'Massive' U.K. Study Finds No Link Between Gaming and Behavior

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Therumancer:

That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is situations where a game goes around preaching alternative morality and using that as the basis for it's story. A few examples of this would be "Gang" games like some of the Grand Theft Auto games and say Saint's Row earlier on. Nobody is likely to start going on criminal rampages IRL or anything like that because of those games, but the problems are a bit more subtle when you see the discussions about right and wrong and how the "good" guys justify themselves within the storylines. This can be applied to a lot of different games, not just ones based around crime. In a case where your looking at a moral choice and are told "do the right thing, or not" isn't a problem, it's when you have an entire game that is based around justifying the wrong thing as the right thing.

See, when your dealing with people that are still developing it's better to instill the proper values, for the real world, before worrying about things like "alternative or contextual morality". This arguably being why many games are "M" rated more than the actual sexual and/or violent content.

As I said, I don't entirely agree with it, but that's the gist of a lot of the criticisms. A lot of gamers like to go off about how say playing Grand Theft Auto hasn't made them go running down the street shotgunning people, but really the critics are more concerned with less overt things, more like how a kid growing up with heroes like say CJ from San Andreas, or whatever else are more likely to be disrespectful to authority beyond typical youthful rebellion, lipping off to teachers, being increasingly resentful of orderly conduct, and similar things.

To put things into perspective, the guys doing your typical study on this kind of thing are not usually concerned about over the top incidents of violence, but rather trends. Understand that even before the more famous school shootings we saw the need for schools to have security guards and such put into place, and for generations that was never even an issue. There are cases that don't make national news of things like students threatening teachers over grades and the like with the justification that "well if this can affect my entire life, whether I earned the grades or not, I'm taking the person that makes that choice about me down if I'm going down". In many cases the students in cases that generallty get lumped into catagories like "threats against faculty" and are oftentimes handled still without involving the police (though police involvement is becoming mandatory), don't think they did anything morally wrong and were in many cases protecting themselves "against the system" or whatever. One has to ask how kids are being lead to think this kind of thing is okay, and really in a warped kind of way it's similar to some of the alternative morality espoused by anti-heroes in fiction, albeit applied to the real world, as opposed to in a fantastic context with over the top stakes.

I'm mostly just explaining it, more than trying to sell it. I have mixed opinions on the subject, tending to think that the problem with video game studies is that if your going to analyze such things it needs to cover a wider array of media. After all music, print, comics, television, movies, etc... all cover a lot of the same concepts nowadays, and indeed it's increasingly common for an IP to span all of those things. You can't isolate video games and blame them for a problem. I generally tend to think that there might be SOME validity to these overall claims, but if there is it comes down to needing to be more strict about enforcing ratings, and to put "alternative morality" into the same category as sex and violence for purposes of giving an "R" or "M" rating... IF it could ever be proved, which I'm not sure of because honestly nobody has ever properly performed the studies... which would honestly be something that would have to span a decade or more before any conclusion could be drawn, as opposed to something that could be churned out by the usual research groups who want to get a paper or article out there for some press. Such a project would also probably require special dispensation to conduct surveillance since when your trying to find out the truth of what people do, think, and say, it's not going to be about what THEY tell you especially when they know it's a study, for the most part it comes down to what happens when they think nobody else is around.... privacy is a touchy subject when it comes down to needing to determine the truth where people are involved.... but at any rate I'm rambling. The point is that the kind of evidence that would be needed to convince to take an absolutist position on this subject in either direction simply does not exist... and I pretty much disregard what either side says when their study involves 5 year olds. For the most part I'm an adult, as long as people leave my games alone, and I have no problem finding adult content in those games when appropriate, I don't care. Youth culture is something that the current generation of adults is never going to sort out for long, and scapegoats will always be dragged out to blame.

strange day today, i got quoted 4 times with VERY long posts. Ok, lets see.
I understand what you mean but i may simply be unable to express my thoughts clearly enough to show that.
I always found GTA games to he good example of how bad gang culture is and how it is never beneficial to be in one. So if it did any effect on me is that it made me think of how bad being in a gang would be.
ALternative morality is not a bad thing People should be exposed to alternative morality, the more the better. That is the only way to truly decide on your own morality and not just do what everyone you see is doing. Conflict is good for personal decisions.

"Instil proper values" sounds like those lunatics that think their own morality is the only right one and everyone else must be forced to follow it because he said so. People create their own values, not blindly follow what they were brainwashed to do, so i totaly disagree on your second paragraph.

Security guards at schools is totaly alien concept to me. We never had any here save for the caretaker whos job was to make sure proper doors are locked and whatnot, he wanst a "guard" or itnerfered with children. I can only see this as necessary in schools that are so bad drug trafficing in them sounds like daily activity.
Yes, there are out of control people who hit teacher over a grade (and there are teachers who are as bad, it was commonplace not even long ago to hit children for speaking in class). Thing is - the issues they make are not becuase games isntilled bad ideals into them - its that they view life completely differently than we do. i wont go into discussion of "good or bad" things here unless you really want to go offtopic.

Putting alternative morality in categories where things are censored. Yeah, sorry, we dont want book burning here. We tried that, and we really dont want that anymore.

Realitycrash:
Why do you keep calling it "Massive study" instead of Study or Massive Study (it has 11.000 participants)?.

Why would it be "Massive Study". Study is a regular word.

Strazdas:

"Instil proper values" sounds like those lunatics that think their own morality is the only right one and everyone else must be forced to follow it because he said so. People create their own values, not blindly follow what they were brainwashed to do, so i totaly disagree on your second paragraph.

Security guards at schools is totaly alien concept to me. We never had any here save for the caretaker whos job was to make sure proper doors are locked and whatnot, he wanst a "guard" or itnerfered with children. I can only see this as necessary in schools that are so bad drug trafficing in them sounds like daily activity.
Yes, there are out of control people who hit teacher over a grade (and there are teachers who are as bad, it was commonplace not even long ago to hit children for speaking in class). Thing is - the issues they make are not becuase games isntilled bad ideals into them - its that they view life completely differently than we do. i wont go into discussion of "good or bad" things here unless you really want to go offtopic.
)?.

Well, they didn't have security guards when I went to regular schools either (as far as that went, I have a very unusual backround), neither did my parents, or my grandparents, however today it's extremely common. What's more many schools want to institute X-rays, metal detectors, and similar things at the entrances to schools, the "rash" of school shootings helped fuel the possibility of it happening on a large scale, but even before Columbine people wanted to do this due to the rising problems with the youth. To people who don't really "see" the problems it's hard to understand what people are so concerned about. As "funny" as it might sound, I once read an article comparing the "C" grade movie "Class of 1999" to the state of actual schools a few years ago. "Class of 1999" was a movie where the students are so out of control even with security similar to a courthouse (detectors, etc...) going in and out, that they reprogram these military androids to be teachers, since real teachers just can't deal with the school environment (... and understand IRL there are efforts by teachers nowadays to demand the right to be armed). In the movie the environment is so out of control that the androids revert to military programming and start trying to wipe out the students as an enemy force, of course the students themselves are pretty heavily armed when you get down to it and hilarity ensues. Barring the campy science fiction elements... the point is that what at one time seemed crazily far fetched is shockingly close to the truth.

At any rate, we've pretty much said everything that is going be said on this subject. I'm largely explaining things as opposed to trying to actually defend the other side.

When it comes to "instilling proper morality" though, I have to strongly disagree with you. Kids need to be taught how to get along within society. I am not talking about conditioning kids to a specific religion or anything, but respect for authority (although not totally unquestioning obiedience), respect for property, respect for others, and similar things are all necessary. After all the idea is for them to live, work, and survive alongside others here. Understanding alternative morality is a good thing, but I believe it's something that should be introduced later, at an adult level, to people who are socially well adjusted. Indeed "the system" (as far as the term applies) agrees with me, and Ethics tends to be a requirement in adult education for most degrees. Ethics not being a class where they teach you right and wrong, but analyze morality itself, and various systems of right and wrong. A good ethics class will do things like make a point about how you can't even consider someone like Hitler wrong or evil without youself making a moral judgement, and then point out that even at that extreme level for every system of morality that condemns something there are probably going to be several others that disagree. To be honest I think kids who aren't grounded to begin with can't really grasp that and "taught" properly they might very well come away screaming "Hitler was right" or whatever, when that wasn't the point at all.

At the end of the day though you want your kid to be respectful of authority and treat his teachers and principals well, do what he's told when he's asked to clean his room, and understand that one day he's going to need to go out there and learn to take care of himself, etc... Kids exist in a very different world from adults that is both sheltered and more structured.

The argument (to sort of repete it again) that's being made against video games and such is not so much saying that only one form of morality should be taught. But that say a game about an ultra-violent anti-hero who does pretty much whatever he wants and feels any infringement on him is effectively evil and wrong, combined with a game that encourages this narrative in a fantastic concept can have a bad effect. Not because of the violence or over the top acts, but say because a kid who listens to this and hears it making sense might think "oh hey, I can still be right while doing whatever I want, I shouldn't have to listen to anyone, because anyone infringing on me is effectively wrong. Fighting for my complete freedom to do what I want and take what I need to survive is okay, especially if I'm willing to fight for other people to live that way too", and try and apply this to real life. Next thing you know the kid is mouthing off to his teachers and the principal in school, and gets violent if anyone tries to rein him in. I do not totally agree with this kind of analysis because I believe the problems go beyond video games, but on a lot of levels you can see where the arguments come from.... and while paranoid seeming, the bottom line is the problems with the youth nowadays ARE pretty extreme, and I mean beyond the typical "adult vs. teen" clashes we've seen throughout history, I mean previously you might have a few rebellious kids, and arguments over music, curfews, girls (or boys), or whatever else in whatever new shape of form it takes place... however in a few generations of students now we've gone to teachers wanting to arm themselves for protection (including some who have taught for decades), security guards, and everything else. Stuff like this makes the news with some frequency... I personally do not think it's just video games or whatever though because I'd point out that while it's a new format a lot of the same basic kinds of stuff and takes on "alternative morality" for anti-heroes have been here all along. I mean heck, they wrote how many hundred "Mack Bolan" novels over the decades? It's not like kids started getting violent because of video games that feature ultra violence against the bad guys and corrupt (or incompetent) authorities that require a hero to operate outside of society.

Therumancer:

Well, they didn't have security guards when I went to regular schools either (as far as that went, I have a very unusual backround), neither did my parents, or my grandparents, however today it's extremely common. What's more many schools want to institute X-rays, metal detectors, and similar things at the entrances to schools, the "rash" of school shootings helped fuel the possibility of it happening on a large scale, but even before Columbine people wanted to do this due to the rising problems with the youth. To people who don't really "see" the problems it's hard to understand what people are so concerned about. As "funny" as it might sound, I once read an article comparing the "C" grade movie "Class of 1999" to the state of actual schools a few years ago. "Class of 1999" was a movie where the students are so out of control even with security similar to a courthouse (detectors, etc...) going in and out, that they reprogram these military androids to be teachers, since real teachers just can't deal with the school environment (... and understand IRL there are efforts by teachers nowadays to demand the right to be armed). In the movie the environment is so out of control that the androids revert to military programming and start trying to wipe out the students as an enemy force, of course the students themselves are pretty heavily armed when you get down to it and hilarity ensues. Barring the campy science fiction elements... the point is that what at one time seemed crazily far fetched is shockingly close to the truth.

Well granted i can only speak about school state in my country, but we do not have such problems here, neither we have school shootings (or shootigns of any kind).

At any rate, we've pretty much said everything that is going be said on this subject. I'm largely explaining things as opposed to trying to actually defend the other side.

Fair enough. Im not arguing with "you", im arguing with "The position of what you explained".

When it comes to "instilling proper morality" though, I have to strongly disagree with you. Kids need to be taught how to get along within society.

Taught how to get along - yes. Forced to act certain way because "omg morality" - no.

I am not talking about conditioning kids to a specific religion or anything, but respect for authority (although not totally unquestioning obiedience), respect for property, respect for others, and similar things are all necessary.

Now this is nitpicking, but respoect for authority.... and the authority is who? Why does, for example, a teacher has authority? Is it because he knows more and teaches? What if a student know more than the teacher (happened with couple teachers where i ended up teaching him, mostly computer classes)? wouldnt then i be authority? Or is the arbitrary work contract already makes him somehow "Above" us. No. teachers are not authority. teachers are equals. and they should treat kids as equals, not as something to be looked down upon.
Respect for property - whos. Cause i have every right to not respect my own property. I realized that i should not destroy anyone elses property, and thats fair. respect isnt the word for it though.
Others? i dont respect others. i accept there are many other people with different veiws and that they have thei rght to have them. respect has to be earned though.

Understanding alternative morality is a good thing, but I believe it's something that should be introduced later, at an adult level, to people who are socially well adjusted.

So - brainwash them into our society and only once they are firmly rooted in it you introduce alternatives?

Indeed "the system" (as far as the term applies) agrees with me, and Ethics tends to be a requirement in adult education for most degrees. Ethics not being a class where they teach you right and wrong, but analyze morality itself, and various systems of right and wrong. A good ethics class will do things like make a point about how you can't even consider someone like Hitler wrong or evil without youself making a moral judgement, and then point out that even at that extreme level for every system of morality that condemns something there are probably going to be several others that disagree. To be honest I think kids who aren't grounded to begin with can't really grasp that and "taught" properly they might very well come away screaming "Hitler was right" or whatever, when that wasn't the point at all.

We had Ethics class since 2nd grade (you could chose between ethics and religion studies, which actually meant christian propaganda here, so i chose ethics). now the classes themselves did not provide such points but that says more about poor states of education than anything else. Yes, there are people who do think Hitler was right. And you know what - they have a right to thier opinion. Because the society is just a conjunction of opinions. A large enough amount of opinions think that people should have democracy - so they do. Society always comes down to majority. And theres nothing "moral" about it.

Kids exist in a very different world from adults that is both sheltered and more structured.

And that is a problem. How can you expect them to know how to act in the "Real world" when they never knew what the real world is like.

The argument (to sort of repete it again) that's being made against video games and such is not so much saying that only one form of morality should be taught. But that say a game about an ultra-violent anti-hero who does pretty much whatever he wants and feels any infringement on him is effectively evil and wrong, combined with a game that encourages this narrative in a fantastic concept can have a bad effect.

The argument could be able to stand if children would not be able to differ between real life and a videogame. We factually know that at least from 3 years and older - they do. therefore the argument is invalid.

Not because of the violence or over the top acts, but say because a kid who listens to this and hears it making sense might think "oh hey, I can still be right while doing whatever I want, I shouldn't have to listen to anyone, because anyone infringing on me is effectively wrong. Fighting for my complete freedom to do what I want and take what I need to survive is okay, especially if I'm willing to fight for other people to live that way too", and try and apply this to real life.

I remember the simpsons episdoe about getting rid of the government and how they ended up making identical structure with same people in charge to replace it. Kids will not apply this logic to real world because they know that in real world you cant just loot houses and sleep in them for 3 days if you get your bones broken. If they think that different type of government is better, then they bloody well have a right to think like that.

but on a lot of levels you can see where the arguments come from....

Yes, and i argue that this is undesirable.

however in a few generations of students now we've gone to teachers wanting to arm themselves for protection (including some who have taught for decades), security guards, and everything else. Stuff like this makes the news with some frequency...

I think it has more to do with the american madness for guns. The only thing they are obsessed more than sex is arming themselves thinking this solves anything.

Strazdas:

Therumancer:

Well, they didn't have security guards when I went to regular schools either (as far as that went, I have a very unusual backround), neither did my parents, or my grandparents, however today it's extremely common. What's more many schools want to institute X-rays, metal detectors, and similar things at the entrances to schools, the "rash" of school shootings helped fuel the possibility of it happening on a large scale, but even before Columbine people wanted to do this due to the rising problems with the youth. To people who don't really "see" the problems it's hard to understand what people are so concerned about. As "funny" as it might sound, I once read an article comparing the "C" grade movie "Class of 1999" to the state of actual schools a few years ago. "Class of 1999" was a movie where the students are so out of control even with security similar to a courthouse (detectors, etc...) going in and out, that they reprogram these military androids to be teachers, since real teachers just can't deal with the school environment (... and understand IRL there are efforts by teachers nowadays to demand the right to be armed). In the movie the environment is so out of control that the androids revert to military programming and start trying to wipe out the students as an enemy force, of course the students themselves are pretty heavily armed when you get down to it and hilarity ensues. Barring the campy science fiction elements... the point is that what at one time seemed crazily far fetched is shockingly close to the truth.

Well granted i can only speak about school state in my country, but we do not have such problems here, neither we have school shootings (or shootigns of any kind).

At any rate, we've pretty much said everything that is going be said on this subject. I'm largely explaining things as opposed to trying to actually defend the other side.

Fair enough. Im not arguing with "you", im arguing with "The position of what you explained".

When it comes to "instilling proper morality" though, I have to strongly disagree with you. Kids need to be taught how to get along within society.

Taught how to get along - yes. Forced to act certain way because "omg morality" - no.

[]
I think it has more to do with the american madness for guns. The only thing they are obsessed more than sex is arming themselves thinking this solves anything.

I find some of this kind of funny actually, what country are you from? I almost lost it when your saying "America Is Obsessed with sex" to be honest we're generally considered prudes by the international community, as sexual content tends to receive very high ratings compared to other countries. We also have a lot of laws about nudity and the like, and it was a big deal a while ago when Texas finally lifted a law making sex toys (dildos, etc...) illegal if I remember.

As far as gun obsession goes, an armed society is a free society, to be honest I'm very reluctant to take people from countries where the people aren't armed seriously when they make criticisms of societies that are or talk about how free they are. Largely because the point of the right to bear arms is to ensure the people are never entirely powerless before the government or authorities. Something that works with a number of other checks and balances to curtail the government ever having too much power or control. Honestly I think the big problem with violence in the USA is simply that we as a society have become far too tolerant for the environment we've created. For all their pretensions otherwise most countries tend to be very mono-ethnic, and while they have minorities they don't have quite as diverse a population in the same numbers, combined with extremely liberal attitudes about entitlement and empowerment. Say in Japan you look around and pretty much everyone you see is Japanese, outside of the most cosmopolitan areas it's fairly unusual to see many people who aren't Japanese even if there are a decent number spread throughout the entire country, they just don't have a huge prescence. The same can be said for a lot of Europe and the like. When everyone has pretty much the same shared history, ethnicity, idealogy, etc.. it's relatively easy to keep the peace. In the US when you can see dozens of different kinds of people in most major gathering places, combined with the fact that none of them have been forced to assimilate into US culture, you can imagine where the problems come from. Two groups of people that hate each other outside of the US, continue to hate each other in the US, because they still associate primarily with wherever they are from. What's more you run into problems where say you have people coming into the US taking it's policies about tolerance to the point of doing things like complaining about the display of the US flag (the flag of the country to which they now belong) in a school that is providing them with a free education during a foreign holiday like Cinco Del Mayo, with schools being forced to comply due to threats of violence.

To be honest I don't see guns as being the big problem, though shootings are a price well worth the freedoms they help to guarantee. I think a lot of it has to do with us not keeping our house in order, and pretty much letting anyone become a citizen no matter what they think or believe, which inevitably leads to conflict with others. If two groups hate each other out in the world at large, you can pretty much they've come to America at some point and taken it out on each other in the middle of the streets pretty much. This is something a lot of the world doesn't get, no nation, no matter how cosmopolitan it might consider itself, has ever been anything quite like the USA, so it's hard to really understand the problems.... or rather I should say I think the populance at large doesn't understand the problems, the governments of some other countries do. France for example has a history of trying to maintain a draconian immigration policy and almost dropped out of the EU it helped create initially due to the way it would allow other types of Europeans into France, and it didn't want the conflict. France has also been fairly vocal a few times about it's regrets over having let so many Muslims into the country, having dealt with a number of riots due to Muslims (who consider themselves Islamics before anything else) coming into conflict with a surrounding society to which they generally set themselves apart from.

At any rate, this is all besides the point. We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not think a 3 year old can fully determine the difference between fantasy and reality yet. 3 year olds still tend to believe in things like Santa Claus and that it's possible for him to deliver presents to every house in the world in one night. Any study which attempts to say otherwise is blowing smoke. That age is far too young to make any lasting determinations about.

As far as ethics go, the bottom line is that at the end of the day societies need to have rules and laws, and those rules and laws ultimately come down to moral judgements about right and wrong. Children need to be taught right and wrong as it applies to the society in which they will live before anything else. This is more or less a universal truth. When you start messing around with alternative morality too early, children who do not understand that and embrace it are going to wind up at odds with the rest of their own society, and that of course leads to problems. Simple things like the right to own personal property are for example not moral absolutes as communism and socialism (where everything belongs to the state to be distributed "fairly" based on contribution) are very much against the idea.

Of course this is also why at the end of the day global bloodbaths are inevitable. For humanity to survive we must unify into one global culture in order to reach the stars. This means at the end of the day humanity is going to need one set of laws and rules, to form a sort of "supernation" which means one defining morality behind those rules and laws. This is something not everyone will agree on, and will of course bring people adjusted for their own societies and way of life into inevitable conflict, and doubtlessly at some point the extermination of many people who did nothing wrong except be born into a losing civilization that taught them the wrong things by the standards of the victors. Without a global unity, humanity will die out, if nothing else due to resource depletion making it impossible to get into space to find more materials, followed by our star eventually dying while our barbaric decendants wallow in the
mud billions of years in the future. This rather dark point being irrelevant to the central point of the individual needing to fit into society. On a lot of levels the USA illustrates the problems in not doing this, more than a case study on why personal weapons ownership should be banned. At the end of the day in most shootings, the guy doing it tends to believe he was right, and of course the victim disagrees. In a surprising number of cases this comes down to people with totally divergent ideas of right and wrong being able unable to co-exist within the same society. Take all of the garbage we've encouraged in the US in our desire to "not be oppressive" and yeah, you wind up with tons of deviants blowing each other's heads off. Even if we took the guns, and every other kind of weapon away, we'd still see just as much violence in all likelihood because the people would just start killing each other with fists, feet, sticks, and stones.

Therumancer:

I find some of this kind of funny actually, what country are you from? I almost lost it when your saying "America Is Obsessed with sex" to be honest we're generally considered prudes by the international community, as sexual content tends to receive very high ratings compared to other countries. We also have a lot of laws about nudity and the like, and it was a big deal a while ago when Texas finally lifted a law making sex toys (dildos, etc...) illegal if I remember.

I am from lithuania, you can see that on my profile.
America is obsessed with sex. They are so obsessed they need to act like prudes to pretend to not be obsessed. Our whore houses dont have so much sex as your colledges. Why? because sex isnt the end goal for us. Your sex oppression has created obsession. There are plenty of good articles about it but to be honest im kinda tired after a trip now so i wont search for links.
Its strange that you didnt knew that, its sort of an elephant in the room by now.

As far as gun obsession goes, an armed society is a free society, to be honest I'm very reluctant to take people from countries where the people aren't armed seriously when they make criticisms of societies that are or talk about how free they are. Largely because the point of the right to bear arms is to ensure the people are never entirely powerless before the government or authorities. Something that works with a number of other checks and balances to curtail the government ever having too much power or control.

A safe society is a free society. If my neighbor carries a gun to his back yard and points it at my children - i dont fee safe. Yet since he "does nothing illegal" i am powerless (not free) to do anything about it. The Dream of government being overturned by armed civilians may have been possible back when the constitution of US was drafted, but it is not now. warfare has evolved a lot since then and a group of well trained sldiers will take armies of civilians out no matter the guns. its just something people cling to to hide real reasons they want to own a gun - because they wany to feel powerful (and possibly shoot something).
You know who had more power over thier government than we do now? Ancient romans. and they didnt have guns either. (though later army generals decided to become dictators, but the country was dieing by then)

Honestly I think the big problem with violence in the USA is simply that we as a society have become far too tolerant for the environment we've created. For all their pretensions otherwise most countries tend to be very mono-ethnic, and while they have minorities they don't have quite as diverse a population in the same numbers, combined with extremely liberal attitudes about entitlement and empowerment. Say in Japan you look around and pretty much everyone you see is Japanese, outside of the most cosmopolitan areas it's fairly unusual to see many people who aren't Japanese even if there are a decent number spread throughout the entire country, they just don't have a huge prescence. The same can be said for a lot of Europe and the like. When everyone has pretty much the same shared history, ethnicity, idealogy, etc.. it's relatively easy to keep the peace. In the US when you can see dozens of different kinds of people in most major gathering places, combined with the fact that none of them have been forced to assimilate into US culture, you can imagine where the problems come from. Two groups of people that hate each other outside of the US, continue to hate each other in the US, because they still associate primarily with wherever they are from. What's more you run into problems where say you have people coming into the US taking it's policies about tolerance to the point of doing things like complaining about the display of the US flag (the flag of the country to which they now belong) in a school that is providing them with a free education during a foreign holiday like Cinco Del Mayo, with schools being forced to comply due to threats of violence.

I agree here. Nationalism is a very real problem.

At any rate, this is all besides the point. We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not think a 3 year old can fully determine the difference between fantasy and reality yet. 3 year olds still tend to believe in things like Santa Claus and that it's possible for him to deliver presents to every house in the world in one night. Any study which attempts to say otherwise is blowing smoke. That age is far too young to make any lasting determinations about.

The difference between playing a videogame and your snataclause example is that with videogame a child knows that videogame is fantasy and not reality, while with santa claus the people who are highest autohrity - his parents, continuously lie to him and imply that it is the truth, even going so far as to play pranks on him (put presents while sleeping) and lie about seeing santa do that. You can teach people to think europeans have 3 arms if everyone tells them its true and they never saw an actual European. Thats how christianty indocrinates but thats going offtopic too much.

As far as ethics go, the bottom line is that at the end of the day societies need to have rules and laws, and those rules and laws ultimately come down to moral judgements about right and wrong. Children need to be taught right and wrong as it applies to the society in which they will live before anything else. This is more or less a universal truth. When you start messing around with alternative morality too early, children who do not understand that and embrace it are going to wind up at odds with the rest of their own society, and that of course leads to problems. Simple things like the right to own personal property are for example not moral absolutes as communism and socialism (where everything belongs to the state to be distributed "fairly" based on contribution) are very much against the idea.

Yes. However the mistke is what moral judgements it comes down to. Many people believe that it is some ultimate moral judgement that is the only correct one and unchanging, when in reality it is just a thing majority of current inhabitants think and/or agree on at the very moment. thats why laws arent set in stone, because they are based on current belief of people who follow them. there is not higher all encompasing morale. the societal rules are just something that works for majority of the people there are that moment. (majority, not everyone, we call people who have different opinions criminals). at the end of the day its just bunch of people opinions thrown together. And sometimes they dont represent majority, because we dont ahve universal suffrage with 100% attendance and everyone having knowledge on what candidates will actually do once elected. but we try the best we can. at least i do.
Aternative morality is healthy, becuase its alternative. people need to be able to see alternatives and pick the one they themselves think is correct one isntead of picking one that they were fed because somply they never heard of an alternative. only this way we can evolve. and yes, some of it may be painful and if that evolutino will turn to what we dont like we, well, wont like it, but thats the only way to truly make people think for themselves.
At what age, well, thats the real discussion here. I have been a lon proponent of removal of age rating system because i do not believe we can classify peoples intelligence or perception by age. ive seen 40 year olds act less mature than a 7 year olds. So im biased here.

Of course this is also why at the end of the day global bloodbaths are inevitable. For humanity to survive we must unify into one global culture in order to reach the stars. This means at the end of the day humanity is going to need one set of laws and rules, to form a sort of "supernation" which means one defining morality behind those rules and laws. This is something not everyone will agree on, and will of course bring people adjusted for their own societies and way of life into inevitable conflict, and doubtlessly at some point the extermination of many people who did nothing wrong except be born into a losing civilization that taught them the wrong things by the standards of the victors. Without a global unity, humanity will die out, if nothing else due to resource depletion making it impossible to get into space to find more materials, followed by our star eventually dying while our barbaric decendants wallow in the
mud billions of years in the future. This rather dark point being irrelevant to the central point of the individual needing to fit into society. On a lot of levels the USA illustrates the problems in not doing this, more than a case study on why personal weapons ownership should be banned. At the end of the day in most shootings, the guy doing it tends to believe he was right, and of course the victim disagrees. In a surprising number of cases this comes down to people with totally divergent ideas of right and wrong being able unable to co-exist within the same society. Take all of the garbage we've encouraged in the US in our desire to "not be oppressive" and yeah, you wind up with tons of deviants blowing each other's heads off. Even if we took the guns, and every other kind of weapon away, we'd still see just as much violence in all likelihood because the people would just start killing each other with fists, feet, sticks, and stones.

Global unity is a very long stretch goal. Its a good idea and i fully support it, but we cant just jump into it or we will end up like nazis who wanted "only their idea" to be the one covering the world. We could however start with united language. If we all could comunicate without language barrier it would be much easier to understand eachother. For example i often fail to express my real thoughts due to my inproper english knowledge. If whole world spoke the same language a lot of conflicts could be avoided.
I dont agree with "single morality" though. You can have united earth with united laws with alternative moralities. For example some people will think it is immoral to drink alcohol, and some do not. thats different moralities here. Does that mean if we got more of the first we should ban alcohol? Or could we allow the second one to get drunk as long as they do no damage to anyone? Its a primitive example, but you can see how different moralities can coexist.
As for your "dark remarks", this is exactly why you need to learn alternative moralities early on. If you know alternative exist and can understand their reasoning, you will be more rational about blind hate of anything you dont like. knowing alternative exist removes fundamentalism. and fundamentalism is what drives people that you describe.

Capcha: we like the moon
Well sure, Helium 3

Strazdas:

Therumancer:

I find some of this kind of funny actually, what country are you from? I almost lost it when your saying "America Is Obsessed with sex" to be honest we're generally considered prudes by the international community, as sexual content tends to receive very high ratings compared to other countries. We also have a lot of laws about nudity and the like, and it was a big deal a while ago when Texas finally lifted a law making sex toys (dildos, etc...) illegal if I remember.

I am from lithuania, you can see that on my profile.
America is obsessed with sex. They are so obsessed they need to act like prudes to pretend to not be obsessed. Our whore houses dont have so much sex as your colledges. Why? because sex isnt the end goal for us. Your sex oppression has created obsession. There are plenty of good articles about it but to be honest im kinda tired after a trip now so i wont search for links.
Its strange that you didnt knew that, its sort of an elephant in the room by now.

Global unity is a very long stretch goal. Its a good idea and i fully support it, but we cant just jump into it or we will end up like nazis who wanted "only their idea" to be the one covering the world. We could however start with united language. If we all could comunicate without language barrier it would be much easier to understand eachother. For example i often fail to express my real thoughts due to my inproper english knowledge. If whole world spoke the same language a lot of conflicts could be avoided.
I dont agree with "single morality" though. You can have united earth with united laws with alternative moralities. For example some people will think it is immoral to drink alcohol, and some do not. thats different moralities here. Does that mean if we got more of the first we should ban alcohol? Or could we allow the second one to get drunk as long as they do no damage to anyone? Its a primitive example, but you can see how different moralities can coexist.
As for your "dark remarks", this is exactly why you need to learn alternative moralities early on. If you know alternative exist and can understand their reasoning, you will be more rational about blind hate of anything you dont like. knowing alternative exist removes fundamentalism. and fundamentalism is what drives people that you describe.

Capcha: we like the moon
Well sure, Helium 3

Wait, what? Our colleges are massive rollicking sex orgies that put whorehouses to shame? Where do you get this impression from? Now yes, people have made movies joking around about things like that, but those movies are generally comedies that are trying to be funny by presenting a huge exaggeration.

Now if you wanted to be critical, you could point to teenage sex in the US in High Schools and such, and the problems that has caused, leading to a lot of arguments about sex education, and the distribution of condoms and such to teenagers as opposed to the standard practice of simply encouraging abstinence.

Of course given that the age of consent in Lithuania is only 14 apparently (http://www.evi.com/q/age_of_consent_lithuania) and you just talked about whorehouses like they operate legally, I don't see where you have much room to talk. By definition your country is far more sexually "free" and active than the US is likely to ever be. I won't make any moral judgements, but I'll be blunt in saying that simply propositioning a 14 year old in the US could get you thrown in jail and then put on a lifelong sex offender list... so uhh, no, the US isn't exactly a nation wide giant sex party, quite the opposite actually.

Typically comedies that portray the image of a more sexually "liberated" US are making fun of the entire system and trying to broadcast a message in the other direction in a lot of cases (but not always). At most being reflections of the idealogy of the creator, not what the US and it's laws are actually like.

Like everything though there *IS* an exception, in the US we have one particular state more or less set away for vice, and that's Nevada. Things like prostitution are legal in Nevada where it is outright banned in the other 49 states. Some cities like Las Vegas, known by the nickname "Sin City" here, can come close to the image that your suggesting, but college campuses and general day to day life? Not really. Simply buying adult entertainment can be tricky in the US due to needing special liscences to sell "X rated" movies, books, and video games, and most commercial areas are set up to directly forbid businesses specializing in that kind of thing from setting up. While every area DOES have some kind of "adult shop" around somewhere if you know where to look, sex is in general kept away from more general business dealings. You cannot for example go and buy an actual "adult film" at say Wal*Mart.

I suppose to an outsider things might seem a bit different because of the lengths Americans will occasionally go to in order to get this stuff, and most importantly get it quietly (at least from other Americans) to avoid attention and potential mockery. Porn still remains one thing that can be traded to the US pretty profitably if it can be done under the radar. Adult entertainment not being illegal, but as I said, it's a little more difficult to get than in a lot of other places.

-

As far as morality goes, at the end of the day the needs for societal stability are such that in the end we're going to need one global culture, set of laws, and behind that set of laws one standard of right and wrong. On some levels what Hitler wanted to do was more or less correct for what humanity needs, but some of the things he had going along with that, were absolutely insane.

In a more practical sense though, one needs to work within and accept the standards of society, if you allow each individual to decide what is right and wrong and act accordingly you cannot effectively regulate and maintain order, as you will inevitably see conflicts between both people who believe they are right. The simple question of property ownership, and whether someone has the right to own something, whether everything belongs to everyone, or whether everything belongs to the state and is simply being allowed to be used by the people at it's whim, is for example one
of the biggest issues facing the world today. That's what the conflicts between socialists, communists, and capitalists are all about in a nutshell. Within a society everyone needs to operate based on the same standards, and thus before entertaining anything else people been to be shown how to live within their society and operate according to what is expected of them. The point about a world unity however is that this means inevitably all the different cultures are going to need to dissolve into one, and that ultimately means fighting it out until there is only going to be ONE group into which everyone is brought. Ideally a lot of this is going to happen through the simple spread of ideas, but in the end there is going to be violence, mass murder, and potentially even genocide for the benefit of the collective humanity. What's more given global resource depletion and the increased need to unify and get off the planet to find more resources if nothing else, we don't exactly have a lot of time for humanity to be unified.

Of course this goes into some very dark places, and I am quite aware of how it sounds like many, many, tyrannical conquerors throughout history on a number of fundamental levels. The thing is that the world, and life, generally suck, the cost of any nessicary change in real life is going to be horrifying, unlike in fantasy stories where good and evil are clearly defined and everything is guaranteed to work out for everyone in the end, and everyone can live together peacefully. In short, in the crappy real world we live in, for anything to work out, the good guy basically has to be the villain, and any large, positive change is going to have to be paid for through excessive amounts of pain and misery, including the very survivial of the human race, for which such a world unity is ultimately going to be necessary.

razer17:
In the end of the day, the media that we consume CAN have an effect on some people. Is GTA going to turn people into crazy murderers? Probably not. Certainly not psychologically normal people. But if they don't have any effect, why don't we just scrap game ratings and sell CoD straight to 5 year olds?

Because most people feel safer when following what's already there, instead of thinking on their own and doing actual parenting. Personally I'd let any 5 year old play those games if they wanted to, except most of them don't want to, they don't see it as fun. From my experience with violent films and games, the most likely result would be it'll turn them off violence completely, not get them addicted to it.

Now, I have to ask this twice, once for each thread:

Shouldn't the presence of a pro violent video game study and an anti violent video game study side-by-side cause some sort of paradox, space distortion, or matter/anti-matter explosion?

Therumancer:
[quote="Strazdas" post="7.834375.20460018"]
Wait, what? Our colleges are massive rollicking sex orgies that put whorehouses to shame? Where do you get this impression from? Now yes, people have made movies joking around about things like that, but those movies are generally comedies that are trying to be funny by presenting a huge exaggeration.

Now if you wanted to be critical, you could point to teenage sex in the US in High Schools and such, and the problems that has caused, leading to a lot of arguments about sex education, and the distribution of condoms and such to teenagers as opposed to the standard practice of simply encouraging abstinence.

Of course given that the age of consent in Lithuania is only 14 apparently (http://www.evi.com/q/age_of_consent_lithuania) and you just talked about whorehouses like they operate legally, I don't see where you have much room to talk. By definition your country is far more sexually "free" and active than the US is likely to ever be. I won't make any moral judgements, but I'll be blunt in saying that simply propositioning a 14 year old in the US could get you thrown in jail and then put on a lifelong sex offender list... so uhh, no, the US isn't exactly a nation wide giant sex party, quite the opposite actually.

Typically comedies that portray the image of a more sexually "liberated" US are making fun of the entire system and trying to broadcast a message in the other direction in a lot of cases (but not always). At most being reflections of the idealogy of the creator, not what the US and it's laws are actually like.

Like everything though there *IS* an exception, in the US we have one particular state more or less set away for vice, and that's Nevada. Things like prostitution are legal in Nevada where it is outright banned in the other 49 states. Some cities like Las Vegas, known by the nickname "Sin City" here, can come close to the image that your suggesting, but college campuses and general day to day life? Not really. Simply buying adult entertainment can be tricky in the US due to needing special liscences to sell "X rated" movies, books, and video games, and most commercial areas are set up to directly forbid businesses specializing in that kind of thing from setting up. While every area DOES have some kind of "adult shop" around somewhere if you know where to look, sex is in general kept away from more general business dealings. You cannot for example go and buy an actual "adult film" at say Wal*Mart.

I suppose to an outsider things might seem a bit different because of the lengths Americans will occasionally go to in order to get this stuff, and most importantly get it quietly (at least from other Americans) to avoid attention and potential mockery. Porn still remains one thing that can be traded to the US pretty profitably if it can be done under the radar. Adult entertainment not being illegal, but as I said, it's a little more difficult to get than in a lot of other places.

-

As far as morality goes, at the end of the day the needs for societal stability are such that in the end we're going to need one global culture, set of laws, and behind that set of laws one standard of right and wrong. On some levels what Hitler wanted to do was more or less correct for what humanity needs, but some of the things he had going along with that, were absolutely insane.

In a more practical sense though, one needs to work within and accept the standards of society, if you allow each individual to decide what is right and wrong and act accordingly you cannot effectively regulate and maintain order, as you will inevitably see conflicts between both people who believe they are right. The simple question of property ownership, and whether someone has the right to own something, whether everything belongs to everyone, or whether everything belongs to the state and is simply being allowed to be used by the people at it's whim, is for example one
of the biggest issues facing the world today. That's what the conflicts between socialists, communists, and capitalists are all about in a nutshell. Within a society everyone needs to operate based on the same standards, and thus before entertaining anything else people been to be shown how to live within their society and operate according to what is expected of them. The point about a world unity however is that this means inevitably all the different cultures are going to need to dissolve into one, and that ultimately means fighting it out until there is only going to be ONE group into which everyone is brought. Ideally a lot of this is going to happen through the simple spread of ideas, but in the end there is going to be violence, mass murder, and potentially even genocide for the benefit of the collective humanity. What's more given global resource depletion and the increased need to unify and get off the planet to find more resources if nothing else, we don't exactly have a lot of time for humanity to be unified.

Of course this goes into some very dark places, and I am quite aware of how it sounds like many, many, tyrannical conquerors throughout history on a number of fundamental levels. The thing is that the world, and life, generally suck, the cost of any nessicary change in real life is going to be horrifying, unlike in fantasy stories where good and evil are clearly defined and everything is guaranteed to work out for everyone in the end, and everyone can live together peacefully. In short, in the crappy real world we live in, for anything to work out, the good guy basically has to be the villain, and any large, positive change is going to have to be paid for through excessive amounts of pain and misery, including the very survivial of the human race, for which such a world unity is ultimately going to be necessary.

I made this deduction after looking up some data and talking to people in said coleldges. No hard evidence i know. But pretty much everyone know about americas obsessions.

The age of consent is technically at 14. However that includes concention, same age and parental guidence. the parents have to actually agree and be there for this to be legal. The actual age where a person is able to decide on its own to have sex without needing of parent permission is 18. Prostitution is illegal here sadly. being sex free and sex obsessed are different things. We are more free as far as sex goes, i agree. but we care much less about it. on the other hand sex is considered a ultimate "Act of rebellion" according to people i talked to. Here sex is just that - sex. nothing more nothing less.
USA produces more pornography than the rest of the world combined, so thats a very lucrative business right there.

See, as you yourself said, Hitler was "insane" from our perspective, but from perspective of people who followed him it was us that was the crazy ones. So yeah, in the end it may just be a numbers game where majority will outlaw the minority and we become homogenous robots.

Thats why we have concept of rights. Every person has a right to believe what is right or wrong for himself, however his right ends when that inflicts harm on another being. And it does not matter whether it is a nazi beating up a pacifist or the other way around. As long as you are not harming other people you can be a nazi. Standards are decided by majority. Thats really all there is. And laws and regulations are not static. They change and adapt to situation, and "one concept of right and wrong" will be nothing more than the same concept that "its more beneficial not to kill eachother" taken to more extreme notion.
I can understand where you are coming from when it comes to united nation. However i am arguing that we ca reach that without elimination of alternative morality, but by embracing it. Your way is tyrannical. Mine is liberal. Who is right only time will show.

Strazdas:

I can understand where you are coming from when it comes to united nation. However i am arguing that we ca reach that without elimination of alternative morality, but by embracing it. Your way is tyrannical. Mine is liberal. Who is right only time will show.

True, we will have to agree to disagree and see what happens, if anything ever does in either of our lifetimes.

That said, I would point out that by definition any set of laws is going to be a "Tyranny" you've already agreed that a world unity is necessary and that is going to require everyone being unified under one set of laws and conduct.

To put this in a very real context, let's look at rape as an issue. Rape is wrong right? The person doing the attacking is a criminal? Well according to Islam and Islamic law that's not necessarily the case. We've had cases where women have been stoned to death for not marrying the guy who raped them (literally, it made global news at one point), and the whole concept of wifely duties. Now granted, not every Islamic might follow that legal or belief structure, but millions upon millions do within theocratic cultures. To say something even as basic as "rape is a crime" and make that a global law involves making moral judgements and then enforcing them "tyrannically". What's more in passing laws even that simple your probably going to wind up having to kill millions upon millions of people who are going to oppose you for spiritual, as opposed to rational, reasons as that is the basis for their beliefs, and they are just not going to surrender when they think that what amounts to their right engage in rape is a divinely mandated right.

The point I'm simply making is, how do you achieve a global unity while still remaining liberal? Even the most basic human rights are not someone everyone agrees on. I suppose you could say that "alternative morality is okay as long as it fits within certain guidelines" but then again that basically just amounts to making the basic rules rather broad,
at the end of the day any society, or civilization, requires tyranny to function for the sake of everyone, it's simply
a question of how far that tyranny goes and what it enforces.

The world basically sucks, but those are our eventual options, a global unity, which will ultimately involve a degree of tyranny by the standards of a lot of people around right now, or the complete and total death of humanity due to remaining planet locked and seeing the resources here depleted... which leads to mass deaths and tyranny anyway as socities collapse, so you might as well do it pursueing the outcome that's going to be best for our species and it's survival.

Therumancer:

Strazdas:

I can understand where you are coming from when it comes to united nation. However i am arguing that we ca reach that without elimination of alternative morality, but by embracing it. Your way is tyrannical. Mine is liberal. Who is right only time will show.

True, we will have to agree to disagree and see what happens, if anything ever does in either of our lifetimes.

That said, I would point out that by definition any set of laws is going to be a "Tyranny" you've already agreed that a world unity is necessary and that is going to require everyone being unified under one set of laws and conduct.

To put this in a very real context, let's look at rape as an issue. Rape is wrong right? The person doing the attacking is a criminal? Well according to Islam and Islamic law that's not necessarily the case. We've had cases where women have been stoned to death for not marrying the guy who raped them (literally, it made global news at one point), and the whole concept of wifely duties. Now granted, not every Islamic might follow that legal or belief structure, but millions upon millions do within theocratic cultures. To say something even as basic as "rape is a crime" and make that a global law involves making moral judgements and then enforcing them "tyrannically". What's more in passing laws even that simple your probably going to wind up having to kill millions upon millions of people who are going to oppose you for spiritual, as opposed to rational, reasons as that is the basis for their beliefs, and they are just not going to surrender when they think that what amounts to their right engage in rape is a divinely mandated right.

The point I'm simply making is, how do you achieve a global unity while still remaining liberal? Even the most basic human rights are not someone everyone agrees on. I suppose you could say that "alternative morality is okay as long as it fits within certain guidelines" but then again that basically just amounts to making the basic rules rather broad,
at the end of the day any society, or civilization, requires tyranny to function for the sake of everyone, it's simply
a question of how far that tyranny goes and what it enforces.

The world basically sucks, but those are our eventual options, a global unity, which will ultimately involve a degree of tyranny by the standards of a lot of people around right now, or the complete and total death of humanity due to remaining planet locked and seeing the resources here depleted... which leads to mass deaths and tyranny anyway as socities collapse, so you might as well do it pursueing the outcome that's going to be best for our species and it's survival.

liberal does not mean no rules applied. That would be anarchy. Yes, the rules should be very broad. Your rights would end only when your actions or inaction are causing damage to other people. In this case Rape is.
You are correct that every rule is in a sense a authocracy, but that does not necessarely make it a tyranny. Tiranny is when said rule is harmful to society as a whole.
The problem with Islamic rape is that it is not caused by their morality but rather by religiuos teachings, which is basically your opening argument of "no alternative morality allowed". Not allowing alternative morality examples is what causes these beliefs to begin with.

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