which should of also been caught with goid QA. Let us not forget that players will always get a stupid high cash amount. It is the reason there are hard caps in money, even MMOs have hard caps.

DiamanteGeeza:

amaranth_dru:

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

Hah, I've been telling people to fear Y2k38 since Y2k and only got strange looks... Lazy programmers/hardware makers.

It definitely isn't anything to do with being lazy in this instance. Remember, this is an evolution of an engine which, evidently, has always had a signed int to store the money, but previous games didn't provide the capability to earn crazy amounts of cash. I imagine that it simply didn't occur to anybody that this was possible, or to check what variable type the money was stored in.

A simple oversight that can have massive consequences - everybody (including you) has done this, because we're human.

Oh, no. This was neglegence for sure. The facts are that this money glitch, the garage glitch and now im hearing game save corruptions from the online game. This is all pointing to 3rd party giving a rats bottom to QA anything as often as they did in the past. And for some reason custumers are letting this slide. 3rd party no longer deserve that kind of respect.

shameduser:
I was thinking about how you would get around this and maybe have a second variable that holds all money over the limit but then displaying the amount wouldn't be easy sense you can't just add the two together and display that. I'm not super familiar with programing so it could be really easy.

Depends on what language you're programming in, but most will have some sort of library for "BigInt" numbers, i.e. integers using more bits than the 'standard' 32 or 64. Very likely including support for arbitrarily large ints, which extend to as big a number as you need, but of course has to use more storage space to do it.

..This isn't a glitch in the traditional sense, this is programmer oversight. If they had done a simple if block to check to make say if your money is X and the limit is Y and if X+newly gained money > Y then subtrack enough money to equal Y (Or set X to equal Y which would have been a predefined variable for ease of change, but for this case I don't think will change). That why any newly gained money will always be over way and will set it to that limit

So does this mean if I go far enough into debt I can become rich?

Ha! 32bit int for currency!? Come on, they'd have to suspect people would go over that limit. The systems might not understand a 64bit int but there's got to be a way around that even if it means holding overflow in a new int variable.

Glaice:
They couldn't have used 64 bit integers to avoid this? I mean come on it's 2013, not 1999.

I don't think the consoles can understand 64bit ints.

NLS:

arc1991:

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

I'm no expert in binary department...but why will computer clocks and systems have major problems o.O it's just a number, 19/01/2038...

Brain. Hurts.

Long story short: "Modern" computer systems have time defined as x numbers passed since january 1st 1970 (ever seen that date appear by some error? yup that's why).
Many years later, and those number of seconds have turned into an impressive number, just like the number of dollars in GTA. Someone has done the maths, and the day we'll have our own "GTA" glitch is in 2038. Simply put, the amount of seconds passed since 1970 will be greater than a number that can be stored(with 32bit), and it will reset.

Hopefully by then, most systems will have moved onto using 64bit integers. Don't worry your head with this though, since we're 25 years away from it anyways. If you want more brain-hurt read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

Never really understood why system time was represented as a signed int. Is there ever a time where a system counting the passing of seconds needs to account for negative numbers?

EDIT:

Ah, stored time(in seconds?) before 1970 wouldn't work...

I am confused, at the end of the game I had $20 Million for each character.
The only way to make money is robbing things and cash from business.
By robbing people, shops and armoured cars I can make between $10 and $6000.
My businesses role in around $10,000 every in game week.
Minus $5,000 everytime I get killed after a rampage or accident.
I've never maid more than $500 off the stock market.

Can someone please explain how I can make enough money to break the game without cheating?

Lightknight:
Remember when we were kids and they'd just cap the maximum dollar amount somewhere? Those were good days.

yeah, i remember the 999.999 limits in games when game woudl stop accumulating above that. those were good days indeed.
also iremember when somoen moded a game to make people gain enormous amoutns of EXP in a MMO with no level cap. result was so much health increase from leveling up that health became negative. NEGATIVE HEALTH. didnt make you immortal though as once you got hit it rilled back over into very large amount. still that was fun experience.

thiosk:
I keep telling people that cookie clikcer is better.

Now you'll believe me.

It can handle trillions.

Millions of trillions.

Noooo! this is too addictive! posting links to cookie clicker shoudl be bannable offence. it ruins lives!
(i am of course joking).

EightGaugeHippo:

Can someone please explain how I can make enough money to break the game without cheating?

Insider trading on the stock market.

For example, in one of the random encounters where you help someone catch their flight, if you get them to the airport on time they'll give you a stock tip, which, if you invest all of your money on it will give you something like a 500% return.

Also Lester's assassination missions affect the stock market by lowering the prices of your target's company and raising the value of it's competitor, so if you invest your money wisely before those missions, you can make an absolute killing by selling the competitor's shares when they've gone up after the mission, then buying up all of the shares of the company who's CEO you've just killed at a vastly reduced price, then selling those again when the prices return to normal.

Then there's the BAWSAQ market which is influenced by the community (on both the 360 and PS3), who in the past week or so, have all made a concentrated effort to only buy Hawk and Liddle and Pißwasser stocks, which has driven their prices up by an insane amount (e.g. H&L was $0.74 a share when GTA V launched, it's now over $15.00 a share).
With this community driven scheme, as well as everyone agreeing to put their money into specific companies in order to drive up their prices, they've also all agreed to sell their stocks at the same time, which will ensure everyone gets the maximum return but also crash market and make the prices plummet.

The key to making billions is to save all the money you make from heists and only invest it shares in companies which are scripted to increase through certain missions or activities.

The people who made so much money that they broke their game probably didn't do any of Lester's assassination missions or any of the stock market related random encounters until they'd beaten the game and had the maximum amount of capital to play the markets with, which can easily be multiplied by many hundreds with savvy stock trading and insider knowledge.

shameduser:

Well, I'd assume someone who works in QA would be familiar with similar bugs in other games and it's not unreasonable to assume that players could accumulate that much money. Maybe it was found late in development and a work around wasn't feasible so close to launch.

I was thinking about how you would get around this and maybe have a second variable that holds all money over the limit but then displaying the amount wouldn't be easy sense you can't just add the two together and display that. I'm not super familiar with programing so it could be really easy.

This is a very real possibility, yeah. I'd personally just put a limit to the amount of cash people can have in the game, since there is nothing you could spend this amount of cash on anyway.

This is final proof as to how much care and attention they are putting into game making these days. I haven't seen this sort of math bug since 1982 with MajorBBS' Galactic Empire. It is one of the oldest bugs on the block. And how did they miss it? They didn't even bother testing it. Or atleast whoever they had do the testing sure as hell wasn't a professional.

Banks should do this in the real world...

and here's me wondering how I'd make $150 mil to buy the country club...

So Rockstar spent a ton of cash on making this game but didn't have a developer that knows what the limit to a 32-bit signed integer is?

It's a programming basic. All they needed to do was put a check in when increasing cash that will prevent it going over this limit.

The worst thing any programmer can do is say 'nah, the user won't do that, so no need to put a check on it or anything', because the user will invariably do that.

And just a couple days ago I was reading about the year 2038 problem and the thought of this bug popping up in GTA hit me. Ridiculous.

NLS:
Why are people surprised? 2,147,483,647 is the highest you can go with a signed integer.
Hell they could almost try to make that a selling point for the next-gen version of GTAV "Now with support for a maximum amount of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 $" since that's how high you can go with 64bit.

People will always say "oh why didn't they think of that", but did you know that a lot of computer clocks and systems will have major problems when time hits 19 January 2038 because of the exact same problem?

Yeah, but as soon as it tips over to -$9,223,372,036,854,775,808 somebody will hit that and start bitching "But why didn't you go 128-bit?! These programmers are cretins!"

They have to draw a line somewhere.

TizzytheTormentor:
Highest I have now is 200 million on Franklin (thank you assassination missions) and am going around buying places because why not.

I don't think I will get 2 billion anytime soon (unless I am just too awesome online)

Just did another assassination mission and got a lot more money, but far from a billion yet, saving up for the movie theaters and the golf course, as well as the expensive planes and boats (those don't disappear right?)

I have a question, if I buy a plane and destroy it, will it be in my hangar again or is it gone for good?

Crashed mine found it in hanger after saving game.

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