Torment: Tides of Numenera Backers Vote For Turn-Based Combat

Torment: Tides of Numenera Backers Vote For Turn-Based Combat

Torment

inXile believes turn-based combat will be "a stronger fit" for Torment: Tides of Numenera

Back in March, inXile, hot on the heels of its successful Kickstarter to make a modern day sequel to the PC classic Wasteland, launched a second campaign to raise funds for Torment: Tides of Numenera. Pegged as a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment, one of the most well-regarded RPGs ever made, it reached its goal of $900,000 in mere hours and would go on to raise than $4 million before time ran out.

In November however, the studio asked backers for some input a bit less monetary in nature. With the team on the fence about where to take the game's combat, it asked contributors to vote on whether they'd prefer turn-based combat, a la the original Fallout, or real-time action with pause features as seen in games like Baldur's Gate.

Well, the tally is in and inXile has announced that, based on the collected votes, it will be going with turn-based combat. The results were agreeable to the game's development team. "We were leaning toward turn-based combat because we believe it's better suited for the kind of tactical complexity we're looking for," said inXile in an announcement on the project's Kickstarter page. "We believe it's a stronger fit for bringing narrative elements, including dialogue with NPCs, into hand-crafted combat situations." Turn-based combat won the vote by a mere percentage point with 48 percent voters choosing turn-based and 47 percent voting for real-time combat. The remaining voters said they were "indifferent." The voting pool included nearly 20 percent of the game's contributors and numbered just over 15,000.

Source: Kickstarter

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I'd honestly prefer real-time a la Baldur's Gate, but "original Fallout" style sounds cool too.

This is the one game I'm super hyped for to the point of expecting it to be the savior of CRPGs. Let's hope they don't fuck it up.

As someone who prefers turn based combat, something you need to consider is avoiding 'pointless' fights. Otherwise, easy battles turn into absolute grinds because no matter how easy they are, you still have to go through the turns. That can really become brutal in a pure turn based system.

Clive Howlitzer:
As someone who prefers turn based combat, something you need to consider is avoiding 'pointless' fights. Otherwise, easy battles turn into absolute grinds because no matter how easy they are, you still have to go through the turns. That can really become brutal in a pure turn based system.

thankfully they have already said they will be avoiding that

I heartily approve of this decision. This is one of those games I wish I had the money to back when they were on Kickstarter.

Scars Unseen:
I heartily approve of this decision. This is one of those games I wish I had the money to back when they were on Kickstarter.

Same here. I had really overstretched myself backing other projects when this one started up and really regretted not being able to contrubute. :(

Yeah they said that as it was so close it was essentially a tie, especially with three times as many 'indifferent' votes as the difference between those who chose one or the other; so they felt they could go with the option they wanted to do most and thought would be the best fit for the game. This was turn-based combat.

The email they sent out explaining the decision was well-reasoned and informative so while I voted RTwP, I'm really happy with the outcome. Actually the explanation can be read in the most recent Kickstarter update, linked in OP.

Clive Howlitzer:
As someone who prefers turn based combat, something you need to consider is avoiding 'pointless' fights. Otherwise, easy battles turn into absolute grinds because no matter how easy they are, you still have to go through the turns. That can really become brutal in a pure turn based system.

They've essentially said that there'll be no trash mobs in this game, that each combat situation will be planned fully - so it sounds like they're well on-top of looking out for and combating that particular problem.

StewShearer:

Scars Unseen:
I heartily approve of this decision. This is one of those games I wish I had the money to back when they were on Kickstarter.

Same here. I had really overstretched myself backing other projects when this one started up and really regretted not being able to contrubute. :(

https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/store

They're still accepting "donations" and by donations, they basically mean kickstarter tiers without the kickstarter. Tier's as low as $5 and of interest : the $45 tier nets you both Tides and Wasteland 2 :)

As to the topic, always expected it to be close, they've said all along they want to avoid having "trash mobs" so hopefully they do and it works out well for them. I'm just looking forward to getting back into the setting. If they come close to the fun that Torment was, they'll have an awesome game on their hands.

Never really heard of this game, but I guess its worth checking out.

erttheking:
Never really heard of this game, but I guess its worth checking out.

You should play Planescape Torment if you haven't already. The UI is godawful since it hasn't aged well, but it's considered by many to be the best Western RPG ever written.

I think it's one of those games everyone should experience.

Que 20% of backers saying "The game is ruined" and "I want a refound" and "This isn't in the spirit of the first game."

I'd actually be cool with both, I just don't wanna see this WoW-rip off combat system anymore games like Dragon Age suffer from.

Oh come on. I was hoping for it to be closer to Planescape. I could never get into Fallout because of the combat system.

Ishal:

erttheking:
Never really heard of this game, but I guess its worth checking out.

You should play Planescape Torment if you haven't already. The UI is godawful since it hasn't aged well, but it's considered by many to be the best Western RPG ever written.

I think it's one of those games everyone should experience.

I have a fucking mac, so I'm kind of up shit creek without a paddle there. Also I'm having a hard time getting into the classic fallouts, not a lot of stuff is really explained for me there and the interface is kinda clunky. The manual is digital and switching back and forth between the game and that is not a very smooth transition and scrolling through the doc trying to find the page you're looking for isn't that natural feeling either. I haven't played in awhile and I'm probably going to go back and give it another shot, but sometimes I feel like some classic games just don't resonate with me. I mean I WANT to enjoy it and I'd probably want to enjoy Planescape Torment but...sometimes a game and you don't mesh that well you know? Maybe after a break I'll be able to come back to it with a fresh mind, but I don't know.

Works for me. I sometimes felt that RTwP could get a little overwhelming in the Baldur's Gate games and the original Planescape. Something closer to Fallout or Xcom: Enemy Unknown will make it easier for me to plan ahead.

erttheking:
Snip

Don't sweat it too much, classic CRPGs are indeed classics, but they're also some of the hardest games to go back and "get into". Between abysmal UIs, clunky old mechanics, dated graphics, the endless tweaks you need to do, and occasionally rubbish pacing, it requires a hell of a lot of patience and you can't really be blamed for not enjoying yourself with them. Personally, that's why I'm looking forward to Torment, Project Eternity, Divinity: Original Sin, and the like, because I don't really like the mechanics of most of the 1998-2005 CRPGs, but I really want to get into those worlds and everything.

OT: I think, if they could've managed it, they should've gone for an Arcanum-style combat system that allows the player to choose between real-time or turn-based, but since I prefer turn-based for isometric party-based games anyway, I'm pretty happy with this end result myself.

erttheking:

Ishal:

erttheking:
Never really heard of this game, but I guess its worth checking out.

You should play Planescape Torment if you haven't already. The UI is godawful since it hasn't aged well, but it's considered by many to be the best Western RPG ever written.

I think it's one of those games everyone should experience.

I have a fucking mac, so I'm kind of up shit creek without a paddle there. Also I'm having a hard time getting into the classic fallouts, not a lot of stuff is really explained for me there and the interface is kinda clunky. The manual is digital and switching back and forth between the game and that is not a very smooth transition and scrolling through the doc trying to find the page you're looking for isn't that natural feeling either. I haven't played in awhile and I'm probably going to go back and give it another shot, but sometimes I feel like some classic games just don't resonate with me. I mean I WANT to enjoy it and I'd probably want to enjoy Planescape Torment but...sometimes a game and you don't mesh that well you know? Maybe after a break I'll be able to come back to it with a fresh mind, but I don't know.

I know that feel.

I have issues with it as well. Believe me.

But at least you are willing to explore them and you want to like them. I mean, you don't need to WANT to like something, I think having that forceful attitude can be a detriment sometimes. But I'm glad you have that attitude.

I always get sadfaced when people post about not being able to deal with silent protagonists or no dialogue trees. As if text was somehow taboo now.

I'm fine with this. I miss turned based combat and was very happen when it remained with the new Xcom games. I was already pretty interested in this title but now I'm even more so. While I'm not keen on backing stuff via kickstater, I will happily purchase it when it rolls out on Steam.

Sad end. The game will be worse for it.

The devs had an agenda from the start. They stacked the hell out of the "pros" of TB in the write-up and a lot of people just took it at face value, didn't think about it at all.

No, TB isn't more thoughtful. I'm paused, I can think all I want.
No, TB doesn't have "more potential for complex options without overwhelming a player". In RTwP, I'm paused! What's wrong with you?!

Let's be clear. They wanted to save time and money cannibalizing WL2's combat system. That was motive #1. They didn't want to write AIs. They didn't want to work hard.

Candidus:
Sad end. The game will be worse for it.

The devs had an agenda from the start. They stacked the hell out of the "pros" of TB in the write-up and a lot of people just took it at face value, didn't think about it at all.

No, TB isn't more thoughtful. I'm paused, I can think all I want.
No, TB doesn't have "more potential for complex options without overwhelming a player". In RTwP, I'm paused! What's wrong with you?!

Let's be clear. They wanted to save time and money cannibalizing WL2's combat system. That was motive #1. They didn't want write AIs. They didn't want to work hard.

Which is pretty damn understandable, considering the relatively limited funds they have to make this game. Completely acceptable motivation.

The people whining about this voting process and the result are uppity crybabies. It's not like turnbased combat is hell on earth for RPGs. Jeez...

I don't how anyone could get upset about this.

It's combat! If this is anything like Planescape: Torment then the combat should be the most unimportant part of the game!

*sigh* Damn morons, don't they understand that they can make a combat system that can handle both forms and please either side on this issue?

Here is the thing... it is decidedly not at all any kind of successor to Planescape Torment if you change the combat. It's a completely different style of game now. Just to clarify: It's not the same universe, doesn't have the same characters, and the play style is now completely different. This is not a successor to a beloved game. I don't care, I can take either one, to be completely honest. I'm sure the game is going to be fine. Just... stop calling it what it no longer is.

Baresark:
Here is the thing... it is decidedly not at all any kind of successor to Planescape Torment if you change the combat. It's a completely different style of game now. Just to clarify: It's not the same universe, doesn't have the same characters, and the play style is now completely different. This is not a successor to a beloved game. I don't care, I can take either one, to be completely honest. I'm sure the game is going to be fine. Just... stop calling it what it no longer is.

It's a successor because it follows the same kind of themes as the other game.

1) A more personal storyline than the typical 'save the world' RPG storyline, focusing on life and death.

2) It's in a very bizarre setting, instead of a generic Tolkien-esque fantasy land.

3) An emphasis on conversation over combat

A game doesn't need to have the same characters or gameplay system as it's predecessor to be a successor. The Final Fantasy games don't share characters or storylines (aside for the sequels to specific entries, like X-2), and they usually change the combat system between games... but because all the games tend to follow the same sort of style, they count as successors.

Or take System Shock and Bioshock. There are no characters shared between the two, and despite both being in First Person the gameplay is radically different between the two. But Bioshock is still a spiritual successor because it follows the same kind of themes as System Shock.

I don't mind if it's turn based to be honest, although I would of preffered a Baldur's Gate`esque combat system with a full time combat and active pause instead.

Oh well regardless, I will play the hell out of this game once it gets released. Hope to see more news about it soon.

They could try to implement both systems a la Fallout Tactics and give the player a choice in the options menu. I personally voted for the turn based but I wish they wouldn't neglect the other 47%'s opinion.

Valderis:
*sigh* Damn morons, don't they understand that they can make a combat system that can handle both forms and please either side on this issue?

They actually specifically addressed this idea in their blog.

ehhh

I would have much preferred it to be like Planescape Torment and be real time (but with fixed path finding), its by no means a deal breaker but a little dissapointing.

I mean heck in those 2nd AD&D games you could easily set it up so that it would pause at the end of each turn and that pleased both the real time lovers and turn based lovers.

[REDACTED]:

Valderis:
*sigh* Damn morons, don't they understand that they can make a combat system that can handle both forms and please either side on this issue?

They actually specifically addressed this idea in their blog.

They are wrong, all you need is a combat system that handles identically in both turn based and real time. You essentially have one combat system which is real time, however all of its elements are made to fit turn based combat, all you have to do to switch between the two modes is how time flows. In real time mode things flow normal, in turn based time skips along set increments.

If its done right you would not even need to develop a separate AI.

Valderis:

[REDACTED]:

Valderis:
*sigh* Damn morons, don't they understand that they can make a combat system that can handle both forms and please either side on this issue?

They actually specifically addressed this idea in their blog.

They are wrong, all you need is a combat system that handles identically in both turn based and real time. You essentially have one combat system which is real time, however all of its elements are made to fit turn based combat, all you have to do to switch between the two modes is how time flows. In real time mode things flow normal, in turn based time skips along set increments.

If its done right you would not even need to develop a separate AI.

...And then you get a combat system like that of Neverwinter Nights which was... okay. When you divide real time into rounds, you still get awkward pauses in which no one is really doing anything, which is normally what you want to avoid with real-time combat.

I'm a Torment backer, and I voted for TB. At first, I thought the same as many other people in this thread did - Planescape and Baldur's Gate were in real-time, easy battles are slow and boring in TB (as opposed to fast and boring in RT), etc.

But then I remembered the hardest fights I had in Planescape and especially Baldur's Gate, the ones where I had to micromanage like crazy and basically mash the spacebar every in-game second to make sure everyone was alive and under control. I remembered how much of a pain it was to manage a party full of NPCs whose AI was basically good enough to do default attacks and not much else (don't get me started on spellcasters). I remembered fighting dragons in battles that took under a minute of in-game time but easily twenty minutes of real time.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but TB is really easier in most situations. Yes, it can be slow, but I'll take a slow, methodical fight over a hectic frenzy. Besides, we're adapting a tabletop roleplaying system, and Numenera, like most TTRPGS, is made for turn-based combat. Having the videogame be turn-based too makes for simpler rules conversion.

And that seriously, pissed me off... well i'm exagerating, but i am disapointed... I was sold a Planescape: Torment spiritual sucessor... and that game had real time with pause options combats, not turn based, like Fallout... (and yes i backed the game and i did vote) Well i'm disapointed, but heh will see how it turn out

Blarg Blargson:

Valderis:

[REDACTED]:

They actually specifically addressed this idea in their blog.

They are wrong, all you need is a combat system that handles identically in both turn based and real time. You essentially have one combat system which is real time, however all of its elements are made to fit turn based combat, all you have to do to switch between the two modes is how time flows. In real time mode things flow normal, in turn based time skips along set increments.

If its done right you would not even need to develop a separate AI.

...And then you get a combat system like that of Neverwinter Nights which was... okay. When you divide real time into rounds, you still get awkward pauses in which no one is really doing anything, which is normally what you want to avoid with real-time combat.

I'm a Torment backer, and I voted for TB. At first, I thought the same as many other people in this thread did - Planescape and Baldur's Gate were in real-time, easy battles are slow and boring in TB (as opposed to fast and boring in RT), etc.

But then I remembered the hardest fights I had in Planescape and especially Baldur's Gate, the ones where I had to micromanage like crazy and basically mash the spacebar every in-game second to make sure everyone was alive and under control. I remembered how much of a pain it was to manage a party full of NPCs whose AI was basically good enough to do default attacks and not much else (don't get me started on spellcasters). I remembered fighting dragons in battles that took under a minute of in-game time but easily twenty minutes of real time.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but TB is really easier in most situations. Yes, it can be slow, but I'll take a slow, methodical fight over a hectic frenzy. Besides, we're adapting a tabletop roleplaying system, and Numenera, like most TTRPGS, is made for turn-based combat. Having the videogame be turn-based too makes for simpler rules conversion.

you ralise you could just have set the option to pause at the end of each turns?

Talvrae:
you ralise you could just have set the option to pause at the end of each turns?

Yes, but I don't believe that would have made things faster or more convenient. Essentially, that would turn RT gameplay into awkward TB gameplay.

Blarg Blargson:
...

I don't disagree with you but look at it from this way, this is a kickstarter project, their backers are divided on this as evenly as you can get, they are disappointing 48% of their backers with this move and are going against how the original game worked.

Wouldn't you rather see them push boundaries in game design and develop something that can do both?

The problems you mention stem from poor design rather then an inherent disadvantage from a real-time combat system, spent enough time and effort on solving those issues and you'll have a much better game, rather then going the easy way out and provide an safe experience thats just ok.

EDIT: After all, its not like these guys can be short on cash for this since they raised like 4 times the money for this project.

Valderis:

Blarg Blargson:
...

I don't disagree with you but look at it from this way, this is a kickstarter project, their backers are divided on this as evenly as you can get, they are disappointing 48% of their backers with this move and are going against how the original game worked.

Wouldn't you rather see them push boundaries in game design and develop something that can do both?

The problems you mention stem from poor design rather then an inherent disadvantage from a real-time combat system, spent enough time and effort on solving those issues and you'll have a much better game, rather then going the easy way out and provide an safe experience thats just ok.

EDIT: After all, its not like these guys can be short on cash for this since they raised like 4 times the money for this project.

They did raise a helluva lot of money, but you shouldn't confuse that with "Unlimited Funds". Just look what happened with Broken Age. Since it looks like combat will be a very small part of the finished game, I'm glad that they're focusing more on the other aspects.

 

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