PAX Will "Roll For Diversity" Next Year

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Robert Marrs:

neoontime:

Brian Tams:
Um... is anyone else getting a separate but equal vibe, or is it just me?

Nope, as you can see from all the people before you, it's not easy at all to HORRIBLY JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!

OT: Oh GOD! Really escapees, do we really have to confuse inclusiveness with reverse racism?! Just the thought of making an industry less White male focused is so much to get a negative reaction.

Thanks for reminding me the escapist is part of the internets so I should expect to see "responses" like this.

Uhhg, I apologize to the decent people who just held back the stupid remarks or those who said they where completely okay with for grouping you with them. I need a break!

Honestly though lets just say you take every person who really games as a hobby. Not including the family that owns a Wii and plays it on the weekends or the guy who plays angry birds on the way home from work but the type of gamers who actually go to these conventions. The people who are out buying the games day one, making videos of them etc who logically would be the people that the industry would focus on. Now take all those people put them in massive field and separate them by race and gender. If the group of white males is significantly larger than all the other groups is it really a bad thing that the industry chooses to focus on that group? I am all for being more inclusive but I don't think its wrong for the industry to focus on its probably well researched majority and I do think its understandable for the people who are happy in that setting to be against change. Going to a place where you are the minority and demanding change because you don't like some of those things they have been doing for years would usually result in people telling you "if you don't like it then fuck off somewhere else" and they would have a right to do it.

Yeah suppose you're right. I suppose if people want to be included, everyone has the right to be an asshole and as you said, tell them to "fuck off somewhere else". I agree with that of course I understand that people are being assholes but I don't know why. This is an event that is giving the opportunity to include more people, since the industry is the way it is, by offering areas "open to everyone"-so I do not f*cking understand why anyone would confuse this with segregation- that express more than of the culture than the white male dominated aspects. These areas are also from free booth spaces so they're not taking anything else away. I'm upset that people for some reason have really invalid reasons why they are against this, when it is simply an addition that is not primarily of there interest.

Robert Marrs:

Fenrox Jackson:

Robert Marrs:

I am genuinely curious why you seem so up in arms about rape jokes or just rape in general. Of course its bad. Everyone knows its wrong to rape people. I just don't understand why its such an issue to make fun of it, sell merchandise around it, or have it in video games while at the same time literally every single deplorable crime a human can commit is fair game. Why is rape the one thing you consider to be off limits?

First, you are wrong about rape. It is NOT looked down on universally and it is not "just the fringe" of people who are into it. I wish that logical world was our world, and existed, but it TOTALLY DOESN'T. Heck, Roast Busters was a NZ group that promoted raping young girls. It was a popular FB page and a known element in the community. It was a fight just to get Facebook to remove a pro-rape and rape planning page.

So when it comes to rape you need sensitivity and understanding. When it comes to rape jokes you need a tremendous amount of understanding! Because you need to be able to subvert it. Rape jokes fail if they don't denounce the rape in some way, or if the butt of the joke is the victim. Honestly, you are part of the problem if you can't see what the big deal on rape is. You should be able to empathize with people to the point of understanding their fear and pain, one way to do this is imagining if it happened to you. If you had a traumatic, violating experience that nobody will help you with or even believe you, and it starts to ruin all relationships you have and destroy your life, you will have the ability to reference it in a respectful way.

And this is the same with torture or murder, if you were affected by murder in a similar way you might not be cool with caviler murder in games. It's possible to do all this the right way but again, you need some really capable person that can hit all the right points.

Its not treated the same as torture and murder though. My best friends dad has severe ptsd from vietnam. He can't watch war related anything without it triggering him. He has terrible nightmares every night and always sleeps on the couch because he thinks its safer. What he does not do is tell the whole world they can't make jokes about vietnam or war. He does not spend he free time trying to censor other people because of the tragedy he experienced. I feel like society could in fact do with being more sensitive to peoples feelings as a whole but that does not mean demonizing every person who does not share the same sentiment. Rape victims are not special. They are not any more important than any other victim of a traumatic event and should not be treated as such.

Also I don't buy the whole "rape culture" thing for a second as least in the western civilized world. Just like you can find groups that revel in rape you can find the same for cannibalism, murder or child molestation. Any group of weirdos will find other weirdos to congregate with but that does not dismiss societies view of a crime. Even other criminals in prison single out rapists as being worse criminals deserving of extra punishment. When someone is accused of rape they are branded with that for the rest of their lives and it can totally ruin them regardless of whether they were convicted or even guilty in the first place. That does not sound like "rape culture" to me at all. Its like calling gaming as a whole sexist. Just because there is some sexism does not mean it represents gaming as a whole. Now places in the middle east where rape victims can be punished and rape is not just legally but socially acceptable absolutely has a rape culture but this is not present anywhere that I am aware of in the western world.

So, you are wrong, you don't appear to want to have any discussion on the matter so I don't know how to help you. You say that murder gave your bf's dad ptsd, well I think that is made up. PTSD is a myth perpetrated by whiny people that just get off on lying. He has never seen battle and sure you could cherry pick some elements from the 3rd world where murder caused PTSD.

See, the argument where I just don't believe a part of a story is not productive. You believe in PTSD, PTSD is nothing or everything on a case by case basis, some people are cowed to their core, others literally brush it off. Rape is however different, people don't accuse you of lying when you have been in war, they don't deny that any harm EVER took place, they don't suggest that it was actually all your fault for dressing up like, they don't accuse you of being a serial killer (Analogous to slut).

So as to your point of rape victims being too loud and obnoxious, again, people do not have a logical or positive viewpoint on rape management. If anything you want to use as a replacement example in rape, was treated LIKE rape, the same thing would happen. You yourself are highly dismissive of all rape culture, a New Zealand rape club is not any different than the western civilized world dude. Also your examples of rape in the civilized world aren't consistent or total. Listen, it may not be your bag but you would do well to read up and see exactly what rape culture is. Look at the small town rapes that have made headlines in the last 5 years, that town in Louisiana that vilified the 9 year old girl for instigating her gang bang? The football Maryland town that bent over backwards to excuse the rapists of any harm. Listen it's a problem and the thousands of really loud people freaking about about it are indicators of it being a real problem.

Robert Marrs:

neoontime:

Brian Tams:
Um... is anyone else getting a separate but equal vibe, or is it just me?

Nope, as you can see from all the people before you, it's not easy at all to HORRIBLY JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!

OT: Oh GOD! Really escapees, do we really have to confuse inclusiveness with reverse racism?! Just the thought of making an industry less White male focused is so much to get a negative reaction.

Thanks for reminding me the escapist is part of the internets so I should expect to see "responses" like this.

Uhhg, I apologize to the decent people who just held back the stupid remarks or those who said they where completely okay with for grouping you with them. I need a break!

Honestly though lets just say you take every person who really games as a hobby. Not including the family that owns a Wii and plays it on the weekends or the guy who plays angry birds on the way home from work but the type of gamers who actually go to these conventions. The people who are out buying the games day one, making videos of them etc who logically would be the people that the industry would focus on. Now take all those people put them in massive field and separate them by race and gender. If the group of white males is significantly larger than all the other groups is it really a bad thing that the industry chooses to focus on that group? I am all for being more inclusive but I don't think its wrong for the industry to focus on its probably well researched majority and I do think its understandable for the people who are happy in that setting to be against change. Going to a place where you are the minority and demanding change because you don't like some of those things they have been doing for years would usually result in people telling you "if you don't like it then fuck off somewhere else" and they would have a right to do it.

Just food for thought though, have you ever thought that the majority may be whitemale BECAUSE that is who most things are made for/catered to?

WWmelb:

Robert Marrs:

neoontime:

Nope, as you can see from all the people before you, it's not easy at all to HORRIBLY JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!

OT: Oh GOD! Really escapees, do we really have to confuse inclusiveness with reverse racism?! Just the thought of making an industry less White male focused is so much to get a negative reaction.

Thanks for reminding me the escapist is part of the internets so I should expect to see "responses" like this.

Uhhg, I apologize to the decent people who just held back the stupid remarks or those who said they where completely okay with for grouping you with them. I need a break!

Honestly though lets just say you take every person who really games as a hobby. Not including the family that owns a Wii and plays it on the weekends or the guy who plays angry birds on the way home from work but the type of gamers who actually go to these conventions. The people who are out buying the games day one, making videos of them etc who logically would be the people that the industry would focus on. Now take all those people put them in massive field and separate them by race and gender. If the group of white males is significantly larger than all the other groups is it really a bad thing that the industry chooses to focus on that group? I am all for being more inclusive but I don't think its wrong for the industry to focus on its probably well researched majority and I do think its understandable for the people who are happy in that setting to be against change. Going to a place where you are the minority and demanding change because you don't like some of those things they have been doing for years would usually result in people telling you "if you don't like it then fuck off somewhere else" and they would have a right to do it.

Just food for thought though, have you ever thought that the majority may be whitemale BECAUSE that is who most things are made for/catered to?

I think its more likely that the majority are white male because the majority of the population in areas that games sell the most are made up of white people. Its just math really. You would never see anyone criticize japanese gaming culture for being mostly focused on japanese/asian demographics would you?

This, to me, just seems like a space where you can hold up a sign that says "Ask me about issues pertaining to my minority! I have opinions!"

I don't see what the problem is.

What does everyone think about affirmative action passes?

It would seem that all the people who jumped to conclusions about these things being unnecessary, restrictive or downright oppressive, despite nothing in the text depicting them as such, are themselves not part of the listed minorities. Why, that is truly shocking and unexpected.

Duffy13 got it right.

Robert Marrs:

WWmelb:

Robert Marrs:

Honestly though lets just say you take every person who really games as a hobby. Not including the family that owns a Wii and plays it on the weekends or the guy who plays angry birds on the way home from work but the type of gamers who actually go to these conventions. The people who are out buying the games day one, making videos of them etc who logically would be the people that the industry would focus on. Now take all those people put them in massive field and separate them by race and gender. If the group of white males is significantly larger than all the other groups is it really a bad thing that the industry chooses to focus on that group? I am all for being more inclusive but I don't think its wrong for the industry to focus on its probably well researched majority and I do think its understandable for the people who are happy in that setting to be against change. Going to a place where you are the minority and demanding change because you don't like some of those things they have been doing for years would usually result in people telling you "if you don't like it then fuck off somewhere else" and they would have a right to do it.

Just food for thought though, have you ever thought that the majority may be whitemale BECAUSE that is who most things are made for/catered to?

I think its more likely that the majority are white male because the majority of the population in areas that games sell the most are made up of white people. Its just math really. You would never see anyone criticize japanese gaming culture for being mostly focused on japanese/asian demographics would you?

It might be both to a perpetual standpoint. Either way, expanding the culture beyond the market audience shouldn't be something to be upset about.

So utterly sick of this special treatment for this group and that group crap, it's pathetic. If you want equality, treat people equally, don't hand out special perks.

For all the bleating of the ingrained mega-lefties, this is just reverse racism, pure and simple. We have a wave of reverse snobbery sweeping the UK at the moment.

Got to love modern far left wing thought, bigotry is cool so long as you are bigoted against the right groups.

Res Plus:
So utterly sick of this extreme left wing special treatment for this group and that group crap, it's pathetic. If you want equality, treat people equally, don't hand out special perks.

Extreme. Yeah. Trying to reach out to those that have historically been ignored by mainstream media and are often made to feel unwelcome in numerous communities by a ingrained attitude that toxic and offensive rhetoric is acceptable, that's so left-wing extremist.

Obviously things are 100% equal now and no one, NO ONE, ever displays any level of prejudice any more. Plus it's certainly not the case that there is a vocal minority of gamers that create a hostile environment for others due to rampant racist or sexist language, a minority that would absolutely not be blithely dismissed by the majority as not a problem. Then that majority wouldn't ever possibly respond to efforts to foster diversity and tolerance in the gaming community with cold rejection or cynicism.

Yep, so glad I don't live in that world.

Fenrox Jackson:

So when it comes to rape you need sensitivity and understanding. When it comes to rape jokes you need a tremendous amount of understanding! Because you need to be able to subvert it. Rape jokes fail if they don't denounce the rape in some way, or if the butt of the joke is the victim.

That's just not true and shows a very narrow understanding of comedy (at least in regards to subjects you are invested in). One could make an surrealist joke where rape is treated in an inappropriately understanding fashion. One could make a dark, satirical joke where rape is used as the punchline for a jarring effect.
You could fill a room full of the greatest comedians of all time and even they wouldn't be able to reach a consensus on what constitutes an acceptable rape joke and what doesn't.
And that's because (in the case of comedy above all) context is key. What is abhorrent in one context is hilarious is another and setting arbitrary, sweeping rules is never going to work.

Fenrox Jackson:
Honestly, you are part of the problem if you can't see what the big deal on rape is. You should be able to empathize with people to the point of understanding their fear and pain, one way to do this is imagining if it happened to you. If you had a traumatic, violating experience that nobody will help you with or even believe you, and it starts to ruin all relationships you have and destroy your life, you will have the ability to reference it in a respectful way.

What if a lack of respect for the issue is the whole point of the joke?

Fenrox Jackson:
And this is the same with torture or murder, if you were affected by murder in a similar way you might not be cool with caviler murder in games. It's possible to do all this the right way but again, you need some really capable person that can hit all the right points.

So you're saying people shouldn't be allowed to make jokes about torture and murder?

OT:
Marketing 108: If you want more liberals to attend your event then change the name of "Information Points" to "Diversity Hubs."
Marketing 109: If you want more conservatives to attend your event then change the name of "Information Points" to "Networking Areas."

Stevepinto3:

Res Plus:
So utterly sick of this extreme left wing special treatment for this group and that group crap, it's pathetic. If you want equality, treat people equally, don't hand out special perks.

Extreme. Yeah. Trying to reach out to those that have historically been ignored by mainstream media and are often made to feel unwelcome in numerous communities by a ingrained attitude that toxic and offensive rhetoric is acceptable, that's so left-wing extremist.

Obviously things are 100% equal now and no one, NO ONE, ever displays any level of prejudice any more. Plus it's certainly not the case that there is a vocal minority of gamers that create a hostile environment for others due to rampant racist or sexist language, a minority that would absolutely not be blithely dismissed by the majority as not a problem. Then that majority wouldn't ever possibly respond to efforts to foster diversity and tolerance in the gaming community with cold rejection or cynicism.

Yep, so glad I don't live in that world.

Sorry, don't agree, creating unfair perks and special sections for this and that minority does nothing to "foster diversity" or "reach out" or whatever hatefully twee Orwellian pseudo-speech is employed to justify blatant reverse discrimination these days. I think it's utterly, utterly wrong. As for the majority "blithely dismissing the minority", the minority seems to be perfectly happy "blithely dismissing" the majority as "racist this", "sexist that" and "-ism the other"; and so we come fully circle: a tiny minority of left wing extremists are foisting their bullying creed on everyone, yet again. Great.

Edit - Mind you, at least they aren't trying to ban something or demand changes to someone else's art because of a "problematic subtext" that they will not doubt argue was put their "subconsciously" neatly sidestepping all chance of rebuttal. That's something I suppose.

Smeatza:

Fenrox Jackson:

So when it comes to rape you need sensitivity and understanding. When it comes to rape jokes you need a tremendous amount of understanding! Because you need to be able to subvert it. Rape jokes fail if they don't denounce the rape in some way, or if the butt of the joke is the victim.

That's just not true and shows a very narrow understanding of comedy (at least in regards to subjects you are invested in). One could make an surrealist joke where rape is treated in an inappropriately understanding fashion. One could make a dark, satirical joke where rape is used as the punchline for a jarring effect.
You could fill a room full of the greatest comedians of all time and even they wouldn't be able to reach a consensus on what constitutes an acceptable rape joke and what doesn't.
And that's because (in the case of comedy above all) context is key. What is abhorrent in one context is hilarious is another and setting arbitrary, sweeping rules is never going to work.

Fenrox Jackson:
Honestly, you are part of the problem if you can't see what the big deal on rape is. You should be able to empathize with people to the point of understanding their fear and pain, one way to do this is imagining if it happened to you. If you had a traumatic, violating experience that nobody will help you with or even believe you, and it starts to ruin all relationships you have and destroy your life, you will have the ability to reference it in a respectful way.

What if a lack of respect for the issue is the whole point of the joke?

Fenrox Jackson:
And this is the same with torture or murder, if you were affected by murder in a similar way you might not be cool with caviler murder in games. It's possible to do all this the right way but again, you need some really capable person that can hit all the right points.

So you're saying people shouldn't be allowed to make jokes about torture and murder?

OT:
Marketing 108: If you want more liberals to attend your event then change the name of "Information Points" to "Diversity Hubs."
Marketing 109: If you want more conservatives to attend your event then change the name of "Information Points" to "Networking Areas."

Dude, so yeah you can make bad jokes all you want and get roasted by people who hate your bad jokes. I don't understand what you are saying, comedy is nuanced? Yeah I know. You maybe didn't read my post, I'm saying that jokes fail if they are un-nuanced and terrible. A rape joke like "I raped that girl, she deserved it" is a bad joke. If the context is such that I was pretending to be some horrible person so that the joke is on me ala "haha, look how stupid he is" then the joke is more than just the quoted joke above. IE TWO THINGS, ONE BAD, NO MATTER THE CONTEXT, ONE (POTENTIALLY) GOOD DUE TO CONTEXT. Those are two different jokes! But yeah, to concede to your point, if you don't know how to draw you can decide to fail as an artist, go nuts.

Res Plus:

Stevepinto3:

Res Plus:
So utterly sick of this extreme left wing special treatment for this group and that group crap, it's pathetic. If you want equality, treat people equally, don't hand out special perks.

Extreme. Yeah. Trying to reach out to those that have historically been ignored by mainstream media and are often made to feel unwelcome in numerous communities by a ingrained attitude that toxic and offensive rhetoric is acceptable, that's so left-wing extremist.

Obviously things are 100% equal now and no one, NO ONE, ever displays any level of prejudice any more. Plus it's certainly not the case that there is a vocal minority of gamers that create a hostile environment for others due to rampant racist or sexist language, a minority that would absolutely not be blithely dismissed by the majority as not a problem. Then that majority wouldn't ever possibly respond to efforts to foster diversity and tolerance in the gaming community with cold rejection or cynicism.

Yep, so glad I don't live in that world.

Sorry, don't agree, creating unfair perks and special sections for this and that minority does nothing to "foster diversity" or "reach out" or whatever hatefully twee Orwellian pseudo-speech is employed to justify blatant reverse discrimination these days. I think it's utterly, utterly wrong. As for the majority "blithely dismissing the minority", the minority seems to be perfectly happy "blithely dismissing" the majority as "racist this", "sexist that" and "-ism the other"; and so we come fully circle: a tiny minority of left wing extremists are foisting their bullying creed on everyone, yet again. Great.

Edit - Mind you, at least they aren't trying to ban something or demand changes to someone else's art because of a "problematic subtext" that they will not doubt argue was put their "subconsciously" neatly sidestepping all chance of rebuttal. That's something I suppose.

So go to it and see what it is. Why does your fear of it mean it has to be removed? If you don't get anything from it, don't participate?

I'll tell you one thing when it comes to conventions. Conventions when it comes to enjoy a HOBBY does not have political crap. People go to a convention to enjoy their hobby, see upcoming games from developers, meet fans and network with people that have the same hobby and finally, enjoy some video games.

The pursuit of equality under the law meant that people did not need any sort of special place but instead be able to attain the same services just like any other person which in terms of business the law has no problem enforcing that.

It is also tragic that for all these groups who are shouting that they are somehow oppressed can't see right in front of their faces that their entire platform, lifestyle and ability to have these dedicated spaces often for FREE is because of the freedom and equality they actually have. But instead you will see them wallow in their own misery and be hostile to people(often strangers) because they choose to be offended and try and correct that person's behavior.

Res Plus:

Stevepinto3:

Res Plus:
So utterly sick of this extreme left wing special treatment for this group and that group crap, it's pathetic. If you want equality, treat people equally, don't hand out special perks.

Extreme. Yeah. Trying to reach out to those that have historically been ignored by mainstream media and are often made to feel unwelcome in numerous communities by a ingrained attitude that toxic and offensive rhetoric is acceptable, that's so left-wing extremist.

Obviously things are 100% equal now and no one, NO ONE, ever displays any level of prejudice any more. Plus it's certainly not the case that there is a vocal minority of gamers that create a hostile environment for others due to rampant racist or sexist language, a minority that would absolutely not be blithely dismissed by the majority as not a problem. Then that majority wouldn't ever possibly respond to efforts to foster diversity and tolerance in the gaming community with cold rejection or cynicism.

Yep, so glad I don't live in that world.

Sorry, don't agree, creating unfair perks and special sections for this and that minority does nothing to "foster diversity" or "reach out" or whatever hatefully twee Orwellian pseudo-speech is employed to justify blatant reverse discrimination these days. I think it's utterly, utterly wrong. As for the majority "blithely dismissing the minority", the minority seems to be perfectly happy "blithely dismissing" the majority as "racist this", "sexist that" and "-ism the other"; and so we come fully circle: a tiny minority of left wing extremists are foisting their bullying creed on everyone, yet again. Great.

Edit - Mind you, at least they aren't trying to ban something or demand changes to someone else's art because of a "problematic subtext" that they will not doubt argue was put their "subconsciously" neatly sidestepping all chance of rebuttal. That's something I suppose.

Reverse discrimination? So this is discrimination against, what, white people now? Straight white guys?

This isn't a zero-sum game. Just because PAX is making an effort to connect with women or LGBTQ people or whomever doesn't mean you are no longer welcome. No one is going to harass you at PAX because you're white. The expo is and always has been openly inviting to white men, if not often tailored specifically for them. Hell, most all western media has 18-35 year old white males as its target demographic. Practically all of our culture revolves around that perspective, and this whole topic has been about opening things up to allow other people to have some representation as something besides "the love interest" or "the black guy".

I mean what "unfair perks" are these people getting? An area where they can feel safe and talk about things that might matter to them? Because that's what any white dude has had at PAX pretty much all of the time. I'll agree with you that having such sections isn't desirable, but that's because it's an imperfect fix to a much larger societal problem, not because it's some kind of rights-stomping threat to liberty. I mean fucking "Orwellian"? Seriously? Do you have any sense of perspective at all?

Maybe I should give you a refresher in Orwell, because you seem confused. Orwell wrote about overreach of the state into individual's lives to the point where they had no legal right to talk about certain matters, and depicted societies forced into strict, uniform beliefs, ideals, and cultural perspectives. That is the exact OPPOSITE of what's happening here. This is about starting a conversation, not preventing one. It's about voluntarily trying to be better people, not forcing it on others. And it's about broadening one's own view by going out of the way to understand and learn from those different than yourself, not enforcing one belief and hating all others.

And yes, it seems a majority of gamers (or at least a significant number) tend to treat the issue of sexist/racist/homophobic online harassment as a non-issue. Go look up just about any story on the matter and I'll be damned if one of the first five comments isn't "Oh but that's just a vocal minority, why are we even talking about this?", followed by resounding agreement.

No one is being silenced if, say, they make a game with a white hetero male protagonist. No one is being censored, nor is anyone advocating censorship. We're not throwing in with Jack Thompson or Joseph Lieberman. No one called for Dragon's Crown or Soul Calibur to be banned. The conversation is NOT about taking things away from anyone, it's about raising awareness of the fact this creates an exclusionary environment for many people and taking steps to fix that of our own volition.

Robert Marrs:

WWmelb:

Robert Marrs:

Honestly though lets just say you take every person who really games as a hobby. Not including the family that owns a Wii and plays it on the weekends or the guy who plays angry birds on the way home from work but the type of gamers who actually go to these conventions. The people who are out buying the games day one, making videos of them etc who logically would be the people that the industry would focus on. Now take all those people put them in massive field and separate them by race and gender. If the group of white males is significantly larger than all the other groups is it really a bad thing that the industry chooses to focus on that group? I am all for being more inclusive but I don't think its wrong for the industry to focus on its probably well researched majority and I do think its understandable for the people who are happy in that setting to be against change. Going to a place where you are the minority and demanding change because you don't like some of those things they have been doing for years would usually result in people telling you "if you don't like it then fuck off somewhere else" and they would have a right to do it.

Just food for thought though, have you ever thought that the majority may be whitemale BECAUSE that is who most things are made for/catered to?

I think its more likely that the majority are white male because the majority of the population in areas that games sell the most are made up of white people. Its just math really. You would never see anyone criticize japanese gaming culture for being mostly focused on japanese/asian demographics would you?

If if the were solely focused on straight, male japanese demographic only, then yes, i certainly would criticize.

albino boo:
This sounds like horrible tokenism mixed with unpleasant authoritarianism at the same time. Its a very poor choice of words " Enforcers will be present in this safe zone to answer questions and report any instances of harassment." Makes the thing sound like some mafia operation, swapping enforcers for moderators would have been a better choice.

PAX has always referred to the security/helper staff as "enforcers"; it isn't a new term made up for this particular application.

Andrew_C:

Nooo, this is what happens when a couple of guys tell bad rape jokes, issue a non-apology, SELL MERCHANDISE BASED ON THE RAPE JOKE and then whine about being oppressed when there is a shit storm over the merchandise and they are forced to remove it.

Personally, the dickwolves joke was entirely about context. Rape was used as part of the joke, a part explicitly chosen because the fate described (being raped to sleep by dickwolves each night I believe) is obviously terrible. The punchline is that in spite of this egregious suffering happening around the player that they are easily in a position to stop, they don't bother because the quest doesn't call for any further aid to be rendered. The joke isn't about rape nor is it poking fun at rape; the joke is that accepted tropes in video games don't make the slightest bit of sense.

That said, you can choose to be offended by the joke if you must but you have no real basis for complaint beyond your own personal tastes. The joke itself was neither advocating nor marginalizing nor glorifying rape but rather a design conceit that has your "hero" ignoring people in obviously terrible situations.

To put it another way, they could swap the "raped to sleep" bit with some other version of "tortured to sleep" and the joke would remain the same and the basis for outrage would be just as tenuously valid. The catch there is rape doesn't need any explanation - we know that it is horrible and we know that it is generally a physically survivable ordeal. Any other torture would require an elaborate explanation which undermines any potential the joke has.

Ultimately, calling them out on the Dickwolves comment on the basis that it was "offensive" requires a fair explanation of why when, as I've pointed out, rape is used precisely because it's terrible. Hell, most of the controversy about the whole thing seems to be from events that happened later and at each step in the timeline, the only problem is that they responded to the complaints. It seems to me that the problem wasn't with the comic or the joke but rather that they kept poking the bear so to speak.

Eclectic Dreck:
...

I understand the context of the joke. If they had left it at that there wouldn't have much of an issue, but THEY chose to take it further.

What offended me in particular (and the cause of the whole shitstorm in general) was them selling Dickwolf themed merchandise. Creatures whose only characteristic is that they rape. Not "save the NPC's from Dickwolves" merchandise either, but "Team Dickwolves". In other words, rape themed merchandise, with an implicit approval of the act. If you don't understand why that is an issue, like some other people in this thread, then I don't know what more to say to you.

Andrew_C:

Eclectic Dreck:
...

I understand the context of the joke. If they had left it at that there wouldn't have much of an issue, but THEY chose to take it further.

What offended me in particular (and the cause of the whole shitstorm in general) was them selling Dickwolf themed merchandise. Creatures whose only characteristic is that they rape. Not "save the NPC's from Dickwolves" merchandise either, but "Team Dickwolves". In other words, rape themed merchandise, with an implicit approval of the act. If you don't understand why that is an issue, like some other people in this thread, then I don't know what more to say to you.

That part I do understand because, at that point, the joke became "Ha ha! You're offended by rape!".

Fenrox Jackson:

Res Plus:

Stevepinto3:

Extreme. Yeah. Trying to reach out to those that have historically been ignored by mainstream media and are often made to feel unwelcome in numerous communities by a ingrained attitude that toxic and offensive rhetoric is acceptable, that's so left-wing extremist.

Obviously things are 100% equal now and no one, NO ONE, ever displays any level of prejudice any more. Plus it's certainly not the case that there is a vocal minority of gamers that create a hostile environment for others due to rampant racist or sexist language, a minority that would absolutely not be blithely dismissed by the majority as not a problem. Then that majority wouldn't ever possibly respond to efforts to foster diversity and tolerance in the gaming community with cold rejection or cynicism.

Yep, so glad I don't live in that world.

Sorry, don't agree, creating unfair perks and special sections for this and that minority does nothing to "foster diversity" or "reach out" or whatever hatefully twee Orwellian pseudo-speech is employed to justify blatant reverse discrimination these days. I think it's utterly, utterly wrong. As for the majority "blithely dismissing the minority", the minority seems to be perfectly happy "blithely dismissing" the majority as "racist this", "sexist that" and "-ism the other"; and so we come fully circle: a tiny minority of left wing extremists are foisting their bullying creed on everyone, yet again. Great.

Edit - Mind you, at least they aren't trying to ban something or demand changes to someone else's art because of a "problematic subtext" that they will not doubt argue was put their "subconsciously" neatly sidestepping all chance of rebuttal. That's something I suppose.

So go to it and see what it is. Why does your fear of it mean it has to be removed? If you don't get anything from it, don't participate?

Ha ha, "fear", I do love the left wing lexicon employed to justify these things and to belittle and patronise all dissent. I am not scared, I am annoyed.

Seneschal:
It would seem that all the people who jumped to conclusions about these things being unnecessary, restrictive or downright oppressive, despite nothing in the text depicting them as such, are themselves not part of the listed minorities. Why, that is truly shocking and unexpected.

Duffy13 got it right.

Yes, he did.

I feel tempted to respond to a few things said here myself, but it's just of no use to engage in discussions with people like Res Plus, who can't manage to write down a single sentence that isn't full of hyperbole, diatribes and barely-fitting buzzwords.

Fenrox Jackson:

So, you are wrong, you don't appear to want to have any discussion on the matter so I don't know how to help you. You say that murder gave your bf's dad ptsd, well I think that is made up. PTSD is a myth perpetrated by whiny people that just get off on lying. He has never seen battle and sure you could cherry pick some elements from the 3rd world where murder caused PTSD.

Wow. Just wow.

Are you for fucking real?

Fenrox Jackson:

Dude, so yeah you can make bad jokes all you want and get roasted by people who hate your bad jokes.

I don't recall ever being criticised for making insensitive or inappropriate jokes, perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Fenrox Jackson:
I don't understand what you are saying, comedy is nuanced? Yeah I know. You maybe didn't read my post, I'm saying that jokes fail if they are un-nuanced and terrible.

What you wrote (word for word) was "Rape jokes fail if they don't denounce the rape in some way, or if the butt of the joke is the victim." I was pointing out that isn't always the case.

Fenrox Jackson:
A rape joke like "I raped that girl, she deserved it" is a bad joke. If the context is such that I was pretending to be some horrible person so that the joke is on me ala "haha, look how stupid he is" then the joke is more than just the quoted joke above.

But the criteria you listed covers much more than that single joke.

Fenrox Jackson:
IE TWO THINGS, ONE BAD, NO MATTER THE CONTEXT, ONE (POTENTIALLY) GOOD DUE TO CONTEXT. Those are two different jokes! But yeah, to concede to your point, if you don't know how to draw you can decide to fail as an artist, go nuts.

You would have done well to make that distinction the first time around rather than setting a sweeping, arbitrary criteria.

Can't wait until I've moved out to BC and can then maybe find the time and money to get down to a PAX event. Stuck out in the middle of Canada, it's always cost way too much to go to anything.

I really hope developers take these rooms seriously and do have sit-downs with the other people who buy their games. It would be very good for them to actually hear what people of all different backgrounds have to say about the industry. Especially after learning what Naughty Dog had to deal with in focus testing. Hopefully things will start to change.

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